Competitiveness of surgical residency programs

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So @lazers -- What ARE the most competitive specialties if they're not Plastics, ENT, Urology & Ortho ?

Honestly no specialty is "super competitive". As far as I know anyone who puts in a decent amount of work in medschool and hasn't done poorly on their boards could match into any field they want, including derm.

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Honestly no specialty is "super competitive". As far as I know anyone who puts in a decent amount of work in medschool and hasn't done poorly on their boards could match into any field they want, including derm.

The issue is that you are using a different definition of "competitive" compared to everyone else. You are basing competitiveness off of whether people who meet the standards can match. Everyone else is basing it off of whether or not the majority of people can meet the standards in the first place. When talking about matching into a specialty your definition is not the accepted one.
 
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The issue is that you are using a different definition of "competitive" compared to everyone else. You are basing competitiveness off of whether people who meet the standards can match. Everyone else is basing it off of whether or not the majority of people can meet the standards in the first place. When talking about matching into a specialty your definition is not the accepted one.

See this is where I disagree. I believe that the majority of medical students do meet the standards and could match, if they wanted, to these fields.
 
See this is where I disagree. I believe that the majority of medical students do meet the standards and could match if they wanted to into these fields.

Okay... take Integrated Plastics. You believe the majority of medical students' actual applications meet the USMLE, class rank, research requirements that programs have? Or do you mean you believe the majority of medical students have the potential to meet those requirements if they worked hard enough? One statement is easily refuted by looking at applicant data. The other is a nice, optimistic, wholly unrealistic outlook on life and residency applications.
 
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When your board scores need to be in the top 25% just to be average, the majority of medical students do not meet the standards and cannot match to those fields. Facts don't really care what you believe
 
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See this is where I disagree. I believe that the majority of medical students do meet the standards and could match, if they wanted, to these fields.

See, this kind of post is helpful. You should have started with this so we would realize why you're wrong from the beginning, rather than be left wondering.
 
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See this is where I disagree. I believe that the majority of medical students do meet the standards and could match, if they wanted, to these fields.

You're out of touch with reality in that regard.
 
Honestly no specialty is "super competitive". As far as I know anyone who puts in a decent amount of work in medschool and hasn't done poorly on their boards could match into any field they want, including derm.

That same type of logic could be applied to anything. Anyone can become a billionaire they just need to put a decent amount of effort towards their business. How could the majority of med students match into residencies that have 150-250 spots available when there are going to be 20,000 + graduating USMD students in 2019. Not everyone can publish 5+ papers in these fields without putting serious effort into it, while staying on top of all the BS you have to put up with in MS these days. Got to the ENT forums you'll see it takes way more then just a 250+ step score, honors, AOA to get into the field. A summer research stint about diabetes doesn't cover it these days.
 
That same type of logic could be applied to anything. Anyone can become a billionaire they just need to put a decent amount of effort towards their business. How could the majority of med students match into residencies that have 150-250 spots available when there are going to be 20,000 + graduating USMD students in 2019. Not everyone can publish 5+ papers in these fields without putting serious effort into it, while staying on top of all the BS you have to put up with in MS these days. Got to the ENT forums you'll see it takes way more then just a 250+ step score, honors, AOA to get into the field. A summer research stint about diabetes doesn't cover it these days.

We can agree to disagree. Becoming a billionaire, or even having a networth of > 20million is highly competitive, and probably unattainable for most in medicine even if they put the work in. Landing a residency in ENT or any other specialty is no where near unattainable for the majority of medstudents who put the work in.
 
Honestly no specialty is "super competitive". As far as I know anyone who puts in a decent amount of work in medschool and hasn't done poorly on their boards could match into any field they want, including derm.
See this is where I disagree. I believe that the majority of medical students do meet the standards and could match, if they wanted, to these fields.

You're that uncle at every thanksgiving dinner table who ends every insane, conspiracy theory filled argument about current events with "well this is my opinion and I'm entitled to it" aren't you?
 
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You're that uncle at every thanksgiving dinner table who ends every insane, conspiracy theory filled argument about current events with "well this is my opinion and I'm entitled to it" aren't you?

This made me LOL.
 
Landing a residency in ENT or any other specialty is no where near unattainable for the majority of medstudents who put the work in.

This isn't an "agree to disagree" situation. Your definition of competitiveness is wrong and if you are advising medical students you could be actually doing harm. Saying something is "mildly competitive" when you actually mean it's "mildly competitive for those with strong applications" could give someone the wrong idea about where they stand as an applicant. Hopefully they have other resources to turn to.
 
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We can agree to disagree. Becoming a billionaire, or even having a networth of > 20million is highly competitive, and probably unattainable for most in medicine even if they put the work in. Landing a residency in ENT or any other specialty is no where near unattainable for the majority of medstudents who put the work in.

You don't understand what the word competitive means. And even if you did, you are completely wrong. I know plenty of people with great board scores, top notch transcript, aoa, publications, etc. who didn't match in the field that they wanted. This happens in derm, uro, ent, ophtho, ortho, etc. There are so many excellent candidates who put the work in and don't make it because it's so competitive.
 
We can agree to disagree. Becoming a billionaire, or even having a networth of > 20million is highly competitive, and probably unattainable for most in medicine even if they put the work in. Landing a residency in ENT or any other specialty is no where near unattainable for the majority of medstudents who put the work in.

1. That wasn't what you originally said
2. It's still not true

As an attending you probably don't hear this too often, but you're wrong. Totally completely wrong. Accept it and learn from it rather than flailing around trying to justify your utterly bogus statement.
 
He did say 'the majority' -- so 50% plus 1... But tell that to the 20 - 25% of med students who, while being in the top quarter of their class and having well-above-average board scores - still fail to match. What happens to them?
 
He did say 'the majority' -- so 50% plus 1... But tell that to the 20 - 25% of med students who, while being in the top quarter of their class and having well-above-average board scores - still fail to match. What happens to them?

Not a single one of the students I've known has been unable to match into a surgical residency that they desired. I had one student who tried to match into Derm but wasn't able to.

Ok and some evidence to back this up:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

The median step 1 score was 241 at my school. With this score, 98% of ppl who wanted to, were able to match into general surgery. I'm almost sure 2% of applicants have some sort of geographical restriction that caused them to not apply broadly. So if you scored the average USMLE score at my school you had a 100% chance of matching. On what planet is that considered competitive?
 
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Not a single one of the students I've known has been unable to match into a surgical residency that they desired. I had one student who tried to match into Derm but wasn't able to.

Ok and some evidence to back this up:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

The median step 1 score was 241 at my school. With this score, 98% of ppl who wanted to, were able to match into general surgery. I'm almost sure 2% of applicants have some sort of geographical restriction that caused them to not apply broadly. So if you scored the average USMLE score at my school you had a 100% chance of matching. On what planet is that considered competitive?


Wut. This does not take into account the huge swaths of students who were discouraged from attempting to apply in the first place. Kinda like how the Caribbean inflates their match statistics by kicking out poorly performing students or makes them take a "qualifying" test before being allowed to take Step 1.
 
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This isn't an "agree to disagree" situation. Your definition of competitiveness is wrong and if you are advising medical students you could be actually doing harm. Saying something is "mildly competitive" when you actually mean it's "mildly competitive for those with strong applications" could give someone the wrong idea about where they stand as an applicant. Hopefully they have other resources to turn to.

There was a guy from my school who failed to match Urology and didn't apply to a backup cause some idiot faculty member (probably an old fart so far removed from the match process) told him he was very competitive...with a mid 230s step...

He scrambled to a community IM program in flyover territory as a result. Just tragic.
 
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I'm saying anyone who scored the median USMLE score at my school per the matching outcomes has a >98% shot of matching.
 
There was a guy from my school who failed to match Urology and didn't apply to a backup cause some idiot faculty member (probably an old fart so far removed from the match process) told him he was very competitive...with a mid 230s step...

He scrambled to a community IM program in flyover territory as a result. Just tragic.

There will always be that exception that didn't match. I'm talking about the far majority, not the few exceptions.
 
I'm saying anyone who scored the median USMLE score at my school per the matching outcomes has a >98% shot of matching.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the other claims you've made on this thread.
 
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For your "mildly" competitive example of ENT, even with a median or above USMLE, US MD students have a 20% chance of not matching.

Source: actual national data, not your inane anecdotes

How is a >80% match rate considered uber-competitive? According to what I consider competitive, if 4 of every 5 people, who have the average score are able to attain it, it is not considered competitive.
 
I'm honestly done with this conversation. I think the problem lies that you guys/gals try to think what you want to be, or are, is super competitive, when in-fact, it's not. Sorry to burst your bubble and a good day to you all.
 
Why are you so invested in being wrong? It should tell you something when every single person disagrees with you. Pretty much every field you say is not competitive is more competitive than rad onc, which you should know something about.
 
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I'm honestly done with this conversation. I think the problem lies that you guys/gals try to think what you want to be, or are, is super competitive, when in-fact, it's not. Sorry to burst your bubble and a good day to you all.

I've never seen anyone so proud of being 100% wrong and not seem to realize it.

Bye Felicia.
 
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I'm honestly done with this conversation. I think the problem lies that you guys/gals try to think what you want to be, or are, is super competitive, when in-fact, it's not. Sorry to burst your bubble and a good day to you all.

I'm an OB/GYN. Tell me again how I want to believe what I do is super competitive?? Or are you going to add another after-the-fact caveat to what you said? Come on man, you should have grown out of the inability to admit when you are wrong by now.

Think of the kids. Literally. How can you say "ENT is mildly competitive" on a forum that has readers from all levels and tiers of schools who come here to learn about the process, when what you mean is that YOUR students tend to match well. My med school class had a freaking Plastics/ENT couples match who got their #1. Doesn't mean I'm going around telling everybody it's not competitive. Have some common sense.
 
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I'm saying they have the average USMLE score at my school. That takes the self selection out.

I think one of the key points that refutes your argument is that the average UNmatched ENT applicant's Step score is your school's average. So yes, overall 25% of the people who apply to ENT meet your school's median step score and still fail to match. There are similar stories in ortho/uro/plastics as well. For me, the unmatched applicants' stats are a much better marker of competitiveness than the overall match rate which has too many confounders to be useful.
 
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Lazers thinks that any endeavor where >80% of self-selected people attain success is not competitive. A better definition of competitive would be 1) relative to other options, and 2) student-centered.

First, the major surgical subspecialties (neurosurg, ortho, ENT, plastics) are more competitive relative to the average of other specialties based not only on match rate, but also metrics of achievement such as board scores, research abstracts/publications, grades/AOA. Vascular surgery and general surgery are less competitive.

Second, imagine you have a student who is the average ENT applicant who has a Step 1 score of 245 and 4 research experiences resulting in 6 abstracts/presentations/publications. She has mostly Honors grades but just missed out on AOA. She has had dreams of becoming an ENT since day 1 of medical school. She will be applying to ENT and has no plans to apply to a backup specialty. She has >20% chance of going unmatched. You are her advisor, and she has come to you for advice about what programs to apply to, how many programs to apply to, whether to do away rotations, etc. Are you going to start off by telling her, don't worry, the process will be uncompetitive?

When we say a specialty is competitive, we make this classification as a warning, and we adopt the view that going unmatched is a Really Bad outcome that should be avoided or anticipated. Saying a 20% unmatched rate is no big deal reveals a severe disconnect with the experiences of students who find themselves in that position.
 
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I'm an OB/GYN. Tell me again how I want to believe what I do is super competitive?? Or are you going to add another after-the-fact caveat to what you said? Come on man, you should have grown out of the inability to admit when you are wrong by now.

Think of the kids. Literally. How can you say "ENT is mildly competitive" on a forum that has readers from all levels and tiers of schools who come here to learn about the process, when what you mean is that YOUR students tend to match well. My med school class had a freaking Plastics/ENT couples match who got their #1. Doesn't mean I'm going around telling everybody it's not competitive. Have some common sense.

Yea, and med/peds here... Don't exactly have a stake in the ego game here
 
your school has a median of 241. Mine has a median of 231. There's a big difference there my friend.
Even in schools whose median Step 1 score is 241, there will still be self-selection at play. All schools have self-selection even if it is being too scared to apply.Although if you have a 231 at a top tier school, you still have very much a fighting chance. Lazers is setting the starting point being the beginning of 4th year when all the filtering has already happened and saying if you didn't reach that stage it is because you didn't work hard enough.
 
Misrepresenting your credentials is a violation of the TOS. I doubt someone that tone deaf is in a position to advise medical students.
 
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As a radiation oncologist, he should definitely know a thing or 2 about competitiveness...
 
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