KY2007

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Here in the good ole US of A we do things a little different. If you can't afford to get that tumor removed from your head, well you just go to the hospital and have it removed anyway. Then when the bill for $150,000 dollars comes in the mail, we just go ahead and throw it in the trash with all the other junk mail. :) j
 

ku06

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46 million is a gross overestimate from what I've heard. Some undershoot 30 mil others overshoot it, but when these "studies" are said and done it comes out somewhere around 30 mil. Many of these people choose not to have healthcare. Where I work, I am given health insurance. Many of the other 23 year olds and up do not take the health insurance because they want to go buy alcohol and party instead. This is actually fairly common. If you can't afford healthcare there is medicaid in our country which is insurance for the poor! If you do not qualify for medicaid that means you can afford healthcare (you may have to sacrifice that cell phone, cable television package, vacation, cigarettes, etc.). The reason so many people do not have insurance is because they are taking advantage of the system. If they get sick they get help through the emergency rooms and catholic hospitals and then declare bankruptcy so that don't have to pay. They take their chances and buy a nicer car instead of health insurance because health insurance is not fun. It should be illegal to live without health insurance just like its illegal to drive without car insurance. If you can't afford it then the government can provide a safety net until you get back on your feet and can afford it.
 

SPBest

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KY2007 said:
Here in the good ole US of A we do things a little different. If you can't afford to get that tumor removed from your head, well you just go to the hospital and have it removed anyway. Then when the bill for $150,000 dollars comes in the mail, we just go ahead and throw it in the trash with all the other junk mail. :) j
That is so true! I had insurance but my claim was denied for a $12,000 surgery (I even had preauthorization) and I ended up paying it all out of pocket during my first year in dental school. The only thing that kept me from tossing the bill is needing good credit for school loans and practice acquisition (oh yeah, good conscience too).

ku06 said:
46 million is a gross overestimate from what I've heard. Some undershoot 30 mil others overshoot it, but when these "studies" are said and done it comes out somewhere around 30 mil. Many of these people choose not to have healthcare. Where I work, I am given health insurance. Many of the other 23 year olds and up do not take the health insurance because they want to go buy alcohol and party instead. This is actually fairly common. If you can't afford healthcare there is medicaid in our country which is insurance for the poor! If you do not qualify for medicaid that means you can afford healthcare (you may have to sacrifice that cell phone, cable television package, vacation, cigarettes, etc.). The reason so many people do not have insurance is because they are taking advantage of the system. If they get sick they get help through the emergency rooms and catholic hospitals and then declare bankruptcy so that don't have to pay. They take their chances and buy a nicer car instead of health insurance because health insurance is not fun. It should be illegal to live without health insurance just like its illegal to drive without car insurance. If you can't afford it then the government can provide a safety net until you get back on your feet and can afford it.
Very well put! The biggest problem for access to care seems to be that access isn't as easy as walking out one's front door, some people demand that it be that easy, after they're entitled aren't they?
 

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ku06 said:
46 million is a gross overestimate from what I've heard. Some undershoot 30 mil others overshoot it, but when these "studies" are said and done it comes out somewhere around 30 mil. Many of these people choose not to have healthcare. Where I work, I am given health insurance. Many of the other 23 year olds and up do not take the health insurance because they want to go buy alcohol and party instead. This is actually fairly common. If you can't afford healthcare there is medicaid in our country which is insurance for the poor! If you do not qualify for medicaid that means you can afford healthcare (you may have to sacrifice that cell phone, cable television package, vacation, cigarettes, etc.). The reason so many people do not have insurance is because they are taking advantage of the system. If they get sick they get help through the emergency rooms and catholic hospitals and then declare bankruptcy so that don't have to pay. They take their chances and buy a nicer car instead of health insurance because health insurance is not fun. It should be illegal to live without health insurance just like its illegal to drive without car insurance. If you can't afford it then the government can provide a safety net until you get back on your feet and can afford it.[/QUO


Very true!!!!!!!
 
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Fullosseousflap

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Mithridates said:
Canadian here. I agree, those are some pretty sad and horrible statistics. I wasn't surprised (but was still sad) to see those stats about Canada. Like waiting 3 months for an MRI. Canada/Britain have a very different health care system than the US. But in Canada, things may move a little slower, and this may affect the progression of illness, but at least everyone who needs it will eventually get it. The US has a disgusting disparity in health care when socio-economic factors are played in. I read an article the other day that says that 46 million americans have no health insurance whatsoever. Sucks to be them huh?! What do you do if you get cancer, and have no money or health insurance. Your ability to access health care in Canada/Britain does not depend on the amount of money you have. Although it has its problems, Health Care in Canada is quite simply amazing.

I know that some of what I've said has a pretty high *flame* index. It's a controversial issue. I'm just playing devil's advocate here. So, please be nice. :luck:
Nobody here in California is turned away, including the millions of illegal immigrants from Mexico.

Just because you do not have private health insurance does not mean you do not have access to care. All of California's countys have hospitals and public health clinics where the indigent, and working poor can go for care. No one is turned away.

I don't mean to flame either but I have known many patients from Canada that have come to the USA for their private dentistry and medicine. I suppose they did not want to wait. :smuggrin:
 
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Fullosseousflap

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Mithridates said:
I don't think anyone's really flaming me here. I'm learning a little more about the US healthcare system with these posts. But you say people come to the US for private dentistry. That's B.S. Medicine, yes, but not dentistry. Dentistry is pretty much the same - private.
No, you are wrong. I have had several families who lived in California during the Canadian dreadful winters and returned there in the summer come to me for their dentistry. I was their dentist and would call me from Canada if they had a problem with a family member during their summers.

They did not like the Canadian dentists, the Canadian system and preferred the American quallity.
 
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Fullosseousflap

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Mithridates said:
I never said it was free.

Canada's policy is that everyone looks after everyone else. It's a community. In America, it seems that a person's illness is their individual problem. But the truth is that it isn't. Poor people getting sick and having related financial problems hurts everyone, the rich and the poor.
And remember Canada is a much smaller country than the USA.

But, we were discussing the British NHS and their socialized system.

The U. K is not a small country like Canada.
 
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Fullosseousflap

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Mithridates said:
So, are you saying that they didn't like Canadian-trained dentists? Or that they just have a problem with Canadians. Grab a catalogue of dentists in the toronto area from the Ontario Dental Association, and you'll find that a whole bunch of them (I wouldn't be surprised to guess 20%) are trained at US schools.
I am just stating what they told me!
 

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In America we are individuals. There is no one who can get the job better done than yourself. This type of attitude is what makes us a hard working industrous people that have done quite well in the world for sometime. You may disagree with this philosophy, but I buy into it whole heartedly. You need to rely on yourself. If you fall on hard times though, we know the feeling and have been there too. The government is there as a safety net to help pick you up (medicaid, welfare, etc.). People do not fall on hard times though for their entire lives if they are working hard as an individual. I do not believe in entitlement, but I do believe in TEMPORARY safety nets. The problem is these safety nets quickly become a permanent solution for a loss of desire to improve yourself.
 

KY2007

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Mithridates said:
Throw it in the trash, and get all kinds of credit problems?! Sure, you can get the healthcare, but then what? Then you gotta worry about money afterwards. Is that okay with you guys? I think that when someone's really sick, they should just have to worry about getting better.

Money and medicine just don't mix.
I don't think that good credit is an issue with many people on the bottom of the socioeconomic scale. If your pulling down $18,000 per year and have a family of 4, its not like your going to go out and buy a house or a new car. Besides their credit is already bad from not paying the light bill on time. I'm not making fun of them, this is just one of the sad facts of american culture. When your poor you prioritize and food definately comes first. With this being said I prefer our way to anyone elses. Some people may not have insurance, and some may not even have a car. However, I don't see many malnourished people around.
 
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Fullosseousflap

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Mithridates said:
I understand. You were just retelling what they had told you. I guess I took it the wrong way because of this statement:



There is no waiting for dentistry in Canada. For the most part, it's private like in the US. There's no situation in which someone who could afford american dental services can't get canadian dental services.

Medicine is a whole other story, and since this is a dental forum, maybe we should leave it at that. :luck:
Ok, so let's talk some dentistry. Are you a dential student or pre-dent?

Does your Canadian medicare system pay for any dentistry for children? or the indigent? Or poor children and the poor elderly?

The American medicaid system does. This is organized by each state but the federal government contributes - and contributes alot.

It was my understanding that poor children in Canada have to wait an inordinate amount of time for care. Is this true?
 

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Mithridates said:
I couldn't disagree with this more. Tell this to someone who has MS, Parkinson's Disease, or some sort of other debilitating long-term disease. Every human being on earth is entitled to health care, no matter how little or how hard they work. In this post, you act like health care should be something you budget for like paying the rent, groceries, etc. People's health is too important a thing to be dealt with in this way.
Every human ENTITLED to health care? I hope I don't sound too callous, but give me a break. The only thing we are entitled to is to have equal opportunities. What you do with those opportunities is your own business.
 
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Fullosseousflap

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No, food is more important than healthcare. That's why people take care of that themselves , and why most are successful in doing so. I wouldn't trust any government to be the sole supplier of my nutrition.

I think that ultimately, socialized medicine is a moral issue. Having more money can buy you a better health insurance plan than what someone could get if they were poor. Say two people have the exact same illness. One works hard but is poor, the other works hard but is wealthy. Does the wealthier person deserve a higher quality of health care than the poor person just because they have more money. Are the wealthier more entitled to relief of pain and suffering? I guess if you can understand my reasoning here, you can understand why I like socialized medicine.

I feel like in this thread, there's sorta been an attitude that how much money you have is a direct result of how hard you work, or your desire to get on top. I disagree with this.

Fullosseus, I'm a first year dental student in Boston.
I posted this link on another section of this site about the NHS in Britain.

Check it out here.

Socialized medicine and/or dentistry healthcare delivery systems are flawed - as demonstrated aptly by the above case, which is one of many.

The NHS in Britain cannot find enough dentists in the U.K to treat all of the patients demanding their government supplied care - just like the medicare medical system in Canada.

More later....
 

TucsonDDS

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KY2007 said:
Here in the good ole US of A we do things a little different. If you can't afford to get that tumor removed from your head, well you just go to the hospital and have it removed anyway. Then when the bill for $150,000 dollars comes in the mail, we just go ahead and throw it in the trash with all the other junk mail. :) j


That pretty much sums it up. And you don't even have to wait 3 months for the MRI, they just do it when you walk into the ER. OF course that all depends on whether you pick the right hospital.
 

TucsonDDS

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KY2007 said:
I don't think that good credit is an issue with many people on the bottom of the socioeconomic scale. If your pulling down $18,000 per year and have a family of 4, its not like your going to go out and buy a house or a new car. Besides their credit is already bad from not paying the light bill on time. I'm not making fun of them, this is just one of the sad facts of american culture. When your poor you prioritize and food definately comes first. With this being said I prefer our way to anyone elses. Some people may not have insurance, and some may not even have a car. However, I don't see many malnourished people around.


Actually with my tenants I think that cigarettes come first. But I agree 100%
 

TucsonDDS

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Mithridates said:
I couldn't disagree with this more. Tell this to someone who has MS, Parkinson's Disease, or some sort of other debilitating long-term disease. Every human being on earth is entitled to health care, no matter how little or how hard they work. In this post, you act like health care should be something you budget for like paying the rent, groceries, etc. People's health is too important a thing to be dealt with in this way.


So anyone who cant afford dental work we can send over to you??
 
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Fullosseousflap

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Mithridates said:
maybe I haven't made myself clear. When I say health care I mean medical care, like from an MD. When I mean dental care, I say dental care.
I could be mean here but I withdraw from this behavior!

Socialism is just bad...get over it! :idea:
 

TucsonDDS

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Mithridates said:
maybe I haven't made myself clear. When I say health care I mean medical care, like from an MD. When I mean dental care, I say dental care.


The problem here is that poor oral health many times leads to poor systemic health. The country sure would save a lot of money if the little old lady had some properly fitted dentures for $1500 and wasn't in the hospital at $1500/day trying to treat her for malnutrition/failure to thrive. I know where you are coming from though but I think of a persons right to healthcare a little differently. I feel that all people should have access to healthcare as long as they are a productive member of society or are physically unable to produce. There are millions of people in this country that are definitely productive but unable to afford health care. This is not fair at all. I say cut off all of the crack whores, transients, useless peices of crap that sit on the couch drinking all day long beating their kids and start providing for the people who pick the food we eat, wash our cars and maintain our country, I could care less if they are a citizen or not as long as they are supporting the economy.
 
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Fullosseousflap

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Mithridates said:
what were you gonna say? That dental care is health care? If so, I agree. In canada they use those words to make the distinction.

Hey man, as long as you're not blatently flaming me, it's okay to say stuff. I think I've learned a lot from this thread. Just because you say something that contradicts what I have said, doesn't make it mean.

As for socialism being bad, you can lick my balls. :p But seriously, look at where you're saying that from. You're prob. a pretty successful dentist. You don't have to worry about having lower tier health care. But I guess that's the american philosophy, right? Every man for himself.
Hahahaha....no I won't!

It is late and I am busted up here laughing.

I don't want to patronize you or flame you. But, don't take the socialism argument lightly. There are unintended consequences for the best of intentions. Examples are everywhere in the U.K and Canada.

I will post more over time.

Yeah and all of us Yanks are cowboy individualists. :laugh:
 

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The US has a disgusting disparity in health care when socio-economic factors are played in. I read an article the other day that says that 46 million americans have no health insurance whatsoever. Sucks to be them huh?!
PLEASE explain to me why lack of insurance sucks! You're just aping the liberal politicians' solution to the access to care problem in the US. 1. IMHO, insurance is the root cause to the current situation. In the second half of the last century when health insurance became a common benny at work, health costs skyrocketed. When someone else is footing the bill, you're not going to check the price being paid.
2. Maybe there isn't as big of an access-to-care problem as some say. Anecdotally, some of my Medicaid patients even with care at no cost to them will not take advantage of it. Even if we had socialized medicine, we would still have probems, as we see in other countries. Some don't know any better, some fear the doctor/dentist, some feel what they don't know won't hurt them and some just don't give a damn.
3. Dentistry essentially is a pay-for-service system and is healthier than it has ever been. Physician's are envious of us. See WSJ article of a couple of months ago.
 
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Fullosseousflap

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Mithridates said:
LIke, check this out: [pdf file]http://www.familiesusa.org/site/DocServer/holesreport.pdf?docID=662

The problem with fullosseus' voucher idea is that there's always gonna be people left out.
The report you reference is very dated. Publication was July 2001 and referenced data from as far back as 1997.

Also, the organization which produced the report is a left wing consumer organization which supports a single payer healthcare delivery system AKA Socailized HealthCare in the USA.

BTW you never answered my questions about Canadian dentistry a few posts ago. Care to give it a go?

And believe me... no one is left out here from the healthcare system.

Go here for another disgraceful story about U.K. Healthcare System.
 
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Fullosseousflap

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Mithridates said:
Oh yeah, that's back when Nixon was in office and I could buy a cup of coffee for 20 cents. My mistake.


So this makes their statistics and tables irrelevant? :confused:
Were you alive back in 1968?

Hell, I was in high school and wasn't even drinking coffee then.

And yeah.... the facts and figures are biased and weighted in favor of their agenda - a single universal payer system ala Big Government run and Managed Healthcare. And the data is OLD!
 

gumgardener2009

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Mithridates said:
I'm well aware of the ways data can be manipulated. However, I feel that you can make better generalizations about medical care by looking at possibly skewed statistics, than by looking at one case study about suzie poo in the UK who had to go to the US to get diagnosed correctly. The point I was trying to make is that there are no canadian citizens who don't have structured medical care. You could not make a report like that in canada.

Please someone answer me this: Imagine you are one of those unfortunate people who don't qualify for medicaid or medicare, can't afford a private health plan, and don't get a health plan for work. If you get sick you can get treated, but if those costs are so huge that you can't pay them off, what do you do?!! aside from filing for bankruptcy which is a bullsh*t option

Is bankruptcy the only option.
I can see why you don't understand my first point. It's because you're a socialist. What I was trying to say is that health insurance provided at work and government healthcare take basic economic supply and demand out of the picture. People aren't making their healthcare decisions on how much it costs, but on what the government or their insurance company provides. If it is not covered then they bitch to the doctor that it's too expensive. If it is covered they don't blink an eye to whatever the cost is.
That is in regards to the "run of the mill healthcare needs", but when it comes to cosmetic or elective surgeries it's another story. The media along with plastic surgeons and dentists have convinced people that they need a Hollywood smile and a boob job. Insurance doesn't cover this stuff but people somehow find the money to feed their vanity. I recently had dinner with a couple of pediatricians who were bitching that parents don't want to cover the doctor's costs beyond what insurance is willing to cover but these same people will put down thousands for veneers.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is a disconnect between what people want and what they are willing to pay. The medical profession hasn't helped the problem by encouraging people to make decisions according to their insurance coverage. Dentistry has mostly avoided this problem, not entirely of their own doing. Since dental benefits have never been as good as medical benefits, a dentist has to sell (god forbid that we're capitalists) his/her treatment plans on its merits to each patient. Because of the invisible hand of the market dentals costs could not grow at as fast of a rate as medical costs. It just so happens that in this the "golden age" of dentistry there is a convergence of vanity and technology that allows us to provide patients with high end cosmetic restorations that they are willing to pay top dollar for. But I guarantee you that with such demand there will come supply and that will push prices down or at least keep them the same. For example, when LASIK surgery first came out I believe it was 2000 per eye and now it's 1000 for both.
 

mike3kgt

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Fullosseousflap said:
Alright we need a bit of levity to break up the discussion.

Click here and find out Canada's hidden socialistic healthcare agenda.
We need more SDNers/dentists like you... keep up the fight!

-Mike
 

ku06

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You guys do have a lot of land, but then again so much of it is literally wasteland where no one lives. I think a more appropriate map is the one where it shows a satellite view of the earth at night. This allows you to see relative population densities.
 

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Mithridates said:
I'm well aware of the ways data can be manipulated. However, I feel that you can make better generalizations about medical care by looking at possibly skewed statistics, than by looking at one case study about suzie poo in the UK who had to go to the US to get diagnosed correctly. The point I was trying to make is that there are no canadian citizens who don't have structured medical care. You could not make a report like that in canada.

Please someone answer me this: Imagine you are one of those unfortunate people who don't qualify for medicaid or medicare, can't afford a private health plan, and don't get a health plan for work. If you get sick you can get treated, but if those costs are so huge that you can't pay them off, what do you do?!! aside from filing for bankruptcy which is a bullsh*t option

Is bankruptcy the only option.
Actually no it isn't. Here in CA. and also at least AZ, health and dental insurance is part of public wellfare. That means just about everyone can be covered if they want it.

The people that don't have insurance and are using hospital emergency rooms for primary medical care are mostly illegal immegrants.
 

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Hey Mithridates,

Fellow Canadian here! I completely agree with our socialist attitude here in Canada. We're in this together, as a dentist who will be in a high tax category, I will not mind paying the extra taxes to ensure that myself and other Canadians are being taken care of equally. To me paying a few extra thousands a year will not be a big deal to help out those who are not fortunate enough to have as much as me. Though the US is a great country, I definitely plan on coming back to Canada to practice because I love what our country stands for.
 
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Fullosseousflap

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Mithridates said:
Hey buddy! Nice to meet someone else from TO, and someone who shares my ideals. Yeah, I totally won't mind paying high taxes for great social welfare and universal medical care for all. I'm still unclear about this american system though. But I was talking to some of my american classmates the other day, and all agreed that a large segment of the population is marginalized. Most said they would prefer the canadian system. I also plan on going back up to canada, so long as I don't get hitched with some american hottie. :luck:
Canada is a beautiful country and has a great people.

I have alot of friends in B.C. and Alberta.

Glacier National Park and Waterton Lakes National Park are two of my favorite parts of the world.

Kelowna and Peachland in British Columbia are also very nice.

But, did you mates know that the USA spends as much of their GNP (pro-rated due to population) as does Canada? In fact, we may spend a little more on public or government supported healthcare.

However, our system runs better - why? Less government control!
 

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Mithridates said:
So this makes their statistics and tables irrelevant? :confused:
Yes.

Figures can't lie but liars can figure!