Considering the Air Force Reserves to pay for Med School

Discussion in 'Military Medicine' started by AnArabiaNight, Dec 22, 2008.

  1. AnArabiaNight

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Medical Student
    Hey everyone,

    I am considering joining the Air Force Reserves to pay for my med school and earn an income while in school. I was hoping some of you may know the costs/benefits associated with this. I actually have no problem being dropped in a combat zone as long as I am in a medical role. I have moral issues with pointing a gun at someone which is why I've been told that the Air Force is the "cleanest" of the Armed Forces. But I think that as a medic helping people is helping people and I could do that and still sleep at night. I also am concerned that I would be deployed while in Med School. I heard that the Navy has a rule against deploying med students, is the Air Force the same. Also, I heard after you complete you education that you have to do 4yrs of Active duty, do you get paid like a civilian physician? for Emergency Med lik $150-200,000/year.

    Thanks in advance for any evenhanded information you can give to help me make a better decision.
     
  2. VanBrown

    VanBrown Your retarded.
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2008
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    MDApps:
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    If you are doing it just to pay for school it probably won't be what you want it to be.

    #1 You will not be deployed while in medical school.
    #2 You won't be going to any combat zone within the next 8 or so years.
    #3 You are going to belong to the US government from the moment you sign your commission papers. Everything you do subjects you to the law of the military and you are expected to conduct yourself as a military officer.
    #4 You will have 4, 45-day training deployments throughout medical school. One is officer training, one will most likely be aerospace medicine, and the other two are away-rotations for school during your 4th year.
    #5 Pay. Don't expect it to be as high as civilian. You get paid while in school. That is awesome. You don't have 200k in debt when you graduate. That is really awesome. If you do an AF residency you get paid officer pay as a captain plus cost of living, housing, etc. You DO NOT get specialist pay or board pay until residency is done. You will make more money in residency but less afterwards, compared to civilian.
    #6 Your payback time doesn't start until after residency. However, you can skip residency and by being a flight surgeon or a general medical officer for your payback time then go to residency when you get out.

    For the best info search the web and/or talk to a recruiter.
     
  3. silverhorse84

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Adding to the above poster - there's a military medicine forum here where the pros/cons have been discussed in depth. :)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. SB100

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2007
    Messages:
    930
    Likes Received:
    3
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    There's a U.S. National Health Service Corps deal where they pay parts of your medical school debt in exchange for service to underserved areas in certain geographical locations. You may want to look into that.
     
  5. sarahl86

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,599
    Likes Received:
    2
    Status:
    Medical Student
    I'm looking into the Navy HPSP for medical school...I believe that people do do reserves while in medical school but if you specifically enlist in a Health Professional Scholarship Program (Army, Navy, or Air Force) you will not be deployed during medical school. If you do the reserves you probably have a greater likelihood of being deployed because you're treated like everyone else in the reserves.

    The Navy's process is that you apply for the scholarship and if accepted you have a sign-on bonus and earn about $1800/month for living expenses throughout medical school. You have to do an officer development program for one summer and then 3 more 45-day active duty trainings. The recruiter I'm working with explained that in your second year this will most likely be you receiving orders to quite literally just study for the Board exam or being stationed somewhere where that will happen. And then the others are clinical or research clerkships.

    After medical school you have to apply for military residencies where you will get paid more than a civilian resident, but they do not count towards your four years of active duty post-school. Only after you are done your residency can you start working towards your four year active duty commitment, and after that you are on IRR for another four years where your chances of being called for duty are much smaller than your standard reserve duty.

    Check the military medicine forum.

    Orrr depending on your state you can agree to practice in underserved areas for X years and they will pay your med school loans back. I've known several doctors that do that. If you look it up on AAMC they have a medical school funding pdf somewhere that talks about all that stuff.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  6. Bacchus

    Administrator Moderator Physician 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    20,653
    Likes Received:
    1,988
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I would recommend looking into the Military Medicine forums. Also, I would talk to a recruiter that specializes in medical scholarships and not just a general recruiter. Also, realize that even though you have a moral obligation to yourself to not point a gun at anyone, you will learn how to protect yourself and will be trained in doing so.

    If this is only about the money then this really is not the way to go.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. I am the Stig

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    About the morality of it... we're all to some extent supporting the US military and supporting a force that has had a net negative effect on the world in the last 50 years. I could not live with myself if I were to actively and so directly support the US military. I don't see a physician's role in the US military much differently than aiding and abetting murder. I'm sorry I just don't see how any physician could view our military as anything other than an inhumane and unjust force of destruction that goes against the most basic ethical principles of physicians.

    OP, As for the air force being the "cleanest" of the military... There was a relatively recent US military involvement in a certain country where a very extensive bombing campaign was the only real military action against the target country. There were no US military deaths. Civilians were killed and sometimes targeted (perhaps accidentally, perhaps not). Between 500 and 2000 died at the hands of American pilots and their clean bombs. Now, more of those country's civilians are dieing prematurely due to the radiation years later. I will not say the name of the country - its easy enough to figure out. Find the sources yourself if you care.

    Our country murders innocent people without giving it a thought, the public accepts it, generally doesn't care, and people like you obviously support it. I would die before serving our despicable military. It shames this country and the world hates us for it.

    If you are interested in serving people in war-zones or former war-zones, then why do you not join a more humane organization?
     
  8. Pianoman32

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Medical Student

    Wow, people like you make me sick.
     
  9. eagledriver

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2008
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Medical Student
    You're failing to mention that we also stopped a genocide in its tracks. People complain that we failed to do anything to prevent Rwanda, Darfur or now Congo, but you're actually complaining about the fact that we halted the massacre in Kosovo. What sort of coward thinks we should stand idly by when genocide occurs?
     
    #9 eagledriver, Dec 23, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2008
  10. I am the Stig

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    The net effect has been overwhelmingly negative. The average is one pointing towards inhumanity rather than humanity.
    Regarding Kosovo, the conflict did not begin nor end in 1999. The US prevented one incident of ethnic cleansing and then encouraged/allowed for another.
    Regarding said states in Africa - it has a lot to do with too many Americans not giving a **** about the third world, especially when the people are of dark-coloured skin. I don't care to go further into this.
    The injustice carried out by the US govt and its followers is not the product of its people, but of a system that allows for and encourages for the exploitation of the "others" by those with the means to do so. I wanted to clarify that I blame not the people who identify as "American" but the people who serve as the muscle of the inhumane forces dominating global affairs. It is not entirely a one-way road; any state given the free opportunity to do as it pleases without consequence would likely do similar things. Skipping many more thoughts.... only in a stateless world where all are given equality of opportunity and equal access to resources will this inhumanity end since I cannot expect millions of people to come to their senses and stop enlisting to join a force of inhumanity.
    Thats enough to get the general idea of where I'm going with this.

    OP, I am curious about your final decision if you've made one.

    ONE MORE NOTE: See a movie called "The Good German". There is a part where a military officer is talking with George Clooney's character (after Germany surrenders in WWII). In the scence the officer describes how one German man's role in the Nazi regime was to poison truck loads of Jews with carbon monoxide. The man would drive Jews in the back of his truck/lorry with the exhaust channeled to the cargo area. By the time he arrived to the dumping site, all would have been dead. The officer goes on to say that if you were to ask that man whether he murdered anyone he would reply without hesitation that he is innocent and was just a driver.

    In too many cases, US/NATO soldiers are also just "drivers".
     
  11. speedyk

    speedyk Junior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    0
    Funny how you give yourself a pass... your tax dollars are directly funding what you view as a terrorist government engaging in mass murder. What does that say about you? You go around on your high horse judging military physicians, but you really should GTFO of the country if you really believed what you are saying.
     
  12. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California
    Moderator 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,658
    Likes Received:
    1,789
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Nothing screams a lack of life experience and perspective more than backing up your philosophy about war by quoting war movies...
     
  13. Mosin

    Mosin KCOM class of 2013!
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    "IamtheStig", your name really should be changed to "Iamtheidiot". Do you pay taxes? If you really believe the BS that you're spouting, then you would refuse to pay taxes. You can't relieve yourself of guilt by having people do the dirty work for you. If you think the US and its defenders are this evil, then you need to leave the country ASAP. You sit behind your computer screen bad-mouthing the men and women who provide for the protection of this nation, giving you the ability to say whatever you please. I think you are a coward. Sure, the military has made mistakes, the US government makes mistakes or has flawed motives, but you're pretty weak...
     
  14. Handsome1

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    2
    I find it childish to get upset about online posts but,....

    Every single time I read your posts in this thread, it's a giant self esteem boost for my intelligence. It sure would be great to sit around the campfire with terrorists, hold hands, and sing kum-bay-ya while sharing our vast and glorious resources of mother earth. I mean I dig what you are saying. It's beautiful.

    "Imagine all the people, imagine no countries, imagine no religion, imagine no possesions"- sings John Lennon after he leaves his multi million $ New York apartment in a limosine

    To follow your logic, you in essensce called military members murderers and anyone treating them associated with the murder the army spreads around the world.

    What about trauma surgeons that treat drug dealers/murderers/ and rapists? Is it immoral to associate with healing those type of murderers or is it just wrong to associate with healing those people in the military who by your definition murder. I mean you are curing people whose job it is to go back out and murder again. right?

    Also, be careful you might need a trauma eval when you fall off that horse of yours....it's a pretty high...way up there.
     
  15. DrMetal

    DrMetal To shred or not shred?
    Physician PhD Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    1,439
    Likes Received:
    177
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    LOL, where do these threads come from?! Is someone just moving them here to get our blood boiling!?

    well said. So nice to see that even if you're pro/con milmed, at least we can all come together to defend our service.

    Anyway, to the OP: Sounds like you have an aversion to joining the military, especially if come right of the gates looking for the "cleanest" service. That shouldn't be your number one priority. And true, you'll probably never point a gun at someone, but you might be in direct support of those who are doing the shooting. How does that make you feel? Who knows, you could be in a situation where you do have to pick up a weapon to protect yourself and your patient. Anyway, if you really have such moral conflicts, best not to join. It's a voluntary service.
     
  16. I am the Stig

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    I won't respond to any of the above personal attacks. I do not wish to fully illustrate the circumstances that have lead to my convictions. The movie that I mentioned was a fair illustration of a more specific example of who considers what to be murder. I have not spoken personally with any murderers or any Nazi collaborators. So, forgive me for using a non-personal account to help illustrate a point.

    I am glad to hear that your intelligence is receiving a self-esteem boost, as you say. What I have written may come across as naive. However, you should note that they are only ideals; ideals that likely will never be realised due to the self-serving nature that drives too many people. What I hope for is not something that I expect anyone to witness. It is only a personal hope, not too different in nature from the hope that some people hold when thinking of their religion. Some would like to see a world of pious Christians and the second coming of Christ while others dream of something different. That is all. The difference is that the hope I hold can come closer to realisation if more people, through reason, decide to share the hope that I have.

    Regarding the treatment of criminals by physicians. There is a functional framework of laws governing over those criminals. Their behaviour/future action is strictly limited according to laws that are actively enforced. Do you see what the difference is?? There is no functional framework to govern over US military aggression. It does as it pleases with little if any consequence. That is the difference. If there was a group of ten people on an isolated island where one person is an unstoppable murderer that had already killed off four people intentionally and another person was a physician, then there would be a different situation then the one you described. In the example I've given you, I would hope that the physician would not help the murderer in creating further death.

    To sve us all time and prevent your intelligence from receiving another self-esteen boost, I'll let you know that if you still cannot put the pieces together of what I am saying, then you have a lot more to read with respect to global political affairs. I will not write any more on this.

    On the topic of John Lennon/hypocrisy/high-horse: Too many assumptions and lack of context. Even if I were to leave the US it would be unavoidable to fund its military indirectly through global commerce. Also, it is not just the US govt at blame here - its all governments (to varying degress) that yield it support in its inhumane acts.

    I really have nothing against any single group of people other than those who are willfully ignorant of the injustice our country inflicts upon others. I do plan on leaving this state after completing university for other personal reasons.

    Again, make a distinction between self-defense and unprovoked aggression with respect to security of US lives and between government and the people. Huge distinctions that "Mosin" fails to recognise.

    That is all for this thread
     
    #16 I am the Stig, Jan 12, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2009
  17. elftown

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    18
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I hear you, I am the Stig. There is no such thing as a clean military. And whether the Air Force is the "cleanest" or not, it is still quite far from clean.

    In reply to all these other people, leaving the country is the worst idea. I can't believe you called I am the Stig an idiot when it clearly appears otherwise. The best way to spark change in a flawed system is from the inside. Leaving the country is running from the problem and I am surprised any of you would think this is a good idea. Our military are brave, generous men and women. However, our military as a whole is one of the biggest offenders of humanity.

    I, for one, want to be proud of my country and am torn between:

    • joining as a military physician (or even a special forces combatant, to help put an end to said genocides), or
    • serving in Doctors without Borders, while also pushing for preventive measures in these countries
    So, whether you agree with me or not, I am a defender of both sides. Neither is perfect. Even Gandhi provided aid to injured soldiers, no?
     
  18. I am the Stig

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    I overlooked the point about individuals' motives for joining the military. I do not doubt that many are well-meaning persons. I do not want to make it sound as though they themselves are guilty of terrible crimes, but I did want to stress that their actions are necessary for atrocities to occur. Regardless of how misguided a person may be and how dangerous his/her mis-intended actions are, I would never personally refuse to help that person because of the fact that I would then have contributed to that person's death. Thereby, making myself something of a killer. At the same time, I would never want to be in that kind of situation to begin with.

    I think the major problem with the first option is that, to my knowledge, you cannot choose which battles you want to fight. I don't know if you can say "I will help in the effort to end inhumanity where genocide may be occurring, but I will not help when I believe that military force is not warranted." Perhaps those sorts of choices would be possible in say a for-profit private military unit. Though those are illegal.

    I'd like to add that I have admiration for many aspects of US culture and do value the security of life and rights that seem to exist in this country. I can't say that I am proud to be an American, since I was not raised in a classical American family setting, but I do not take for granted the history behind creating/preserving many of the [non-monetary] benefits for the individual in contemporary America.
     
  19. Mosin

    Mosin KCOM class of 2013!
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    IamtheStig, I want to apologize for my previous post. You are not an idiot, though I still must disagree with your stance on some things...
     
  20. MaximusD

    MaximusD Anatomically Incorrect
    Physician 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    5,140
    Likes Received:
    273
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Dear A-hole,

    Kindly DIAF.

    Love,

    MaxD
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  21. MaximusD

    MaximusD Anatomically Incorrect
    Physician 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    5,140
    Likes Received:
    273
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    But he is an idiot. The freedoms he/she enjoys are due to the sacrifices made by others. Not only does he/she demonstrate zero gratitude, but he grossly insults those who have died so that he can live in a free and open society. I am in the military, but I am not flag-waving moron. However, if you deny that this nation's existence is because of men willing to defend it against enemies, then you are sadly and profoundly mistaken. Just because it is covered by CNN and spun as our military being a bunch of Huns, doesn't mean it's so. Try to use your own brain, Stig.

    That is not to say Iraq was a good idea, but this is the fault of policy coming out of the white house and not the actual servicemen and women. I'd love to see your theory on the United States' continued existence without hte presence of a well-equipped and disciplined armed service backing it up. I'm all ears.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    TravelingRunner likes this.
  22. atomi

    atomi Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,069
    Likes Received:
    2,102
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Listen, kid, I've got to believe that you are stupid. You are stupid because what you just wrote is perhaps the most evil thing I have ever read, right up there next to the proceedings of the Wannsee Conference. But you profess the intent of righteousness, which is why I have to believe that you must actually be that stupid, because there are only two ways to read what you just wrote:

    1. That you are that stupid, and totally ignorant of what was implied in what you just wrote.
    2. That you are fully aware of what you wrote and therefore represent one of the vilest evils known to mankind.

    I have to believe that you are in the first category, in which case, please read what I am going to write here in my vain attempt to educate you:

    You started by mentioning morality. Lets define morality in the context of our country, America. This is what we, as Americans hold to be moral values:

    1. The right to life. Nobody has the right to take our lives from us. A moral and just government works to protect the lives of its citizens, that is, those who pay for it.

    2. The right to property. People who work hard and produce have a right to reap the rewards of their productivity. Such a system promotes invention and industrial progress and encourages the development of the best products. It is natural selection applied to economics. It is a beautiful thing. It is called capitalism. It is what makes America the greatest country in the world. It is the reason that doctors, who put in a massive amount of effort to obtain their training, earn much more money than others. Given that you want to become a doctor, this should be a system you respect, otherwise your decision is totally illogical. There is evil in the world that seeks to redistribute your labor to those who have not earned it. This is detrimental to society and exists as a form of corruption. Leaders emerge seeking redistribution from the high earners (the drivers of society) to those unwilling to put in such effort (in the form of money and intellectual property). These leaders (aka dictators) gain power by promising something for nothing and drive away the producers in the society, thus leaving a society doomed to failure. The most moral thing a man can do is work to produce because it is what drives society to better itself. Giving something to someone who has not earned it is not a moral thing to do because it perverts the system and negatively impacts society (people begin to accepts gifts of others as their right and refuse to put forth effort to become productive members of society).

    3. The right to liberty/personal freedom/happiness/whatever you want to call it. No man or government has the right to prevent another from working for his own personal benefit, profit, and happiness. When you work for a profit, you create something out of nothing and you exchange your creation in the form money, which represents the labor put forth by the person paying you. When you do work without monetary reimbursement, you are working as a slave. You are still creating something from nothing, as that is the nature of human labor, but you are not profiting from it. Somebody else is - it is being looted from you. Anytime you produce (i.e., do work), money is created whether or not you are paid. What determines whether or not the system is moral is where the money (the product of that effort) goes. If the money goes to the one who produced it, the system is moral. If it goes to somebody else, the system is immoral.

    Those are the three tenets upon which America is based. It is the only country in the world where a man can be totally free to morally work for his own regard. If you don't agree with those, then you are inherently evil, in which case, kindly GTFO out of our country and payback every last cent you have looted from this nation.

    Now, lets examine briefly the proper function of government. A moral government exists to protect those three rights of its citizens. By citizens, I mean those who are productive members of society who pay for the protection of those rights through their labors. A branch of the government is its armed forces. The military exists to protect the government from the evil in the world who wish to infringe on the rights of its citizens and cause harm by force.

    In case you don't remember, on September 11th, 2001, our country was attacked by evil. This evil was in the form of terrorism that seeks to undermine the capitalistic functions of our government. These religious fanatics don't believe in capitalism, which we regard as the highest moral virtue. Instead they believe in dictatorship, forced religion, stealing by force, and enforcement of their immoral system through the slaughter of innocents. They represent everything that is evil and immoral in this world.

    And you are sitting there saying that the actions of our military, those who volunteer to protect the highest moral virtues, those who volunteer with their lives to protect the rights which you so obviously take for granted, are "aiding and abetting murder... inhumane and unjust force of destruction that goes against the most basic ethical principles of physicians."??????????:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

    Can you possibly be that out of touch. Take a long, long time to think about what you just wrote. If you aren't completely horrified at what you just implied, you are an enemy of this state, an enemy of all moral men left on this world, and represent the worst kind of evil there is. Stay the **** out of America, stay the **** out of medicine, and find someone else to steal from, because we as Americans just won't allow it, and we will defend it to our deaths.

    I voted for Barack Obama because in an odd twist, the democratic party now best represents the form of limited government and capitalism that is vital to everything that is good, and welcome the change he will bring to this country and to the world.

    In regard to your comment about joining more humane organizations, why don't you think about what these type of organizations represent, these type of organizations that give unwarranted aid, loans, and equipment to foreigners at the expense of Americans. These types of organizations that improperly indebt foreign nations to international banks at the expense of their peoples? These types of organizations that encourage and sometimes help setup totalitarian regimes through their corrupt lending and aid practices. Are these the more humane organizations you refer to? Whether you choose to accept it or not, the US military, while not perfect (certainly under its last CIC) is the most moral organization there is.
     
  23. atomi

    atomi Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,069
    Likes Received:
    2,102
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    See my post. He is either one of two things:

    1. A misinformed or uneducated child / idiot who doesn't know what he is saying
    2. A man who represents evil of the worst form.

    So, he may not be an idiot, he may just be Satan incarnate.

    Either way, don't apologize.
     
  24. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California
    Moderator 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,658
    Likes Received:
    1,789
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I think you're stretching things a bit to consider "right to property" to be one of the three tenets upon which America is based. Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness would be the three, from the Declaration of Independence. You might be thinking of John Locke's "life, liberty, and estate (property)".

    The Declaration guarantees freedom, including the freedom to determine your economic course. It's not a capitalist bible. Jefferson explicitly did not mention right to property. This was by design.
    Reducing 9/11 to an attack on an economic principle and claiming that capitalism is the "highest moral virtue" makes me both sad and slightly ill. We do not fight wars for "capitalism" and claiming that those returning home did not die for their country, but to support an economic principle is in poor taste.

    Incidentally, I disagree with everything mentioned in Stig's post. But your use of the word "evil" to describe him worries me a little. He's a misguided kid with little life experience. If you really see this as "evil", comparing his views to someone who intentionally kills innocents, you're feeding the flames.
     
  25. atomi

    atomi Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,069
    Likes Received:
    2,102
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Actually, the pursuit of happiness is a better term than right to property, as property can be inherited or gifted and thus not properly earned through labor. Whether Locke or Jefferson said it first is inconsequential as I did not specifically write what I wrote with them in mind. Those three things are fundamental to America and are more significant that they coincidentally sound familiar to a popular (and widely misunderstood) phrase.

    No, the ideal that he implied in what he wrote represents one of the worst evils known to mankind. To say that we don't have a right to defend that which is just and moral, and even furthermore to attempt to make us feel guilty for that defense (i.e., an attempt to use our own virtues as his weapon) is evil in its worst form.

    You are right, he is a misguided kid who doesn't know what he wrote. If I had to take a shot in the dark, I would guess he's never provided entirely for himself before and has always relied on the assistance of others. Of course I would expect him to deny that to us, and more importantly, to himself. But it doesn't change the fact that he is spitting in the face of his protectors and providers.
     
  26. atomi

    atomi Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,069
    Likes Received:
    2,102
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Capitalism is much, much more than an economic principle. Those returning home did not die at all, just to clarify things. But those who did die, they died defending capitalism, which represents the freedom of the people to have full control over their course of their lives, not to be a slave, not to be ruled by some king, not to have your work stolen by communist thugs or dictators -- i.e., in essence, it boils down to the pure defense of freedom. That is what those who died for. Why do you think the 9/11 attackers attacked America's largest symbol of capitalistic economic trade? The 9/11 attackers purposely attacked capitalism as a symbol, given that what they were really attacking was our freedom, and thus instilling terror in us that the freedoms we have always enjoyed were now jeopardized.

    Think about this harder. It's a simple concept, but it's a very deep concept that can't just be seen from the surface. When it finally hits you, this revelation of what America is always about, it is a rather profound feeling. At least that's what I felt, because in some ways when I was younger, I had been misguided like this young guy as well. When you discover the truth on your own, it's a pretty wonderful feeling. And also a terrifying feeling because you realize that there are so many out there trying to (and who have previously) mislead you for their own gain. I stand by everything I wrote.
     
  27. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California
    Moderator 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,658
    Likes Received:
    1,789
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    It's an important distinction to me because the right of the pursuit of happiness written by Jefferson in our Declaration of Independence has a lot more meaning (and authority) than the very English concept of the right of estate (property).
     
  28. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California
    Moderator 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,658
    Likes Received:
    1,789
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    No. Freedom and capitalism are not interchangeable.

    Besides which, we're not even a pure capitalist state. We have a lot of elements of socialism in the way America is built and operates. Some of the socialism folks feel is too much. Some of it folks grudgingly admit is a necessary evil. Some of it folks embrace without a second thought. Ironically, the VA is one of the largest examples of socialism this country has.

    Pure capitalism doesn't work any more than pure socialism. There's not an effective functioning example of either in world history. Political extremes tend not to work well.
    I'm sure WTC being a financial institution helped them target it. But at the end of the day they chose something really tall and really visible that they hoped could bring down with a couple of aircraft. If you turned back time and the WTC weren't ever built, they would more likely have taken out the Empire State Building than a 10 story financial house.
    Sorry, dude. Too much college econ/philosophy dorm room talk for my taste. If you really believe that America is ultimately all about capitalism and nothing else, you're not much less misguided than the Stig guy. His ideas are less palatable, but I don't swallow yours either.

    To each their own, though. You have your beliefs and I'll have mine.
     
  29. atomi

    atomi Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,069
    Likes Received:
    2,102
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Again, you're looking at capitalism as purely an economic system and not an applied philosophy. The product of a man's impact on the world is his production, i.e., his labor. Certainly, philosophy enters when it becomes important to discuss how is labor is treated in society. Look at communism and say that's not applied philosophy. The communist manifesto is most certainly a philosophical document. Much in the same way is the America's Bill of Rights. Capitalism is an applied philosophy of the highest moral degree where man is rewarded directly and proportionately to his effort and his ability. Because man sees the direct result of his labor as his reward, production is encouraged and valued in society. With increased production comes new inventions, a higher quality of life, and the very real notion that if you produce something worthless, nobody will buy it - an economic survival of the fittest that ensures only the very best products and services end up in the hands of the public. None of this would be possible without the freedom that America provides, and the reason America grew into the superpower it did following its industrial revolution is because of this freedom.

    Now, how can you say that capitalism is purely *just an economic policy? And furthermore, that it doesn't work? From the end of the Napoleonic Wars to the outbreak of WWI and subsequent WWII, the industrial revolution took place where man broke free of tens of thousands years of bondage, serfdom, and no progress with an enormous leap in only a few decades representing an increase in quality of living hundreds of times greater in magnitude than the last thousand years combined. This period represented the point in history during which capitalism was most purely applied (in America), and the industrial revolution would not have happened if not for the freedoms allowed in America for man to make something of himself and not have his labor exploited by another. Slavery was abolished, the colonial period of unjust conquest and seizure by force came to an end, Europe saw the fall of the rest of its major feudal travesties of kingdoms, and man, for the first time ever finally had the opportunity (and rightly deserved freedom) to work for his own profit in a civilized society.

    Unfortunately, not all of the rest of the world was able to follow America's breakaway from the unjust traditional European rule with the establishment of freedom and justice, and thus went the other way, the divergent results leading to communism and national socialism in response to their oppression - not only declaring their independence as did America, but doing so by demanding the unjust seizure of unearned goods, property, and lives that were not rightly theirs to take. Unfortunately, these socialistic events rippled throughout the world, and coupled with the effects of the Great Depression, and still have ramifications in politics to this day that prevent full capitalism and free markets.

    Given faith in the good of mankind, one day capitalism will reign fully and people will no longer demand for themselves that which they have not earned. The concept of need as a sole premise for ownership (rather than ability) will disappear as men will take full control and responsibility for their own lives.

    The VA is not an example of socialism. Those who use the services of the VA, they have paid for it with their service to the country and thus justly earned it, which is not the definition of socialism. Medicare is more of a socialist system, redistributing the product of labor of others who most often have not proportionality traded their labor in turn for it.
     
  30. MilGym

    MilGym Pre-med USN Vet

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    You just exercised your constitutional right to express your opinion by freedom of speech thanks to our military. We have the best and most professional military in the world, and it is composed of volunteer Americans representing every race, ethnicity, creed, religion, minority, majority, SAT score, GRE score, you name it. A strong military presence around the world serves as a deterrent to those who would harm our way of life (and there are many, make no mistake): those who would deny you the FREEDOM to express your dissent in a public forum. Members of our military swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. Without a strong military throughout our nation's history, any group --external or internal-- could've taken away all of your rights (see the nation 99 miles south of Key West, or the PROC, or Iran, where it is still common practice to stone adulterers and homosexuals). Most Americans don't join the military to kill people, or to go to war. The military follows orders and goes where it's sent. Regarding those orders, before you bring it up, military members swear to obey all lawful orders. That means that common sense will prevail. These aren't the 60s. Our military has changed and evolved for the better, even though our world has not.
     
    TravelingRunner likes this.
  31. J-Rad

    Physician Moderator Emeritus 15+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2003
    Messages:
    3,542
    Likes Received:
    20
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    You do realize that this poster hasn't posted here or anywhere on SDN in almost a year and a half (about the same time this thread died)? Feel free to let dead threads rest in peace.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...

Share This Page