CRNA or MD?

[A.p. Cadmus]

I could use some advice.

I got my BA in psychology and have done some therapy work over the years, and recently decided to take the plunge and go back to school for either Psychiatry or Anesthesiology.

I'm nearly 30 now, which is why I'm hesitating on going right for Med School. It'll take me 2 years to get the premed courses all finished, study and take the MCAT, and get necessary experience before applying. Then 4 years of med school + 4 years residency = 10 year commitment. So I looked at the CRNA route. I could get my BSN in 2.5 years, then gain 1-2 years ICU experience, then do 3 year doctoral program in anesthesia. So approx 7 years.

My age means less working years ahead of me, and more obligations than when I was 20. CRNA salary in Texas is plenty to support the family, so it seems like the choice I should aim for. It's 3 years less, the years are less stressful, and there's less debt.

But what about the prestige of being a MD and seen as top in a field? Would I be lacking adequate training? I know what the AANA says, but would like to know some opinions here. And would you regret not trying for Med School in my shoes? Are there any CRNAs here who wish they did? Or any physicians who wish they went the CRNA route instead?

Can some Anesthesiologists give their opinion on CRNAs and if they are generally trained enough? I would want to be the best I can be for my patients and wouldn't mind learning more indepth from the MD or shadowing them, but would it be seen as bugging?

Thank you

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[anbuitachi]

I could use some advice.

I got my BA in psychology and have done some therapy work over the years, and recently decided to take the plunge and go back to school for either Psychiatry or Anesthesiology.

I'm nearly 30 now, which is why I'm hesitating on going right for Med School. It'll take me 2 years to get the premed courses all finished, study and take the MCAT, and get necessary experience before applying. Then 4 years of med school + 4 years residency = 10 year commitment. So I looked at the CRNA route. I could get my BSN in 2.5 years, then gain 1-2 years ICU experience, then do 3 year doctoral program in anesthesia. So approx 7 years.

My age means less working years ahead of me, and more obligations than when I was 20. CRNA salary in Texas is plenty to support the family, so it seems like the choice I should aim for. It's 3 years less, the years are less stressful, and there's less debt.

But what about the prestige of being a MD and seen as top in a field? Would I be lacking adequate training? I know what the AANA says, but would like to know some opinions here. And would you regret not trying for Med School in my shoes? Are there any CRNAs here who wish they did? Or any physicians who wish they went the CRNA route instead?

Can some Anesthesiologists give their opinion on CRNAs and if they are generally trained enough? I would want to be the best I can be for my patients and wouldn't mind learning more indepth from the MD or shadowing them, but would it be seen as bugging?

Thank you

dont recommend MD route. you will be 40 when you finish.. and it will cost you a boatload of money and tons of sleepless nights. why do you want to do that to yourself?!

And forget about prestige. you have none of it as MD. CRNAs are lacking in training but in most states they dont practice independently so you are kind of training for a different role

 

[Planktonmd]

The question should be: do I want to be a physician or a nurse?
Each one is valuable and has an important role but they are not really comparable.
If all you want is a good paying job maybe psychiatry is a better choice for you considering your background, or just get a Phd in psychology which is a much shorter route.

 

[Aether2000]

If you are interested in anesthesia, then I would suggest in your situation considering Anesthesia Assistant. They make just as much as CRNAs and are currently recognized in 16 states and all VA hospitals. Anesthesiologist assistant degree programs require students hold a bachelor's degree and have completed premedical courses in math, physics, chemistry and biology, but do not require a BSN as do CRNA programs.

 

[NICMAN]

In Texas there is a program up in at UNT in Ft Worth that is a masters degree that takes care of your preliminaries. I have a friend who is one of the deans there and it seems like a good pathway for non traditional students. Then you can seamlessly move on to medical school. TCU has that new MD program and the DO school in Ft Worth is solid. Texas medical schools are also not very expensive comparatively m.

On the other hand, CRNA school is expensive (TCU, TWU, etc.) in CRNA school you may have to travel all over Texas to complete your training including Harlingen and Brownsville.
If you want to keep the psychiatry door open then MD is also a good option. Psychiatrist where I live in Virginia have starting salaries in the $300K range due to scarcity (I was also surprised about this). Residency is much nicer as a psychiatrist. Very few sleepless nights and not as compromising of family time. It is all up to you. The journey is also fun. But if you have any interest whatsoever in psychiatry the do that. You can work well into your 70s and the debt, late career start will be a non issue.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Another point is the accelerated BSN programs. 14-18 months for those with a Bachelors degree already.

 

[Consigliere]

No brainer. CRNA.

 

[BLADEMDA]

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[NITRAS]

Remember that going the RN route that CRNA schools are competitive. Are happy being a nurse? You might not make anesthesia if you go to med school, but you’re still a physician.

PS going from psychology to anesthesia is a huge jump....... are you sure you know what you want to do?

 

[Mikkel]

AA school if an option

 

[jwk]

I could use some advice.

I got my BA in psychology and have done some therapy work over the years, and recently decided to take the plunge and go back to school for either Psychiatry or Anesthesiology.

I'm nearly 30 now, which is why I'm hesitating on going right for Med School. It'll take me 2 years to get the premed courses all finished, study and take the MCAT, and get necessary experience before applying. Then 4 years of med school + 4 years residency = 10 year commitment. So I looked at the CRNA route. I could get my BSN in 2.5 years, then gain 1-2 years ICU experience, then do 3 year doctoral program in anesthesia. So approx 7 years.

My age means less working years ahead of me, and more obligations than when I was 20. CRNA salary in Texas is plenty to support the family, so it seems like the choice I should aim for. It's 3 years less, the years are less stressful, and there's less debt.

But what about the prestige of being a MD and seen as top in a field? Would I be lacking adequate training? I know what the AANA says, but would like to know some opinions here. And would you regret not trying for Med School in my shoes? Are there any CRNAs here who wish they did? Or any physicians who wish they went the CRNA route instead?

Can some Anesthesiologists give their opinion on CRNAs and if they are generally trained enough? I would want to be the best I can be for my patients and wouldn't mind learning more indepth from the MD or shadowing them, but would it be seen as bugging?

Thank you

Consider the anesthesiologist assistant route. Once your pre-reqs are done, you're looking at 24-28 months in a masters degree program. If Texas is your thing, Case Western has a program in Houston, and there are a lot of CAAs in Texas. It's a much shorter path than going the CRNA route. If you're in a care team practice with anesthesiologists, CAA=CRNA as far as scope of practice and compensation. Feel free to PM me for more info.

The biggest advantage for the CRNA route is mobility and potentially higher income if you're working independently in BFE. But best case you're looking at about a 6 year process. Run some numbers on your own. Check out tuition costs and other expenses (and income during your ICU years) for a 6-7 year CRNA path vs a 2-2.5 year CAA path.

 

[kidthor]

OP:

Do you have kids?
Why do you want to make the switch into medicine / what are you doing now?

 

[deleted162650]

Where did the random interest in anesthesia come from?

 

[GlowInTheDark]

Neither. Be a PA. Faster and more flexibility.

I couldn’t handle being a CRNA. Literally stuck in OR all day long. Being an anesthesiologist affords much more flexibility.

 

[2Fast2Des]

CRNA is the best job in medicine hands down. Once **** gets real hot potato that responsibility, get your breakfast lunch and dinner breaks on the dot, and if anyone tells you anything you have the authority to tell em to shove it, why wouldn't you?? plus if you want to specialize in a certain field you don't even need a fellowship you can do everything the doctor does, oh wait now you are with a DNP, amazing!

 

[scoopdaboop]

just do a psych NP. seems like it's the middle ground for what your interests are. It'll take you 3-4 years depending on prereqs and accelerated NP degrees. It's easier than PA schools which are too expensive, and too much actual clinical learning. Why even bother??

Also, idk why you're so interested in anesthesia all of a sudden when your previous experiences don't really point to anything anesthesia related, other than you saw the potential salary in the field.

 

[A.p. Cadmus]

A lot of great advice and in a short time, thank you!

Yes I have 1 child, married (wife works), and saved up enough but have to make it count. I was a lab assistant and right now I'm a case manager. On the side I also own my own publishing services firm (from self-taught skills when self-publishing a book before), but it's not doing well because SEO and very established competition.

An accelerated BSN is what I was looking at here but it has a lot of science & lab prereqs to do for next year, and then I can apply to it for Summer of 2021.

Psychiatric NP and AA are also great avenues I'll look into.

An anesthesiologist gets to be part of a thrilling team environment, efforts are rewarded in real time with satisfaction of keeping someone alive, gets at least some light patient interaction where I can counsel the patient. When I was a kid I had the Ravitch procedure done and my anesthesiologist (I think she was - didn't know about CRNAs at the time) was awesome at that. And I've always been keen on details in my work in the past and hobbies. This vision of being an expert with the machines and pharmacology interests me.

My mom always wanted me to go to med school, and I had a good enough GPA and had interest in health since I was small (Ayurveda mostly), but had to start work immediately after my BA.

 

[NITRAS]

A lot of great advice and in a short time, thank you!


My mom always wanted me to go to med school, and I had a good enough GPA and had interest in health since I was small (Ayurvedic mostly), but had to start work immediately after my BA.

What every ADCOM wants to hear.

 

[DirtDocMD]

You’re getting a bit of a late start. Do MD psych, if you are so inclined. Low stress. Set your own hours. Practice until you’re 80, if so desired. AND you can do it without ever having to interact with a hospital, a hospital administrator, or nursing staff, if so desired (outpt psych).

 

[DrOwnage]

This topic comes up a lot, but no offense people do not usually have a simple choice of either or. Getting into medical school is a beast in its own. This is why there is a difference between an MD and CRNA; skill and intelligence (or if you want to call it knowledge) are taken into account.

 

[Consigliere]

Where did the random interest in anesthesia come from?

My guess is that it came about randomly.

 

[Ronin786]

This topic comes up a lot, but no offense people do not usually have a simple choice of either or. Getting into medical school is a beast in its own. This is why there is a difference between an MD and CRNA; skill and intelligence (or if you want to call it knowledge) are taken into account.

Lies!

 

[BLADEMDA]

Another point to consider is CRNA is less competitive to get into than AA school. There are over a hundred CRNA schools in the USA and the pool of applicants is nowhere near the quality of AA applicants.

CRNAs practice in all states unlike AAs who are limited to around 1/3 of The USA.

But, if you choose to try to get into Med School and complete all the prerequisites then AA school can be your backup plan.

 

[deleted50478]

I could use some advice.

I got my BA in psychology and have done some therapy work over the years, and recently decided to take the plunge and go back to school for either Psychiatry or Anesthesiology.

I'm nearly 30 now, which is why I'm hesitating on going right for Med School. It'll take me 2 years to get the premed courses all finished, study and take the MCAT, and get necessary experience before applying. Then 4 years of med school + 4 years residency = 10 year commitment. So I looked at the CRNA route. I could get my BSN in 2.5 years, then gain 1-2 years ICU experience, then do 3 year doctoral program in anesthesia. So approx 7 years.

My age means less working years ahead of me, and more obligations than when I was 20. CRNA salary in Texas is plenty to support the family, so it seems like the choice I should aim for. It's 3 years less, the years are less stressful, and there's less debt.

But what about the prestige of being a MD and seen as top in a field? Would I be lacking adequate training? I know what the AANA says, but would like to know some opinions here. And would you regret not trying for Med School in my shoes? Are there any CRNAs here who wish they did? Or any physicians who wish they went the CRNA route instead?

Can some Anesthesiologists give their opinion on CRNAs and if they are generally trained enough? I would want to be the best I can be for my patients and wouldn't mind learning more indepth from the MD or shadowing them, but would it be seen as bugging?

Thank you

I’d go for a psychology PhD before nursing. If you were already a nurse I’d say CRNA school is a fine option, but if you aren’t a nurse and have interest in mental health, then psychology seems like the obvious choice.
If you want to become a physician there’s no telling what specialty you’d choose several years from now as a 3rd-4th year med student.

 

[kidthor]

With a wife and kids consider that you'll incur lots of debt and spend inordinate amounts of time to do prereqs, med school, and residency. Your family will bear a great burden... You'd be well past 40 before your start attending practice and you'd be stuck in a hole, basically.

I don't think it's worth it at your age even without kids and a family. But with... it's quite a burden with barely a potential upside.

I agree with the above poster - what about going into clinical psychology? The psychologists around here charge between $160-200 / hr, don't generally have to bother with insurance (because they don't have to!), and seem to set their own hours. And, they help people. Win/win/win?

 

[dabears505]

Crna and it's not even close. Much less time. Lots of 7-3 or 7-5 jobs with no call of you want. Good pay.

 

[HalO'Thane]

CRNA is the best job in medicine hands down. Once **** gets real hot potato that responsibility, get your breakfast lunch and dinner breaks on the dot, and if anyone tells you anything you have the authority to tell em to shove it, why wouldn't you?? plus if you want to specialize in a certain field you don't even need a fellowship you can do everything the doctor does, oh wait now you are with a DNP, amazing!

I believe that you are trying to be sarcastic/funny but the sad part is that so much of this is true. However, in most situations the physician anesthesiology field has no one to blame but themselves for putting themselves in this situation by training and hiring these same CRNA's that are attempting to replace them because enough current anesthesiologists are profiting off of this system at the expense of future generations of anesthesiologists.

 

[deleted697535]

I was an engineer in a previous life. My ex co workers now have multiple houses no debt and never work later than 4pm.

Its 4.30am here now and I'm ****ing exhausted on another effing slow ass c section, still in debt, renting a **** house and I still have to eat **** from other ****ing Dick heads I'd like to stab in the eyeball for another couple years...

 

[Rich91]

I could use some advice.

I got my BA in psychology and have done some therapy work over the years, and recently decided to take the plunge and go back to school for either Psychiatry or Anesthesiology.

I'm nearly 30 now, which is why I'm hesitating on going right for Med School. It'll take me 2 years to get the premed courses all finished, study and take the MCAT, and get necessary experience before applying. Then 4 years of med school + 4 years residency = 10 year commitment. So I looked at the CRNA route. I could get my BSN in 2.5 years, then gain 1-2 years ICU experience, then do 3 year doctoral program in anesthesia. So approx 7 years.

My age means less working years ahead of me, and more obligations than when I was 20. CRNA salary in Texas is plenty to support the family, so it seems like the choice I should aim for. It's 3 years less, the years are less stressful, and there's less debt.

But what about the prestige of being a MD and seen as top in a field? Would I be lacking adequate training? I know what the AANA says, but would like to know some opinions here. And would you regret not trying for Med School in my shoes? Are there any CRNAs here who wish they did? Or any physicians who wish they went the CRNA route instead?

Can some Anesthesiologists give their opinion on CRNAs and if they are generally trained enough? I would want to be the best I can be for my patients and wouldn't mind learning more indepth from the MD or shadowing them, but would it be seen as bugging?

Thank you

Your bsn will be 2.5 years, then 1 year general nursing, then 1-2 years ICU (depending on if you get into a local school), then 3 years DNP

So thats 8.5 years vs 10 year commitment

1.5 years more to be paid 2x of what a crna would be paid( and less worry of oversaturation)....considering the cat is out of the bag and now people are solely doing nursing to get into a crna programme, there is little doubt that schools will pop up and expand, pumping out more graduates

 

[Rich91]

Crna and it's not even close. Much less time. Lots of 7-3 or 7-5 jobs with no call of you want. Good pay.

you realise its 1-2 year difference

most CRNA schools want 2 years icu experience at the time you apply, so a minimum of 3 years between crna school and nursing school, and thats IF you find a ICU position straight away (which no doubt will be extremely competitive due to everyone and their moms wanting to be a crna)

so 8.5 vs 10 years for 2x more salary for the rest of your lift

think of it this way, would you do a extra 18 month masters that would double your income?

CRNA school is quickly becoming a scam

 

[CCM-MD]

You will have to wipe patients asses, clean poop, empty foleys etc. if you go the CRNA route. I could never do that.

 

[deleted50478]

you realise its 1-2 year difference

most CRNA schools want 2 years icu experience at the time you apply, so a minimum of 3 years between crna school and nursing school, and thats IF you find a ICU position straight away (which no doubt will be extremely competitive due to everyone and their moms wanting to be a crna)

so 8.5 vs 10 years for 2x more salary for the rest of your lift

think of it this way, would you do a extra 18 month masters that would double your income?

CRNA school is quickly becoming a scam

It’s not really a question of length in years.
A. The amount of work you are doing per year is far greater in medicine.
B. Most people going into nursing wouldn’t have been accepted to medical school so it isn’t really an option even if you are willing to dedicate 8-9 years to become an Anesthesiologist.
If you have the grades and scores, becoming a physician vs NP or CRNA is a no-brainer financially. You have to decide how much you are willing to forgo outside activities to dedicate yourself to medical training.

 

[deleted171991]

You will have to wipe patients asses, clean poop, empty foleys etc. if you go the CRNA route. I could never do that.

Some people like to use their brains, others their muscles.

 

[epidural man]

my vote: CRNA.

In fact, if my kids were to ask - I might suggest for them to become CRNA's.

I think to suggest AA is not being very honest or objective. Look - because we don't like CRNA's shouldn't come into the picture at all. That isn't being objective.

There is clearly a CRNA vs MD battle going on, and CRNA's will likely win. What that means regarding how that battle will end and what the landscape will look like is not clear.

But to do an accelerated master's degree for nursing (1.5years), then ICU for 1 year (and Im not 100% sure all programs really require this), then 2 years of CRNA training - then making TONS of money (over other nurses) with a really cool job that is meaningful and has a great market - NO BRAINER.

Become a CRNA - get good at your craft for about 4-5 years - then go find a job in an ASC or working or a plastic surgeon who will pay you very well.

By thew way - if you really want to be an MD - then take that route. That is a different scenario. Some people just really want to be a physician. One way to look at that is.....if it is what you want... Who cares how long it takes or the cost.

 

[Ironspy]

I could use some advice.

I got my BA in psychology and have done some therapy work over the years, and recently decided to take the plunge and go back to school for either Psychiatry or Anesthesiology.

I'm nearly 30 now, which is why I'm hesitating on going right for Med School. It'll take me 2 years to get the premed courses all finished, study and take the MCAT, and get necessary experience before applying. Then 4 years of med school + 4 years residency = 10 year commitment. So I looked at the CRNA route. I could get my BSN in 2.5 years, then gain 1-2 years ICU experience, then do 3 year doctoral program in anesthesia. So approx 7 years.

My age means less working years ahead of me, and more obligations than when I was 20. CRNA salary in Texas is plenty to support the family, so it seems like the choice I should aim for. It's 3 years less, the years are less stressful, and there's less debt.

But what about the prestige of being a MD and seen as top in a field? Would I be lacking adequate training? I know what the AANA says, but would like to know some opinions here. And would you regret not trying for Med School in my shoes? Are there any CRNAs here who wish they did? Or any physicians who wish they went the CRNA route instead?

Can some Anesthesiologists give their opinion on CRNAs and if they are generally trained enough? I would want to be the best I can be for my patients and wouldn't mind learning more indepth from the MD or shadowing them, but would it be seen as bugging?

Thank you

I’m a psychiatrist and plenty of older trainees in psych. It’s, on average, a cushier residency than anesthesiology and if you pick a cushy program it’s no contest easier than a cushy anesthesiology residency. You can match somewhere with low COL and moonlight as a senior resident to double or triple your salary. As an attending, many jobs have no call or minimal call with good control of hours and lots of locums options if you want to hustle. Plenty of areas have a good markets for cash only private practice where you can make good money with control of your life, be home for dinner and sleep in your own bed. While it’s true that average psych $<avg anesthesiology $, I suspect that the hourly rate is not that different.

 

[narcotics999]

I’m a psychiatrist and plenty of older trainees in psych. It’s, on average, a cushier residency than anesthesiology and if you pick a cushy program it’s no contest easier than a cushy anesthesiology residency. You can match somewhere with low COL and moonlight as a senior resident to double or triple your salary. As an attending, many jobs have no call or minimal call with good control of hours and lots of locums options if you want to hustle. Plenty of areas have a good markets for cash only private practice where you can make good money with control of your life, be home for dinner and sleep in your own bed. While it’s true that average psych $<avg anesthesiology $, I suspect that the hourly rate is not that different.

My only problem about Psych is that I hate to talk to people, especially the crazy ones.

 

[Consigliere]

My only problem about Psych is that I hate to talk to people, especially the crazy ones.

There's the rub.

 

[deleted162650]

My only problem about Psych is that I hate to talk to people, especially the crazy ones.

Yup. I think the % of anesthesiologists that would be happy in Psych is vanishingly small.

 

[step213]

Med school/PA route gives you the most flexibility if you are open to other fields outside of anesthesia (med school you have time to explore, as a PA you can do almost any other field besides anesthesia). I made the MD choice... was literally a few months from starting CRNA school. I'm so happy with my choice, the ceiling effect that you hit as an APP/mid-level is an issue to some and not an issue to others. I know other people will judge my life choices for one reason or another and say I should've been a CRNA but I can tell you I've loved the MD route for the depth of training available to me- currently doing fellowship. I have quite a few RN friends who chose the MD route and all of them are happy they did. One is an anesthesia resident at vandy, another doing EM, another doing IM. The head of our ICU's at my home institution was an RN-> CRNA -> MD and ended up doing pulm/CC.

 

[vector2]

Yup. I think the % of anesthesiologists that would be happy in Psych is vanishingly small.

How do I become the psych guy who shows up at 630, hits the zap button a few times, and then leaves the hospital in time to cash his checks when the bank opens?

 

[Drangue]

go back to school for either Psychiatry or Anesthesiology.

How did you narrow down your options to either anesthesiology or psychiatry; two completely different specialties with literally no similarities?

 

[Mikkel]

How did you narrow down your options to either anesthesiology or psychiatry; two completely different specialties with literally no similarities?

Both of em you're sitting on your ass for most of the day talking to nutjobs!

 

[PieOHmy]

My only problem about Psych is that I hate to talk to people, especially the crazy ones.

BUt the thing is when you talk to crazy people it doesn't matter one iota what you say to them. YOu can say any thing and if they complain and someone questions you you write, " See diagnosis: manic/depressive with paranoid hallucinations" I didnt say what the patient said I said.

In Anesthesia you need Mad soft skills to succeed. your putting to sleep the local celebrity (which i did) everything you says matters.

 

[2.0%]

BUt the thing is when you talk to crazy people it doesn't matter one iota what you say to them. YOu can say any thing and if they complain and someone questions you you write, " See diagnosis: manic/depressive with paranoid hallucinations" I didnt say what the patient said I said.

I feel sorry for your patients...

 

[A.p. Cadmus]

Forgot to reply on here in awhile. I looked into the advice people stated here and weighed my interests and obligations and decided to go the route of PMHNP - psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner (and looking for opportunity to shadow one). Thank you!

 

[psychapp121]

How do I become the psych guy who shows up at 630, hits the zap button a few times, and then leaves the hospital in time to cash his checks when the bank opens?

haha you’d be surprised those zaps don’t make too much money unfortunately..

 

[IMGASMD]

haha you’d be surprised those zaps don’t make too much money unfortunately..

I thought it’s the volume that’s the rate determining factor. If you can line up 5,8 patients every time you do it. Would that 2-4 hours worth it for you? Just asking.

 

[Mikkel]

What's the worst case Medicaid pay for a single zap session? 30 patients in a day has to be decent coin.

 

[Au-dragon]

Your bsn will be 2.5 years, then 1 year general nursing, then 1-2 years ICU (depending on if you get into a local school), then 3 years DNP

So thats 8.5 years vs 10 year commitment

1.5 years more to be paid 2x of what a crna would be paid( and less worry of oversaturation)....considering the cat is out of the bag and now people are solely doing nursing to get into a crna programme, there is little doubt that schools will pop up and expand, pumping out more graduates