Concering Ephedra

[Aznfarmerboi]

Its back in the market, just go into any GNC stores and ask for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra
Uses and health concerns

Ephedra distachyaThese plants have traditionally been used by indigenous people for a variety of medicinal purposes, and are a likely candidate for the Soma plant of Indo-Iranian religion. The alkaloids ephedrine and pseudoephedrine are the active constituents of the plant. Some species in the Ephedra genus have zero alkaloid content and are therefore essentially inert, however the most commonly used species, E. sinica, has a total alkaloid content of 1-3% by dry weight. Ephedrine constitues 40-90% of the alkaloid content, with the remainder consisting of pseudoephedrine and the demethylated forms of each [1]. Ephedrine is considered a performance-enhancing drug and is prohibited in most competitive sports.

Beginning in the 1990s, concerns about the safety of Ephedra and Ephedra-based products began to be publicly raised. As Ephedra is a herb, products containing it were marketed as dietary supplements and therefore were exempt from FDA regulation in the United States. Ephedra was found in many popular weight control products, some of which the FDA believed may be hazardous. Sympathomimetic amines such as ephedrine raise heart rate and blood pressure and can be particularly hazardous to those with pre-existing cardiac problems.

According to the FDA, 155 deaths can be blamed on Ephedra, most of them related to cardiac problems and strokes. However, many advocates of Ephedra maintain that it is safe when used as directed, and continue to regard it as a dietary supplement rather than as a drug. Critics maintain, however, that there is anecdotal evidence that the use of Ephedra can cause tolerance and dependence. Health food store GNC banned ephedra-containing products in June 2003, and the National Football League banned players from using it as a dietary supplement in 2001.

On December 30, 2003, the US Food and Drug Administration announced a ban (effective from 12 April 2004) on the uncontrolled sale of supplement products containing Ephedra, citing "an unreasonable risk of illness or injury" from the use of the drug. Synthetic ephedrine is still available as an ingredient in some over the counter (OTC) medications that are clearly labeled in accordance with FDA regulations. Bulk ephedra herb (such as that used in traditional Chinese medicine) not specifically marketed for human consumption is not under the jurisdiction of the FDA and is therefore unaffected. Several states have enacted their own laws regarding the sale of ephedra and ephedra-based products, some stricter than the non-statutory FDA regulation.

On 14 April 2005, this ban was struck down on procedural grounds by Utah federal judge Tena Campbell [2]. However, as of July 2005, diet supplement manufacturers, including the very company that challenged the ephedra ban in court, are still reluctant to reintroduce ephedra into their product lines.

In the 1994 FIFA World Cup, the Argentine footballer Diego Armando Maradona tested positive for ephedrine in a doping control for using one dietary supplement product containing the substance.

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[Moxxie]

Thanks for the info, Aznfarmerboi! This is very interesting, if a little troubling. (Oh and thanks Bananaface - I agree that the previous thread should have been closed).

 

[bananaface]

No problem 🙂

 

[sdn1977]

Thanks for the info! How troubling.....we can't keep this off the market, but we worry about pseudoephedrine & meth production! What a society!

 

[BiOGoly]

Its back in the market, just go into any GNC stores and ask for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra

On 14 April 2005, this ban was struck down on procedural grounds by Utah federal judge Tena Campbell [2]. However, as of July 2005, diet supplement manufacturers, including the very company that challenged the ephedra ban in court, are still reluctant to reintroduce ephedra into their product lines.

In other news: Toxic meth lab soon coming to a trailer park near you!

Organic chemistry is fun!

 

[28657]

About a month ago I saw some kiosk in the mall that was selling a weight loss supplement containing Ma Huang. So I talked to the sales person and asked how they can sell it (I was thinking it was illegal) and she said, "How can it be illegal...they sell it on the internet!?" Well, isn't that the most brilliant answer I could have asked for? 🙂

Anyway...being the inquisitive person that I am...I went to Google to find the real answer. 😉 According to the FDA website, ephedra and ephedra-like substances are still banned. Just last month they seized a product that contained ephedrine alkaloids. Even if you can buy the product doesn't mean it's "legal" and just because one judge in Utah (who I'm sure got paid off by my former employer Nutraceutical) rules against the ban, doesn't mean it's "legal".

 

[MAXHARDC]

It's ironic that the ban on ephedra containing supplements has likely driven people away from relatively safe thermogenics like the E/C stack to much more toxic agents like clenbuterol/DNP. I will stick with things like ephedrine and forskolin/green tea.

If you ask me, the dangers of the possibility of getting BPH pale in comparison with cardiac myocyte cell death! Has anyone ever croaked from BPH, which is easily prevented with anything from Permixon, to Flomax, to dutasteride? I can adjust the ephedrine dosage so I lose weight and still don't get BPH. And I am prone to BPH, having suffered with it for years, on and off. I value my heart much more than my prostate anyway.

In any case, as I mentioned, if ephedrine is not your cup of tea there are numerous other effective thermogenics like forskolin and green tea that are actually healthful, especially green tea.

I find it hard to find much positive to say about clen.

It's thought that the alpha 1 receptor subtype that is responsible for contributing to prostatic hypertrophy is alpha 1a. Flomax has a much higher binding affinity to this receptor than does norephedrine, so I suspect if you were taking Flomax, you could also take yohimbine since the Flomax should in theory block norephedrine binding. I would still avoid ephedrine though because it is a direct alpha agonist, as well as one that acts indirectly by stimulating norephedrine release. I don't know how the relative binding affinities of ephedrine and Flomax compare.

If you want a non-banned stimulant pre-event try

200 mg caffeine
1-3 grams l-tyrosine
a small amount of carbs

30-60 minutes before. You'll most likely be vibrating.

Easily equal to the ephedrine/caffeine stack but you won't fail a drug test.

 

[npage148]

If you want a non-banned stimulant pre-event try

200 mg caffeine
1-3 grams l-tyrosine
a small amount of carbs

30-60 minutes before. You'll most likely be vibrating.

Easily equal to the ephedrine/caffeine stack but you won't fail a drug test.

Actually with that caffine dose, you will fail a Olympic/NCAA drug test, so it is effectivly banned.

 

[MAXHARDC]

Npage,

Hence the timing of 30-60 min.

For caffeine, the definition of a positive is a concentration in urine greater than 12 micrograms per millilitre.


Max

 

[WSU2007]

The original post stated that a Federal Judge in Utah struck down the FDA ban on Ephedra (Ma Huang), I also heard of that but don't reallt know what that means. Does it mean it is legal to sell in Utha?? How does this impact selling over the internet??

Just a side note to all those who work in a pharmacy: You can purchase ephedrine right now in your local pharmacy. It is processed ephedra and is sold as Primatene tablets and Bronk-Aid tablets. It is in combination with guafenisin and is an OTC remedy for asthma. The ban on ephedra and ephedrine only pertained to being sold or contained in a dietary supplement not in an approved OTC medication. I'm guessing some may not be aware of this or maybe you are.

 

[MAXHARDC]

The original post stated that a Federal Judge in Utah struck down the FDA ban on Ephedra (Ma Huang), I also heard of that but don't reallt know what that means. Does it mean it is legal to sell in Utha?? How does this impact selling over the internet??

Just a side note to all those who work in a pharmacy: You can purchase ephedrine right now in your local pharmacy. It is processed ephedra and is sold as Primatene tablets and Bronk-Aid tablets. It is in combination with guafenisin and is an OTC remedy for asthma. The ban on ephedra and ephedrine only pertained to being sold or contained in a dietary supplement not in an approved OTC medication. I'm guessing some may not be aware of this or maybe you are.

WSU,

The ban only covers the herb, not the synthetic version.

The synthetic version is considered a drug, and as such does not fall under the category of dietary supplement.

Consequently, FDA has determined that synthetic ephedrine alkaloids are not "dietary ingredients" as defined in the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act [the Act, Section 201(ff)(1)].

Therefore, products containing synthetic ephedrine alkaloids do not fall under the dietary supplement regulatory scheme

Max

 

[WSU2007]

Cool, I thought that is what I said. 🙂

WSU,

The ban only covers the herb, not the synthetic version.

The synthetic version is considered a drug, and as such does not fall under the category of dietary supplement.

Consequently, FDA has determined that synthetic ephedrine alkaloids are not "dietary ingredients" as defined in the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act [the Act, Section 201(ff)(1)].

Therefore, products containing synthetic ephedrine alkaloids do not fall under the dietary supplement regulatory scheme

Max

 

[MAXHARDC]

Cool, I thought that is what I said. 🙂

WSU,

Yep 🙂

The bottom line for you folks who want to experiment with it, be my guest. I think the future of "true" fat loss agents are dopaminergic drugs.

If you quit using any thermogenic drug (and don't change eating or activity), you gain weight right back to where you were.

So you take the EC stack and that increases energy expenditure and fat burning. Over time you lose fat, leptin drops, the VMH notices it and adjusts metabolism just like it would if you lost fat with any other method. Eventually, the EC is no longer having an additive effect, it's maintenance only. That is, say EC boosts metabolism by 10% over normal (defined as 100%). So for a while you have a metabolism of 110%. As you lose fat, the body adjusts normal metabolism downwards (reducing normal SNS output). Once it gets to 90%, the same 10% boost from EC is only putting you at 100%. You're back in balance. Of course, if you stop taking EC, you're metabolism is now at 90%: time for the post diet rebound (unless you adjust food or activity to compensate).

Exercise does the same thing. Initially it adds to your daily total energy expenditure but as you lose weight and BMR and the rest go down, eventually you get right back to balance. You reach a new stable bodyweight that was lower before exercise. You would be expected to maintain this new weight as long as you changed nothing else. Stop exercising and you'll return to your old weight (assuming eating behavior didn't change).

This looks to be why main weight loss drugs stop working: as the body adjusts metabolism downward (and appetite/hunger upwards), the drug is no longer having an additive effect, it's simply acting at replacement levels. A rat study looked at this, looked at the weight loss from sibutramine only compared to leptin only to sibutramine + leptin at a dose to keep levels stable. The leptin only group saw little, the sibutramine group saw a weight loss and then a plateau as metabolic rate adjusted, the sibutramine + replacement leptin kept losing weight. Why? Because the little rat brain was getting a false signal from the leptin injection that things were still normal: no metabolic adjustment, sibutramine keeps having an additive effect.

It's still not going to cause the brain to ever spontaneously autocorrect to the lowered levels of input signals. Such interventions only fix the problem as long as you use them.

As per my PM on this subject,(and then it's time to watch Buffy), folks who lower bodyfat and keep it below setpoint for extended periods are simply maintaining those behaviors (reduced food intake, increased activity, drugs) in the long-term (let's say forever). The body isn't going to autocorrect to the problem.

Max

 

[28657]

WSU,

The ban only covers the herb, not the synthetic version.

The synthetic version is considered a drug, and as such does not fall under the category of dietary supplement.

Consequently, FDA has determined that synthetic ephedrine alkaloids are not "dietary ingredients" as defined in the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act [the Act, Section 201(ff)(1)].

Therefore, products containing synthetic ephedrine alkaloids do not fall under the dietary supplement regulatory scheme

Max

I just LOVE it when people try to push propaganda without stating facts or sources. Since when is the "herb" banned but the "ephedrine alkaloids" aren't banned. I'm getting my information from the FDA....ever heard of them?

January 12, 2006 - At the request of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Pennsylvania filed a Complaint for Forfeiture against Lipodrene, a dietary supplement that contains ephedrine alkaloids. The U.S. Marshals, today, seized the dietary supplement Lipodrene.

 

[MAXHARDC]

I just LOVE it when people try to push propaganda without stating facts or sources. Since when is the "herb" banned but the "ephedrine alkaloids" aren't banned. I'm getting my information from the FDA....ever heard of them?

January 12, 2006 - At the request of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Pennsylvania filed a Complaint for Forfeiture against Lipodrene, a dietary supplement that contains ephedrine alkaloids. The U.S. Marshals, today, seized the dietary supplement Lipodrene.

Amanda,

Me spilling Propaganda, please say it aint so!

Thats what I already pasted to you. It says the herb ephedra, which is contained form of ephedrine alkaloids. As I said, drugs containing ephedrine hcl such as OTC cold medicine and Vaspro ephedrine will not be effected since it is a drug and not a dietary supplement. Big difference.

The proof is here:
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWE...1/ANS01114.html

As to your other post, the FDA seized a product labeled as a dietary supplement but contained the drug ephedrine hcl.

Ephedrine HCL cannot be sold in dietary supplements. It never has been, only the herb ephedra standardized for ephedrine alkaloids, which is not the same as ephedrine HCL.

Hope that clears it up.

Max

 

[28657]

Amanda,

Me spilling Propaganda, please say it aint so!

Thats what I already pasted to you. It says the herb ephedra, which is contained form of ephedrine alkaloids. As I said, drugs containing ephedrine hcl such as OTC cold medicine and Vaspro ephedrine will not be effected since it is a drug and not a dietary supplement. Big difference.

The proof is here:
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWE...1/ANS01114.html

As to your other post, the FDA seized a product labeled as a dietary supplement but contained the drug ephedrine hcl.

Ephedrine HCL cannot be sold in dietary supplements. It never has been, only the herb ephedra standardized for ephedrine alkaloids, which is not the same as ephedrine HCL.

Hope that clears it up.

Max

Nope not clear to me yet, I think you've mananged to further muddle this issue. And you pasted a dead link.

The product the FDA seized was labeled as a dietary supplement but contained ephedrine alkaloids (the herb) NOT the synthetic Ephedrine HCl.

I think you are misunderstanding my point...so let me spell it out for ya:
1. Ephedra in any form (herb, synthetic) is illegal as a dietary supplement.
2. Ephedrine HCl (synthetic) is legal in OTC medications for bronchodilation.

So if you need to lose weight as badly as you make it sound...good luck with the Primatene tablets, as that would be the only "legal" way to purchase ephedra.

 

[MAXHARDC]

Nope not clear to me yet, I think you've mananged to further muddle this issue. And you pasted a dead link.

The product the FDA seized was labeled as a dietary supplement but contained ephedrine alkaloids (the herb) NOT the synthetic Ephedrine HCl.

I think you are misunderstanding my point...so let me spell it out for ya:
1. Ephedra in any form (herb, synthetic) is illegal as a dietary supplement.
2. Ephedrine HCl (synthetic) is legal in OTC medications for bronchodilation.

So if you need to lose weight as badly as you make it sound...good luck with the Primatene tablets, as that would be the only "legal" way to purchase ephedra.

Lipoxrene was the one that had the Ephedrine HCL, mixed that with Lipodrene 🙂 But you proved my point🙂

The point I'm making is that the HCl (hydrochloric acid) is a synthetic product, not derived from the herbal version. Since the FDA classifies ephedrine HCl as a synthetic drug, and not an herbal supplement, it doesn't fall under the current ban.

I dont see how this further "muddles this issue" at hand.

Ephedra was nice to have around for several reasons (putting aside a potential block to a supplement witchunt snowball effect). Some of the herbal EC stack formulations were quite nice, and relatively inexpensive.

At least they provided consumers with effective products, for the main part. It didn't take a genius to slap together an EC stack (unless one has super smart scientists as company consultants). The industry as a whole lost a lot of money and interest during the ephedra ordeal, during and after.

Synthetic EHCL is more expensive now, at least the products being sold which were offered to people looking for ephedrine as a supplement. And I don't want to hear any #$%* about sites selling pure EHCL - EHCL is nice, if available, but it takes a thorough ***** to go out of the way and provide sensitive information to these companies just for some E.

The OTC versions aren't cheap, either. Vasopro lowered the number of tablets in each bottle (60 to 48, unless I'm not up-to-date), surely for a reason.

Not that any of this matters.

People on other forums haven't figured this out:

Ephedra was effectively removed from the market, cleverly at that, due to the publicity. More people blamed ephedra for their problems, exposes surely encouraged it (or the connection at least, especially when the FDA is on your side), and insurance rates went up. Ephedra was no longer profitable.

That will not change, regardless.

Plus, it left the question of the DSHEA's value, and the what would consistute an "adverse effect" - and how an "adverse effect" would be objectively evaluated in reportings- up in the air.

Max

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

WSU,

If you quit using any thermogenic drug (and don't change eating or activity), you gain weight right back to where you were.

So you take the EC stack and that increases energy expenditure and fat burning. Over time you lose fat, leptin drops, the VMH notices it and adjusts metabolism just like it would if you lost fat with any other method. Eventually, the EC is no longer having an additive effect, it's maintenance only. That is, say EC boosts metabolism by 10% over normal (defined as 100%). So for a while you have a metabolism of 110%. As you lose fat, the body adjusts normal metabolism downwards (reducing normal SNS output). Once it gets to 90%, the same 10% boost from EC is only putting you at 100%. You're back in balance. Of course, if you stop taking EC, you're metabolism is now at 90%: time for the post diet rebound (unless you adjust food or activity to compensate).

Exercise does the same thing. Initially it adds to your daily total energy expenditure but as you lose weight and BMR and the rest go down, eventually you get right back to balance. You reach a new stable bodyweight that was lower before exercise. You would be expected to maintain this new weight as long as you changed nothing else. Stop exercising and you'll return to your old weight (assuming eating behavior didn't change).

This looks to be why main weight loss drugs stop working: as the body adjusts metabolism downward (and appetite/hunger upwards), the drug is no longer having an additive effect, it's simply acting at replacement levels. A rat study looked at this, looked at the weight loss from sibutramine only compared to leptin only to sibutramine + leptin at a dose to keep levels stable. The leptin only group saw little, the sibutramine group saw a weight loss and then a plateau as metabolic rate adjusted, the sibutramine + replacement leptin kept losing weight. Why? Because the little rat brain was getting a false signal from the leptin injection that things were still normal: no metabolic adjustment, sibutramine keeps having an additive effect.

It's still not going to cause the brain to ever spontaneously autocorrect to the lowered levels of input signals. Such interventions only fix the problem as long as you use them.

As per my PM on this subject,(and then it's time to watch Buffy), folks who lower bodyfat and keep it below setpoint for extended periods are simply maintaining those behaviors (reduced food intake, increased activity, drugs) in the long-term (let's say forever). The body isn't going to autocorrect to the problem.

Max

I agree with everything you say except metabolism is referred to by encarta.com

1. life-sustaining chemical activity: the series of processes by which food is converted into the energy and products needed to sustain life


2. chemical activity involving particular substance: the biochemical activity of a particular substance in a living organism

Your body is not going to burn fat any other special way than it regularly does. The biochemical acitivity will not change any other way than it normally does. In other words, your body is not going to use 110 cals instead of 100 cal for everything you do. Or am i wrong on this? IMO, I think metabolism is generally genetics.

Exercising may induce hypertrophy of certain parts of your body which will let you work more in the long run, (less lactic acid due to an increase of oxygen supply??? and muscles???) but unless you do more, you will still use the same amount of calories to lift a cup. Your ATP wont be supermans out of nowhere.

 

[MAXHARDC]

I agree with everything you say except metabolism is referred to by encarta.com

1. life-sustaining chemical activity: the series of processes by which food is converted into the energy and products needed to sustain life


2. chemical activity involving particular substance: the biochemical activity of a particular substance in a living organism

Your body is not going to burn fat any other special way than it regularly does. The biochemical acitivity will not change any other way than it normally does. In other words, your body is not going to use 110 cals instead of 100 cal for everything you do. Or am i wrong on this? IMO, I think metabolism is generally genetics.

Exercising may induce hypertrophy of certain parts of your body which will let you work more in the long run, (less lactic acid due to an increase of oxygen supply??? and muscles???) but unless you do more, you will still use the same amount of calories to lift a cup. Your ATP wont be supermans out of nowhere.

You are correct, but when you introduce drugs into the equation, it all changes.

I've seen nothing to suggest that it will spontaneously lower itself either (tho it can go up). Except, again, in old age where a lot of brain functions go positively goofy (normal appetite/bodyweight regulation goes haywire just like most of the systems).

Maybe gene therapy of some sort. And, once again, drugs can trick the brain by sending a false signal but that's not lowering the setpoint. As soon as you go off the drugs, you're right back to square one.

The ephedrine/caffeine stack is a good example (Ties into someone else's question in a private chat about affecting the output side of things): EC corrects a deficit that is all too common in obesity (and that also occurs in dieting): low sympathatic nervous system output. Or think about using synthetic T3 in the case of true hypothyroid syndrome (a defect at the gland).

Using both corrects the deficit but only as long as you continue to take the drugs: the body isn't going to spontaneously stop having the defect (i.e. the systems involved in low SNS output or low thyroid output don't ever magically heal/fix themselves). Go off the drug and you go right back to where you were (low SNS activity, low thyroid output). Same deal here.

Having low thyroid forever doesn't EVER cause the thyroid gland to become more responsive to TSH (assume that was the defect). Just as having low testosterone doesn't EVER cause the testes to become more sensitive to LH. You all know this and none would argue with it (I hope). You can take a drug to fix the problem (synthetic T3 or test), you can take a drug to trick the body into getting a false signal, the problem never autocorrects.

The brain isn't going to EVER stop responding to insufficient fuel and food stores (signalled by insulin, leptin, etc) by autocorrecting. The setpoint is, to a great degree, genetically set (in both animal and human models, obese critters regulate bodyweight just fine, they simply do it at a higher weight/bodyfat percentage; their setpoint is genetically higher).

It can be modified (almost always upwards and there appear to be permanent changes in brain chemistry that occur) by a few things, severe obesity, puberty, pregnancy. No solution except for surgery, drugs (that you'll have to take forever), or just sucking it up.

And that's all that people who maintain a low bodyfat (low = below setpoint) in the face of such adapations are doing: sucking it up. They, through force of will, maintain behaviors consistent with staying below their setpoint (and those behaviors get easier with time through sheer repetition) but the body is always waiting for that surplus of calories to come in to start storing fat like it's going out of style. The benefits to those people of staying lean outweigh the short term benefits of eating a pizza (or whatever). And this is something for everyone to keep in mind in terms of the setpoint concept: it's not a guarantee that you're going to get fat again, it's a biological tendency that your body is going to always have. Obviously, if you don't give it the food (or keep up activity) or do whatever to maintain the new lowered energy balance, you're not going to get fat again. But as soon as you give your body those excess calories, just watch it pile on.

Folks who are naturally lean lucked out in the setpoint category, theirs are lower and they tend to respond to gaining bodyfat by losing it rapidly (through various mechanisms). This is no different than someone who has naturally higher testosterone or thyroid or SNS activity; they lucked out in the genetic lottery.

As a final point, regarding the whole learning/behavior thing realize that a great deal of the 'signal' to the brain to adapt is a lack of signal (low leptin, yes fine, other short-term hormones like ghrelin and stuff are sending an enhanced signal but leptin sets the tone for the whole thing). It's one thing to 'teach' the body to adapt to a new signal but ask yourself how it can adapt to a non-signal? That's like the thyroid and testosterone examples above, there's a chronic non-signal in both cases (low TSH, low LH or testicular sensitivity or whatever) and it never autocorrects. Setpoint is no different.

If someone is 'teaching' themselves (through negative reinforcement or whatever) to avoid overeating or whatever, they're not really lowering setpoint. They are simply overlaying a new behavior pattern (associate hunger with negative emotions) on the old one. But nothing has changed from the standpoint of the VMH.

Same with drug addicts, they either change drugs (note that methadone works just like heroin but it's legal and avoids the problems inherent in obtaining legal drugs), ex-alcoholics will find another drug to abuse, most heroin quitters start smoking, etc. Give that person a little bit of their drug of choice and they tend to fall right back on the wagon: the addiction never goes away. They simply learn to control it through force of will. That and they learn coping mechanisms to keep themselves out of danger. The neurochemistry that controlled the addiction is never gone, they simply learn behaviors to cope with it.

Max