D.O and surgery residencies please help!!!

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indymed said:
Any other good DO general surgery residencies in Ohio?
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Doctor's in Columbus and Grandview in Dayton. Toledo has a new program that may be worth checking out.
 
what i don't understand is, why cant as many osteopathic students match into allopathic programs when many allopathic programs report not being filled, i forget where i read it but i think it was some like 20% of gs allopathic residencies were vacant last year or something, never filled up....why couldnt any DO get into them? (assuming they didnt care about location, etc.)
 
If I remember correctly for the surg forums this spring, only two categorical GS spots went unfilled this year. In the scramble precious spots like this have couple hundred people wanting them.
 
I have a question. If you complete an osteopathic surgery program, are you eligible for allopathic fellowships?

Example:
  • DO -> Osteopathic Plastic surgery program -> ACGME Craniofacial fellowship?
  • DO -> Osteopathic Orthopedic Surg -> ACGME Hand Fellowship

Thanks.

Also... Are there (any/many) Osteopathic fellowship programs (Hand, Craniofacial, Head/Neck, Breast, etc) available? ...And how are these viewed by the Allopathic community?
 
http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/
Here's the link for all osteo residencies.
If you do an osteo residency, there may be problems doing an acgme fellowship due to the fact that they want a graduating fellow to be eligible to be able to be board certified in that sub specialty. If your program was not acgme approved, many sub specialty boards will not let you sit for their exam. If you want to got to an allopathic fellowship I suggest you do an allopathic residency, but it isn't impossible to get an allo fellowship from an osteo residency, its just harder.
 
igcgnerd said:
http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/
Here's the link for all osteo residencies.
If you do an osteo residency, there may be problems doing an acgme fellowship due to the fact that they want a graduating fellow to be eligible to be able to be board certified in that sub specialty. If your program was not acgme approved, many sub specialty boards will not let you sit for their exam. If you want to got to an allopathic fellowship I suggest you do an allopathic residency, but it isn't impossible to get an allo fellowship from an osteo residency, its just harder.
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Thanks that's a great resource. I was also interested to find out if anyone trained in one of these AOA programs has ever had difficulty getting hospital privileges, or been told that they could not practice in a particular area or hospital because their training was not ACGME certified.

Reason I ask is because in the US, Oral and Maxillofacial surgery is not ACGME either, but instead certified by CODA/ADA. There are also CODA/ADA (non-ACGME) certified post-residency fellowships available in (Head and Neck/Microvascular, Craniofacial/Pediatric Maxillofacial, Facial Cosmetic, etc). I have had an ACGME PRS basically tell me that unless my fellowships were ACGME accredited I would find it difficult to get hospital privileges. (Obviously mainly because he felt threatend I would be encroaching on his turf).
I disagreed (basically told him to get stuffed) and pointed out that Osteopathic also similarly have equivalent fellowships that are also non-ACGME accredited and they are licensed as equal providers just as we are. 👍

Thoughts?
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
I have a question. If you complete an osteopathic surgery program, are you eligible for allopathic fellowships?

Example:
  • DO -> Osteopathic Plastic surgery program -> ACGME Craniofacial fellowship?
  • DO -> Osteopathic Orthopedic Surg -> ACGME Hand Fellowship
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Yes.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
Thanks that's a great resource. I was also interested to find out if anyone trained in one of these AOA programs has ever had difficulty getting hospital privileges, or been told that they could not practice in a particular area or hospital because their training was not ACGME certified.
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No.
P.S. that would be illegal.
 
Anyone know of a yearly/multi-year report of passing rates for the oral and written boards for each of the DO GS programs? Or, if you happen to know your program's pass rates, please share, thanks!
 
I was wondering if anyone here could help me. I want to go into surgery and possible specialize in trauma surgery. I am debating between attending NOVA or AZCOM. Ive asked several times in the pre-med forum and all they say is to choose the one who's climate you liked best. Does anyone know which of these two schools would offer me the best connections/clinical rotations for getting into a good surgical residency. Please reply or pm me, I need to put down a deposit soon.
 
zch76,
i hear that nova has a great rotation in trauma surgery (at a hospital called Memorial Hospital), but i'm not sure what kind of connections this could generate. I don't know anything about azcom but i hear the didactics are great there.
 
zch76 said:
I was wondering if anyone here could help me. I want to go into surgery and possible specialize in trauma surgery. I am debating between attending NOVA or AZCOM. Ive asked several times in the pre-med forum and all they say is to choose the one who's climate you liked best. Does anyone know which of these two schools would offer me the best connections/clinical rotations for getting into a good surgical residency. Please reply or pm me, I need to put down a deposit soon.
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While you may be able to get into a good surgery program going anywhere, as long as you really want it and work really hard, I would say that with all the new changes at AZCOM, including restrictions on out of state rotations and difficulty in getting local ward-based rotations as well as the increase in class size from 140 to 250, it is best to not go there if you really want surgery. Now, I don't know much about NOVA, but in general you want to go to a school that is facilitates your learning and will give you every opportunity to succeed. That place will not be AZCOM. Having said this, it is a lot easier to get into a DO surgery program, so if DO residency is what you want and you really really want to go to AZCOM, you can probably make it happen there.
 
goooooober said:
While you may be able to get into a good surgery program going anywhere, as long as you really want it and work really hard, I would say that with all the new changes at AZCOM, including restrictions on out of state rotations and difficulty in getting local ward-based rotations as well as the increase in class size from 140 to 250, it is best to not go there if you really want surgery. Now, I don't know much about NOVA, but in general you want to go to a school that is facilitates your learning and will give you every opportunity to succeed. That place will not be AZCOM. Having said this, it is a lot easier to get into a DO surgery program, so if DO residency is what you want and you really really want to go to AZCOM, you can probably make it happen there.
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I've been out of the game for some time but I was once upon a time gung-ho on getting allo surgery....until I did my anesthesia rotation. Never looked back.

As for the school It doesn't matter. What matters is that you schedule 3-4 back to back surgery rotations early 4th year if you wanna match at a allo place.

1-2 surgical SUB-I's, a trauma surg, and one SICU month will do it. Smoke em. You'll be incredibly studly after this run. That'll give you enough time to get a couple of decent surgical letters by the time October/November rolls around and when your letters will be read (during interviews).

Take the USMLE and CRUSH IT.

If you REALLY are serious then do a month or two of research at an academic gen-surg program between 1st and 2nd years of med school. Look through the NIH or something. Trust me, if you want it, there is plenty of research out there.

Do those things and then you'll have a shot at an academic allo gensurg program. So I don't think the school has a damn thing to do with it. The thing that sucks is that you're dedicating your self to one path early 4th year This removes the opportunity to see what other fields have to offer before the ERAS apps have to be in.

As for DO surgery, just rotate somewhere. Act like you care. You'll get in. Ask when you are there if those guys match into trauma fellowships. I would imagine they would. Its not "that" competitive from what I understand. Plus the lifestyle is good for a surgeon in that field.
 
god it's been a rough rough week here at school for me..crazy amount of work and exams following. Anyways, how's everyone doing? I rarely have time to be on SDN..can't imagine how it will be during board prep time. Any of you miss college? I miss it a lot..now every day seems so automatic work, work, work. Anyone mourning sean taylor's death? I was quite saddened..
 
VentdependenT said:
I've been out of the game for some time but I was once upon a time gung-ho on getting allo surgery....until I did my anesthesia rotation. Never looked back.

As for the school It doesn't matter. What matters is that you schedule 3-4 back to back surgery rotations early 4th year if you wanna match at a allo place.

1-2 surgical SUB-I's, a trauma surg, and one SICU month will do it. Smoke em. You'll be incredibly studly after this run. That'll give you enough time to get a couple of decent surgical letters by the time October/November rolls around and when your letters will be read (during interviews).

Take the USMLE and CRUSH IT.

If you REALLY are serious then do a month or two of research at an academic gen-surg program between 1st and 2nd years of med school. Look through the NIH or something. Trust me, if you want it, there is plenty of research out there.

Do those things and then you'll have a shot at an academic allo gensurg program. So I don't think the school has a damn thing to do with it. The thing that sucks is that you're dedicating your self to one path early 4th year This removes the opportunity to see what other fields have to offer before the ERAS apps have to be in.

As for DO surgery, just rotate somewhere. Act like you care. You'll get in. Ask when you are there if those guys match into trauma fellowships. I would imagine they would. Its not "that" competitive from what I understand. Plus the lifestyle is good for a surgeon in that field.
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Well i am not going to bash DO surgery programs (reading in btw the lines) but i do plan on doing research this summer at Columbia University. Yes i am already researching some possible 4th yr rotation sites ( hobby)...i spoke to couple of my cousins who are doing ENT right now and they said it multiple times that rotations are auditions, which you need to rock! Board scores are imp as well but would hurt you if your rotations were bad vice versa. I am still open to both DO/MD surgical programs..i think both have their pro's and con's. For me the difference isn't vital..i want to be a surgeon that's all (DO or MD).
 
zch76 said:
I was wondering if anyone here could help me. I want to go into surgery and possible specialize in trauma surgery. I am debating between attending NOVA or AZCOM. Ive asked several times in the pre-med forum and all they say is to choose the one who's climate you liked best. Does anyone know which of these two schools would offer me the best connections/clinical rotations for getting into a good surgical residency. Please reply or pm me, I need to put down a deposit soon.
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I think its a myth that school determines where you will end up..sure it might influence your decisions but you ultimately will be repsonsible for your own actions. For instance, schools might teach material differently and during different times in a year but all medical schools will give you what you need to become a doctor..most of the time it's the STUDENT who doesn't grasp the material well enough or simply hasn't worked hard enough. I will be lieing if i blamed the school for my faults..there are things i can do better i know and when i do i will be a better student very simple. I am sure there are exceptions like some school might be overly unenthusiastic about their students but in general that's never the case. Medical school is self teaching and when you realize that you'll succeed, i guarantee it!! The only thing you need to consider before going to med school is their location, cost and facilities..do you see those things fitting well with your lifestyle? Do you think you can go to a school far away from your family? So please don't get caught up with why some school is bad...there are some really awesome established medical schools out there but i never hate my school or feel a reason to complain..then again my school is great j/k. All iam saying is that it's a privilege, work hard and you'll be fine.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
I have a question. If you complete an osteopathic surgery program, are you eligible for allopathic fellowships?

Example:
  • DO -> Osteopathic Plastic surgery program -> ACGME Craniofacial fellowship?
  • DO -> Osteopathic Orthopedic Surg -> ACGME Hand Fellowship

Thanks.

Also... Are there (any/many) Osteopathic fellowship programs (Hand, Craniofacial, Head/Neck, Breast, etc) available? ...And how are these viewed by the Allopathic community?
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Well that's one of the advantages of being a DO you got dual paths. However, it would be a tough road if you want to do an allo fellowship following a DO residency. Esp plastics..its hard for both MD's and DO's.
 
travoltage said:
what i don't understand is, why cant as many osteopathic students match into allopathic programs when many allopathic programs report not being filled, i forget where i read it but i think it was some like 20% of gs allopathic residencies were vacant last year or something, never filled up....why couldnt any DO get into them? (assuming they didnt care about location, etc.)
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Two. There were Two spots that were not filled in the match last year, and they filled immediately. General Surgery is getting more competetive, especially with the 80 hour work week. Most Allopathic programs require USMLE, and at least at my school, they tried to feed us this BS about how we didn't really need to take USMLE and everyone would accept our COMLEX.

The number you're referring to (80%) is probably the fact only about 80% of spots were filled by US Seniors. US seniors only includes MD graduates entering residency immediately after graduation. that means 20% are either Osteopathic or FMG.
 
Lamborghini1315 said:
Well that's one of the advantages of being a DO you got dual paths. However, it would be a tough road if you want to do an allo fellowship following a DO residency. Esp plastics..its hard for both MD's and DO's.
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Eligible, yes...

Likelihood of matching into an extremely competitive fellowship (i.e. Hand or Craniofacial) from an osteopathic residency...I'm a betting man, and I'd bet against you, no matter how good, smart, hard working, etc, you are.

That being said, I do know of one person who matched into Trauma/Critical Care at UPenn after doing general surgery at PCOM. As far as others matching into fellowship, I don't know anyone.
 
You're at Rush? do you know Sandeep Krishnan? I went to undergrad with him. Tell him Raj said what's up. Also, one of your interns, Fritz Disque, was a med school classmate of mine. Whoop his ass. j/k he's a buddy as well.
 
that guy is freakin hilarious. You ever party with the rest of the philly crew (Kiran, Kinjal, etc.) We used to tear it up at Penn State.
 
RajMahal said:
Eligible, yes...

Likelihood of matching into an extremely competitive fellowship (i.e. Hand or Craniofacial) from an osteopathic residency...I'm a betting man, and I'd bet against you, no matter how good, smart, hard working, etc, you are.

That being said, I do know of one person who matched into Trauma/Critical Care at UPenn after doing general surgery at PCOM. As far as others matching into fellowship, I don't know anyone.
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Read my post again that was my point..you repeated what i said. Anyways, my point still is you have an option inspite of doing an osteopathic residency but it would be one tough option.
 
Toohotinvegas33 said:
One of my biochem profs who taught at a USMD school said the comlex was more advanced because it was mostly clinical. Whereas the USMLE was more of "what enzyme is in this random obscure pathway". Anyhow, if you know your stuff you should do well on both.
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The COMLEX being "more advanced" is a load of crap. COMLEX is a poorly written test that anyone who memorized buzzwords can do well on.
USMLE has more second and third order questions, which are more difficult, and rely on a solid basic science foundation i.e. molecular biochemistry, genetics, and pathology, which are largely lacking in Osteopathic education (at least they were in mine).

I am a proponent of making all DO's take the USMLE and having a separate test in osteopathic manipulation theory and practice.

If we want MD's to treat us as equals (see footnote), we will have to prove ourselves. Unfortunate, but that's just the way it is. If you think you're just as good as any MD applicant, prove it by taking the USMLE and scoring as well or better than them. I know that some people aren't good test-takers, but that's the only basis on which MD programs can calibrate all their applicants, so study up. I did better on USMLE, but I also took extra time off to study for USMLE. The time and money spent are well worth it.

footnote: One of my fellow interns is an MD graduate from Michigan State, which as most of you know, also has an Osteopathic medical school class. I asked her if there was bad blood between the MD's and DO's, and she said there was some, mostly because the DO's didn't have to score as high on the same exams in order to pass (DO pass is 75% and MD pass is 80%). I was absolutely horrified How can you possibly expect MD's to treat us as equals when we don't hold ourselves to the same standard? People will cry and whine, "we have OMM to study for." Give me a break. They always say, "we learn everything that MD's learn and then some". Prove it, people.
 
RajMahal said:
that guy is freakin hilarious. You ever party with the rest of the philly crew (Kiran, Kinjal, etc.) We used to tear it up at Penn State.
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A few times with those other fellas over at Northwestern. Otherwise I try and kick it with deep once a month or so, wife (mine) permitting.
 
PCOM GS had >30 applicants PER AVAILABLE SPOT this year.

Some info about PCOM GS:

Largest osteopathic GS program in the country, currently training 29 residents with more approved spots for next year.

PCOM GS residents hold ALL the board position on the ACOS Resident Executive Board.

~80% of PCOM GS residents go on to complete fellowships....recent grads are currently doing: Vascular, Plastic Surgery, Trauma/CCS, Breast, Colorectal and Cosmetic Surgery.

PCOM GS residents easily surpass the minimum caseload necessary for completion of an AOA GS program...some of our chiefs in recent years have gotten nearly 3 times the number of cases required (>1200).

Our program is set up so that R4s, and occasionally R3s, act in Chief roles at their designated hospitals...no need to wait until you are an R5 to start running a service.

Current Hospitals: (with plans of expanding as our funding expands)
- Memorial Sloan Kettering - Oncology
- University of Pennsylvania - Trauma, Critical Care Surgery
- Cooper University - Trauma
- Geisinger Hospital - Colorectal, Pediatrics, Minimally Invasive, Transplant
- Frankford Hospitals - General, Vascular
- Crozer Hospitals - Trauma, General
- Deborah Heart & Lung - Cardiothoracic

Google some of the hospitals above...I think you will be impressed with the training sites that we have.

Remember, not all programs are created equal.
 
As a medical student from Des Moines, I did my Core GS rotation at Frankford Hospitals (with Dr. Kliefoth, et. al) and the PCOM surgery residents. It was a fantastic experience, and had I chosen to do an Osteopathic GS program, it would have been PCOM hands down. It is BY FAR the best DO surgery program out there, and also the most competetive.

The only reason I didn't do it is that My wife and I were doing the couples' match, and as you know, there is no AOA couples' match, and the Osteopathic Peds programs pale in comparison to the allopathic programs.
 
RajMahal said:
It is BY FAR the best DO surgery program out there, and also the most competetive.
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More than just your opinion as well. Just ask ACOS. 👍
 
Quick question/comment on those stellar rotation sites at PCOM. Some of these hospitals (UPENN, Geisinger, Cooper) have their own General Surgery Programs. I'm interested to know how your operative experience is at such institutions. Do you carry the same case load as the "home" residents? Do you get to scrub on the really interesting/complicated cases? Speaking from my 6 months of rotating as an osteopathic student without a home-institution, I have found when I go to a hospital that has primary affiliation with other medical colleges that the osteopathic students often get pushed to the side and are not given preference. Fortunately, I've realized this and I go above and beyond to make sure I'm getting the absolute most out of my education and I am not being made a second-rate medical student. But anyway, I would be interested to hear about the experience at those hospitals. Thanks!

P.S. - Why PCOM affiliated with Sloan and not Fox Chase given Fox's location?
 
ArcherM2 said:
Do you carry the same case load as the "home" residents? Do you get to scrub on the really interesting/complicated cases? Speaking from my 6 months of rotating as an osteopathic student without a home-institution, I have found when I go to a hospital that has primary affiliation with other medical colleges that the osteopathic students often get pushed to the side and are not given preference.
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This is a great point that applicants need to consider when looking at DO surgery programs. Why would this program need to send me out so much? How can my program director actually direct my education when I'm at the mercy of outside rotators so often?

As a disclaimer, I'm not knocking PCOM. I know little about their program. I'm speaking generally here.
 
ArcherM2 said:
Quick question/comment on those stellar rotation sites at PCOM. Some of these hospitals (UPENN, Geisinger, Cooper) have their own General Surgery Programs. I'm interested to know how your operative experience is at such institutions. Do you carry the same case load as the "home" residents? Do you get to scrub on the really interesting/complicated cases? Speaking from my 6 months of rotating as an osteopathic student without a home-institution, I have found when I go to a hospital that has primary affiliation with other medical colleges that the osteopathic students often get pushed to the side and are not given preference. Fortunately, I've realized this and I go above and beyond to make sure I'm getting the absolute most out of my education and I am not being made a second-rate medical student. But anyway, I would be interested to hear about the experience at those hospitals. Thanks!
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Good point.

Those hospitals pay for PCOM general surgery residents to help staff their surgical services because of a need to fill certain spots.

For example, Geisinger has 12 surgical residents (R2 through R5). PCOM sends 4 residents per month (different years) to rotate through 4 services where Geisinger needs surgical coverage but just doesnt have the numbers to staff.

There are some times when the PCOM resident is the only resident on service and other times when the PCOM resident shares a service with a resident from the home institution...often the residents are different years.

I have not heard of any instances where non-native residents are bumped from cases by other same-year home residents. Residents can be bumped from cases by Fellows...but that happens every where you go.

P.S. - Why PCOM affiliated with Sloan and not Fox Chase given Fox's location?
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PCOMs surgical affiliation with MSK goes back a few years. To be honest, I dont know why we spend time there as opposed to Fox Chase...but IMHO I would rather be at Sloan. If youre going to sacrifice as a surgical resident you want to be at the best hospitals you can be. And it doesnt get any better than Sloan Kettering. (fact, not opinion)
 
San_Juan_Sun said:
This is a great point that applicants need to consider when looking at DO surgery programs. Why would this program need to send me out so much? How can my program director actually direct my education when I'm at the mercy of outside rotators so often?

As a disclaimer, I'm not knocking PCOM. I know little about their program. I'm speaking generally here.
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Your concern is a valid one.

There are 2 things to look at.

NEED to send out and DESIRE to send out.

We dont NEED to go to Sloan Kettering for Surgical Oncology, but you bet your ass people WANT to.

As for the program director having close contact with our education, thats not really an issue. Consider the list of hospitals we staff. 9 of them are within 20 minutes of PCOM. 1 is 45 minutes away and only 2 are truly "away" being ~2 hours from PCOM.
 
Being farmed out to a bunch of other hospitals implies that the training at the base hospital isn't up to snuff. Sounds like a real pain to me.
 
bobo said:
Being farmed out to a bunch of other hospitals implies that the training at the base hospital isn't up to snuff. Sounds like a real pain to me.
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Well, we dont have a "base" hospital to speak of. PCOM doesnt have a hospital at all. But the 2 hospital systems that we are primary surgical house staff (total of 5 hospitals all within 20 minutes of PCOM) allows us to get all of the cases we need except for Pediatrics and Transplant. They offer General, Trauma, MIS, Colorectal, Vascular, Burn and Thoracic.

As said above, its not about the NEED to go elsewhere but the opportunity to do so.

Youre telling me that a surgical resident wouldnt want the opportunity to train at Memorial Sloan Kettering for Surg Onc? Or how about UPENN for Trauma/Surgical Critical Care? You would be crazy to turn down the opportunity to spend time on those services.

So other than the few dozen cases needed for Peds and Transplant, we have more than enough cases at our 5 primary sites.

But I suppose there are lots of programs that must not be "up to snuff" as they send their residents elsewhere too...many programs are based in more than one primary institution. Take a look at the rotation schedule for the other major surgical residency programs in Philadelphia and you will see what I mean.

Now, bobo, you of course knew that...youve been around long enough. But being who you are Im not surprised you decided to ask something like that in an attempt to discredit an osteopathic education...hoping someone would read your comments and not investigate for themselves that the way the PCOM GS program is set up is in line with other large surgical programs. Remember...we have more than 30 residents (or will come next year). When youre program is that big, you need to find the best opportunities for your people. And if that means "sacrificing" so that you can rotate at one of the top cancer hospitals in the world or at an away hospital so that you can easily obtain all the cases needed for a specific defined category in just one month, then I am willing to do that...especially when the "away" hospitals we are "farmed" to have FELLOWSHIPS. Hmmm...what better way to interview for a fellowship at an away place than to work there for a month as a resident...rather than relying on just LOR and board scores.

But once again, one of us has the facts and the other just has the cynicism. 😉
 
Would UPenn be a better experience for trauma/critical care than Temple?
 
UPENN has a 56 bed SICU that has about 2500 patients/year. 1500 trauma admits come through the ER annually. They have 10 trauma/SCC fellows.

Temple doesnt (to my knowledge) have an accredited trauma fellowship. I dont know how busy they are as far as a trauma service goes, but I believe their ER is near the top in the city as far as patients seen/year.

Cooper (the other place PCOM does trauma) sees about 2200 patients/year...its the busiest trauma center in New Jersey.
 
Dr JPH said:
Your concern is a valid one.
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Yes, I know.

Dr JPH said:
There are 2 things to look at.

NEED to send out and DESIRE to send out.

We dont NEED to go to Sloan Kettering for Surgical Oncology, but you bet your ass people WANT to.
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I really don't want to make this about PCOM, so I'll try to still speak generally. You said yourself that PCOM doesn't have a base hospital. That in itself tells me that your program NEEDS to send you out (all 30 of you). I don't doubt that you rotate at phenomenal facilities, but the fact remains, you rotate out based on need.

Applicants need to know this stuff when they apply to residency. Some people may prefer to be based out a strong main hospital, others may like to rotate around at different sites. Different strokes, you know? There are certainly pros and cons to both. All the more reason for osteopathic students to be very forward in gathering information, rotating early and often, and in applying widely.
 
San_Juan_Sun said:
You said yourself that PCOM doesn't have a base hospital.
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True, we dont have a hospital with our name on it. So if an applicant wants to be able to walk into a hospital every day that has the same name on the front door as on their white coat, then Im sorry PCOM is not for you.
 
I might just make my own sign, and put it in front of wherever I happen to be rotating.
 
Dr JPH said:
Well, we dont have a "base" hospital to speak of. PCOM doesnt have a hospital at all. But the 2 hospital systems that we are primary surgical house staff (total of 5 hospitals all within 20 minutes of PCOM) allows us to get all of the cases we need except for Pediatrics and Transplant. They offer General, Trauma, MIS, Colorectal, Vascular, Burn and Thoracic.

As said above, its not about the NEED to go elsewhere but the opportunity to do so.

Youre telling me that a surgical resident wouldnt want the opportunity to train at Memorial Sloan Kettering for Surg Onc? Or how about UPENN for Trauma/Surgical Critical Care? You would be crazy to turn down the opportunity to spend time on those services.

So other than the few dozen cases needed for Peds and Transplant, we have more than enough cases at our 5 primary sites.

But I suppose there are lots of programs that must not be "up to snuff" as they send their residents elsewhere too...many programs are based in more than one primary institution. Take a look at the rotation schedule for the other major surgical residency programs in Philadelphia and you will see what I mean.

Now, bobo, you of course knew that...youve been around long enough. But being who you are Im not surprised you decided to ask something like that in an attempt to discredit an osteopathic education...hoping someone would read your comments and not investigate for themselves that the way the PCOM GS program is set up is in line with other large surgical programs. Remember...we have more than 30 residents (or will come next year). When youre program is that big, you need to find the best opportunities for your people. And if that means "sacrificing" so that you can rotate at one of the top cancer hospitals in the world or at an away hospital so that you can easily obtain all the cases needed for a specific defined category in just one month, then I am willing to do that...especially when the "away" hospitals we are "farmed" to have FELLOWSHIPS. Hmmm...what better way to interview for a fellowship at an away place than to work there for a month as a resident...rather than relying on just LOR and board scores.

But once again, one of us has the facts and the other just has the cynicism. 😉
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Well JPH I have to hand it to you for not taking the bait and for taking the high road in your response. I am sure you will be a competent surgeon when you finish your training in the PCOM program. Obviously you are Ok with floating around to 7 different hospitals and not having a home and that's OK. The places you go to all sound like pretty good places to train. Wide-eyed premeds and MS-0's who think that the list rules need to look a little further beyond those names. there is a discussion on the surg board where residents are expressing surprise that other residents are outsourced like this. 7 hospitals means 7 computer systems, badges, facilities, staff, attendings, OR's, etc, etc, etc. I like having one place that I call home. Also it seems to me that your leash will be a little short if you are continually having new attendings that have never worked with you. Anecdotally, when I was rotating through MCP one of the surgery residents commented that while MSK was a big name, she had heard that the PCOM residents were treated like crap up there. A fancy name may not be all it is cracked up to be. Later.
 
I don't think its all that uncommon for residents to work at several different sites.
 
bobo said:
Anecdotally, when I was rotating through MCP one of the surgery residents commented that while MSK was a big name, she had heard that the PCOM residents were treated like crap up there.
Click to expand...

Actually, I've heard that also.

On a side note, at our facility, we rotate at a few different hospitals. We cover the VA, as well as two private hospitals in town, for precisely the same reason that JPH mentioned. At the University hospital, there was a turf war between ENT and GS for thyroids/parathyroids. ENT won. So now, as a pgy3, we spend 3 months at a private hospital, and one of the attendings we work with does mostly breat, thyroid, and parathyroid surgery. we get most of our cases in that defined category there. As an intern, we have an away rotation at St. Vincent hospital in Santa Fe. That's where I am right now. I'm the only resident, I don't take call, and I just get to do a bunch of cases with the attendings. If anyone I operate on gets admitted, I round on them and write orders. It's monday-thursday, then fridays is our educational block time, and we take weekend call back at the U.
That being said, most of our time is spent at the University hospital. That was my biggest complaint as a medical student, was not having a home institution for everything. However, rotating at many different places has made me very efficient at adapting to several different computer systems, and I have a GLORIOUS collection of ID badges from places all over the country.
 
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