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Seriously? Dude.. you're kind of an asshat.
To the OP, good luck, I hope you make it. I'M ROOTING FOR YOU!
Convicted Felon - Is Medical School Realistic?
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Seriously? Dude.. you're kind of an asshat.
To the OP, good luck, I hope you make it. I'M ROOTING FOR YOU!
Very interesting discussion.
To Nothing Gold Can Stay, good luck no matter what I and others say. Regardless of medical school or not, moving forward each day and trying to be the best you can be in society is an exceptional outcome.
My personal opinion may not be pleasant, but it is only my opinion and not worth more than that. For me, the action is so many standard deviations from the mean response to a parental divorce (being the child of divorced parents and having gone through tremendous emotional turmoil growing up) that it would be hard for me to imagine a situation where your credentials put you ahead of the highly competitive applicant pool competing for limited medical school spots.
Furthermore, you were not a child when this happened. Certainly, you were not a voting adult, but you were not a five year old either. At age 17, the neural tracts that execute basic sense of right and wrong should be well formed. After all, there are medical students who are 19 (I was one), and some who are caring for patients as young as 22. This would put you five years removed from such a devastating and destructive action.
I certainly do not wish anyone harm, but that also does not mean that everyone should be a physician. I believe we would need to give bonus points for every other applicant who didn't have a felony, let alone one committed at such advanced age (after all, medical school applicants are generally early 20's in age), and one who committed arson. In such a competitive environment, you would have to be ranked lower than the other 99.9% of applicants because they didn't have this occurrence on their record.
My suggestion to you would be to find an alternative pathway as this one is likely to cause you more stress, take more money, and not yield the likelihood of success and happiness at the end. That would not be a win for you, your finances, your classmates, your school, nor your patients (most likely, certainly nothing is absolute, but this is most likely).
To the many SDN posters who are so quick to be upset with the posters sharing unfavorable opinions, let me ask you…why are you not so critical of the person who committed arson? You are much more forgiving of such a destructive reaction rather than accepting that there will be people who may want to spare this individual the wasted time and money and also may harbor misgivings about having their children, spouse, etc being treated by a physician who committed arson at age 17.
I know it feels good to think that every mistake is redeemable on a professional application…but from my calculation, this one is nearly impossible.
I know, I would be very nervous having my 15 month old son in a room alone with this individual. Unfortunately, without doing something so extremely (many many standard deviations above the mean) beneficial to society it would be hard to outweigh the OP's previous actions to the point where I would be comfortable with them alone with my son, or consider them a role model for his development.
Just my opinion, certainly I don't expect it to taste good to everyone, but its the truth as I see it.
To Nothing Gold Can Stay, good luck no matter what I and others say. Regardless of medical school or not, moving forward each day and trying to be the best you can be in society is an exceptional outcome.
My personal opinion may not be pleasant, but it is only my opinion and not worth more than that. For me, the action is so many standard deviations from the mean response to a parental divorce (being the child of divorced parents and having gone through tremendous emotional turmoil growing up) that it would be hard for me to imagine a situation where your credentials put you ahead of the highly competitive applicant pool competing for limited medical school spots.
Furthermore, you were not a child when this happened. Certainly, you were not a voting adult, but you were not a five year old either. At age 17, the neural tracts that execute basic sense of right and wrong should be well formed. After all, there are medical students who are 19 (I was one), and some who are caring for patients as young as 22. This would put you five years removed from such a devastating and destructive action.
I certainly do not wish anyone harm, but that also does not mean that everyone should be a physician. I believe we would need to give bonus points for every other applicant who didn't have a felony, let alone one committed at such advanced age (after all, medical school applicants are generally early 20's in age), and one who committed arson. In such a competitive environment, you would have to be ranked lower than the other 99.9% of applicants because they didn't have this occurrence on their record.
My suggestion to you would be to find an alternative pathway as this one is likely to cause you more stress, take more money, and not yield the likelihood of success and happiness at the end. That would not be a win for you, your finances, your classmates, your school, nor your patients (most likely, certainly nothing is absolute, but this is most likely).
To the many SDN posters who are so quick to be upset with the posters sharing unfavorable opinions, let me ask you…why are you not so critical of the person who committed arson? You are much more forgiving of such a destructive reaction rather than accepting that there will be people who may want to spare this individual the wasted time and money and also may harbor misgivings about having their children, spouse, etc being treated by a physician who committed arson at age 17.
I know it feels good to think that every mistake is redeemable on a professional application…but from my calculation, this one is nearly impossible.
I know, I would be very nervous having my 15 month old son in a room alone with this individual. Unfortunately, without doing something so extremely (many many standard deviations above the mean) beneficial to society it would be hard to outweigh the OP's previous actions to the point where I would be comfortable with them alone with my son, or consider them a role model for his development.
Just my opinion, certainly I don't expect it to taste good to everyone, but its the truth as I see it.
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@buttercup12 Thanks, that put a big genuine smile on my face.
I understand how you feel, I really do. I used to be really hard on criminals, too, before I "became" one and was around them for half a year. You're right; society owes me no more than it does anyone else. But I think society owes everyone at least one second chance. Yeah, I'm biased as hell. I would exclude rapists, murderers, and other sadistic criminals at least. I got no joy out of my crime, I did it for no personal gain. This post is derailing a bit from the original purpose of the thread, but can't you see that I don't have the mindset of a real criminal? I would argue that I am less likely to commit a crime than most people who have never done so before because I know the horrors of the prison system - I saw a man who came in who beat his 4 year old daughter and four white dudes cornered him in the shower and broke his arms and legs, stomped on his face, etc. Quickest trip to the ER I'll probably ever see even if I do become a doctor.
Also, oddly enough, the fire "saved" my parents' marriage - they are together now, and stable, although obviously no longer in love with each other. My younger brother and sister were as miserable as I was. We needed a god damn change, and the fire was the catalyst. The years of my mom driving my siblings and I around late at night, crying at the wheel, screaming that she wishes our father was dead. What would you have done?
@ Venko , you raise a great point about having to work harder than others for the same reward if I choose medical school. Thank you for your critique. It's rough that you say that about your son because general pediatrics is actually my specialty of choice. I love the idea of guiding a child's health from infancy to adulthood. Of course, I understand. I would feel the same about my child.
I understand how you feel, I really do. I used to be really hard on criminals, too, before I "became" one and was around them for half a year. You're right; society owes me no more than it does anyone else. But I think society owes everyone at least one second chance. Yeah, I'm biased as hell. I would exclude rapists, murderers, and other sadistic criminals at least. I got no joy out of my crime, I did it for no personal gain. This post is derailing a bit from the original purpose of the thread, but can't you see that I don't have the mindset of a real criminal? I would argue that I am less likely to commit a crime than most people who have never done so before because I know the horrors of the prison system - I saw a man who came in who beat his 4 year old daughter and four white dudes cornered him in the shower and broke his arms and legs, stomped on his face, etc. Quickest trip to the ER I'll probably ever see even if I do become a doctor.
Also, oddly enough, the fire "saved" my parents' marriage - they are together now, and stable, although obviously no longer in love with each other. My younger brother and sister were as miserable as I was. We needed a god damn change, and the fire was the catalyst. The years of my mom driving my siblings and I around late at night, crying at the wheel, screaming that she wishes our father was dead. What would you have done?
@ Venko , you raise a great point about having to work harder than others for the same reward if I choose medical school. Thank you for your critique. It's rough that you say that about your son because general pediatrics is actually my specialty of choice. I love the idea of guiding a child's health from infancy to adulthood. Of course, I understand. I would feel the same about my child.
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Do you believe the act of arson was wrong, or do you see it as the right move?
My problem is not that some posters are sharing unfavorable opinions but that they are instead tearing down the OP instead of providing actual advice. From his posts, OP seems like he's matured A LOT and understands the situation he's in. Sure there may be other careers he would have more success getting into but nearly impossible is not impossible, and doesn't mean he shouldn't try to get that MD.
I believe it was wrong. My siblings, although quite young, didn't deserve to lose any of their sentimental physical attachments, although most of my family's memorabilia like family photo albums were recovered. They didn't deserve to have to stay in a hotel for a week afterward, but honestly they didn't suffer that much after the initial shock factor. My sister noticeably improved happiness-wise while I was in jail compared to before. The incident changed something in my parents, and brought my family together, including me (they visited me fairly often). Nevertheless, it was a selfish move, and I regret it.
Where would my family be now if I hadn't done it? That's another matter entirely. The idea scares me. I have no clue.
Where would my family be now if I hadn't done it? That's another matter entirely. The idea scares me. I have no clue.
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@buttercup…are you sure that Gold understands right and wrong?
Medical schools have plenty of applicants who have no criminal record. No offense to OP, but a history of being an arson is not something anyone wants, and I'm afraid you have dug yourself a hole you'll never be able to climb out of, no matter how great your application is. You could have killed your family!
I'm not sure that you read my entire original post - nobody was home except me. They were never at risk.
Actually, in reading this - I think I was wrong about you. You've definitely matured to the point where you should be able to go to medical school. Nevermind that arson is arson in and of itself, regardless of if people are home or not.
OP, good luck. I'm not sure what things are like outside of medicine, but my gut tells me you're going to need all the luck and good fortune that you can get.
Stay thirsty my friends.
Nope. I don't know anything.
But idk, I guess it's probably because I've done some majorly effed things myself that I feel like I kind of know the feeling of trying to get past your past.
Gold,
At first I thought maybe you had understood that committing arson was a really bad mistake…now, I'm not sure. I get the feeling that you believe a few things:
(1) you had no other alternative
(2) you believe your family is better for having gone through the event
(3) it was safe to commit arson because you believed no one to be home.
I am not the definitive answer on all things so I will only offer my thoughts to these three things. They are founded from my background and experiences which I will add were quite trying but likely for different reasons.
To (1)…there are always alternatives. You can be the role model for your siblings, you can be the positive attitude your parents need, you could have talked with them about your desire to commit arson. Even mobilizing relatives, friends, school officials to your sense of hopelessness would have been better. There are always other means by which the problem can be solved. At least this is what I believe.
To (2)…because your parents who are not in love are still married and your siblings are safe does not mean that your action was the correct one. The end does not justify the means in my belief. You will be faced with many families facing hardship and if your advice to them is to burn down the home…to me, you would not be the right person to be dispensing advice.
To (3)…what if some kids were playing a prank and snuck into the home? What if the fire could not be stopped before spreading to neighbors? What if there were chemicals in the home that could have created fumes that injured others or was toxic to the environment? What if other kids looked to your action and did it themselves but injured or killed someone else? The risk from such an action is much greater than you could assess. Furthermore, if you want to claim that you were too young to know better…then you are also too young to safely screen the area for potential harms. You were very very fortunate to not have harmed anyone that we know of.
I could be wrong, and maybe misreading a few sentences etc and maybe you really get in your heart that this was an error in judgement but I don't believe it from reading the recent comments.
At first I thought maybe you had understood that committing arson was a really bad mistake…now, I'm not sure. I get the feeling that you believe a few things:
(1) you had no other alternative
(2) you believe your family is better for having gone through the event
(3) it was safe to commit arson because you believed no one to be home.
I am not the definitive answer on all things so I will only offer my thoughts to these three things. They are founded from my background and experiences which I will add were quite trying but likely for different reasons.
To (1)…there are always alternatives. You can be the role model for your siblings, you can be the positive attitude your parents need, you could have talked with them about your desire to commit arson. Even mobilizing relatives, friends, school officials to your sense of hopelessness would have been better. There are always other means by which the problem can be solved. At least this is what I believe.
To (2)…because your parents who are not in love are still married and your siblings are safe does not mean that your action was the correct one. The end does not justify the means in my belief. You will be faced with many families facing hardship and if your advice to them is to burn down the home…to me, you would not be the right person to be dispensing advice.
To (3)…what if some kids were playing a prank and snuck into the home? What if the fire could not be stopped before spreading to neighbors? What if there were chemicals in the home that could have created fumes that injured others or was toxic to the environment? What if other kids looked to your action and did it themselves but injured or killed someone else? The risk from such an action is much greater than you could assess. Furthermore, if you want to claim that you were too young to know better…then you are also too young to safely screen the area for potential harms. You were very very fortunate to not have harmed anyone that we know of.
I could be wrong, and maybe misreading a few sentences etc and maybe you really get in your heart that this was an error in judgement but I don't believe it from reading the recent comments.
I'm very confused by your response. Yes, arson is arson, but the fact remains that I knew they weren't coming home for hours, so they, in fact, were never at risk of being physically hurt.
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Knowing that you could have killed a dog because of a fire you started doesn't make you any less guilty.
What if they had decided to come home early? Of course they wouldn't need to clear it by you. What if they forgot something? What if they asked a friend to check in on you? What if a neighbor was concerned they heard something and tried to come help? What if the fire was difficult to stop for the fire department? The what ifs are many…
You seem to continually argue that the fire was safe and necessary. More and more justification of my concern that I would not want you anywhere near my son…especially not in an influential position.
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While I agree that this is a pretty extreme (and inappropriate) way of handling a stressful situation, I can't help but consider how many pre-med students are likely accepted into medical school every year having never experienced a (truly) stressful situation in their whole lives. Getting a B in Organic Chemistry doesn't count.
A lot of people have parents who get divorced and have family turmoil. There are people who are physically and sexually abused, have alcoholic parents, have lost parents to early death…you don't hear of many people resorting to arson.
I understand this, and I'm not saying the OP should be given a pass into medical school. I just think that a lot of people, myself included, have made it through life thus far without much to complain about. I honestly don't know what my breaking point is, though I'd like to hope it didn't result in arson.
"I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug."
Perhaps you should try and think outside of your small minded box and realize that people make mistakes.
A man is more than the the worst thing he has ever done.
Arson of a vacant structure is serious because you are putting first responders at risk. Firefighters die fighting all types of structure fires.
You seem to be misconstruing my disdain for this individual as a potential colleague as the same way I would treat a patient. The two differ, vastly.
I think that youre misunderstanding the fact that I think that physicians ought to be compassionate and understanding to all people, not just their patients.
In the end the way you treat people, even on an anonymous online forum, says a lot about your character.
That said, your previous posts on this thread have painted a very pretty picture of your character indeed.
People are people. Patients, colleagues, or strangers. They all deserve respect and compassion. Your distain for OP seems extensive and unnecessary.
I just hope we can all be as perfect as you someday.
In the end the way you treat people, even on an anonymous online forum, says a lot about your character.
That said, your previous posts on this thread have painted a very pretty picture of your character indeed.
People are people. Patients, colleagues, or strangers. They all deserve respect and compassion. Your distain for OP seems extensive and unnecessary.
I just hope we can all be as perfect as you someday.
Of all that you have written, this is the thing that finally tipped me over into responding. 1) There is an implication that what you went through was so horrifically awful that other people here cannot imagine it, an 2) that our choice of action would have been something equally absurd.
I actually am quite sympathetic to the notion that a 17 year old could be overwhelmed and ill equipped to deal with an unfairly complicated life. And I am even more sympathetic to the fact that 17 year olds are wired to be impulsive such that dealing with that stress could lend to an instantly regretted split second decision. I would never say there is enough content in this thread to redeem you, but I'd also want to hear more before casting you aside. Asking what I'd have done -- thumbs down.
I suggest that if you want that sympathy, you should never, ever say stuff like the above. There are people here, applying, in med school, on adcoms, and everywhere who will have endured far worse than you, and many of them have not done anything like arson. Awful life circumstances are not a zero sum game, and there will always be someone who has been through more torture and handled it better . . . so best not to even invite the comparison.
You're right, that was a silly question. I was getting caught up in recalling the pain of the driving around thing I mentioned in the sentence before.
Other people have gone through much worse than me, I know it firsthand.
Other people have gone through much worse than me, I know it firsthand.
Bolded = absolutely wrong. If I have a piece of **** for a colleague who beats his wife, I shouldn't be unrelentingly compassionate and think "Aw, that's okay - he probably has issues controlling his emotions or expressing himself." I realize that is a different situation to what is being discussed here, but if you want to make blanketed extrapolations like that, then it falls under the same umbrella. If you want to attack my character, ask society if I've done anything to call into question my morality and maturity. Then ask the same about OP. Is there a difference? You're god damn right there is.
You're a fool, and you and I have nothing else to discuss here chief.
@ Venko , in response to your other post..
(1) I did have alternatives. However, I had no friends at the time, and my father had taken away phone and computer/internet access. I had dropped out of high school due to failing grades. Couldn't call 911 if I had to since we had no landline. Couldn't drive. These are neither justifications nor excuses, just mitigating circumstances.
(2) That would never be my advice.
(3) You're 100% right. I am indeed fortunate to not have hurt anyone. I can't seem to state how minimal the actual danger from having seen the damage of the fire was without it sound like an excuse, so I'll just stop doing that even though I think it's important (think of how statistically dangerous it is just to drive your car every day). You're right that a neighbor could have thought I was napping amidst the fire. I'm just sorry, I don't want to debate just how deeply in my heart I know it was wrong; it was wrong and it was dangerous, I know it, believe me, I know it.
What I find interesting is that your case was elevated to the status of an adult and that you were charged and convicted on the adult level as opposed to being adjudicated as a minor even though you were 17 when this happened (if I'm understanding this correctly). I think that tells us that the prosecutors in your state thought this was bad enough to warrant that, which works against you.
However, many years have gone by since the incident, and if you consult with your lawyer, you might be able to find a way to apply and ultimately
get licensed as a physician. I would hope that some ADCOM members would be more forgiving about a mistake made when you were young.
However, many years have gone by since the incident, and if you consult with your lawyer, you might be able to find a way to apply and ultimately
get licensed as a physician. I would hope that some ADCOM members would be more forgiving about a mistake made when you were young.
It's actually a very common thing to be charged as an adult - there were lots of 14, 15, and 16 year olds I met in jail that were being charged for car theft and the like. My first cellmate was 15 and turned 16 a few days before I turned 18 - he and his friends robbed his charter school's TV's (lol, why...). Point is, it's way more unusual to not be charged as an adult for most felonies when you're 16+.
You are getting super worked up in this thread, and you have repeatedly said that it is because OP is such a terrible person and potential colleague on moral grounds. You don't get to say "let's defer to society because I don't really care about ethics" then attack OP on ethical grounds if you want to sound in any way reasonable.
Maybe you seriously do think that what society considers bad is what is morally bad. In that case, you are deferring to society at large as an authority on important matters. Doing this means you cannot accept things like evolution or the validity of vaccines since society at large does not accept these things. Maybe you think that ethics is a special subject which should be left to society at large, but you have no real justification for this.
Dude you are way off topic and misguided in my humble opinion (still majority believe in vaccines and evolution)...
If a person commits arson, others are entitled to be upset by it. People are not obligated to forgive and forget.
I again will point out...you are giving leeway and benefit of the doubt to someone who committed arson and are trying to put together a philosophical argument against someone who isn't fond of them after their action.
Bizarre
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OP,
You made a very big mistake when you were a teenager. You paid your debt to society and have been able to move on with your life. However, your actions will continue to have consequences. I do not think medical school is in your future because of the severity of your crime. I'm not trying to be an ahole, but you put yourself out there for a reaction and this is the one you are going to get.
I think your med school dreams are unrealistic because I don't think adcoms will be okay with overlooking it. There are so many qualified applicants, why would they pick a former felon? I would be worried about licensure later on in your career, but you should probably consult a lawyer for that. Finally, while you say you have matured greatly since the event, in your posts here you keep downplaying the seriousness of what you did, and even implied that it all ended up being okay in the end (so it's fine). You also seem to believe that others would have done the same thing in your position, or that your actions were justified. They weren't.
Perhaps if you were planning on applying in your 30s you may have a better chance.
You made a very big mistake when you were a teenager. You paid your debt to society and have been able to move on with your life. However, your actions will continue to have consequences. I do not think medical school is in your future because of the severity of your crime. I'm not trying to be an ahole, but you put yourself out there for a reaction and this is the one you are going to get.
I think your med school dreams are unrealistic because I don't think adcoms will be okay with overlooking it. There are so many qualified applicants, why would they pick a former felon? I would be worried about licensure later on in your career, but you should probably consult a lawyer for that. Finally, while you say you have matured greatly since the event, in your posts here you keep downplaying the seriousness of what you did, and even implied that it all ended up being okay in the end (so it's fine). You also seem to believe that others would have done the same thing in your position, or that your actions were justified. They weren't.
Perhaps if you were planning on applying in your 30s you may have a better chance.
D
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OP,
Regardless of how you feel about your actions. When discussing them with other people, the safest explanation is simply, "I was a dumb kid in a situation I couldn't handle and I really messed up. It was wrong, there was no excuse and all I can do now is make better decisions each day"
Just as someone who conducts interview in other fields, you need to completely wipe phrases like, "what would you have done?" and, "the fire saved my family" from your vocabulary. Your life will never be improved with those statements.
I think medical school is unlikely for you, but other meaningful careers can still happen...but you harm your chances at those careers if you don't take a real hard look at how people react to your explanations
Regardless of how you feel about your actions. When discussing them with other people, the safest explanation is simply, "I was a dumb kid in a situation I couldn't handle and I really messed up. It was wrong, there was no excuse and all I can do now is make better decisions each day"
Just as someone who conducts interview in other fields, you need to completely wipe phrases like, "what would you have done?" and, "the fire saved my family" from your vocabulary. Your life will never be improved with those statements.
I think medical school is unlikely for you, but other meaningful careers can still happen...but you harm your chances at those careers if you don't take a real hard look at how people react to your explanations
I'm not making a judgment here one way or another as to whether you should be given a pass by medical schools regarding your criminal history--that said, I have noticed massive holes in your logic, and a dangerous tendency to justify your past choices. I mean, seriously, has no burning structure ever gotten out of control to the point to damage surrounding structures and kill the people in those? Just because your family wasn't home, doesn't mean other families weren't. Just because most of your belongings could be spared doesn't mean you didn't risk those belonging to other families.
It seems your family came out okay, and that you are a "better" person for having gained some perspective on life, etc., but the major thing that has been discussed in this thread is you and yours. You have not really acknowledged that your actions put others in genuine danger, and that is problematic in my opinion.
I'm obviously not on an admission committee, but if I were, my thoughts would not be about how you've learned from your experience, or how you've paid your debt to society, or even how you've shown your dedication to the field of medicine. Honestly, because of how you've framed this past of experience of yours here, I would be nervous about what you may be capable of if you didn't get accepted. Would such rejection throw off your balance and possibly cause you to justify some destructive behaviors? Could not getting an acceptance threaten to damage the zen you've developed over all these years, and throw you into a downward spiral?
Dude, you misunderstood my post.
Bro, I never said that people can't be upset. That has nothing to do with what I wrote at all.
The argument is that you can't make moral judgments while dismissing any moral argument without sounding like those kids that say that no one has a right to question their beliefs no matter how illogical they are.
I was simply pointing out the logical contradiction in his appeal to the masses for moral judgement, but thank you for the red herring/straw man.
Sometimes I feel prosecution can be too trigger happy. And a lot of OP's situation right now is result of his environment. Had he been charged in another state, or a good lawyer, he might have been charged as a juvenile. More states are moving away from automatically charging 17 year-olds as adults in felony cases, and he could have his record sealed by now. The justice system can be so unfair sometimes, where manslaughter can be written off as affluenza if you have the right lawyers while the hammer comes down much harder for those who can only afford public defenders (I assume OP didn't have the money to hire some A-list lawyer based on his posts).
I'm not saying OP deserves a second chance to become an MD, I really don't know. The field of medicine is also very conservative for very good reasons. But I also feel like he really got the shorter end of that stick and he shouldn't keep on getting slammed by the society after the official sanction against him is over.
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As a society we tend to treat people who have been incarcerated like shet. I think there is a fair argument to be made that people who have done their time should be given a second chance. However, I'm not convinced that OP will be able to make it into medical school with his record/this soon after being in prison.
Not to mention, their downplay of how what they did wasn't so terrible.
Very much this
What's bananas about many of the positive, encouraging posts directed at OP is that these same people would probably discourage an applicant from applying who had an Institutional Action on their record for maybe cheating on a test or underage drinking/drug use on campus. If ours is a system where someone with a felony can get into medical school over a student who cheated on a General Bio exam fall semester freshman year, then ours is a seriously effed system.
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OP, you burnt down your house. Even if nobody was home, think of the damage you did cause and you could have caused. What if another house was nearby and caught fire? What if the house collapsed on a firefighter trying to extinguish the blaze? Your actions were and remain to be inexcusable. Your actions could have easily caused many worse things to happen. I would not feel safe with you as my doctor, and I feel many medical schools would agree with this sentiment. Just because nobody came to harm does not mean the action is excusable. If something went worse (such as someone being home, firefighters getting injured, etc), you would be doing an even greater amount of time. Medical schools will surely consider this.
OP, I will not say it's impossible, but it will be very hard. But to give you hope, look up the story of William James Bresnahan, Jr. In 1964, At 16 he killed both of his parents while on a camping trip (he alleged abuse by both parents), stabbing his mom and bludgeoning his father. He admitted to the murders and received two life sentences. While incarcerated, he took classes from the University of Colorado, graduated with a 4.0 and was paroled in 1977 after having his sentence commuted to 24 years. In 1978, he was accepted to the University of Colorado School of Medicine and has been working ever since he graduated. He received an unconditional pardon for his crimes in 1987.
So it can be done, but it will be a long and difficult road.
So it can be done, but it will be a long and difficult road.
OP, maybe the best advice you can get from these boards is to take what you read here with a grain of salt and talk to people that actually know what they are talking about and advice on what to do in these situations. SDN, particularly pre-allo, is like the blind leading the blind. Very few people have been in your shoes so not many can give you actual real advice on the steps you might not need to take. Your only chance is getting your record expunged so talk to lawyers, talk to admissions maintaining as much privacy as possible, talk to licensing boards and figure out what is possible and what is not.
For all those quick to give their opinion on whether anyone should or should not be a doctor (an opinion no one asked for) just remember you are not an adcom, you have no say in who your colleagues are. Some of the people sitting next to you will not come even close to passing your moral/ethical sniff test. I've had classmates that drive drunk, do drugs, commited crimes, cheated in college. You name it, someone's done it. They just didn't get caught. I'm not implying murderers are great candidates for working with patients, let's be real, but people should be able to pay their debt to society and go on to live a functional life if they really can turn their life around. What's important is patient safety not upholding the moral awesomeness of physicians.
Being a physician does not give you some moral high ground where you must hold yourself to a higher bar than society - that would be a God complex that you are channeling. Doctors are humans. They make mistakes, they do great things too. Some are amazing people, some are horrendous. Doctors are HUMANS! Please let go of this holier than thou attitude that doctors are better in some magical way. It's so far from true.
Good luck OP.
For all those quick to give their opinion on whether anyone should or should not be a doctor (an opinion no one asked for) just remember you are not an adcom, you have no say in who your colleagues are. Some of the people sitting next to you will not come even close to passing your moral/ethical sniff test. I've had classmates that drive drunk, do drugs, commited crimes, cheated in college. You name it, someone's done it. They just didn't get caught. I'm not implying murderers are great candidates for working with patients, let's be real, but people should be able to pay their debt to society and go on to live a functional life if they really can turn their life around. What's important is patient safety not upholding the moral awesomeness of physicians.
Being a physician does not give you some moral high ground where you must hold yourself to a higher bar than society - that would be a God complex that you are channeling. Doctors are humans. They make mistakes, they do great things too. Some are amazing people, some are horrendous. Doctors are HUMANS! Please let go of this holier than thou attitude that doctors are better in some magical way. It's so far from true.
Good luck OP.
Some medical schools that I have seen said that they give special consideration to convicted felons believe it or not.
Are you URM? Don't want to start a fire storm, but you need all the help you can get.
I would drop medicine and go into law. They are forgiving if you say "I have been through the criminal system. I served my time and am a reformed man now. I want to go into criminal law in order to right xyz wrongs." I've seen it happen and have friends who used that narrative to get into law school.
In my state, expunging records =/= sealing up records. If someone expunges their record, they can overturn a felony conviction so that it appears dismissed even if they serve hard time. The catch is that the charge will still show up, and the status is "dismissed" rather than "convicted". Sealing up the records in my state means that the charges will not show up at all and it doesn't show up on your record. So expunging your records can still open you up to questioning from adcom since it might still come up depending on your state. I don't know. you should check and grill your lawyer about this minutia because it gets over looked a lot.
Of course I have to put this here since I don't want to be sued
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and have no legal training. I don't even know the state that you are in and my opinions are for entertainment purposes and should not be taken as legal counsel. Please seek legal advice from a lawyer who passed the bar in your state as I don't know what I am talking about. Please ignore everything that I wrote above because I am an idiot.
Are you URM? Don't want to start a fire storm, but you need all the help you can get.
I would drop medicine and go into law. They are forgiving if you say "I have been through the criminal system. I served my time and am a reformed man now. I want to go into criminal law in order to right xyz wrongs." I've seen it happen and have friends who used that narrative to get into law school.
In my state, expunging records =/= sealing up records. If someone expunges their record, they can overturn a felony conviction so that it appears dismissed even if they serve hard time. The catch is that the charge will still show up, and the status is "dismissed" rather than "convicted". Sealing up the records in my state means that the charges will not show up at all and it doesn't show up on your record. So expunging your records can still open you up to questioning from adcom since it might still come up depending on your state. I don't know. you should check and grill your lawyer about this minutia because it gets over looked a lot.
Of course I have to put this here since I don't want to be sued
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and have no legal training. I don't even know the state that you are in and my opinions are for entertainment purposes and should not be taken as legal counsel. Please seek legal advice from a lawyer who passed the bar in your state as I don't know what I am talking about. Please ignore everything that I wrote above because I am an idiot.
My sister was convicted of a misdemeanor marijuana possession charge at 15, charged as juvenile. As an adult you're told the record is expunged. However, she attempted to join the military and it did show up on her background check. It's not always completely gone. (I live in PA, but this is obviously a federal thing).
Also, OP, as a child of terrible circumstances, I feel for you. I'm sure you felt hopeless and at the time rationalized there was nothing else you could do. However, this rationality must stop. You cannot keep justifying any of this in anyway if you want anyone to take you seriously. It was a terrible thing and thank god nobody was hurt. What you did potentially could have gotten more out of hand than it did and you have to own up to that.
As far as medical school goes, don't give up on it unless there's a reason not to. Basically if adcoms and medical schools literally tell you there's no way. Just my 0.02$.
As far as medical school goes, don't give up on it unless there's a reason not to. Basically if adcoms and medical schools literally tell you there's no way. Just my 0.02$.
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You're talking about admissions in a different era.
That would not go down today, I promise you.
OP, another thing to consider is if your name shows up even on basic searches like Google. Last thing you want is to have records expunged and sealed and then once you start medical school, someone finds out you committed arson in the past and the administration gets wind of it.
Truthfully, I think you'd have an easier time getting in any other career besides physician and pharmacy (you may have licensing issues as well), but I do hope the best for you no matter what happens.
Truthfully, I think you'd have an easier time getting in any other career besides physician and pharmacy (you may have licensing issues as well), but I do hope the best for you no matter what happens.
You're making it sound like the OP killed or raped someone... relax.
You're a physician, but you're neither a lawyer, ethicist, judge or someone who seems to have had much ethics/philosophy training. Your arguments, to be blunt, are pretty darn poor. I am tempted to break apart what you've written point by weak point. We'll see if time, and my raised BP when reading your posts allow this.
In general, I am writing this to express the idea that physicians, while amazing in many ways, are not experts on everything. And can have some pretty gosh awful ideas on many things. I hope the MDs behind our names don't make us forever stubborn and unaware of our knowledge gaps.
He could have killed somebody, multiple people infact.
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