Current DNP Students Thoughts

[W19]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Where Am I wrong?

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[762513]

I'm not going to argue with someone who pulled a class list of the internet and then literally guessed at the content of those classes. You're *****ic.

 

[W19]

I'm not going to argue with someone who pulled a class list of the internet and then literally guessed at the content of those classes. You're *****ic.

So original!

If you want to be a DOKTA, do yourself a favor. Go to med school!

 

[762513]

So original!

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[W19]

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Psych Guy who is an NP seems to agree with me...

 

[W19]

It does not take a lot of brain power to figure out what's the content of a class with the name: 'NURS 729 Organizational Systems'

 

[762513]

Psych Guy who is an NP seems to agree with me...

It doesnt matter who argees with you. It's something a completely uneducated person would do. You're just another med student trolling the forums.

 

[W19]

It doesnt matter who argees with you. It's something a completely uneducated person would do. You're just another med student trolling the forums.

A med student who is also a nurse....

 

[W19]

Ok... I get it! You will be a doctor. See you in the physician lounge!

 

[762513]

It doesnt matter if you're at attending at John Hopkins, it's still a idiotic thing to say.

 

[W19]

It doesnt matter if you're at attending at John Hopkins, it's still a idiotic thing to say.

On side note... Let me be serious now!

If you gonna do a 3-year DNP program, why don't you just take the med school prereqs while working a nurse and then go to med school? That's what I did... I was working as regular nurse making money while I took the prereqs. Yeah med school is expansive and hard, but being a physician will give you a lot more freedom.

I don't know your exact circumstances, but I think it's something you should think about if you haven't committed to the DNP program yet.

@emedpa can tell you more about the limitation of being a midlevel provider cause he often talks about it here.

Good luck!

 

[762513]

On side note... Lets me be serious now!

If you gonna do a 3-year DNP program, why don't you just take the med school prereqs while working a nurse and then go to med school? That's what I did... I was working as regular nurse making money while I took the prereqs. Yeah med school is expansive and hard, but being a physician will give you a lot more freedom.

I don't know your exact circumstances, but I think it's something you should think about if you haven't committed to the DNP program yet.

@emedpa can tell you more about the limitation of being a midlevel provider cause he often talks about it here.

On a side note: I'm not going to engage in a discussion with someone as juvenile as you as longer.

 

[W19]

On a side note: I'm not going to engage in a discussion with someone as juvenile as you as longer.

Ok... Good luck anyway!

 

[Boatswain2PA]

On a side note: I'm not going to engage in a discussion with someone as juvenile as you as longer.

This quote just struck me as the epitome of how so many young people are simply not capable of cognitively synthesizing ideas that do not match their own.

I think it is a result of the lack of actual diversity in our educational systems. Students are protected from anything which may be intrusive or disturbing; anything that may make them feel "uncomfortable." Then, when they enter the real world they are unable to comprehend that people actually DO have different ideas.

So, since they have never been confronted with ideological difficulty, they resort to simply minimizing the opposing ideology by saying "I'm not going to engage in a discussion with someone as juvenile as you."

W19 IS a Nurse, who is going to Medical School....yeah...."juvenile." <not!>

 

[762513]

This quote just struck me as the epitome of how so many young people are simply not capable of cognitively synthesizing ideas that do not match their own.

I think it is a result of the lack of actual diversity in our educational systems. Students are protected from anything which may be intrusive or disturbing; anything that may make them feel "uncomfortable." Then, when they enter the real world they are unable to comprehend that people actually DO have different ideas.

So, since they have never been confronted with ideological difficulty, they resort to simply minimizing the opposing ideology by saying "I'm not going to engage in a discussion with someone as juvenile as you."

W19 IS a Nurse, who is going to Medical School....yeah...."juvenile." <not!>

I'm not going to engage with him for the same reason I wont engage with you. You are both purposefully offensive and degrading on this forum and now you are trying to pawn it off as having a difference of opinion.

 

[FutureD0C17]

It is getting militant in here. The snapshot of PA vs NP curriculum says it all.

If I were running this country, nobody would be able to prescribe anything unless they could pass a hardcore science based medical exam. Too many dangerous people playing doctor nowadays.

 

[762513]

It is getting militant in here. The snapshot of PA vs NP curriculum says it all.

If I were running this country, nobody would be able to prescribe anything unless they could pass a hardcore science based medical exam. Too many dangerous people playing doctor nowadays.

Future doc, the "snapshot" says nothing, which is the point. Neither you nor he know what is actually in the classes I am taking beyond their course name; both of you are literally just making stuff up to be offensive. All of you are just trolling.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I'm not going to engage with him for the same reason I wont engage with you. You are both purposefully offensive and degrading on this forum and now you are trying to pawn it off as having a difference of opinion.

No. Nobody is being purposefully offensive, and certainly not degrading you or anyone.

But the tendency of resorting to victimhood ("he's being mean!"), or of simply devalueing someone with a different opinion ("I'm done talking with you because you're stupid, or racist, or homophobic") is a tactic of the intellectually destitute.

Give facts. The snapshot he gave makes it look like it's a powderpuff class. Give us some facts of how strenuous your classes are.

Give us some examples of where your DNP classes give you some in depth medical education.

You're a veteran who served in a war zone. Step up and discuss the issue...

 

[762513]

"haven't gotten to the medical portion of my training."

Don't blink when you get to it, otherwise you may lose it in all of the nursing leadership, nursing "research", and nursing administration classes.

You were offensive from your very first post, and multiple other posters have said the same thing. Someone who would behave like that is not worth debating.

 

[NYCGuy86]

Where Am I wrong?

I doubt the "FNP Specialty Theory I" course is fluff. I think it's safe to assume that is one of the primary care didactic courses covering common diseases, diagnosis, and treatment. NP schools typically "hide" the clinical medicine courses under weird titles like that.

 

[NYCGuy86]

I like Columbia's ACNP program:

N7001 Normal Physiology and Pathophysiology Across the Lifespan I 3
N7002 Normal Physiology and Pathophysiology Across the Lifespan II 3
N6838 Diagnosis and Management of the Critically/Acutely Ill Adult I 3 Specialty
N6839 Diagnosis and Management of the Critically/Acutely Ill Adult II 3 Specialty
N6930 Interpersonal Violence and Abuse: Prevention, Assessment and Intervention for Health Care Professionals 1 Core & Shared
N6940 Management and Advanced Practice Nursing 1 Core & Shared
N7005 Health and Social Policy in the Context of Practice 3 Core & Shared
N8102 Advanced Pharmacology 3 Core & Shared
N8130 Acute and Critical Care Pharmacology 2 Elective/Specialty
N8786 Advanced Clinical Assessment Across the Lifespan 3 Required
N8788 Advanced Clinical Assessment in Acute Care 1 Specialty
N8816 Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner 2 Specialty
N8820 Advanced Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner I 3 Specialty
N8823 Advanced Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner II 3 Specialty
N8825 Integration Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner 5 Specialty
N8843 Independent Study in Adult Acute Care 2 Elective
N9290 Incorporating Genetics and Genomics in Advanced Practice Nursing 2-3 Core & Shared

 

[W19]

I doubt the "FNP Specialty Theory I" course is fluff. I think it's safe to assume that is one of the primary care didactic courses covering common diseases, diagnosis, and treatment. NP schools typically "hide" the clinical medicine courses under weird titles like that.

Probably... Pharmacology is whole year course in med school and it's kicking everyone's butt... These people who are attending UW-M are geniuses if they can master pharm in one semester.

 

[W19]

I like Columbia's ACNP program:

N7001 Normal Physiology and Pathophysiology Across the Lifespan I 3
N7002 Normal Physiology and Pathophysiology Across the Lifespan II 3
N6838 Diagnosis and Management of the Critically/Acutely Ill Adult I 3 Specialty
N6839 Diagnosis and Management of the Critically/Acutely Ill Adult II 3 Specialty
N6930 Interpersonal Violence and Abuse: Prevention, Assessment and Intervention for Health Care Professionals 1 Core & Shared
N6940 Management and Advanced Practice Nursing 1 Core & Shared
N7005 Health and Social Policy in the Context of Practice 3 Core & Shared
N8102 Advanced Pharmacology 3 Core & Shared
N8130 Acute and Critical Care Pharmacology 2 Elective/Specialty
N8786 Advanced Clinical Assessment Across the Lifespan 3 Required
N8788 Advanced Clinical Assessment in Acute Care 1 Specialty
N8816 Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner 2 Specialty
N8820 Advanced Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner I 3 Specialty
N8823 Advanced Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner II 3 Specialty
N8825 Integration Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner 5 Specialty
N8843 Independent Study in Adult Acute Care 2 Elective
N9290 Incorporating Genetics and Genomics in Advanced Practice Nursing 2-3 Core & Shared

Based on these courses, I think this is a legit program...

 

[762513]

This is a PA curriculum: Nova Southeastern University. Can you see the difference?

Curriculum Timeline
Didactic Phase
SUMMER I (19) FALL I (20) WINTER I (31) SUMMER II (16)
Jun, Jul, Aug Sep, Oct, Nov, Dec Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, May Jun, Jul, Aug
Anatomy (5) Microbiology (3) Clinical Behavioral Medicine (3) Life Support Procedures & Skills (3)
Physiology (3) Legal & Ethical Issues in Health Care (2) Interpretation & Evaluation of Medical Literature (2) Clinical Procedures & Surgical Skills (5)
Clinical Pathophysiology (3) Pharmacology I (2) Pharmacology II (4) Health Promotion & Disease Prevention (2)
Physical Diagnosis I (3) Physical Diagnosis II (3) Physical Diagnosis III (3) Core Competencies (2)
Medical Terminology (1) Clinical Medicine & Surgery I (7) Clinical Medicine & Surgery II (8) Clinical Pharmacology (4)
Biomedical Principles (1) Clinical Laboratory Medicine I (1) Clinical Medicine & Surgery III (7) Clinical Genetics (2)
Introduction to the PA Profession (1) Electrocardiography (2) Clinical Laboratory Medicine II (2)
Complementary Medicine & Nutrition (2)
Clinical Phase
FALL WINTER SUMMER
Aug, Sep, Oct, Nov, Dec Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, May Jun, Jul, Aug
Family Medicine (6) Emergency Medicine (6) Clinical Elective-I (6)
Internal Medicine (6) Surgery (6) Clinical Elective-II (6)
Prenatal Care & Gynecology (6) Pediatrics (6) Clinical Elective-III (4)
Graduate Project (3)
*Clinical rotations vary in sequence

Micro: Undergrad / Fluff
A&P: Undergrad / Fluff
Behavior Medicine? : Fluff
Life Support: ACLS, BLS Fluff
Legal and ethical issues : Fluff
Medical literature : Research Fluff
Procedures and skills: Should be learned at bedside, fluff
Promotion and Disease prevention : Fluff
Medical terminology: Fluff
Genetics: Fluff, not needed to practice
Nutrition: Fluff
ECG : Fluff, not that difficult
Nutrition : Fluff

See how easy that is to do? I don't know anything really about these classes but I can still can them fluff because I'm behind a keyboard and I'm trolling right now.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

You were offensive from your very first post, and multiple other posters have said the same thing. Someone who would behave like that is not worth debating.

Again, "oh I didn't like what you said, so I'm offended". And since you're offended, you lack the ability to debate.

I like Columbia's ACNP program:

N7001 Normal Physiology and Pathophysiology Across the Lifespan I 3
N7002 Normal Physiology and Pathophysiology Across the Lifespan II 3
N6838 Diagnosis and Management of the Critically/Acutely Ill Adult I 3 Specialty
N6839 Diagnosis and Management of the Critically/Acutely Ill Adult II 3 Specialty
N6930 Interpersonal Violence and Abuse: Prevention, Assessment and Intervention for Health Care Professionals 1 Core & Shared
N6940 Management and Advanced Practice Nursing 1 Core & Shared
N7005 Health and Social Policy in the Context of Practice 3 Core & Shared
N8102 Advanced Pharmacology 3 Core & Shared
N8130 Acute and Critical Care Pharmacology 2 Elective/Specialty
N8786 Advanced Clinical Assessment Across the Lifespan 3 Required
N8788 Advanced Clinical Assessment in Acute Care 1 Specialty
N8816 Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner 2 Specialty
N8820 Advanced Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner I 3 Specialty
N8823 Advanced Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner II 3 Specialty
N8825 Integration Practicum in Acute Care for the Nurse Practitioner 5 Specialty
N8843 Independent Study in Adult Acute Care 2 Elective
N9290 Incorporating Genetics and Genomics in Advanced Practice Nursing 2-3 Core & Shared

That sounds like it may be medically intense. Do you know if it is?

I have long said that the nursing mafia could put the PA profession out of business if they ever decided to get rid of the advanced nursing theory/leadership BS and make it medicine heavy. I wonder of maybe Columbia has started doing that.

 

[762513]

Again, "oh I didn't like what you said, so I'm offended". And since you're offended, you lack the ability to debate.



That sounds like it may be medically intense. Do you know if it is?

I have long said that the nursing mafia could put the PA profession out of business if they ever decided to get rid of the advanced nursing theory/leadership BS and make it medicine heavy. I wonder of maybe Columbia has started doing that.

There's a difference between someone being offended by having a teachable moment and having their world view challenged, and someone who is just being an inflammatory and a jerk, as you have been. I love debating people who don't go out of their way to be offensive right from the get-go. As quite a few people have noted, you're not one of those people.

 

[NYCGuy86]

Again, "oh I didn't like what you said, so I'm offended". And since you're offended, you lack the ability to debate.



That sounds like it may be medically intense. Do you know if it is?

I have long said that the nursing mafia could put the PA profession out of business if they ever decided to get rid of the advanced nursing theory/leadership BS and make it medicine heavy. I wonder of maybe Columbia has started doing that.

I agree it does sound like it. I don't know from personal experience though, only from looking at course descriptions. I also like that Columbia's DNP adds on clinically relevant courses and additional clinical hours, unlike most I've seen (talking strictly of MSN-DNP programs). If I go the ACNP route I'd choose a program like Columbia's that has less peripheral courses. Penn's ACNP program also looks good as far as that goes:

Core Courses (4 course units)
NURS607 - Advanced Physiology and Pathophysiology
NURS608 - Advanced Pharmacology and Therapeutics for Nursing Practice
NURS657 - Advanced Physical Assessment and Clinical Decision Making
NURS547 - Scientific Inquiry for Evidence-based Practice
-OR-
NURS637 - Introduction to Research Methods and Design


Theory Courses (4 course units)
NURS670 - Principles of Adult Gerontology Acute Care I
NURS671 - Principles of Adult Gerontology Acute Care II
NURS672 - Principles of Adult Gerontology Acute Care III
NURS764 - Advanced Technologies & Clinical Decisions in Acute Care

Clinical Courses (3 course units)
NURS673 - Advanced Clinical Decisions in Adult Gerontology Acute Care
NURS674 - Adult Gerontology Acute Care NP: Professional Role and Clinical Practicum I
NURS675 - Adult Gerontology Acute Care NP: Professional Role and Clinical Practicum II

Elective Courses (1 course unit)
ELEC001 - Graduate Nursing Elective #1

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Well, you failed to get the teachable moment there - don't blink in NP school, cause you might miss the medical aspect amongst all the nursing leadership fluff.

That came across harsh? Dude, you are a combat veteran! And you get your knickers in a bunch by presenting you the truth?? Most NP programs don't teach much medicine. However, many of their graduates can still become terrific providers, but only through hard work and self-study to overcome the deficit they have. That's fact. If you don't accept that, and you go through a crappy part time, on-line NP program with only 500 loosely organized clinical hours, you're going to be dangerous. Worse yet, you won't even know that you're dangerous.

Actually, I would expect YOU to know that with your military/paramedic background.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I agree it does sound like it. I don't know from personal experience though, only from looking at course descriptions. I also like that Columbia's DNP adds on clinically relevant courses and additional clinical hours, unlike most I've seen (talking strictly of MSN-DNP programs). If I go the ACNP route I'd choose a program like Columbia's that has less peripheral courses. Penn's ACNP program also looks good as far as that goes:

Nice.

What do you know about their clinical rotation requirements?

 

[762513]

I know I will need years with physician oversight before I will feel even in the ballpark of comfortable. I've made that clear in just about every post I've ever made. You may want to examine not what you say but how you say it, especially to someone you just met over the internet, that is if you actually plan on communicating with them.

 

[NYCGuy86]

Nice.

What do you know about their clinical rotation requirements?

Not too sure about requirements either. Definitely less hours than PA of course, even in the BSN-DNP program.

 

[675151]

Again, "oh I didn't like what you said, so I'm offended". And since you're offended, you lack the ability to debate.
I think you're ro


That sounds like it may be medically intense. Do you know if it is?

I have long said that the nursing mafia could put the PA profession out of business if they ever decided to get rid of the advanced nursing theory/leadership BS and make it medicine heavy. I wonder of maybe Columbia has started doing that.

I agree it does sound like it. I don't know from personal experience though, only from looking at course descriptions. I also like that Columbia's DNP adds on clinically relevant courses and additional clinical hours, unlike most I've seen (talking strictly of MSN-DNP programs). If I go the ACNP route I'd choose a program like Columbia's that has less peripheral courses. Penn's ACNP program also looks good as far as that goes:

Core Courses (4 course units)
NURS607 - Advanced Physiology and Pathophysiology
NURS608 - Advanced Pharmacology and Therapeutics for Nursing Practice
NURS657 - Advanced Physical Assessment and Clinical Decision Making
NURS547 - Scientific Inquiry for Evidence-based Practice
-OR-
NURS637 - Introduction to Research Methods and Design


Theory Courses (4 course units)
NURS670 - Principles of Adult Gerontology Acute Care I
NURS671 - Principles of Adult Gerontology Acute Care II
NURS672 - Principles of Adult Gerontology Acute Care III
NURS764 - Advanced Technologies & Clinical Decisions in Acute Care

Clinical Courses (3 course units)
NURS673 - Advanced Clinical Decisions in Adult Gerontology Acute Care
NURS674 - Adult Gerontology Acute Care NP: Professional Role and Clinical Practicum I
NURS675 - Adult Gerontology Acute Care NP: Professional Role and Clinical Practicum II

Elective Courses (1 course unit)
ELEC001 - Graduate Nursing Elective #1

They pretty much all look like that. Of course, they usually have some nurse theory rubbish, research, and often practice management or health policy courses.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

They pretty much all look like that.

What do you mean? I thought the two he posted sounded much more medically intense.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I know I will need years with physician oversight before I will feel even in the ballpark of comfortable. I've made that clear in just about every post I've ever made. You may want to examine not what you say but how you say it, especially to someone you just met over the internet, that is if you actually plan on communicating with them.

Agreed, much communication is lost without the interpersonals. That requires the sender to work harder to send the right message, AND the receiver to not get butt-hurt over any perceptible insult. Sounds like we both failed.

 

[675151]

What do you mean? I thought the two he posted sounded much more medically intense.

Regarding the course descriptions it was a lot like my coursework except insert "psychiatry-mental health" instead of family or adult-gerontology. Most NP curricula have similar course names and descriptions. It's the fact that much of it being taught by academic NPs and spending a lot of time writing research papers that is the large downfall. Instead of nursing arts type courses they could and should replace those with more -ologies and clinical rotations.

 

[675151]

It's almost as if PA programs are interested in their students having an actual education in the topics necessary for competently practicing medicine.

NP academics need a great overhaul across the board. NP school is nivhe-focused. There is no generalist approach such as that given in PA and med school. If you're going to be in a women's health NP tract, all you're going to do is women's health after a general physiology/pathophysiology, pharmacology, health assessment, and some type of techniques course of assessment techniques, anatomical model lab, suturing, etc.

 

[675151]

NP received their rights to prescribe medicine less from their academic work and more from the intense lobbying. ACNP is a totally separate category and may be the only redeeming component. I know most nursing students fail out of the ACNP program and switch to FNP.

Well, what caused MDs to stop being critical of DOs? On the student boards, many of the posts still make them out to be subpar, reject, witch doctors - written mostly by arrogant kids of course. This isn't a personal opinion of osteopathy, BTW.

I've never once heard of an ACNP failing out much less failing out and switching to FNP. How many have you known personally and where?

 

[W19]

It's almost as if PA programs are interested in their students having an actual education in the topics necessary for competently practicing medicine.

All I am going to say is that if I am going to hire a midlevel when I become a physician, I know which type of midlevel to hire...

 

[675151]

All I am going to say is that if I am going to hire a midlevel when I become a physician, I know which type of midlevel to hire...

What you will do will be based solely on economics so preconceived notions need be set aside.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Regarding the course descriptions it was a lot like my coursework except insert "psychiatry-mental health" instead of family or adult-gerontology. Most NP curricula have similar course names and descriptions. It's the fact that much of it being taught by academic NPs and spending a lot of time writing research papers that is the large downfall. Instead of nursing arts type courses they could and should replace those with more -ologies and clinical rotations.

I thought the curriculums posted above sounded a little better than other one's I'm familiar with. Of course, you don't know exactly what the coursework is, but at least it SOUNDS heavy in pathology and critical care.

It's almost as if PA programs are interested in their students having an actual education in the topics necessary for competently practicing medicine.

Well....YEAH! We practice medicine.

NP academics need a great overhaul across the board. NP school is nivhe-focused. There is no generalist approach such as that given in PA and med school. If you're going to be in a women's health NP tract, all you're going to do is women's health after a general physiology/pathophysiology, pharmacology, health assessment, and some type of techniques course of assessment techniques, anatomical model lab, suturing, etc.

The focus on nursing "research" is a joke. I've watched my wife go through her BSN program and the quality of "research" that they hold up as excellent is ridiculously poor. Perceptions, feelings, impediments....99% of it is fluff. Questions about whether delivering mothers PREFER doctors or midwives (no bias there, right?!), or whether delivering mothers get more pain medications/epidurals with doctors than with midwives, etc. The results of all this nursing literature is always pro-nurse power!! No discussion about differences in morbidity or mortality of the kid that was just born. Guess that's not important.

If the nursing mafia ever decides to shift gear from soft topics and go into medicine, they could easily push PAs out of the marketplace in a decade or two. Right now W19 would prefer to hire a brand new PA over a brand new NP because he/she knows that the PA (despite probably being a 24 yo young lady who has never experienced life outside of school) has had extensive medical training. But if the nursing mafia fixes their educational processes, I'm sure W19 would rather hire a NP who not only has had extensive medical training, but was also a nurse for xx number of years.

 

[W19]

What you will do will be based solely on economics so preconceived notions need be set aside.

Not when people's lives will be in jeopardy!

 

[675151]

I thought the curriculums posted above sounded a little better than other one's I'm familiar with. Of course, you don't know exactly what the coursework is, but at least it SOUNDS heavy in pathology and critical care.



Well....YEAH! We practice medicine.



The focus on nursing "research" is a joke. I've watched my wife go through her BSN program and the quality of "research" that they hold up as excellent is ridiculously poor. Perceptions, feelings, impediments....99% of it is fluff. Questions about whether delivering mothers PREFER doctors or midwives (no bias there, right?!), or whether delivering mothers get more pain medications/epidurals with doctors than with midwives, etc. The results of all this nursing literature is always pro-nurse power!! No discussion about differences in morbidity or mortality of the kid that was just born. Guess that's not important.

If the nursing mafia ever decides to shift gear from soft topics and go into medicine, they could easily push PAs out of the marketplace in a decade or two. Right now W19 would prefer to hire a brand new PA over a brand new NP because he/she knows that the PA (despite probably being a 24 yo young lady who has never experienced life outside of school) has had extensive medical training. But if the nursing mafia fixes their educational processes, I'm sure W19 would rather hire a NP who not only has had extensive medical training, but was also a nurse for xx number of years.

You're right and much of the research is qualitative and uses nurses and nursing students as convenience samples. Some of the dissertation topics of BSN instructional staff was laughable.

Someone mentioned a nursing research topic about giving warm blankets to psych inpatients to reduce agitation or something. Who cares?

 

[675151]

Not when people's lives will be in jeopardy!

You're being dramatic.

 

[W19]

If the nursing mafia ever decides to shift gear from soft topics and go into medicine, they could easily push PAs out of the marketplace in a decade or two. Right now W19 would prefer to hire a brand new PA over a brand new NP because he/she knows that the PA (despite probably being a 24 yo young lady who has never experienced life outside of school) has had extensive medical training. But if the nursing mafia fixes their educational processes, I'm sure W19 would rather hire a NP who not only has had extensive medical training, but was also a nurse for xx number of years.

Physicians are starting to take notice now about which type of provider is 'better'.... My cousin (an internist) just hired a PA and I asked him why he hired a PA instead of a NP and he said after interacting with PA/NP and 'precepting' PA/NP students when he was an hospitalist, he will not be comfortable having NP taking care of his patients based on his experience.

He is probably exaggerating, but physicians who interact with mid levels notice the difference... Anyway, it's a no brainer! PA schools have a standardized/rigorous admission process and curriculum. So people should not be surprised that PA for the most part will be better than the average NP.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

You're right and much of the research is qualitative and uses nurses and nursing students as convenience samples. Some of the dissertation topics of BSN instructional staff was laughable.

Someone mentioned a nursing research topic about giving warm blankets to psych inpatients to reduce agitation or something. Who cares?

And meanwhile, in my opinion, nurses are getting further away from NURSING.

When a parent nurses an infant, it not only means providing nutrition, but doing everything for this helpless infant. Yes, feeding the infant, but also providing warmth, dryness, cleanness, and love.

A sick and/or hospitalized patient often cannot do (some) things for themselves. Worse yet, as an adult, it can be demeaning to have to ask for a bedpan, have someone wipe your ass (or, even worse, under those folds of fat), get a blanket, etc, etc, etc. But to me, THIS is the absolute heart of nursing, and I truly don't know if any of that makes it into any curriculum anymore. Worse yet, the job of a nurse has transitioned from helping the patient with things they cannot do for themselves to sitting in front of the computer documenting that they can't take care of themselves. <sigh!>

Just my opinion. BTW - I love nurses (well...almost all of them).

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Physicians are starting to take notice now about which type of provider is 'better'.... My cousin (an internist) just hired a PA and I asked him why he hired a PA instead of a NP and he said after interacting with PA/NP and 'precepting' PA/NP students when he was an hospitalist, he will not be comfortable having NP taking care of his patients based on his experience.

Those were students. Two of the absolutely best providers I know are NPs. One in EM and one in surgery. Both clearly understood the severe limitations of their NP education, sought strong physician mentors early in their NP careers, and worked hard learning what they didn't know so that they could master their craft.

I argue that 5 years out of school, the difference between a PA and a NP is completely dependent upon the person holding the title.

That being said....hire the PA! lol

 

[675151]

Nursing is a ship without a captain - largely direction less. Look, for example, at the many pathways of becoming a RN.

There are traditional RNs who speak so foul of medicine that they prevent NPs from becoming fully independent because to do so would make us philosophically at odds with nursing which exists to care and not cure. Why you need a license to care is beyond me. And rubes who, as RNs, think they can get more glory and dollars want to become NPs as easily as possible at the expense of science. To be sure, if all of nursing was on the same page and scientifically-oriented, I have no doubt that in ten years NPs would lawfully comparable to physicians, displace PAs and whomever else they wished. It's a faction and surprisingly successful.

The good NPs become good in spite of their education and training. I rejected nursing indoctrination, to the point of nearly being expelled from RN training. I became cynical over the lack of biology in nursing. I asked too many questions and apparently disrespected the nursing process - faculty words. (Yes, they have a process). In the end, many of us found an interest and have dedicated ourselves to learning our niche. I'm a guy that loves to read, loves to be informed, and loves to work. My loving and beautiful wife and I have always had troubles regarding the circumscribed interests I have developed and time I spend "studying" or catering to them even prior to nursing.

The NP path works for me. I am a medically-oriented guy. I'm good at what I do and make a lot of money doing it. I just hope I can continue this blessing.

 

[675151]

Those were students. Two of the absolutely best providers I know are NPs. One in EM and one in surgery. Both clearly understood the severe limitations of their NP education, sought strong physician mentors early in their NP careers, and worked hard learning what they didn't know so that they could master their craft.

I argue that 5 years out of school, the difference between a PA and a NP is completely dependent upon the person holding the title.

That being said....hire the PA! lol

I think you're right. I've met some NPs who follow a recipe and ask pharmacists what meds to prescribe. I've met others that are brilliant. Brilliance is ONLY achieved by one's own merits. I have known exactly six PAs as their presence in my state is recent. Four were sharp, one over zealous, and the sixth perhaps just extremely too overshadowed by an immediate PA colleague.

Before I go to bed now, I don't understand why NP education is not more similar to PA education. When I was just exploring the idea of "retiring" and entering healthcare, I "assumed" NP school was like med school-lite. I'd only heard the term physician assistant. Come to find out, PA school is med school-lite and NP school is...something quite...unique.

 

[W19]

Those were students. Two of the absolutely best providers I know are NPs. One in EM and one in surgery. Both clearly understood the severe limitations of their NP education, sought strong physician mentors early in their NP careers, and worked hard learning what they didn't know so that they could master their craft.

I argue that 5 years out of school, the difference between a PA and a NP is completely dependent upon the person holding the title.

That being said....hire the PA! lol

Maybe! As a medical student who was a RN, I can tell you my thought process is completely different now. And it's different because of all the stupid basic science courses I have taken in undergrad and med school...

 

[deleted480308]

What you will do will be based solely on economics so preconceived notions need be set aside.

not always, I drive past significantly more economical burritos to get to chipotle

depending on the situation, sometimes "better" is the thing that matters when hiring ancillary staff. If I'm em/fm that's likely pa.....if I'm psych, probably a psych np....