D.O and surgery residencies please help!!!

[ArcherM2]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I have a GLORIOUS collection of ID badges from places all over the country.

The only thing I love about not having a home institution!

 

[Dr JPH]

Well JPH I have to hand it to you for not taking the bait and for taking the high road in your response. I am sure you will be a competent surgeon when you finish your training in the PCOM program. Obviously you are Ok with floating around to 7 different hospitals and not having a home and that's OK. The places you go to all sound like pretty good places to train. Wide-eyed premeds and MS-0's who think that the list rules need to look a little further beyond those names. there is a discussion on the surg board where residents are expressing surprise that other residents are outsourced like this. 7 hospitals means 7 computer systems, badges, facilities, staff, attendings, OR's, etc, etc, etc. I like having one place that I call home. Also it seems to me that your leash will be a little short if you are continually having new attendings that have never worked with you. Anecdotally, when I was rotating through MCP one of the surgery residents commented that while MSK was a big name, she had heard that the PCOM residents were treated like crap up there. A fancy name may not be all it is cracked up to be. Later.

Funny.

You make assumptions about how things "must be", though you have no clue because your not here.

And yet you discredit what I say, who is part of this program, and tell me how bad it is.

I dont get it.

Why are you so concerned about the education of surgical residents in Philadelphia? Our program is sending people into great fellowships every year. Our upper years residents are getting more than twice the number of cases they need to graduate.

You make it sound like we're outsourced to random hospitals. Its not like that.

As I said, we have 2 main hospital systems (5 campuses total) where we spend most of our time PGY1 through PGY5. We spend more than enough time there to develop a strong relationship with attendings...afterall, they float between the campuses within the same system as well. So lets call these our "home" hospitals.

PGY 1 is all home
PGY 2 you spend 6 months "away" (only 4 months outside Philly)
PGY 3 you spend 4 months "away" (only 2 months outside Philly)
PGY 4 is all home
PGY 5 is all home

So in 5 years you are "away" for 10 months...at our non-dominant hospitals, with only 6 months total being outside Philly or truly "away".

So you can see the great majority of your time is spent within the 2 major hospital systems that we staff. Our residents hardly live out of suitcases and you know your schedule a year in advance.

 

[goooooober]

Funny.

You make assumptions about how things "must be", though you have no clue because your not here.

And yet you discredit what I say, who is part of this program, and tell me how bad it is.

I dont get it.

Why are you so concerned about the education of surgical residents in Philadelphia? Our program is sending people into great fellowships every year. Our upper years residents are getting more than twice the number of cases they need to graduate.

You make it sound like we're outsourced to random hospitals. Its not like that.

As I said, we have 2 main hospital systems (5 campuses total) where we spend most of our time PGY1 through PGY5. We spend more than enough time there to develop a strong relationship with attendings...afterall, they float between the campuses within the same system as well. So lets call these our "home" hospitals.

PGY 1 is all home
PGY 2 you spend 6 months "away" (only 4 months outside Philly)
PGY 3 you spend 4 months "away" (only 2 months outside Philly)
PGY 4 is all home
PGY 5 is all home

So in 5 years you are "away" for 10 months...at our non-dominant hospitals, with only 6 months total being outside Philly or truly "away".

So you can see the great majority of your time is spent within the 2 major hospital systems that we staff. Our residents hardly live out of suitcases and you know your schedule a year in advance.

Are there any DO schools out there with their own hospital? It amazes me that some of these schools have been around for over a hundred years and yet do not have their own hospital. As far as PCOM goes, where do the residents stay during the 6 months that they are outside of philly? Do they rent a place or does the program provide housing? I think there is something to be said about going to major institutions and getting exposure to awesome cases. On the other hand, it is also nice to be localized in one to three institutions near eachother where you can get trained without the inconvenience of driving far or living somewhere else.

 

[medhacker]

Are there any DO schools out there with their own hospital? It amazes me that some of these schools have been around for over a hundred years and yet do not have their own hospital. As far as PCOM goes, where do the residents stay during the 6 months that they are outside of philly? Do they rent a place or does the program provide housing? I think there is something to be said about going to major institutions and getting exposure to awesome cases. On the other hand, it is also nice to be localized in one to three institutions near eachother where you can get trained without the inconvenience of driving far or living somewhere else.

gooooober,

It's odd you ask that, given that you are a DO and were on a past thread where the very subject was discussed [Exhibit A]

 

[Buckeye4life]

Are there any DO schools out there with their own hospital? It amazes me that some of these schools have been around for over a hundred years and yet do not have their own hospital. As far as PCOM goes, where do the residents stay during the 6 months that they are outside of philly? Do they rent a place or does the program provide housing? I think there is something to be said about going to major institutions and getting exposure to awesome cases. On the other hand, it is also nice to be localized in one to three institutions near eachother where you can get trained without the inconvenience of driving far or living somewhere else.

LEOM-Erie has Millcreek Hospital. However, from what I've heard, residents rotate through about 6 different locations.

 

[Dr JPH]

Are there any DO schools out there with their own hospital? It amazes me that some of these schools have been around for over a hundred years and yet do not have their own hospital. As far as PCOM goes, where do the residents stay during the 6 months that they are outside of philly? Do they rent a place or does the program provide housing? I think there is something to be said about going to major institutions and getting exposure to awesome cases. On the other hand, it is also nice to be localized in one to three institutions near eachother where you can get trained without the inconvenience of driving far or living somewhere else.

PCOM had a hospital. Unfortunately it was privately owned and closed, along with a half dozen other hospitals in the city. No plans to scout another because of the affiliation we have with multiple large hospital system around here.

During the 6 away months our residents are provided with housing.

And as said above, the great majority of your time is spent at a few places. People are hearing "away rotations" and not investigating the reality of the situation.

 

[goooooober]

gooooober,

It's odd you ask that, given that you are a DO and were on a past thread where the very subject was discussed [Exhibit A]

Excellent detective work. I already know that I am a DO, and your exhibit has nothing to do with my question. I asked if there are any DO schools out there with their own hospital. Just because I am a DO doesn't mean I know every other DO school and their facilities.

 

[medhacker]

Excellent detective work. I already know that I am a DO, and your exhibit has nothing to do with my question. I asked if there are any DO schools out there with their own hospital. Just because I am a DO doesn't mean I know every other DO school and their facilities.

goooooober,

It [DO school with its own hospital] was mentioned at least twice (or thrice) on that thread, even right above a reply of yours.

 

[RajMahal]

LEOM-Erie has Millcreek Hospital. However, from what I've heard, residents rotate through about 6 different locations.

I grew up 5 minutes away from Millcreek Community Hospital. It was there before LECOM, they just have an affiliation with it. It's not LECOM's hospital.

 

[bobo]

Funny.

You make assumptions about how things "must be", though you have no clue because your not here.

And yet you discredit what I say, who is part of this program, and tell me how bad it is.

I dont get it.

Why are you so concerned about the education of surgical residents in Philadelphia? Our program is sending people into great fellowships every year. Our upper years residents are getting more than twice the number of cases they need to graduate.

You make it sound like we're outsourced to random hospitals. Its not like that.

As I said, we have 2 main hospital systems (5 campuses total) where we spend most of our time PGY1 through PGY5. We spend more than enough time there to develop a strong relationship with attendings...afterall, they float between the campuses within the same system as well. So lets call these our "home" hospitals.

PGY 1 is all home
PGY 2 you spend 6 months "away" (only 4 months outside Philly)
PGY 3 you spend 4 months "away" (only 2 months outside Philly)
PGY 4 is all home
PGY 5 is all home

So in 5 years you are "away" for 10 months...at our non-dominant hospitals, with only 6 months total being outside Philly or truly "away".

So you can see the great majority of your time is spent within the 2 major hospital systems that we staff. Our residents hardly live out of suitcases and you know your schedule a year in advance.

alright JPH, I will let this one go. The PCOM surgical residency is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But it may not be for everyone and I don't back down from the assertion that being outsourced to multiple other facilities isn't really a good thing and that just being a big name doesn't mean anything in terms of the actual benefit to your residency education.

 

[Dr JPH]

alright JPH, I will let this one go. The PCOM surgical residency is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But it may not be for everyone and I don't back down from the assertion that being outsourced to multiple other facilities isn't really a good thing and that just being a big name doesn't mean anything in terms of the actual benefit to your residency education.

Lets hear about your residency bobo.

 

[beastmaster]

I'd hate to derail this Gen Surg lovefest, but are there any osteopathic ENT residents in the house??

 

[Dr JPH]

I'd hate to derail this Gen Surg lovefest, but are there any osteopathic ENT residents in the house??

I KNOW a few ENT peeps.

 

[bobo]

Lets hear about your residency bobo.

Moderately competitive specialty, 1200+ bed academic medical center w/all services including burn unit, around 15 residents per class. Free meals on call. Great didactics. 1 off site location very nearby for 3 months or so.

 

[Dr JPH]

Moderately competitive specialty, 1200+ bed academic medical center w/all services including burn unit, around 15 residents per class. Free meals on call. Great didactics. 1 off site location very nearby for 3 months or so.

What specialty

 

[RajMahal]

Free meals on call.

Well that must mean that it's Top Notch!

lol. j/k. I'm sure that your residency program is better than everyone else's.

 

[bobo]

Well that must mean that it's Top Notch!

lol. j/k. I'm sure that your residency program is better than everyone else's.

lol, the meal comment was tongue in cheek. But I do like those free meals.

 

[RajMahal]

lol, the meal comment was tongue in cheek. But I do like those free meals.

we get like 2400 per year to spend at the cafeteria. it's nice.

 

[Dr JPH]

lol, the meal comment was tongue in cheek. But I do like those free meals.

What specialty are you doing, in between eating of course. 😉

 

[Lokhtar]

alright JPH, I will let this one go. The PCOM surgical residency is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But it may not be for everyone and I don't back down from the assertion that being outsourced to multiple other facilities isn't really a good thing and that just being a big name doesn't mean anything in terms of the actual benefit to your residency education.

Err, I don't think he was claiming his residency is the greatest thing since sliced bread - he is just saying that, in his experience, the rotating between the hospitals hasn't been that big of a deal.

 

[RockfordWF]

Hey am contemplating applying to both Do and MD for I just want to practice medicine.This is where the problem lies, I just want to have a fiar shot at landing a surgery residency, will my chances be depleted if I go to a DO school? I would hate for two letters after my name to be a determining factor when it comes time for residencies. Please help any insight will be greatly appreciated,

If you are accepted to an MD school and want to do surgery, you must go to the MD school.

 

[Dr JPH]

If you are accepted to an MD school and want to do surgery, you must go to the MD school.

Listen up kids, this comes from a fellow medical student. 👍

🙄

 

[RockfordWF]

Listen up kids, this comes from a fellow medical student. 👍

🙄

If you don't think it is more difficult to get into a surgery residency as a DO, then you are only kidding yourself.

 

[Dr JPH]

If you don't think it is more difficult to get into a surgery residency as a DO, then you are only kidding yourself.

I do indeed sit at home kidding myself about things. Happens all the time. 😎

 

[RajMahal]

If you are accepted to an MD school and want to do surgery, you must go to the MD school.

I disagree. I don't think that you "must" go to the MD school, but that being said, it is more difficult to do surgery coming from a DO school as there are fewer osteopathic spots and MD surgery has bias against DO's somewhere. That being said, General Surgery as a specialty is getting more and more competetive, and just getting an MD is not necessarily going to guarantee you a surigical residency spot, especially if your MD is not from an LCME continental US Medical school.

 

[RockfordWF]

I disagree. I don't think that you "must" go to the MD school, but that being said, it is more difficult to do surgery coming from a DO school as there are fewer osteopathic spots and MD surgery has bias against DO's somewhere. That being said, General Surgery as a specialty is getting more and more competetive, and just getting an MD is not necessarily going to guarantee you a surigical residency spot, especially if your MD is not from an LCME continental US Medical school.

Going to the DO school over the MD school "guarantees" you will have a harder time getting into residency unless you do extremely above average in school...

 

[Dr JPH]

Going to the DO school over the MD school "guarantees" you will have a harder time getting into residency unless you do extremely above average in school...

Personal experience, or just what you have heard?

 

[Dr JPH]

I heard you have to be rejected from at least 3 Ortho programs before you're allowed to do General Surgery.

Thats true.

🙄


😉

 

[J1515]

Originally Posted by RockfordWF View Post
Going to the DO school over the MD school "guarantees" you will have a harder time getting into residency unless you do extremely above average in school...

Personal experience, or just what you have heard?

I don't want this to seem like I'm brown-nosing, but I love watching you put people in their place when they speak of things they know little about.

 

[Dr JPH]

I don't want this to seem like I'm brown-nosing, but I love watching you put people in their place when they speak of things they know little about.

Its tough when you know significantly more than the people around you.

Maybe I need to stop hanging out in here and just let the ignorance take hold.

 

[RajMahal]

Going to the DO school over the MD school "guarantees" you will have a harder time getting into residency unless you do extremely above average in school...

I know plenty of people who were US grads and had a choice between DO school or the carribbean for an MD. Even with their MD's from the carribbean, they have had a difficult time matching into surgery. I think that the bottom line is that you should try and go to the best school that you can.

My point was that not all MD's are treated equally. MD grads of carribbean schools are treated differently than those from US schools.

 

[Shinken]

Its tough when you know significantly more than the people around you.

Maybe I need to stop hanging out in here and just let the ignorance take hold.

Yes, get out of this thread. Head over to the "Nutrition and DOs" thread for some good information on the sad state of medical education and clinical medicine in the US. 😀

 

[Playmakur42]

Maybe I need to stop hanging out in here and just let the ignorance take hold.

Maybe you need to train a few JPH jr's to fight the good fight against cluelessness while you're busy learning how to surgerize.

 

[Dr JPH]

Maybe you need to train a few JPH jr's to fight the good fight against cluelessness while you're busy learning how to surgerize.

Good idea. Hmmmm

 

[RockfordWF]

I know plenty of people who were US grads and had a choice between DO school or the carribbean for an MD. Even with their MD's from the carribbean, they have had a difficult time matching into surgery. I think that the bottom line is that you should try and go to the best school that you can.

My point was that not all MD's are treated equally. MD grads of carribbean schools are treated differently than those from US schools.

I don't count FMG's as MD's. They are a whole different entity entirely.

 

[Dr JPH]

I don't count FMG's as MD's. They are a whole different entity entirely.

Wow. For a medical student with no experience at this you sure to have a lot of rules and conditions.

 

[J1515]

I don't count FMG's as MD's.

 

[dizzle69]

I don't count FMG's as MD's. They are a whole different entity entirely.

Then what are they? 😕

 

[Lamborghini1315]

There are good and bad doctors in allopathic and osteopathic schools, same is true for FMG's. We should not cheapen medicine by categorizing the differences all the time..some doctors are more clinically adept. End of the day your greatness as a doctor will be judged by your patients and your colleagues. I know your opportunities are limited if you are an FMG..but its not like they read different books and they were dissecting frogs. So as future doctors this whole superiority or doctors from "only harvard" are real is pre-med mentality. Any person who went through medical school and landed a residency knows they have done something beyond your avg. joe could do. Be proud of our profession..even if we perceive someone "not competent" but have fulfilled all the medical requirements to be a doctor then you cannot argue their status or their career. My suggestion is always worry about yours and let folks from other parts of the world that join our medical community fight through their struggles..we all do this for one common cause is to help someone that is called a "patient" so what different does it make if your colleague is supposedly not as good as you are..it bothers me when people draw distinctions.

 

[RockfordWF]

Wow. For a medical student with no experience at this you sure to have a lot of rules and conditions.

Don't play ignorant here. You are very well aware that this will apply to program directors and residency programs as well.

 

[RockfordWF]

Then what are they? 😕

It is a very well known fact (although some may refute it for an unknown reason) that when it comes to allopathic residencies, an MD > DO > FMG when tied when their application is otherwise exactly the same. This is particularly true for surgery residencies.

In other residencies, such as emergency medicine----you can find some residencies that adhere to this principle, and others that consider MD = DO, but do not even accept FMG's.

There are exceptions to the rule, but if you do your own research instead of relying on SDN, you will find the above to be true.

 

[Dr JPH]

Don't play ignorant here. You are very well aware that this will apply to program directors and residency programs as well.

Im not playing ignorant.

I was on the interview trail.

I applied to programs.

I spoke to program directors.

I went on audition rotations.

I spoke to residents about my chances.

So my comments are coming from personal experience rotating at programs and speaking with the residents and attendings.

Where do YOUR comments come from?

I know you dont want to admit these because you dont like me, but I am ahead of you in the scheme of things. Isnt it possible that I know more than you?

I will take your silence as a yes.

👍

 

[RockfordWF]

Im not playing ignorant.

I was on the interview trail.

I applied to programs.

I spoke to program directors.

I went on audition rotations.

I spoke to residents about my chances.

So my comments are coming from personal experience rotating at programs and speaking with the residents and attendings.

Where do YOUR comments come from?

I know you dont want to admit these because you dont like me, but I am ahead of you in the scheme of things. Isnt it possible that I know more than you?

I will take your silence as a yes.

👍

Based on your comments in other threads, it seems that you may be regionally biased to the north.

Did you speak to residency directors in the south and hear the same thing? If so, they are saying different things now to applicants.....

 

[medhacker]

Based on your comments in other threads, it seems that you may be regionally biased to the north.

Did you speak to residency directors in the south and hear the same thing? If so, they are saying different things now to applicants.....

Just how can anyone know what PDs are saying to applicantS? 😕

 

[Dr JPH]

Based on your comments in other threads, it seems that you may be regionally biased to the north.

Did you speak to residency directors in the south and hear the same thing? If so, they are saying different things now to applicants.....

Ahh, good point.

So perhaps we are both generalizing then.

I spoke to people in NY, PA, NJ, CT for the most part...areas of the country where I intended to practice. Also a bit out in Nevada.

So maybe things are a little different in the south...as they have been for hundreds of years, still behind the times. A fact that further justifies my rankings in other threads.

So perhaps that is a big issue in ranking schools as well...why go to a school that is in a geographically depressed area when it comes to the acceptance of osteopathic medicine. Seems like going to a place like that would hinder my education and professional growth and therefore wouldnt be as good a school as one that could expose me to a variety of DO friendly hospitals.

Now I have another basis for my ranking arguments. Thanks bud! 👍

 

[medhacker]

General surgery residencies
Loyola University Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Mount Sinai Medical Center (Preliminary PGY-1)
University of Texas - Houston
West Virginia University
Lehigh Valley Hospital/Penn State Hershey Program
Maricopa Integrated Health System

PRS Fellowships
Cleveland Clinic
Mayo Clinic
Lehigh Valley Hospital
Johns hopkins

Neurosurgery
University of Kansas
LSU-Shreveport
SUNY-Upstate

Urology
John Stroger Hosp. of Cook County

 

[RockfordWF]

Just how can anyone know what PDs are saying to applicantS? 😕

By being a 4th year medical student in the midst of interviews----or by having classmates and close friends in the same situation....

 

[RockfordWF]

Ahh, good point.

So perhaps we are both generalizing then.

I spoke to people in NY, PA, NJ, CT for the most part...areas of the country where I intended to practice. Also a bit out in Nevada.

So maybe things are a little different in the south...as they have been for hundreds of years, still behind the times. A fact that further justifies my rankings in other threads.

So perhaps that is a big issue in ranking schools as well...why go to a school that is in a geographically depressed area when it comes to the acceptance of osteopathic medicine. Seems like going to a place like that would hinder my education and professional growth and therefore wouldnt be as good a school as one that could expose me to a variety of DO friendly hospitals.

Now I have another basis for my ranking arguments. Thanks bud! 👍

Why practice medicine as a DO in the south?

DEMAND.

There are so many medical schools in such a small area in the north----residencies are much more difficult to get into, as are jobs.

In the South, The cost of living is much lower for physicians, yet they are paid the highest in all of the country. There is such a shortage of physicians in the south, so the opportunities abound.

As far as acceptance, I have not found any issues of discrimination in my limited experience, nor do I care. In fact, most allopathic residencies in any specialty are mixed. This is because of the lack of osteopathic residencies, which is actually a benefit.

 

[Dr JPH]

There are so many medical schools in such a small area in the north----residencies are much more difficult to get into, as are jobs.



As far as acceptance, I have not found any issues of discrimination in my limited experience, nor do I care. In fact, most allopathic residencies in any specialty are mixed. This is because of the lack of osteopathic residencies, which is actually a benefit.

Wait, wait, wait.

Arent you the one arguing that there is all this bias from PDs towards DOs?

Methinks you just contradicted your own argument.

So which is it? Come clean now and tell us the truth.

 

[medhacker]

By being a 4th year medical student in the midst of interviews----or by having classmates and close friends in the same situation....

hardly a statistical sample, no?