D.O.s and surgery..

[PowerDoc]

I think I want to do surgery. Will being a DO hurt my chances??

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[endocardium]

Oh my God. Not another one of these threads. Please for teh love of AT Still, do a search.

 

[pamolive]

LOL, no it won't. Just look at KCOM's match list. Plently of DOs match into general surgery residencies. You will have to do really well on your COMLEX and USMLE though, and get some killer recs. But, as long as you're a good doctor/med student you'll be fine.

 

[PowerDoc]

That's what I thought. Just wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to be at a disadvantage. Plus I know several people at my ungrad who are worried about this. So my post is for them too.

 

[MaximusD]

I think I want to do surgery. Will being a DO hurt my chances??

Yeah. No DO surgeons out there... nope.

ok ok i won't be a jerk. TCOM has a great program... one of the best in the country. Take the opportunity there to do some research and get your name on some publications. Do well in your classes and in your surgical rotations. Get some good letters of rec and kill the boards. You'll be in like flint.

 

[PowerDoc]

Yeah. No DO surgeons out there... nope.

ok ok i won't be a jerk. TCOM has a great program... one of the best in the country. Take the opportunity there to do some research and get your name on some publications. Do well in your classes and in your surgical rotations. Get some good letters of rec and kill the boards. You'll be in like flint.

Thank you. Some positive responses are what I was looking for.

 

[RySerr21]

That's what I thought. Just wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to be at a disadvantage. Plus I know several people at my ungrad who are worried about this. So my post is for them too.

orthopedics or general or what? if you want to go to an MD residency then the answer is yes. if you just want to go to DO then thats different. i'm not sure about the stats and the number of DO surgery applicants to people that match to DO surgery residencies compared with the # of MD applicants and the # that match to MD residencies.

 

[J1515]

orthopedics or general or what? if you want to go to an MD residency then the answer is yes. if you just want to go to DO then thats different.

What's the difference between the two residency types?

 

[pamolive]

Generally MD residencies are more competative for DOs. But, lots of FMGs match into MD gen surgery residencies, and it's even more competative for them than for DOs. Seriously, you'll be fine. As long as you don't want to go into Derm, GI, or Cads you'll be fine as a DO. If you do want to do one of the 3 I mentioned, you'll need to be pretty much perfect, and published multiple times in those fields. I think you really shouldn't worry about it. Just focus on doing the best you can. Try to get all As and do really well on the boards. If you have time, get in some research and try to get published. Then, see where you end up.

 

[RySerr21]

Generally MD residencies are more competative for DOs. But, lots of FMGs match into MD gen surgery residencies, and it's even more competative for them than for DOs. Seriously, you'll be fine. As long as you don't want to go into Derm, GI, or Cads you'll be fine as a DO. If you do want to do one of the 3 I mentioned, you'll need to be pretty much perfect, and published multiple times in those fields. I think you really shouldn't worry about it. Just focus on doing the best you can. Try to get all As and do really well on the boards. If you have time, get in some research and try to get published. Then, see where you end up.

what about ortho? there arent exactly spots overflowing for DO residencies and DOs for sure get no love on the MD side. it was quoted, and referenced, that out of some 614 spots for MD ortho residencies, only 2 were filled by a DO

 

[singinfifi]

what about ortho? there arent exactly spots overflowing for DO residencies and DOs for sure get no love on the MD side. it was quoted, and referenced, that out of some 614 spots for MD ortho residencies, only 2 were filled by a DO

Well...Um...since there are 3 on this page (from the first DO school match list that I searched b/c it was the one I had open at the time since I'm interviewing there next week)...

http://www.nova.edu/~ltokayer/INTRES04 WebPage3.html

I'm willing to bet that that "quoted and referenced" figure is ...um...off.

 

[RySerr21]

Well...Um...since there are 3 on this page (from the first DO school match list that I searched b/c it was the one I had open at the time since I'm interviewing there next week)...

http://www.nova.edu/~ltokayer/INTRES04%20WebPage3.html

I'm willing to bet that that "quoted and referenced" figure is ...um...off.

hey smart ***. those are all osteopathic residencies. nice try.

if you search this list of the DO residencies, you will find Botsford, Henry Ford, and UMDNJS

http://www.aoao.org/aoao/Residencies/Residencies.pdf

needless to say your statement is...um...off.

 

[RySerr21]

What's the difference between the two residency types?

here is a thread that might be useful. some people had some interesting stuff to say.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=482716

 

[pamolive]

You can't expect to be competative for all MD residencies as a DO. I mean, no offense to the OP, but this is a stupid question. If you want to go DO you have to have completely accepted the fact that you may not get an MD residency. You're gonna be a DO with lots of Osteopathic residency options, and if that's not good enough for you then you should take some time off to improve your app and get into an MD school.

 

[medhacker]

And what part of being a pre-med allows some of you to have certainty on this subject?

isn't it amazing how people who need to worry about being accepted to med school first pretend to know the details of getting a residency for a DO?

Do a search people, DOs can match into MD residencies just fine [and in fact they do every year] if they present themselves as equal applicants when compared with MD applicants. Period, end of story.

 

[J1515]

here is a thread that might be useful. some people had some interesting stuff to say.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=482716

I already know the answer. I was asking your opinion since as a pre-med you seem to feel like you are qualified to hand out advice as if you have first hand experience.

There are 30 or so osteopathic ortho residencies. DOs have no problems matching into those lol.

 

[medhacker]

I already know the answer. I was asking your opinion since as a pre-med you seem to feel like you are qualified to hand out advice as if you have first hand experience.

There are 30 or so osteopathic ortho residencies. DOs have no problems matching into those lol.

Besides that thread proves not that DOs can't match well at MD programs

 

[MossPoh]

Why can't people use the search function more? It is standard every single web forum, yet is never used. Narf!

 

[jp104]

Threads like these make me miss JPH.

 

[RySerr21]

I already know the answer. I was asking your opinion since as a pre-med you seem to feel like you are qualified to hand out advice as if you have first hand experience.

There are 30 or so osteopathic ortho residencies. DOs have no problems matching into those lol.

by far the most irritating thing about SDN is the amount of people that complain about getting advice from a pre med......"how do dare you give this person advice, you are only a premed." YOU ARE ON A PREMED FORUM. no **** 95% of the advice you get is going to come from a pre med.

its like being 5'4 100 lbs, walking into a big and tall store and then complaining about them not having clothes that fit you..... you just sound stupid.

i realize there are 30 osteopathic programs but we were talking about MD residencies. the quality of the DO ortho residencies is heavily debated as well. this is not a declaration taht all DO ortho residencies are poor. I shadowed a DO orthopod all of last summer. he was a great physician and surgeon and i believe he went to a DO residency in ohio. but even he reccommended that if i have the opportunity to go MD and if not MD then at least go to an MD residency.

as you so enthusiastically pointed out, i am a pre med. that does not legitamize shooting down everything i say. no one here will have first hand experience. but i do talk to people..doctors....all the time. especialy about orthopedics b/c that is what i want to do so I am constantly talking to people have that have gone through the system and tell me what it is like from both an MD and a DO persepctive. over the summer i had numerous conversations with the orthopedic surgeon i was shadowing. the previous two years before that when i was working with an MD orthopod who is now a residnecy director at USF we talked all the time about orthopedics and the difficulties of getting intot he field. i'm not just talking out of my ***. part of gaining knowledge is being able to change your previous beliefs. i've slowly done that. if you want to get into an MD residency for orthopedic surgery, going to a DO schools is not a wise choice.

as far as DOs not having trouble matching into DO residencies, that is true if you just comparing to competitiong with MDs. but doesn anybody know the numbers for how many peope attempting to match DO orthopedics don't actually match? it might be interesting to gauge how "difficult" it is cuz that is something that i do not know.

 

[pamolive]

if you want to get into an MD residency for orthopedic surgery, going to a DO schools is not a wise choice.

That's probably the best advice in this thread. If its what you really want, don't sell yourself short. Just take some extra time and get into an MD program.

 

[sexyman]

ryserr21 are you applying for the class of 2012 or 2013? Do you plan on applying DO? just curious.

 

[VALSALVA]

Recent match trends are as follows:

DO's who want to match into DO surgery need only be average or a bit above average to do so. But beware...not all gen. surg programs are created equal.

DO's who want to match into MD surgery must be better than their MD brothers and sisters. Plan on taking the USMLE and doing better than most MD applicants. Fortunately for wanna-be surgeons, general surgery isn't attracting as many highly qualified applicants as it used to - mostly for lifestyle and monetary reasons. MD programs tend to be more uniform in terms of quality and opportunities...with some exceptions of course.

 

[jp104]

Personally the only stupidity I see here is making this yet another orthopaedics discussion when the OP was asking about surgery. But hey, what do I know, I'm not a pre-med.

OP: Can DOs match well into surgery
...Few people answer question
Ryserr: Only 2 DOs matched into MD Ortho...oh noes!

by far the most irritating thing about SDN is the amount of people that complain about getting advice from a pre med......"how do dare you give this person advice, you are only a premed." YOU ARE ON A PREMED FORUM. no **** 95% of the advice you get is going to come from a pre med.

its like being 5'4 100 lbs, walking into a big and tall store and then complaining about them not having clothes that fit you..... you just sound stupid.

i realize there are 30 osteopathic programs but we were talking about MD residencies. the quality of the DO ortho residencies is heavily debated as well. this is not a declaration taht all DO ortho residencies are poor. I shadowed a DO orthopod all of last summer. he was a great physician and surgeon and i believe he went to a DO residency in ohio. but even he reccommended that if i have the opportunity to go MD and if not MD then at least go to an MD residency.

as you so enthusiastically pointed out, i am a pre med. that does not legitamize shooting down everything i say. no one here will have first hand experience. but i do talk to people..doctors....all the time. especialy about orthopedics b/c that is what i want to do so I am constantly talking to people have that have gone through the system and tell me what it is like from both an MD and a DO persepctive. over the summer i had numerous conversations with the orthopedic surgeon i was shadowing. the previous two years before that when i was working with an MD orthopod who is now a residnecy director at USF we talked all the time about orthopedics and the difficulties of getting intot he field. i'm not just talking out of my ***. part of gaining knowledge is being able to change your previous beliefs. i've slowly done that. if you want to get into an MD residency for orthopedic surgery, going to a DO schools is not a wise choice.

as far as DOs not having trouble matching into DO residencies, that is true if you just comparing to competitiong with MDs. but doesn anybody know the numbers for how many peope attempting to match DO orthopedics don't actually match? it might be interesting to gauge how "difficult" it is cuz that is something that i do not know.

 

[sexyman]

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/best-hospitals/search.php?spec=ihqorth

There is a DO PGY-2 at the Cleveland Clinic (ranked 4th)

http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/ortho/body.cfm?id=243

 

[sexyman]

ha good point jp104- it was pulled off so well I didn't even notice.

 

[lacesoutdan]

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/best-hospitals/search.php?spec=ihqorth

There is a DO PGY-2 at the Cleveland Clinic (ranked 4th)

http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/ortho/body.cfm?id=243

And 31 MDs.

 

[cuddlepuppy]

I agree. If you have your heart set on an MD orthopedic residency, going the DO route is not the ideal situation. If you want ortho in general, getting into a DO ortho program might be a little easier than an MD student getting into an MD ortho program. Nonetheless, if you have your heart set on DO for the training, an MD ortho spot is possible as long as you work hard. It happens every year, and maybe more and more each year...at least more and more get interviews.

 

[medhacker]

by far the most irritating thing about SDN is the amount of people that complain about getting advice from a pre med......"how do dare you give this person advice, you are only a premed." YOU ARE ON A PREMED FORUM. no **** 95% of the advice you get is going to come from a pre med.

More irritating than premeds pretending to know about residencies when they have yet to be accepted to med school? doubtful

its like being 5'4 100 lbs, walking into a big and tall store and then complaining about them not having clothes that fit you..... you just sound stupid.

i realize there are 30 osteopathic programs but we were talking about MD residencies. the quality of the DO ortho residencies is heavily debated as well.

Who are they debated by?

this is not a declaration taht all DO ortho residencies are poor. I shadowed a DO orthopod all of last summer. he was a great physician and surgeon and i believe he went to a DO residency in ohio. but even he reccommended that if i have the opportunity to go MD and if not MD then at least go to an MD residency.

Anecdotal

as you so enthusiastically pointed out, i am a pre med. that does not legitamize shooting down everything i say.

Only the things you know nothing about.

no one here will have first hand experience.

Plenty of residents, doctors, medical students around SDN

but i do talk to people..doctors....all the time. especialy about orthopedics b/c that is what i want to do so I am constantly talking to people have that have gone through the system and tell me what it is like from both an MD and a DO persepctive. over the summer i had numerous conversations with the orthopedic surgeon i was shadowing. the previous two years before that when i was working with an MD orthopod who is now a residnecy director at USF we talked all the time about orthopedics and the difficulties of getting intot he field. i'm not just talking out of my ***. part of gaining knowledge is being able to change your previous beliefs. i've slowly done that. if you want to get into an MD residency for orthopedic surgery, going to a DO schools is not a wise choice.

Again, Anecdotal premed speculation

 

[JaggerPlate]

by far the most irritating thing about SDN is the amount of people that complain about getting advice from a pre med......"how do dare you give this person advice, you are only a premed." YOU ARE ON A PREMED FORUM. no **** 95% of the advice you get is going to come from a pre med.

its like being 5'4 100 lbs, walking into a big and tall store and then complaining about them not having clothes that fit you..... you just sound stupid.

i realize there are 30 osteopathic programs but we were talking about MD residencies. the quality of the DO ortho residencies is heavily debated as well. this is not a declaration taht all DO ortho residencies are poor. I shadowed a DO orthopod all of last summer. he was a great physician and surgeon and i believe he went to a DO residency in ohio. but even he reccommended that if i have the opportunity to go MD and if not MD then at least go to an MD residency.

as you so enthusiastically pointed out, i am a pre med. that does not legitamize shooting down everything i say. no one here will have first hand experience. but i do talk to people..doctors....all the time. especialy about orthopedics b/c that is what i want to do so I am constantly talking to people have that have gone through the system and tell me what it is like from both an MD and a DO persepctive. over the summer i had numerous conversations with the orthopedic surgeon i was shadowing. the previous two years before that when i was working with an MD orthopod who is now a residnecy director at USF we talked all the time about orthopedics and the difficulties of getting intot he field. i'm not just talking out of my ***. part of gaining knowledge is being able to change your previous beliefs. i've slowly done that. if you want to get into an MD residency for orthopedic surgery, going to a DO schools is not a wise choice.

as far as DOs not having trouble matching into DO residencies, that is true if you just comparing to competitiong with MDs. but doesn anybody know the numbers for how many peope attempting to match DO orthopedics don't actually match? it might be interesting to gauge how "difficult" it is cuz that is something that i do not know.

Chill man ... you've been a member here for a little over a month, I don't think its quite time to be so rash (if you want to stick around). I also believe there was a thread about DOs in ortho a few weeks ago where you were all set on being a DO ortho and then a few select opinions of people on internet forums convinced you that DO ortho residencies suck, you have to go MD to match into MD etc etc. Just relax.

 

[gasapple]

i'm not just talking out of my ***.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzdII_N_b2Y[/YOUTUBE]

 

[MaximusD]

Threads like these make me miss JPH.

Yeah seriously, screw the moderator that banned him.

 

[J1515]

i realize there are 30 osteopathic programs but we were talking about MD residencies.

Who is talking about MD residencies? The OP asked if "will being a DO hurt his chances at a surgery residency". The answer flat out is no. You chimed in with your advice in all your experience as a pre-med about MD vs DO residencies, ortho vs. general.

the quality of the DO ortho residencies is heavily debated as well.

If it is debated, how about we leave the debates to medical students who have rotated at those places or residents that are currently completing their residency, not someone who hasn't even been accepted to medical school yet.

I shadowed a DO orthopod all of last summer..... but i do talk to people..doctors....all the time.... I am constantly talking to people... over the summer i had numerous conversations with the orthopedic surgeon.... an MD orthopod who is now a residnecy director at USF we talked all the time about orthopedics ....

I love this. As per my sig line, by far my most favorite thing pre-meds say.

So you've shadowed and spoken to 4 doctors and that makes you qualified to advise other pre-meds? 6 doctors? 8 doctors? 10 doctors? When you get to your rotations and residency and actually worked with hundreds of doctors you will see that as a pre-med you actually were talking out of your ***.

no one here will have first hand experience.

How about medical students who have rotated at these hospitals with osteopathic residency programs, or actually are residents at them? That experienced enough for you?

if you want to get into an MD residency for orthopedic surgery, going to a DO schools is not a wise choice.

What if the OP is deciding between Meharry and NYCOM? What would you advise them to do based on your infinite wisdom of the residency matching process and all the people you've spoken to?

as far as DOs not having trouble matching into DO residencies, that is true if you just comparing to competitiong with MDs. but doesn anybody know the numbers for how many peope attempting to match DO orthopedics don't actually match? it might be interesting to gauge how "difficult" it is cuz that is something that i do not know.

Correct, we don't know, so it's probably not something you should be commenting on, eh? But just to throw out some rough numbers, there are about 155 allopathic ortho programs, about 30 osteopathic ortho programs. DOs make up something like 5 - 15% of physicians. On top of that, I would be willing to bet you (based solely on my class of 300 and the two classes below us at NYCOM, but not an official tally of course) that there are far fewer of us DOs interested in orthopedics, dermatology, radiology, and the other super competitive residencies that make pre-meds salivate. Right now emergency medicine seems to be the big thing with graduating DOs.

 

[J1515]

Threads like these make me miss JPH.

Unfortunately as a resident with experience, he hurt too many pre-meds' feelings because he knew more than them.

 

[MossPoh]

Chill man ... you've been a member here for a little over a month, I don't think its quite time to be so rash (if you want to stick around). I also believe there was a thread about DOs in ortho a few weeks ago where you were all set on being a DO ortho and then a few select opinions of people on internet forums convinced you that DO ortho residencies suck, you have to go MD to match into MD etc etc. Just relax.

You have to be here for at least a year before you become disgruntled and hateful.

If in another forum, I tend to put the notice that I'm a premed so my advice won't be as heavily weighted. That being said, in some fields being premed doesn't mean you have to be a complete idiot. I'm sorry, but I feel I have reasonable expertise to discuss PACS system as well as usability and eye tracking with imaging studies...but that is because of my research. One can have a B.S., B.A., mfa, phd, jd, mba, mph, psyD and still be considered a "premed". Some of the "ignorant" premeds do know what they are talking about. Anyway, I'm just tired of recurring themes. One reason I've been spending more time in the lounge as well as acoustic guitar forums rather than pre-osteo and pre-allo forums.

 

[JaggerPlate]

You have to be here for at least a year before you become disgruntled and hateful.

If in another forum, I tend to put the notice that I'm a premed so my advice won't be as heavily weighted. That being said, in some fields being premed doesn't mean you have to be a complete idiot. I'm sorry, but I feel I have reasonable expertise to discuss PACS system as well as usability and eye tracking with imaging studies...but that is because of my research. One can have a B.S., B.A., mfa, phd, jd, mba, mph, psyD and still be considered a "premed". Some of the "ignorant" premeds do know what they are talking about. Anyway, I'm just tired of recurring themes. One reason I've been spending more time in the lounge as well as acoustic guitar forums rather than pre-osteo and pre-allo forums.

Ehhh I don't really get your point, and I am the first one to throw up a pre-med disclaimer whenever I give out advice. However, I do agree that pre meds can/do have knowledge in other areas, but when I see someone in a thread a few weeks all proud to be a DO ortho and then the opinion of a few randos on a internet forum change his mind to the point where he is now the one bagging on the programs ... I feel as if I can comment. I'm not here to say he is a pre med, therefore can't know anything ... what I'm saying is that the forums can be weird at first because you instantly believe everything someone says/change you opinion at the drop of a hat (I know because I have done this). After being around for a while you can read through stuff/make your mind up on your own. That's all I guess ...


I also agree with you about stepping back from the forums, they can get to you after a whilte

 

[JaggerPlate]

You have to be here for at least a year before you become disgruntled and hateful.

If in another forum, I tend to put the notice that I'm a premed so my advice won't be as heavily weighted. That being said, in some fields being premed doesn't mean you have to be a complete idiot. I'm sorry, but I feel I have reasonable expertise to discuss PACS system as well as usability and eye tracking with imaging studies...but that is because of my research. One can have a B.S., B.A., mfa, phd, jd, mba, mph, psyD and still be considered a "premed". Some of the "ignorant" premeds do know what they are talking about. Anyway, I'm just tired of recurring themes. One reason I've been spending more time in the lounge as well as acoustic guitar forums rather than pre-osteo and pre-allo forums.

Okay just re-read your statement and I think only the first line / applied to me and if so ... hahah and I agree!!

 

[TexasTriathlete]

DO's do not believe in sterile technique. Instead, they prefer to use surgical instruments found in nature, such as sharpened sticks and rocks. It promotes the body's ability to heal itself.

 

[sexyman]

True ^ I shadowed a DO orthopedic surgeon once and he told me this. He said if I want to sterilize my equipment the "conventional" way I should go to an allopathic school or atleast an allo residency...

 

[medhacker]

True ^ I shadowed a DO orthopedic surgeon once and he told me this. He said if I want to sterilize my equipment the "conventional" way I should go to an allopathic school or atleast an allo residency...

It doesn't seem like you are talking out of your *** so I believe you...

 

[TexasTriathlete]

You can't say *** on here?

 

[Saregamapadanis]

DO's do not believe in sterile technique. Instead, they prefer to use surgical instruments found in nature, such as sharpened sticks and rocks. It promotes the body's ability to heal itself.

I am planning to call Geico once I get out of school, by that time they will be paying a good rate to act in their commercials, "Its so easy a DO surgeon can do it".

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Maybe we'll get our own sitcom out of it.

 

[Saregamapadanis]

Maybe we'll get our own sitcom out of it.

Ah, the real answer for "why DO" comes out.

 

[UTBME]

I just dug up my interview folder from TCOM and here are surgery matches for the class of '07

Gen Surg - 2 (allo), 2 (osteo)
Orthopedic Surg - 1 (osteo)
Urology - 1 (osteo)
ENT - 1 (osteo)

 

[bobo]

No matter what anyone says, being a DO will definitely make it at least somewhat harder fro you to match at allopathic GS programs.

 

[medhacker]

No matter what everyone says, in this thread everyone gets a chance to somewhat talk out of your ***

 

[VALSALVA]

No matter what anyone says, being a DO will definitely make it at least somewhat harder fro you to match at allopathic GS programs.

This is absolutely correct. As I mentioned above, a DO applicant will have to be better than their fellow MD applicants numbers wise AND in terms of LOR, experience, etc.

 

[medhacker]

This is absolutely correct. As I mentioned above, a DO applicant will have to be better than their fellow MD applicants numbers wise AND in terms of LOR, experience, etc.

Prove it beyond anecdotal claims

I have a number of anecdotes that contradict your claim

So what do you say you "prove" your absolute claims?

 

[BigRedPremed]

Recent match trends are as follows:

DO's who want to match into DO surgery need only be average or a bit above average to do so. But beware...not all gen. surg programs are created equal.

DO's who want to match into MD surgery must be better than their MD brothers and sisters. Plan on taking the USMLE and doing better than most MD applicants. Fortunately for wanna-be surgeons, general surgery isn't attracting as many highly qualified applicants as it used to - mostly for lifestyle and monetary reasons. MD programs tend to be more uniform in terms of quality and opportunities...with some exceptions of course.

Absolutely. It's probably not terribly hard for a DO to match into an allopathic gen surgery residency for the simple fact that less and less US allopathic seniors want to go into gen surgery. Those spots are being filled by FMG's and DO's. When it comes to ultra-competitive specialities like ortho, it'll still be tough for a DO to match into an allopathic residency.