D.O.s and surgery..

[medhacker]

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[Bull's eye]

I agree. If you have your heart set on an MD orthopedic residency, going the DO route is not the ideal situation. If you want ortho in general, getting into a DO ortho program might be a little easier than an MD student getting into an MD ortho program. Nonetheless, if you have your heart set on DO for the training, an MD ortho spot is possible as long as you work hard. It happens every year, and maybe more and more each year...at least more and more get interviews.

This is true. However, the numbers for DO's going into Allo MD ortho is a little off because #1 the DO match is earlier, which kicks you out of the ACGME match and #2 DO programs cherry pick the best candidates by letting them know where they stand. I know because I've been there. 12 MD interviews and was told in the interview at a DO program that the spot was mine. So, I cancelled my interviews and went with the sure thing. My story is not a one of a kind thing BTW.

 

[Gut Shot]

Who is talking about MD residencies? The OP asked if "will being a DO hurt his chances at a surgery residency". The answer flat out is no.

Nah, the answer is a flat out "maybe." Thus far no one can determine the difficulty of landing a good osteopathic surgical residency.

 

[Porco Rosso]

not to be rude, maybe OP and others should do thorough research before applying to a DO school

 

[MaximusD]

No matter what anyone says, being a DO will definitely make it at least somewhat harder fro you to match at allopathic GS programs.

based on what? i agree with medhacker on this one.

 

[Gut Shot]

based on what?

One snapshot of the 2007 allopathic match data:

Applicants in the Matching Program
% U.S. Seniors Matched: 93.4
% Osteopaths Matched: 68.8

General Surgery
Number of positions: 1057
Number filled: 1055 (99.81%)
U.S. Senior: 826
IMG: 74
U.S. Grad: 68
U.S. IMG: 56
Osteo: 30
Canadian: 1
5th Pathway: 0

Matched General Surgery Applicants Who Ranked One Specialty:
U.S. Seniors: 762/846 (90.1%)
Independent Applicants: 189/504 (37.5%)

 

[medhacker]

One snapshot of the 2007 allopathic match data:

Applicants in the Matching Program
% U.S. Seniors Matched: 93.4
% Osteopaths Matched: 68.8

General Surgery
Number of positions: 1057
Number filled: 1055 (99.81%)
U.S. Senior: 826
IMG: 74
U.S. Grad: 68
U.S. IMG: 56
Osteo: 30
Canadian: 1
5th Pathway: 0

Matched General Surgery Applicants Who Ranked One Specialty:
U.S. Seniors: 762/846 (90.1%)
Independent Applicants: 189/504 (37.5%)

That's not conclusive data. That is by no means data to base an alleged discrimination against DOs on. That data does not take into account the "top students" who also participate on the DO match and once they match they are withdrawn from the MD match. You have no means to know the caliber of the DO students in that match data, for all practical purposes those numbers could be highly made of those students who were not desirable in DO surgery programs and had to opt for the later MD match. Neither do we know if these DO students did the same things MD students do, so that they could be considered on par with them.


BTW even they did not do so bad, that is with a higher % than IMGs, Canadian graduates and even U.S. physicians, no easy feat.

 

[PowerDoc]

Thank you all for replying. You all have good points.

However, I think that if I want answers from people who aren't smart *** jerks I'm in the wrong place (with some exceptions of course). Not everyone knows as much about this stuff and therefore they need advice. Probably for every person who does know the answer, there are three who don't. I suppose one person telling me "no problem" and another telling me "no way" confused me. Also, I'm pretty sure that not a one of you were forced to post on this thread. I guess I was wrong to think that this could provide me any real answers.

If I could, I would go back and not even start this.

Thanks again and good bye.

 

[Virgil]

That's not conclusive data. That is by no means data to base an alleged discrimination against DOs on. That data does not take into account the "top students" who also participate on the DO match and once they match they are withdrawn from the MD match. You have no means to know the caliber of the DO students in that match data, for all practical purposes those numbers could be highly made of those students who were not desirable in DO surgery programs and had to opt for the later MD match. Neither do we know if these DO students did the same things MD students do, so that they could be considered on par with them.


BTW even they did not do so bad, that is with a higher % than IMGs, Canadian graduates and even U.S. physicians, no easy feat.

Dude, nobody's "discriminating" against DOs or is downplaying their "caliber." Stop being so defensive.

For people who want to become cardiothoracic surgeons and are thinking of going the DO route, this sticky might interest you:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=5982506&postcount=13

 

[medhacker]

Dude, nobody's "discriminating" against DOs or is downplaying their "caliber." Stop being so defensive.

For people who want to become cardiothoracic surgeons and are thinking of going the DO route, this sticky might interest you:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=5982506&postcount=13

Let me know when you finish waking up so that your comments make a minimum amount of sense.

 

[Virgil]

Let me know when you finish waking up so that your comments make a minimum amount of sense.

Ok?

 

[ScootDoc]

...

 

[Gut Shot]

That's not conclusive data.

Never said it was, but it does not suggest equal treatment, either.

 

[medhacker]

Never said it was, but it does not suggest equal treatment, either.

And you are right my friend

 

[Gut Shot]

And you are right my friend

I reckon that the onus is on the DO establishment to demonstrate that they're post-graduate training opportunities, particularly in competitive fields, are equal to those afforded their allopathic counterparts. The argument that equality exists because DO surgeons/dermatologists/radiation oncologists/etc. exist does not hold water.

 

[medhacker]

I reckon that the onus is on the DO establishment to demonstrate that they're post-graduate training opportunities, particularly in competitive fields, are equal to those afforded their allopathic counterparts. The argument that equality exists because DO surgeons/dermatologists/radiation oncologists/etc. exist does not hold water.

I don't think there's any need for the "DO establishment" to prove claims of DO discrimination are exaggerated. Proving there is no discrimination, in my opinion, is almost as difficult to prove there is (which as you have seen, has truly proven not to hold water).

What we can go by (anecdotes, actual graduates, residents, comments from PDs in allopathic programs, etc etc) are enough to state that DO disadvantage in competitive MD fields, based solely on the degree, is not a fact. That is basically all we can argue for. Of course, as you may understand, since there is as equal quality [or better] evidence suggesting there is no such disadvantage for DOs, I think the "DO establishment" deserves to be "innocent until proven guilty".

The onus is, thus, not on the "DO establishment" but on anyone who claims that such a disadvantage is a "fact" when it clearly isn't.

In the mean time, DOs continue to enter and graduate from competitive MD programs, and to those who have ears to hear, it will become clear, what must a DO student do in order to be seen as an equal applicant to the eyes of a competitive allopathic program PD.

 

[ArcherM2]

Well I know I haven't posted in here well, since I was a pre-med, but being a DO student who wants to go into general surgery I figure I can give some advice and I'll try and keep the controversy to a minimum.

1. If you want to be a surgeon (general or ortho) and you get into medical school (DO or MD) you should not have a problem getting a spot. Of course this assumes that you have done at least half decent on Step 1/2, have good to great clinical grades and good letters.

2. There is a graduated, step-wise way to look at general surgery or any residency program. If you are mediocre DO student then chances of matching into a DO residency are better than matching into an MD program. If you are a stellar DO student you should have NO problem matching into an osteopathic program. If you are stellar MD student you should have NO problem matching into general surgery and your chances of matching into a top tier surgical program are much better. If you are a stellar DO student you have a good chance of matching into an allopathic general surgery program but it will be near-impossible to match into the top-tier (Mass General, Pitt, etc...). This brings me to my next point...

3. Not all surgical programs are created equal (as someone has mentioned above). There are only a few surgical programs in the DO community that can rival academic allopathic programs. On the whole, most osteopathic programs are equal to, if not better than, the community-based allopathic programs. For both of these, you have to consider whether or not you want to pursue fellowships. In order to secure a highly competitive fellowships it is advisable to go to a competitive allopathic program (easier if you're an MD student) where you can network and have the opportunity to do important clinical research.

4. Because this is a pre-med forum I think I would be remiss not to mention an observation I have made over the past three-years of my medical education - From my experience, osteopathic schools lack clinical departments that support their students in their pursuit of residency. If you talk to residents or program directors or even read books regarding applying to residencies, most say it is imperative to talk to your school's "department of surgery." At my school, and I assume for the other osteopathic schools that do not have a single, home hospital, there is no way to actively participate with the department or program directors. I think this is one of my biggest qualms with osteopathic medical education. For the past year I have bounced from hospital to hospital, only interacting with my school when it comes time to take our shelf exams. Much of our pursuit of residency is based on our own initiative to do well, make connections and get the residency we desire. From my experience with our allopathic counterparts, they can start working with their department of surgery as early as their first-year and have the opportunity to form relationships (read: letters of recommendation, phone calls to PDs, etc...) throughout their four-years.

5. Research. Has anyone seen the JAOA (Journal of the American Osteopathic Association) lately? There is minimal basic science let alone clinical research being performed at our osteopathic colleges. For students that want to pursue competitive residency positions, research is essential, both for DO and MD programs. It is exceedingly difficult to find opportunities to do research because of the paucity of it being done at our schools. **On a related note, I feel like this is the one point where the allopathic community has us cornered. We do very little to advance the field of medicine as far as research is concerned. Sure, we put out excellent clinicians and in the end that is what we all (DO/MD) strive to be, but if we continue to reap the benefits and advances of allopathic medicine, how can we be recognized as advancing the field?

Okay, well this is a huge rant. And I tend to do this from time to time, but this is way better than studying for my internal medicine shelf.

As for me, am I happy that I chose to go to an osteopathic medical school? Yes, because it has allowed me to pursue exactly what I should be doing with my life - being a physician. Was I upset when I realized during my 2nd-year of school that I was going to have a difficult time securing a competitive residency because of my degree? Of course, but it gave me the drive to rock Step 1, seek out research at a respected institution and to do all I can to overcome this obstacle.

Okay, seriously, I'm almost done...

My last point. If you are a DO student who wants to go into general surgery be prepared to work hard. Comparatively, there are fewer osteopathic programs than allopathic which makes these positions more competitive (duh!) and if you want to go into an allopathic program you will have to be a stellar DO student. Our allopathic counterparts do not necessarily have to work all that hard to secure a general surgery position (for reasons stated above) unless they want to go to a "big" program. (Last statement is based on the following personal experience: I know of two GS residents at a very respectable academic allopathic institution that scored around average on the USMLE. I am also aware that this institution has not had a resident from a DO school in a long time (if ever).)

Well I hope this helps someone out there. I also hope I didn't offend anyone. But if I did, well, sorry.

 

[DrMidlife]

Well I know I haven't posted in here well, since I was a pre-med, but being a DO student who wants to go into general surgery I figure I can give some advice and I'll try and keep the controversy to a minimum. ....

What a lovely and welcome break this was from the tiresome and pointless dick-waving on this thread. Thank you for taking the time.

 

[medhacker]

Well I know I haven't posted in here well, since I was a pre-med, but being a DO student who wants to go into general surgery I figure I can give some advice and I'll try and keep the controversy to a minimum.

1. If you want to be a surgeon (general or ortho) and you get into medical school (DO or MD) you should not have a problem getting a spot. Of course this assumes that you have done at least half decent on Step 1/2, have good to great clinical grades and good letters.

True

2. There is a graduated, step-wise way to look at general surgery or any residency program. If you are mediocre DO student then chances of matching into a DO residency are better than matching into an MD program. If you are a stellar DO student you should have NO problem matching into an osteopathic program. If you are stellar MD student you should have NO problem matching into general surgery and your chances of matching into a top tier surgical program are much better. If you are a stellar DO student you have a good chance of matching into an allopathic general surgery program but it will be near-impossible to match into the top-tier (Mass General, Pitt, etc...). This brings me to my next point...

In my experience, not because of the DO degree, but because of what these programs traditionally look for. MD students not from "top schools" (or as a PD from hopkins put it = "World reknown medical institutions) would have an equal hard time in these programs - so the difficulty for a DO is not for the degree per se.

3. Not all surgical programs are created equal (as someone has mentioned above). There are only a few surgical programs in the DO community that can rival academic allopathic programs. On the whole, most osteopathic programs are equal to, if not better than, the community-based allopathic programs. For both of these, you have to consider whether or not you want to pursue fellowships. In order to secure a highly competitive fellowships it is advisable to go to a competitive allopathic program (easier if you're an MD student) where you can network and have the opportunity to do important clinical research.

True.

4. Because this is a pre-med forum I think I would be remiss not to mention an observation I have made over the past three-years of my medical education - From my experience, osteopathic schools lack clinical departments that support their students in their pursuit of residency. If you talk to residents or program directors or even read books regarding applying to residencies, most say it is imperative to talk to your school's "department of surgery." At my school, and I assume for the other osteopathic schools that do not have a single, home hospital, there is no way to actively participate with the department or program directors. I think this is one of my biggest qualms with osteopathic medical education. For the past year I have bounced from hospital to hospital, only interacting with my school when it comes time to take our shelf exams. Much of our pursuit of residency is based on our own initiative to do well, make connections and get the residency we desire. From my experience with our allopathic counterparts, they can start working with their department of surgery as early as their first-year and have the opportunity to form relationships (read: letters of recommendation, phone calls to PDs, etc...) throughout their four-years.

This is not the case with all DO schools, but otherwise it is true.

5. Research. Has anyone seen the JAOA (Journal of the American Osteopathic Association) lately? There is minimal basic science let alone clinical research being performed at our osteopathic colleges. For students that want to pursue competitive residency positions, research is essential, both for DO and MD programs. It is exceedingly difficult to find opportunities to do research because of the paucity of it being done at our schools. **On a related note, I feel like this is the one point where the allopathic community has us cornered. We do very little to advance the field of medicine as far as research is concerned. Sure, we put out excellent clinicians and in the end that is what we all (DO/MD) strive to be, but if we continue to reap the benefits and advances of allopathic medicine, how can we be recognized as advancing the field?

True

My last point. If you are a DO student who wants to go into general surgery be prepared to work hard. Comparatively, there are fewer osteopathic programs than allopathic which makes these positions more competitive (duh!) and if you want to go into an allopathic program you will have to be a stellar DO student. Our allopathic counterparts do not necessarily have to work all that hard to secure a general surgery position (for reasons stated above) unless they want to go to a "big" program. (Last statement is based on the following personal experience: I know of two GS residents at a very respectable academic allopathic institution that scored around average on the USMLE. I am also aware that this institution has not had a resident from a DO school in a long time (if ever).)

Well I hope this helps someone out there. I also hope I didn't offend anyone. But if I did, well, sorry.

Work harder to get the exposure, connections, research that MD students come about easier, that is true. However, from what I have learned, if a DO student presents her/his package with all these things, plus the board scores, clinicals, etc, the degree letters will not be a disadvantage.

Nice post

 

[J1515]

4. Because this is a pre-med forum I think I would be remiss not to mention an observation I have made over the past three-years of my medical education - From my experience, osteopathic schools lack clinical departments that support their students in their pursuit of residency.

How many osteopathic schools have you attended? I can tell you exactly the opposite occured at my school but this is just anecdotal evidence.

At my school, and I assume for the other osteopathic schools that do not have a single, home hospital, there is no way to actively participate with the department or program directors.

Don't assume. At NYCOM you can do all of your third year rotations at a single hospital. UMDNJ has its own affiliated hospital system as well.

5. Research. Has anyone seen the JAOA (Journal of the American Osteopathic Association) lately? There is minimal basic science let alone clinical research being performed at our osteopathic colleges. For students that want to pursue competitive residency positions, research is essential, both for DO and MD programs. It is exceedingly difficult to find opportunities to do research because of the paucity of it being done at our schools.

Plenty of research is being done at our school. In fact many students spend their summer between M1-M2 doing research with the faculty. While I've heard stories about rotation scheduling and research opportunities being scarce at some other DO schools, you can't make a blanket statement based on your experience at one school. Of the schools I interviewed at, WVSOM and NYCOM were like night and day... opposite ends of the spectrum.

Comparatively, there are fewer osteopathic programs than allopathic which makes these positions more competitive (duh!)

There are fewer osteopathic students than there are allopathic students. So that doesn't necessarily make it more competitive.

 

[ArcherM2]

How many osteopathic schools have you attended? I can tell you exactly the opposite occured at my school but this is just anecdotal evidence.

I've gone to one. My school has some research during the first two years mainly in pharmacology and the neurosciences. And I did say minimal, not no research. How many research projects are on-going at your school? How many of them are being published on a regular basis? And how many of them are in fields other than OMT? Honestly, as my post states above, I would love to see more basic science and clinical research being done at the osteopathic schools because I think it would help our case when all of these MD/DO things happen. I think it is imperative that we advance the field of medicine. I would love to see some oncology research or something like it come out of one our schools rather than the role of fibroblast proliferation post-counterstrain or whatever that article was in the JAOA. And as far as clinical departments helping along in your search for residency, maybe it is just my school, but I've received no help whatsoever, but maybe that is because LECOM does not have a surgery program or a department of surgery...

Don't assume. At NYCOM you can do all of your third year rotations at a single hospital. UMDNJ has its own affiliated hospital system as well.

Do the surgical departments of these hospitals participate in your education at all before your third year? If that's true than that's awesome. We have a few lectures during our first two years from surgeons, but we do not have a LECOM Department of Surgery. Sure there is a Hamot Hospital Department of Surgery (Erie, PA) where a good number of LECOM students rotate, but they have very little interaction with students until their surgery rotation during our third year. Even worse, they do not have a surgical residency! The point I was trying to make is that if you are as student who is interested in surgery, it might be advantageous to be involved in a department that participates in your education throughout your 4 years as to really get to form a good relationship with a surgeon, not just the 8 weeks you are on the surgical service. I would think the state associated schools (MSU, UMDNJ, OSU) might have an easier time with this, but even UMDNJ goes to three hospitals.

Plenty of research is being done at our school. In fact many students spend their summer between M1-M2 doing research with the faculty. While I've heard stories about rotation scheduling and research opportunities being scarce at some other DO schools, you can't make a blanket statement based on your experience at one school. Of the schools I interviewed at, WVSOM and NYCOM were like night and day... opposite ends of the spectrum.

I apologize if I made this sound like a blanket statement, but from my interactions with other osteopathic students I have developed a feeling that there is little research being done at our schools outside of OMT. Please refer to my first response for more on the research matter.

There are fewer osteopathic students than there are allopathic students. So that doesn't necessarily make it more competitive.

It's still more competitive than other specialties in the osteopathic field. I think there are 32 programs for 22 (+/- branch campuses). With more and more schools cropping up, I'd say it's pretty competitive.

 

[J1515]

I've gone to one. My school has some research during the first two years mainly in pharmacology and the neurosciences. And I did say minimal, not no research. How many research projects are on-going at your school? How many of them are being published on a regular basis? And how many of them are in fields other than OMT?

The majority of our research IS in the basic sciences (neuroscience, anatomy, immunology), but there is some research with OMT too. Each year the head of the research dept. sends out a list of ongoing projects available for students to participate in during their first summer off. There are plenty of opportunities if you are interested. I personally don't have any interest in research so I can't tell you exact #s on publications, but each year students present at the AOA convention.

Do the surgical departments of these hospitals participate in your education at all before your third year? If that's true than that's awesome. We have a few lectures during our first two years from surgeons, but we do not have a LECOM Department of Surgery.

No, I'm pretty sure NYCOM does not have an official "surgery department." We have a systems based curriculum, so surgeons come in to lecture us for each system throughout the first two years (ie - GI and musculoskeletal - general surgeons, neuro - neurosurgeons, cardio/resp - cardiothoracic surgeons, etc..). I believe we only had a handful of students in our class with an interest in surgery and they got the contact information for the lecturer before/after the lecture.

I apologize if I made this sound like a blanket statement, but from my interactions with other osteopathic students I have developed a feeling that there is little research being done at our schools outside of OMT. Please refer to my first response for more on the research matter.

Schools like NYCOM, PCOM, UMDNJ are much different than WVSOM and KCOM. That's not to say one is better than the other, but your experience with rotations and research will be much different. If a student only gets into one school and wants to be a doctor, then they have no right to complain. But a pre-med who gets into all of the above schools and chooses one, and then whines about it has no one to blame but themselves (I'm not directing this at you specifically). LECOM is a relatively new school in a sort of "out-of-the-way" location. I'd think if you give it some time there will be an expansion of research opportunities in the future but I'm not sure if there is any way to avoid getting shipped around to hospitals due to its location.

It's still more competitive than other specialties in the osteopathic field. I think there are 32 programs for 22 (+/- branch campuses). With more and more schools cropping up, I'd say it's pretty competitive.

I'm not saying it isn't competitive. But you can't look at the 200+ allopathic surgery residency programs and expect there to be anywhere near that amount for the osteopathic profession, given that DOs make up something like 10% of physicians.

 

[Gut Shot]

What we can go by (anecdotes, actual graduates, residents, comments from PDs in allopathic programs, etc etc) are enough to state that DO disadvantage in competitive MD fields, based solely on the degree, is not a fact.

Repeating this will not make it true. One can assemble a group of anecdotes to support any view of reality one wishes. If I had the time, I could wander through my med center and no doubt obtain plenty of anecdotes to the contrary. The fact remains that the 2007 allopathic match rates for allopaths and osteopaths were 94.8% and 68.8%, respectively. That is a significant gap. Earlier you commented on the caliber of osteopathic applicants in said match, which is a valid concern. It should be remembered, however, that to be in the match one has to land interviews. That 31.2% of DO applicants that did not match didn't just wander off the street and into ERAS. They were good enough to be considered, but for whatever reason did not make the cut. Hopefully they fared better in the scramble.

I'm sorry, I wish we were all assessed truly by our merits and not the names or degrees on our diplomas, but that's not how things are right now. To proclaim otherwise is naive.

 

[Gut Shot]

4. Because this is a pre-med forum I think I would be remiss not to mention an observation I have made over the past three-years of my medical education - From my experience, osteopathic schools lack clinical departments that support their students in their pursuit of residency. If you talk to residents or program directors or even read books regarding applying to residencies, most say it is imperative to talk to your school's "department of surgery." At my school, and I assume for the other osteopathic schools that do not have a single, home hospital, there is no way to actively participate with the department or program directors. I think this is one of my biggest qualms with osteopathic medical education. For the past year I have bounced from hospital to hospital, only interacting with my school when it comes time to take our shelf exams. Much of our pursuit of residency is based on our own initiative to do well, make connections and get the residency we desire. From my experience with our allopathic counterparts, they can start working with their department of surgery as early as their first-year and have the opportunity to form relationships (read: letters of recommendation, phone calls to PDs, etc...) throughout their four-years.

Thanks for this, it underscores what may be the biggest shortcoming in osteopathic education these days. It may also explain why schools with more established clinical rotations send more grads into competitive fields. If the AOA wants to truly promote the future of osteopathic medicine, it should be working to promote stable clinical training for med students, and expand solid post-graduate opportunities.

 

[J1515]

That 31.2% of DO applicants that did not match didn't just wander off the street and into ERAS. They were good enough to be considered, but for whatever reason did not make the cut. Hopefully they fared better in the scramble.

Or they were successful in the DO match and had to withdraw from the allopathic match.

 

[DrBowtie]

You would think since their ROL would not be counted, they wouldn't count in that 31.2%

 

[J1515]

You would think since their ROL would not be counted, they wouldn't count in that 31.2%

All that stat said is that 31.2% of osteopathic students who APPLIED for the allopathic match did not match in it.

 

[DrBowtie]

All that stat said is that 31.2% of osteopathic students who APPLIED for the allopathic match did not match in it.

Does it say who registered in the match or actually submitted a ROL?

 

[DrBowtie]

Osteopaths: 2398 Total registered
Withdrew 606 25.3%
No Ranking 140 5.8%

Active Applicants 1652
Matched 1136 68.8 %
Unmatched 516 31.2%

Thus 31.2% unmatched DOES NOT count those withdrawing from the DO match.

 

[J1515]

What is the site you got that off of. I find it hard to believe that the # that withdrew + the "no ranking" # adds up exactly to the unmatched %

 

[DrBowtie]

What is the site you got that off of. I find it hard to believe that the # that withdrew + the "no ranking" # adds up exactly to the unmatched %

The NRMP thing Gutshot linked. Pg. 2.

You are ignoring the numbers before the %s. The data is correct.

 

[Gut Shot]

Or they were successful in the DO match and had to withdraw from the allopathic match.

No, that number reflects active applicants who did not withdraw. Here are the raw numbers (page 5):

Osteopaths: 2,398
Withdrew: 606
No Ranking: 140
Active Applicants: 1,652
Matched: 1,136 (68.8%)
Unmatched: 516 (31.2%)

 

[Gut Shot]

Osteopaths: 2398 Total registered
Withdrew 606 25.3%
No Ranking 140 5.8%

Active Applicants 1652
Matched 1136 68.8 %
Unmatched 516 31.2%

Thus 31.2% unmatched DOES NOT count those withdrawing from the DO match.

Oh hizzle, I need to finish reading the new responses before I post.

Thanks!

 

[J1515]

I stand corrected. I didn't think the number was quite that high.

 

[Gut Shot]

I stand corrected. I didn't think the number was quite that high.

Sort of disturbing, isn't it? Roughly 2,700 osteopathic grads emerge every year, and almost 1,700 of them enter the allopathic match as active (yeah, I know they're not all PGY-1's, I'm content to fudge the numbers a bit).

Given that the osteo match occurs before the allo match, 516/2,700 = 19.1%. That's almost a one in five chance that as a DO you'll end up scrambling or having to find something outside the match.

If I were a DO I'd be royally pissed at the AOA.

 

[BigRedPremed]

So, every year, the number of DO graduates matching into allopathic residencies is roughly equal to the number matching into osteopathic residencies?

 

[J1515]

Sort of disturbing, isn't it? Roughly 2,700 osteopathic grads emerge every year, and almost 1,700 of them enter the allopathic match as active (yeah, I know they're not all PGY-1's, I'm content to fudge the numbers a bit).

Given that the osteo match occurs before the allo match, 516/2,700 = 19.1%. That's almost a one in five chance that as a DO you'll end up scrambling or having to find something outside the match.

If I were a DO I'd be royally pissed at the AOA.

The AOA is what it is. I don't think it's going to change anytime soon. Believe it or not I place a lot of the blame on the DO students and this is why:

Osteo students who didn't withdraw from the MD match either:

1) Didn't match in the DO match
2) Didn't apply for the DO match and put all their eggs in one basket in the allo match.

Now if we look at option #1 and you weren't good enough to match in the DO match, what makes you think you'll match in the allo match? Why didn't they match in either? Perhaps they just weren't competitive enough for their chosen specialty. As much as I think the AOA does things ***-backwards, I can't fault them in this case. Is it the student's fault for choosing a specialty they weren't competitive for? Or is it the school's fault for admitting someone who couldn't cut it? You decide.

Option #2 might not be a terrible idea if you are applying to a fairly non competitive field and have outstanding stats, but again, if you aren't very well qualified you are taking a chance.

There is always the traditional rotating year you can do if you don't match allo and then you can reapply the following year, but I'm sure this isn't what the applicant had in mind.

 

[Gut Shot]

Now if we look at option #1 and you weren't good enough to match in the DO match, what makes you think you'll match in the allo match?

I entered med school at age 27, and most of my illusions about life's "drag" had been dispelled by that point. You may enter MD or DO school single and free-wheeling, but you may not exit it so. Life happens. People get married, they have kids, their spouses get jobs, they buy houses, etc. Don't underestimate geographic preferences/constraints when it comes time to match.

I'd wager this explains at least some of the decisions that osteo grads face. It certainly explained the bulk of my allo colleagues's matching strategy.

 

[Gut Shot]

So, every year, the number of DO graduates matching into allopathic residencies is roughly equal to the number matching into osteopathic residencies?

It looks like more than half enter the allopathic match, and less than half actually match. For more fear:

 

[J1515]

I entered med school at age 27, and most of my illusions about life's "drag" had been dispelled by that point. You may enter MD or DO school single and free-wheeling, but you may not exit it so. Life happens. People get married, they have kids, their spouses get jobs, they buy houses, etc. Don't underestimate geographic preferences/constraints when it comes time to match.

I'd wager this explains at least some of the decisions that osteo grads face. It certainly explained the bulk of my allo colleagues's matching strategy.

I can understand that line of thinking. I entered medical school a year younger than you did and chose osteopathic over allopathic (accepted to both) for precisely the reasons you listed above. . I took both the COMLEX and USMLE and will be applying to both DO and MD residencies in a year to maximize my chances.

But back to the topic, competition is rising for DOs and without bashing any specialties, there are plenty of unfilled FP residencies each year. These will be there to ease the tension. Although it might not be what the graduating student wants, they will become a doctor nonetheless.

 

[Gut Shot]

But back to the topic, competition is rising for DOs and without bashing any specialties, there are plenty of unfilled FP residencies each year. These will be there to ease the tension. Although it might not be what the graduating student wants, they will become a doctor nonetheless.

This is one of the more naive things I've seen on this forum. Being a doctor isn't some generic, interchangeable station. It's not like moving from defensive guard to defensive tackle. If you hate FP, you'll still hate it 30 years down the road.

I realize that as a premed your primary goal is to get into med school. The implicit feeling is that if you can just get into med school everything will be fine. If nothing else, you will be a doctor, and that will be enough.

And then, about two weeks after med school starts, your goals adjust. Being a doctor becomes a given. Now you have to worry about what kind of doctor you will be. And what sort of practice. And where you will do residency. And do you need to start a research project? Oh God, I haven't even started a research project! I'm ******!

 

[PrecordialThump]

It's not like moving from defensive guard to defensive tackle.

There's no such thing as a defensive guard. There is an offensive guard, or a nose guard on defense. You probably don't care, but now you know.

 

[scpod]

There's no such thing as a defensive guard....

In a 6-5 Goal line defense there is.

 

[J1515]

This is one of the more naive things I've seen on this forum. Being a doctor isn't some generic, interchangeable station. It's not like moving from defensive guard to defensive tackle. If you hate FP, you'll still hate it 30 years down the road.

I realize that as a premed your primary goal is to get into med school. The implicit feeling is that if you can just get into med school everything will be fine. If nothing else, you will be a doctor, and that will be enough.

And you my friend are being quite closed minded. First off I'm not a pre-med. Second, many, and I mean many people go through medical school and rotations and still don't know what they want to do with their lives. Just because you personally were interested in one specific specialty and it was clear cut for you doesn't mean that's how it is for everyone. Why do you think there's that ridiculous website that helps students narrow down the best specialties for them? Are you telling me the guy who barely passes his boards and graduates in the lower quarter of his class should only be happy if he gets the surgery residency he wants? If it came down to being a FP or leaving the field of medicine all together I would choose FP every time. People with better qualifications will get the more competitive spots, people in the bottom quarter of their class will get the less competitive spots. That's just the way it works. I entered medical school knowing I wanted to be a doctor because I loved medicine and working with people. I think it's interesting as hell. Sure I'm leaning towards a specific field I have a particular interest in, but if it works out that I'm not competitive enough for that field then so be it - I will still be a physician and get to practice medicine which is what I want to do.

I'm by no means saying that all the rejects should just be filtered off into FP as more DO schools open and the specialties get more competitive. But there ARE positions available for graduating DO students down the road.

 

[PrecordialThump]

In a 6-5 Goal line defense there is.

No, there's 2 noseguards & each fills their respective A gaps, wiseguy. Plus that defense is utterly useless against any type of play action pass and thus rarely used.

 

[MaximusD]

Mr Gut Shot:

The student matching FP that didn't want it at first will be unhappy 30 years from now...? MAYBE.

You clearly overstepped your boundaries on that one. HOW DO YOU KNOW? As a resident, you hardly know how you will feel about your career 30 years from now. Just as the "premed" (he isn't a premed, but for arguments sake..) was outside of his realm of knowledge, you were outside of yours.

Glass houses, man. Other than that, I agree with your argument.

 

[MaximusD]

It looks like more than half enter the allopathic match, and less than half actually match. For more fear:

Why was there a spike in the early 90's? What suddenly changed? Federal loans...? That's a HUGE and extremely fast upward change in that curve.

5 or 6 years of steady decline then... UP. I'm sorry I'm easily impressed, I gues.

 

[Gut Shot]

And you my friend are being quite closed minded. First off I'm not a pre-med.

That part wasn't directed specifically at you. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

If it came down to being a FP or leaving the field of medicine all together I would choose FP every time.

That may be fine for you, but the notion that doctors should be content practicing any available type of medicine, just because it's medicine, is absurd. I can't even believe we're having this discussion.

 

[Gut Shot]

Mr Gut Shot:

The student matching FP that didn't want it at first will be unhappy 30 years from now...? MAYBE.

MAYBE? How about ALMOST CERTAINLY. If you don't like a job, you can often learn to deal with it, but the chances that it will blossom into happiness are slight.

FP is a good example. A month of earaches, sports physicals and diabetes management made me want to shove red hot pokers in my eyes. Another 360 months doesn't sound any better.

 

[Gut Shot]

There's no such thing as a defensive guard. There is an offensive guard, or a nose guard on defense. You probably don't care, but now you know.

Hmmm, I meant offensive guard. My bad (and good catch, BTW).