Crayola's WW Diatribes

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I take seering as, "great, this is of limited but great usefulness at the moment." Like I will put someone on a shelf if they seer village, but keep in mind "confirmed village" make for great WIFOM convert choices later. It only clears someone for the time being, assuming the seer result wasn't flawed. I'm not saying seering doesn't make a difference, it puts someone last on your list and you focus elsewhere, but that's not indefinitely or in the face of other data.
 
mafia wiki is reminding me of something I used to do as a noob that I have been forgetting to do recently, which is look up what role you have really quick to get strategy tips

I was seer once as a noob, and it's a big responsibility because you know it's really important to village, but you also know that if you aren't smart you will at best be useless in choosing targets and communicating results on thread, and at worst get your ass munched pronto by the wolves, since you know they will be on you like white on rice
 
yeah I agree, which is why I think it's an unfair advantage to mod mostly as a way to learn the game, I think modding for the purpose of running a game because it needs/wants to be done is one thing

playing is a different perspective, what I learn by actually wolfing with a player can never be approximated no matter how many games they are wolf and I am village. The RNG process is such that it preserves a lot of mystery, I've had to play a lot of games to even start to have the privilege of an inside view with a handful of players. It's a huge advantage to have been behind the scenes with any number of wolves. After a few years I can still say I've only seen briefly seen how players like you, Kara, genny, etc wolf.

The time I baby-modded felt like cheating somehow in terms of how quickly I came by insider knowledge. Not something I would do again if I didn't think I wanted to be responsible for putting games together in the future after paying dues and learning other players mostly by playing first.

Yeah knowing the inner workings of a player's wolf mind is such a huge advantage I feel it's best earned through actual play and the dice of the RNG for that reason.

Although as you see I don't remember anything so it's mostly a theoretical advantage other people have.
 
you still have to maintain some suspicion of your mason partner. You start out the game knowing they're not an original and have some headstart on villager circle of trust and elimination, but that's it. Like any other PM you have to be careful how much trust you place in anyone.
 
mho the only convert free games are ones where a mod tells you so, or you are told there are X number of conversions and you have very good authority they have been used up already and you know who those converts are

which isn't meant to make people get crazy about convert hunting, in my opinion once you accept the risk you can put it in its proper perspective and just focus more on wolf hunting, catching people being wolfy at any point that wolfy behavior rears its head
 
it keeps being these assumptions about how things work that limits thinking, like assuming that Coffee must win with wolves or villagers, and not as a 3rd party

that's what ultimately makes 3rd party truly dangerous to wolves, otherwise yeah who cares they're like just another villager (except they're not!)

or like other assumptions I've seen made

I get it, people don't know what they don't know, but more than anything WW taught me to question my assumptions. Which is why I'm good for nothing but poking holes thinking and not in ever figuring anything out.

It's frustrating because there are some truisms. 3rd party should die unless you've *really* determined some reason why they shouldn't or to hold off. Anyone can be converted anytime yet obsessing about it does nothing. Seering results are never 100% and even if they were they aren't true indefinitely. Even your mason or other PM partners can never be trusted 100%. You can rarely even trust mod-provided info like results.

Everything can be helpful and nothing is absolute.
 
no offense but this is why a player just being aggressive asking questions is not just proof of being a villager wolf-hunting

all wolves have to fake wolf hunting, and most just figure out a way to apply their typical favorite villager strategies, AM asks questions, I misremember wolf metas, Kara does post analysis, etc

Paws' question asking did nothing for me at the time of my death for putting her in either camp. I'm reading her interrogations right now and asking myself how I could have figured this out at any point.

What's more important is trying to discern the asker's true agenda, which is admittedly quite tough. That's the problem I have reading Paws and AM.

That's why I'm always praising AM's cryptic question asking. It makes her a real threat to wolves and also a good wolf. Paws has emerged as a similar player.

Thing is, if you do the question thing and you're don't really know what you're doing, it'll just be a lot of noise like my own posts.

It's hard to explain the sort of interrogation that is useful as a villager to help village, which when you then apply as a wolf makes good camo. But if you do the interrogation thing and it doesn't come off right, then you do just look like a wolf trying to look like a wolf hunter directing attention in the village where it suits you. Which isn't really a good look for a villager not to mention doesn't lead to great answers when you don't know what you're doing

when I see people doing the interrogation thing, I want to know why they are asking, and then I want to know what they make of the answers they're given
 
I always tell people that you have to be super careful at how much you use what a wolf says to determine who is or isn't clear.

No reason to spill all the wolf stuff into the thread - anything a wolf says is meant to redirect and cause suspicion, no matter how much truth is in it.

It needs to be handled like nitroglycerin
 
Whenever someone says, "You've pocketed me" I read it as code, "I'm trying to pocket you."

I know I say it sometimes to people as villager. Some players I consider more pocketable than others.

Maybe it's who it's coming from. As a noob I would really think twice if I was pocketing Mel of all players vs the other way round. The fact you said it twice....

Mel, that's a compliment to you.
 
Although usually even my village reads I'm saying they're sketch for this or that.

It's a defensive move too, if I have to move there later then the accusation "but you never said they might be sketch!" doesn't stick as well.

Since I haven't been doing those reads lately I'm being hit harder with that. Especially because I'm a hard core waffler, and one post can make me 180 on someone.

I think too people trust your reads more, Dubz. Village leader. Wolves have to kill your village suspects because they become harder to lynch. Wolves know people often can't understand me anyway, or believe me. Less harm done.

I read that it's often more important to take out villagers that are good leaders and are wrong than sketchy ones who are right.

Kara in that one game was wrong, but she was too good all around. Took her out before she could lead the villagers against us, which she totally could do.
 
NOTE: as time goes on, site meta and player metas change, when once someone was easy to lynch, with time that can change

Nah, don't seer the ones easy to lynch, if they're easy to lynch the village or wolves will do it for you, as seer you don't need to help anyone out the door unless it's wolf.

Trying to seer players like AM that frequently are going to get ragged on all game so you can go to bat for them.... great way to seem like the seer and get nightkilled, or to seem sketchy to village and get mislynched.

Seer making a plan to get involved in ties and late vote switching... mm, maybe not.

Look at the people like WZ, Pippy, LIS, genny. People that the village often sees as village and looks to, or are hard to lynch for other reasons (although wolves will be looking to NK them if hard to lynch too).

These sort of players are dangerous if wolves for so many reasons. They are town leaders, they can lead the village off the cliff sometimes, but point is, you at least want to know if village sheeps them that village is sheeping a villager at least.

Mel is easy to lynch but can do a ton of damage if he's a wolf. So he might be one to look into even if he isn't the sort of town leader that's hard to lynch,

Just my thoughts anyway, and not really original anyway.
 
So true. And whoever seems to respond on thread to vouch that person is likely to get NK if the wolves are smart to look for that.

Hardest part to me of any info role (like tracker!) is how to safely handle the info without getting killed, but without dying with it.
 
lol and that is the point where I have zero clues on these info roles! mm I would start on reading articles about scumhunting, getting them lynched, getting village to trust and believe you. If you can use typical vanillager techniques to get someone lynched using "logic" it would be less obvious you're using "insider" knowledge. That's key - you don't want to seem informed even if you are. Looks hella wolfy to everyone except wolves - and they'll know you have a PR if so.
 
also once you know they are wolf, it can be a little bit easier to go back and pick out what's wolfy or make a good case what is wolfy, that can sink them AND make it look like it's from thread

can still draw heat from wolves if you look like a good wolf hunter, but it's better than leading a lynch out of seeming no where
 
PippyPony said:
Are you typing all of this up now? If so, how do you type so fast?

If not, and this is compiled wisdom, is this going to turn into a occult legendary book like the Picatrix or Necronomicon?
Click to expand...
Some of it definitely spontaneous content as it's heavily influenced on the previous game. Excited to respond to these when I get some more time.
 
PippyPony said:
Are you typing all of this up now? If so, how do you type so fast?

If not, and this is compiled wisdom, is this going to turn into a occult legendary book like the Picatrix or Necronomicon?
Click to expand...
@Animal Midwife, Pippy is right, as I said in first post I am farming past convos, and hopefully also game theads, to compile this.

Because it was convos, and I was in a rush, I didn't get to include your guys' posts that give it all context, and is inspirational and good stuff. But not mine to give from a convo.
 
Animal Midwife said:
Some of it definitely spontaneous content as it's heavily influenced on the previous game. Excited to respond to these when I get some more time.
Click to expand...
Glad you're excited! Not from the current game though - this is from when Coffee was chaos, I think. Just goes to show how a lot of strategy stays relevant.
 
on why I don't think it's easier to learn this game at first as a wolf. Unless you're genny, statistically you are more likely to play as village most games, so regardless of how you learn the game (as villager or wolf), you need to know village play.

I know some people started off as wolves learning the game, this is jut my opinion on how learning villaging keeps you alive and playing better no matter what side you are.

Also about noobs and veterans.

Lawper said: ↑
Then here it's no surprise that the wolves are sweeping this. It's easier for a group of veterans to plan smartly and win the game effectively by swaying the village to their favor.

Crayola on noobs vs veterans:
It's easier for wolves to do that, period. Informed minority always, their only advantage against the majority being THAT - informed. It will always feel like there is someone out there that knows more that is manipulating things. That's not noob vs veteran most times - that's just wolf feel.

Honestly, I only find "noob" or "veteran" is just a way of looking at ONE individual player's game choice, and trying to decide what motivated it. It's kinda like, what kind of stupid is this?

I haven't followed this game closely so I can't say where it went wrong. Just don't take away the wrong lessons from this.

If you learn to analyze WW in terms of noob or villager.... just, no. Players you know are noobs, maybe, but they'll use that to fool as soon as they learn. Veterans'll make mistakes they'll pass off on you because you think they're above making them.

It's useful to play with veterans because you learn what smart play is while you flail. (I'm a flailer)

Total noob game? Well, you saw 😉

Lawper:
I need to improve my village play. Wolfing requires too much work and skill, and i can't pull it off. I need to improve my play and survive in the game (or at least avoid getting lynched and getting killed early) I wrote a super long treatise on gameplay, I put in spoilers because holy crap

Crayola on being villager:
A couple things really help.

Having a firm grip of your villager play style and meta. As I have played, I have made choices for consistency. I sorta had to, because a lot of my natural SDN style is sketchy as **** for WW (weird hours, lots of likes, lots of posts, lots of verbiage, circular logic, etc). Teaching village that this is Crayola village play has been essential. I recently got lynched for a couple of idiotic mistakes (I forgot to type "lynch" when I put in my lynch vote, only typing the player's name, that sort of thing), so any deviation from me just freaks people out.

When you are new you will frequently be "fear lynched" because if the village feels they don't know you, they can't read you, they can't trust you. Also you are likely making the sort of mistakes that make people wonder WTF your agenda is (and yes, it occurs to people that you might be agenda-less as a noob, but then it's WIFOM). Villagers are conservative, so they have low tolerance for behavior that is weird and not immediately villagery.

You don't have to adopt any given villager play style, and lots of people choose to be extremely unpredictable, chaotic, deceptive, silly, jokey, etc, and make that work. You just might get lynched less when people can say, "Oh, that's just Lawper being Lawper," no matter what style you are. You get lynched anyway but at least it might not be over the fact that you used too many !!!!!! if that's your thing. (I knew that was a Gryff thing and didn't take it as wolfy.)

Just, when you understand how to village and make more deliberate choices understanding how village is likely to react, you get better and get lynched less.

So one, having your village reputation established helps you wolf. Because you have a cover developed. Playing in earnest as a villager helps you figure out how to fake playing in earnest as a wolf.

Two, when you have learned how to think as village and wolf-hunt, you will find it easier to get in the heads of the villagers and understand how they will react to things and how to manipulate that. (In fact, this also helps you as village not to ring off villager alarm bells. I can't help myself so I often do those things anyway as village.)

Three, when you have established your rep and gotten to know other players, that helps your wolf game too, because you can get in the heads of *these* specific insane villagers.

Four, playing as village, you pick up tips and tricks for spotting wolves, so you can more easily use that to try to guide your wolf behavior. Ironically, I think it's less important to try to avoid all those things and try to appear "as not wolfy as possible at all times as villager and wolf" as it is to be consistent to yourself in gameplay.

This game, mafia (then adapted to be werewolf) was developed by some Russian college students for a class thing to illustrate some concepts in game theory about an informed minority and an uninformed majority. In some ways, you can see why a small criminal enterprise such as a mafia is able to create so many problems even with the full brunt of the US FBI and such against them.

A lot of people approach WW, as villager or wolf, with a lot of lies, obfuscations, etc. And I think for a lot of people that's really fun. I also think that's really fun for people playing with them. There's no way to play no matter what, and tell the whole truth all the time.

That said, I was really frustrated at being lynched and wanting to learn how to be a better villager (people kept yelling at me to do so, and I had no idea how) so I researched it online. I read somewhere, that while it would seem that being unpredictable and lying your ass off all the time would be a good strategy, but that whatever stats to test this, showed that consistent honest villager play is the best strategy for winning. This was true even as a wolf! (People would think that would hurt your wolf game, but personally, the only one time ever that I wolfed, so grain of salt, I didn't find that was the case. More problematic is the fact I usually attract a lot of suspicion even as a villager.) This was especially true when playing with the same group of people over and over. You might imagine why.

Keep in mind, most of my advice is how I learned to play here, and how I play here. If you go to like mafia.net or these other sites, and people don't know you, you might talk to Animal Midwife or some others. That's a bit different when people don't know you. I would imagine it's more important to toe the lines of what is and isn't appropriately looking village behavior. But I don't know, can't speak to it.

I focused on villager play for a lot of reasons. One, I knew statistically I would be village most of the time. Two, being deceptive and chaotic sounds exhausting to me. Three, I get really caught up, and I'm in it to win it. So I'm not a big chance-taker. In any case, four, knowing how to honest village/village cred helps your wolf game per game theory above. So that's my approach.

The nice thing about knowing someone's approach and thinking, is that you can decide what makes sense to you and works for you. It's also about what is fun for you and you can pull off and like your results. Sometimes someone shares their opinion on gameplay, and I decide I don't agree and use the opposite thinking. It still helped me make a game decision. There is NO magic recipe for success in this game, which is what makes it so diverse and full of surprise.

Also, the nature of the game makes it that nothing is ever 100% true for the most part. Including that statement, I'm sure some things are true all the time in this game, if only to make the first statement false. Paradox?

If it sounds like I think I'm the best player ever, no. I'm the sort of person that's good at collecting "theory" and then is sort of stupid at practical application. I have done some research and soul searching and know what makes sense to me, but if you read this and think, well, that's awfully stupid, or, that makes so much sense, why doesn't she play like that?? Well there you go.
 
Yeah I have a theory on gameplay. Do your damdest to put a frakking vote in every single day, and with a one sentence why if nothing else. Even if you won't explain further. There's legit reasons to miss it sometimes or stay quiet.

I'm cool with occasional abstaining (I've done it twice ever I think) but you should mention that and say why.

I get there might be strategic reasons not to give an explanation for a vote or draw attention to abstaining, but in my view, that should again be strategic conscious choice.

Just not bothering to vote or to slide under the radar really pisses me off. It's not great for village, if you're wolf doesn't make them look good, lazy. HAAAATE
 
I can't recall, Pip said something earlier that made me think she was PR or jailer, so when Genny brought that up, that for me, wasn't the clincher as I thought a villager could figure that out (as I, villager, did)

The wolfy difference in our behavior was that I wasn't telegraphing it on the thread, doing basic PR sniffing on different days. That made me think it was wolfy not village. Most villagers won't call someone's PR out on thread unless it's really needed. Wolves do, even if subtly.
 
as far as telling Finn everything, I was taking a risk that if she was a wolf I might get night-killed

not sure why I didn't think that would happen, but I've experienced more than once where a wolf decides you're not high on the list of people to take out if you tell them your ability, and you can continue to gather data points on them

also, if you really point out that you're PM'ing with someone on the open thread, are suspicious, and end up dead, it seems like people will look more closely at your PM partner
 
does she normally lurk this much? I feel like every minute I turn around she's liking a post just posted to the thread, but without posting

don't listen to anyone who says otherwise, I've caught wolves from post like analysis. It doesn't work for everyone, or anyone all the time, but it can

it's very easy too for wolves to accidentally preferentially be liking each others' posts on thread, I'm a like slut, so you better believe as a wolf I think twice about liking posts, if you just let your subconscious guide them as a wolf, you really could be sending messages you don't mean to

people say, "oh no that's not how my likes work" but if you're not being deliberate, than who are you to say what your likes are saying?

the reality is that my village play is sloppy, Stagg is right when I'm a wolf is the only time I can shut my mouth, and that's for the team. It's also that rather than improve my crappy village play, people are just used to it, and then it's just my job to emulate it as a wolf.
 
some players do the like and lurk thing

I am however wondering if I were to go back if I'd see a pattern to her likes...

I know what I said above as far as disagreeing with what people say their likes do, but the reality is it doesn't matter, if you pay attention like I do, you absolutely learn what "like" style people have, and what it says about their behavior and feelings
 
This is why WW is all about interaction. That is where wolves are caught.

Wolves will always have to deal with the issue of how they interact on thread. Some wolves will avoid all direct contact with other wolves. So if it seems like a player is avoiding another player, you want to take note of interactions that AREN'T happening, and why.

That's not great wolfing though.

More realistic is that the wolves will be forced to interact in some way, if only to seem natural or to bus. The difference in how a wolf interacts with another wolf vs a villager is a common way to try to spot them. Obviously they try to avoid there being a difference, but that gets into the subconscious.

It's hard to distinguish between the 3 categories, which is what makes this hard.
 
It's fine to spectate.

Many noobs go through this. I cannot say enough, that the best way to learn to play WW, is to just play WW. Supplementing with reading actual games or articles or spectating or dead chat, is great too!

Truly, the only way to learn how to not be wolfy is to learn to play. When you don't know how to play, you will seem wolfy. So why can't you learn on the sidelines?

It's like sports. You will only learn how to react to the ball by trying to catch it.

It's also a matter of habit, style, and practice. How can you develop your signature, if you don't pick up a pen?

I've said in a few places that a lot of the game is pure pure interaction. So you have to interact. The way you feel in your gut when someone says something to someone else, is NOT the same as when it is said to you. You need to play to develop those instincts, and those instincts will be part of your developing style, which affects how people see you.

Also, along with style and habit, part of whether or not you are perceived as wolfy, is relative to you. Meaning you can't actually copy anyone else or a read a rulebook (I tried), and the only way for people's perception of you to change, is for you to both continue to play with them, and for them to see your play.

Early on, I tried on different villager habits and got different results. The same thing doesn't work for everyone. You won't know without trying what works for you.

Also, all the things that people said were wolfy, I was like "WTF this makes no sense." It just doesn't when you're new. Once you've been village going head to head with wolves enough times, you'll get those "aha! that's why that's wolfy!" It's a certain game logic that I personally would not have caught on just by explanation or watching. That's one reason people like the game, it defies a lot of explanation.

Spectating I think is a great way to learn mechanics, lingo, strategy, and consider what style of villager will work for you. I think spectating makes sense when you don't have the emotional/time commitment fortitude to play for the team. Otherwise, the only difference between playing and spectating is that with playing, you'll get some experience, you'll still get to watch styles, lingo, etc.

Also, and this is legit mob mentality psychology, when you have a group of people faced with an "unknown" threat, they become pretty conservative and neo-phobic. Basically, new people get lynched just for being new. The only cure is to play and not be so new.

I feel like I had to play at least 10 games before I wasn't lynched before D3 for noob mistakes or for just showing up. It was really, really frustrating. I will never shake off the sketch rep, but I can talk myself out of dying more just because people know me now.

Pieces of advice? Well, you're going to be a villager like 80% of the time. This village tends to get to lylo often, or end game, so that means we hang like 80% of the villagers in any one game. So, get used to dying! Villagers die all the time. At first, because you want to play (and we haven't been having weekly games, lol), and there's only so many games and days, and you're new without a lot of days under your belt, and so so prone to being lynched for nothing, you're on a highwire just trying to survive. It's very stressful. I still live in that place.

Anyway, if you accept death, and while not getting lynched for being wolfy is a noble goal, instead make your focus better wolf hunting rather than living longer for not seeming wolfy. Getting better at wolf hunting will make you a better player, and make you live longer.

You hear people complain all the time about dying (me more than many), but it is par for the course. We all go through it and feel like we all die before our times.

For me, the combination of slugging through 10 games, even when I literally cried and rage quit and was gonna delete my SDN acct, to where people knew my style (and I even had a style at that point!), and a shift in focus to wolf hunting, is when it started to change for me.

Here's the other thing about wolf hunting. As I said, they're a rare breed. In any game you play, you're only having so much wolf exposure, so wolf hunting is super hard in the beginning, you don't even know what to look for. People told me, "do more wolf hunting, get better at that," and I was like "WTF?" That's where I started reading theory, but this is where I keep harping on playing! One of the best ways to learn what the wolfy tricks are, especially with the same group of people, is to be exposed to them through playing.

Sorry for the rant. Clearly WW is my passion, yes people learn in different ways.

Sometimes you need the emotional distance from spectating WW vs playing to keep your sanity.

Do not think you need to sit out to learn to play. We get emotional and we can be brutal. People will literally slay you for noob mistakes or spelling/punctuation. But we want you to play and we will help you when we are not wolves, which you can never tell during a game, lol.
 
I did look at the clock. 1.5 hrs to go, even in a huge game of like 30 players where a bunch of people could be on voting, anything ~1 hr to lynch close and nothing I say makes a difference. I've slowly increased the time left to lynch for reveal to see what difference it makes. I used to be at the extreme of no disclosure even unto death. Which is why I've experimented slowly.

This was actually one of the few times it did any good. My personal experience is that a role reveal has the most chance of positive change if done with more than 1 hr to spare, for most cases. It partly has to do with who's actually on at that time. I would have put money on the idea that waiting to reveal closer to deadline would have been worse, and I didn't see any reason not to see if ~1 hr would be a sweeter spot than all the rest I've tried. It was.

Role reveals to be effective and not look like a desperate wolf, need to be done sooner than an hour to deadline when you are that much in the lead, in my experience. The closer to deadline and no matter what you say, you get lynched for being a wolf. Or a tie happens and you die anyway. Or you live a day and die the next because the lingering suspicion. Giving the up the ghost with early reveal can be much less destructive.

Geez, I realize now that I'm rehashing a lecture that AM and others have given me on this that I never followed before.

You're right that I was pissed and I didn't see how far I would get without a role reveal defense out of the gate. Honestly, I truly thought it was hopeless. That was the easiest I have ever gotten out of a lynch in my life.

It didn't need to be my first post. However, what was I gonna say as a defense without reading the thread? And then by the time I do all that, it's definitely too late for a reveal. At that point, if I'm on the chopping block with 1.5 hrs to deadline, I'm not gonna read the thread unless I think there's a point. So I had a decision tree, and I went with the one that didn't waste a lot of my time and result in a late reveal and almost certain death.

It wasn't just about the fact that I was gonna come on and you were gonna unlynch. There was everyone else, too. I'm sure the only reasons the wolves came off me was the reveal.

I argue that the instant role reveal was the most effective thing I could do at that point. I know my fate was sealed otherwise, that's why I did it.

My meta is the exact opposite of any lurking player there is. I only rely on the meta of my activity to "buy" me time for the periods where I am legit busy. If am not on WW for a few days, you guys should be looking for my dead body in a ditch somewhere. Really.

That isn't to say that as a wolf I haven't been *relatively* less active - but NEVER silent. I'd have to FORCE myself to be quiet as village to get away with it as a wolf - and why would I? I'm not going to force myself to play less as a villager so I can play less as a wolf. I have limited amounts of posting self control.

Sometimes the lynch deadline thing happens to me where I've only got an hour until, I'm PST and I sleep until 4 pm on a lot of days.

I get what you're saying about people needing to contribute, but I do actually really resent being called out for inactivity, because what, I'm one of the most active players so I'm first to die when I drop off for some reason, yet others are lurking just as much if not more? It's fundamentally unfair, but whatever, WW, but it creates an obvious de-incentive to active play. It's actually the most annoying thing about my meta that I don't know how to change now. I wish I were Ny sometimes.

We actually shouldn't kill off all the quieter lurker players, but that took me a few years to see.

All your points are valid, I think I just wanted to say that I actually did carefully consider my course of action, and it was indeed a thought out choice to go with being pissed. I did actually consider what it would do to village. I've never gotten out of a lynch like that before, so it seemed like it couldn't hurt. It might have been the wrong choice, but it was considered and based on my experience.
 
That's the spirit!

When I started, the mechanics and ability and lore and all that was the worst part, and beyond me.

Google/mafia wiki will help with the questions you can't ask on thread. The mods are *sometimes* helpful. It took me a while to realize I could attempt conversation with them in PMs.

This is crazy, but especially in the beginning, you don't have to worry about it or understand it! I still don't!

Catching wolves mostly comes down to post analysis, most of the time, for most villagers.

I'll spare the theory discussion that goes into why we have so many damn abilities. It's actually more about muddying up the game amongst players who know each other so well and only have textual cues for communication. In a lot of ways, it's meant to make the game more challenging in a certain way, not less. Er, think of it this way, mechanics don't do as much to help the village find the wolves, as it does to distract the village so catching wolves isn't too easy. It's a way to keep veterans engaged or off balance. Of course for a noob, that makes it feel impossible.

With the way we use game design and abilities, there will always be things at play in a game that you don't fully comprehend while playing it. So don't worry too much about it! It's meant to be that way, will always be that way, although it does get easier.

You don't have to understand abilities or mechanics to play WW or catch wolves!

Don't get me wrong, there's more than one way to wolf hunt and for smart folks those things can absolutely be leveraged into winning.

It's totally fine as a noob to just trust your gut, instincts, ask questions, and just conduct post analysis. I rely too much on meta, but post analysis actually is much broader than that.

Mafia wiki had an interesting quiz and discussion on how you can look at ONE post with no context and actually call village or wolf much better than chance.
 
The chances those two players would "sheep" each other's votes quite like that as wolves is quite slim.

Vote sheeping is more often w&v or v&v. Wolves are usually too nervous to display "pack" behavior in actively going after the same player together over days. Granted it's a small game.

In a game like this that is light on mechanics, and with the luck of the seer out, wolves don't have to hammer vote particular villagers down unless they have an agenda about someone in particular's death, but that can be risky and it's pointless unless there's PR or they suspect you and you want to take them out by lynch, that is soooooooo not a great way to go. Besides intervening to save each other, you don't really need to vote together to get villagers to kill each other.

He's not wrong to wonder if it's w&v behavior. A lot of wolves love to fake tunnel. However, if I were a wolf and it started to look like a villager was sheeping me, I'd actually go the other way so it didn't look like I was a wolf buddying up to a villager. Which is funny, because usually you do have a wolf buddying up to a villager, but if the villager is inadvertantly making it look that way, then it's time to do the opposite.

Unless of course Lawper is a wolf, and he's just reading in the tea leaves to shade people, but wolves can't afford to put forth tinfoil hats in general. Villagers can't help it. You gotta do your best that the shade you throw seems reasonable if you're a wolf. It's a bit WIFOM if I think this means Lawper is clueless villager vs wolf with a bad theory trying to look clueless.
 
No offense Dandy, just that even if your on-thread thoughts were "on" to them, like, I've never NK'd a noob just because they were right. One, people will ask if that's exactly what you did, and you don't need to do that like you would someone who's a town "leader," and you can often get noobs lynched on thread even when they suspect you without gaining suspicion quite easily. It's not how I would use a NK unless I thought there was a PR.

I dunno. Dandy, you were seer? Maybe they sniffed that out somehow. I'd have to go back.

What Lawper isn't considering, that regardless of whether or not you were "right," if you suspect someone, even the wrong someone, strongly on thread and the wolves wonder where your conviction is coming from, that will prompt a NK for suspected PR.

So there's no great reason to assume that because Dandy's death was because she fingered the right wolves. Just appearing to "know too much" which can stand out in a noob especially, can get you NK.

In fact, you can see signs of a noob seer on thread before they've ever seered. Hell, that's true of any PR for any player. Sometimes that's why people get quieter and try to attract less attention, people think it's wolfy and will lynch for it, ironically. The wolves, who know that quiet players aren't wolves, fare better when they guess and NK those people. Dead villager either way for them. Or chaos, whatever.
 
I'm a pretty conservative wolf, and I would say say voting someone and then NK after anyway is an old hat trick.

It's up in the air whether or not a wolf would set that up on purpose as a WIFOM, but if any member of the pack votes someone and then for whatever reason after lynch closes you think they should be dead, it might change a NK choice but it wouldn't stop you from moving on someone you wanted dead.

Ugh, all of this led me back to the proof:

Be careful with NKA (night kill analysis), it's especially dangerous WIFOM territory.

You can spend so much time wondering what's going on in wolf chat, that you miss the actual wolf chat going on in front of you on thread.
 
wolves don't off players that could be distractions - wall of text is just that.

Yes, wolves like a quiet village, but someone will do the talking, the longer the post the less likely it will be read.
 
I wonder if having lylo on a Friday instead of a Thursday..... maybe should be precedent for future games if acts of mod gods could do it....

would that be totally messed up in terms of balance if I modded a game and then built in some day and NK cancels to do just that but with no explanation
 
lol no but it is painful, I guess in the sense because it's basically the completely normal human emotional reaction to have, but somewhere along the way you have to learn to desist because it just makes the mob bloodthirstier

for some reason it reads as not genuine even when it is a lot of the time....

I've been watching so much English medieval film/tv history, you're the psych but tell me why it is that pleas of innocence just make people think you're guiltier or they turn the screws more
 
lol wait, I don't need an explanation for that, I understand sadism quite well by now 😏

Still, I think that text lacks a certain emotional resonance that it almost always reads as flat in these circumstances, and therefore not as genuine. Interestingly enough, what seems to counteract that is really getting to know someone's style, at some point you will really feel their pain through the keyboard. Except at some point someone uses that as a wolf and so back to the pleading not working.

There are some friendships that have actually dissolved, or almost dissolved in WW over this. Actually, I know there have been real life marital issues and has had a real and lasting impact on the community.

I would otherwise think this was silly for a game, but the feelings are real.
 
they are called chaos because having an agenda of their own for a win, usually something doesn't add up or make sense in what's going on in the game, and it's because you have someone acting outside the ordinary wolf vs villager paradigm

neutral tends to be less confusing because if they don't have a win condition of their own, they can play more consistently one side or the other and not really attract the same sort of attention

if you are playing village as a neutral, you are more likely to blend in

if you play with wolf interests at heart, the villagers will likely catch on that's there's wolfy behavior, but the wolves, they won't know who is doing that!

they might postulate there's a lone wolf (I'll spare you the flavors of that, but the key thing is that there's a lack of communication and often knowledge between the lone wolf and the pack so)

typically, since the ordinary wolves know who the wolves are, if anyone doesn't seem like villager, even if they seem like they are helping wolves, the wolves will take out to ensure it's not a chaos with their own win condition out to steal the glory
 
Ironically, I feel like it's a more defensive game, because so much of it is evasion. The skill and strategy is really picking your night kill and your lies.

I agree, the amount of gamesolving isn't ZERO, but besides trying to figure out the right kills vs the wrong kills... you don't do nearly as much analysis of players, because sure, you're trying to sniff out PR and there's some interest in items, but 90% of villager posts are essentially useless to you as a wolf while they try to figure you out and not let on about their roles and items. I don't find there's as much analysis that way.

And 90% of your posts aren't meant to do much besides obfuscate. You might do some solving in wolf chat, but that's it for the most part. You don't want to do any real game solving on the open thread and help the villagers too much.

I felt a lot of fear and a stong survival urge, and a lot of pressure. There was some thrill, but also a lot of stress to me.

Whereas as a villager, what you deal with is paranoia and 90% of your posts could easily be puzzle-solving and player-analysis. I'm less worried about attracting attention so I'm more able to just speak freely and worry less. Every post has a lot more meaning because you are really considering every player. So I agree with you Trilt, lots more analysis and solving.

NOT that being a wolf is easy. It isn't.

I feel like villager is more of an offensive game, in a lot of ways. You don't have to be nearly as defensive in your strategy. You puzzle and wolf hunt hard if you want.
 
sometimes there's puzzle solving for the wolves to figure out just who is the villager(s) for converting, or what steps to take to make it happen, like if they need to get an item or something
 
OK, so I decided for me at least, if LIS is my WW Jesus, and Mel is my WW Judas, Pippy is my WW Jezebel.

My apologies to all the other amazing wolves I have yet to experience their inner workings, but Pippy has taught me all I know about wolfing and it frankly terrifies and inspires me.
-One, wow it's scary evil.
-Two, she plays for fun and makes it fun. I can be the person who get too intense about something and starts to suck the fun out. (I'm like, LIS N1 kill always sounds like a winning wolf move!)
-Three, I don't know how she does it, it's chaotic and exhausting and scary to me, but she does it and it makes it better for everyone.

It's taught me that wolves have to work hard. But also what villagers are up against and how hard they need to work. Numbers won't save you. You can't just show up and put in a lazy lynch vote and expect to win.

Also shout out to players like AM who have taught me how to ask the hard questions. Or, just, to ask a lot of them. 😉 If I come up with a Biblical metaphor starting in J I'll let you know.
 
I believe in the exception to every rule, but some guidelines are there for a reason.

AM was 3rd party, her own win con by definition that no one without mod info can know, and she had kill powers. How she will use it is unknown. Yeah, 3rd party could decide to buddy village, or maybe they take out the village seer when that behooves them. Maybe they switch allegiances near lylo. Maybe they help wolf hunt until they're trusted and the last one standing. AM by her own admission said her choices were being guided by staying alive. Staying alive to win as 3rd party always has potential to hurt village as it is a different agenda that does not always align.

How could we know what to make of WM or Mel or capri based on AM being chaos? We seriously don't see how keeping chaos around is literally inviting WIFOM to the max. Wolves can capitalize on that too, even if chaos is being totally honest, just the fact a suspicion or idea came from chaos now makes them easy to shade.

I don't see why holding off on a confirmed 3rd party's lynch isn't the right choice most of the time. They are a danger to village, pure and simple.

Villagers need to take chances, we also need to be conservative. Our only power is numbers, we're in the dark, when we have good intel move.

So AM takes out a wolf - maybe not worth the village cred that gets her and gets her out from being suspected as 3rd party at endgame.

Maybe I played too many times with a player like DocE as chaos, and I've also played as chaos.

Also the loss to coffee.

Still don't know why we entertain this notion.

If you are doing it right, you are NOT playing for village to win, so it's hard for me to see how it helps to let them do whatever unknown damage while hunting OGs, especially early when you still have a lot of probable mislynches to go.

It's like having a sabateur at worst and a confirmed possible traitor at best to keep confirmed 3rd party.

In hindsight we might say, hey, let's keep her. Even when s chaos is hunting wolves, that can be their wincon.

Be pretty shytty to buddy chaos, help them hunt down and nail a wolf thinking they're being "helpful" over the course of a week, only to find out that was all part of their wincon.

Trying to remember the game with DocE, but as I recall all the 3rd parties in that game were trying to kill wolves. Well, mostly live to end game which meant we were fine with villager deaths.

Anyone who's win basically rests on living and villagers be damned, can never be trusted to always act in village's ìnterest.

Good rarely comes of chaos life.

Neutral party is a bit of a different chat.
 
The breadcrumbs were too transparent imho. When villagers see someone do something weird, well, we're dumb and usually don't have kill powers. Most we can usually do is vote you.

Otoh, when wolves are hunting PRs and see someone say something weird, chances are they're going to figure it out and kill you.
 
Good news is that village has like a 50/50 chance just about, to hit a wolf tomorrow.

Bad news is wolves only have to swing one villager to win tomorrow, when village is 50% likely to pick a villager.
 
because saying "kill so and so when I die!" without stating a reason is not at all helpful to village, even if you are a villager, if anything, if the person saying this is wrong, then they may have taken a mistaken villager with them
 
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