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RickyScott said:
300+ pubs (and I didn’t know her disease site) is an indication of “neomania” that Taleb and others have cited as a deligitimization of academics. In late 90s, almost none of the most prominent thought leaders in radonc would have anything close to this #. (I haven’t treated a breast cancer in quite a few years)
I am not waisting time looking up her authorship, but the concern is publishing and waisted productivity just to run up numbers.
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actually, it just reflects a bit poorly on you. Especially that you have dug your heels in.it is pretty well known that she does breast cancer work. Just admit it and move on, don’t double down
 
Mandelin Rain said:
As a white guy, I know I'm the victim most of the time. The deck is definitely stacked against me. Let me tell the stories of my oppression.

Note: my sarcasm is not "white guilt", rather an honest appraisal of how the the world operates currently and how it has for the past millennium. The absurdity of snowflake white guys playing the victim is just hilarious.
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It is not playing victim for calling someone else out for playing victim.

And it's absurd that refusing to buy in to the narrative/dogma that demands constant apologizing/atonement for the new "original sin" of being white results in mockery like the above. I.e., if you're white then there's no way you can have struggles in your life and you need to STFU and tolerate racist policies like affirmative action and derision towards your skin color and family's heritage/history.
 
Mandelin Rain said:
FFVTJQNLIJE3VGLFQNSYNHMKDY.jpg

Here's a picture of the graduating class of of the Mississippi School of Medicine. For reference, Mississippi's population is 38% African American.
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Obviously the only possible reason why the class is not exactly 38% black is because of deliberate discrimination in admission policies to preferentially select equally qualified white people. I am sure that if you look at the number of people who applied to their med school, exactly 38% were black.

🙄

These issues are far more deep and complex than just looking at skin color of a graduating class and concluding that admission decisions are racist and the solution is to just simply set a 38% quota for AA admissions and adjust admissions standards however much needed to achieve that quota. That solution helps nobody.
 
Mandelin Rain said:
As a white guy, I know I'm the victim most of the time. The deck is definitely stacked against me. Let me tell the stories of my oppression.

Note: my sarcasm is not "white guilt", rather an honest appraisal of how the the world operates currently and how it has for the past millennium. The absurdity of snowflake white guys playing the victim is just hilarious.
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My wife's family is white, and they are poor. Quite poor. Work-two-jobs-including-one-at-Wal-Mart-just-to-put-food-on-the-table-poor. They lost their well-paying manufacturing jobs after their factories in the Midwest shut down and moved to Mexico.

Somehow I don't think they would share your view that what they've been experiencing in their lives has been "hilarious."
 
Amazingly, there are poor people of all races and ethnicities. At least if you're white and poor you don't ALSO have to deal with overt and/or systemic racism.

Question: Is it the Mexicans' fault the jobs moved there, or is it the white guy owner who wanted to maximize profits for white guy shareholders protected by policies passed by white guy congressmen and approved by white guy presidents?

Anger is so misplaced.
 
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Where I went to school (urban, poor district), there were no after school programs outside of a limited number of sports. Numerous non-profits came in with after school, lunchtime, and field trip programs for science, technology, business, etc. These programs were only for women or minorities, and had this in their names. I had no exposure to role models or white collar careers as a grade schooler in part for this reason, despite my interest.

When I got to college I was still very poor with no family support. I worked full-time on top of college for the first few years. I really struggled to find housing. I ended up sleeping on couches for years before finding a $200/mo efficiency. I was turned down to be an RA (free housing) because I lacked diversity. I didn't even know what diversity was at that point of my life (despite being a high school drop out growing up in a mostly minority community), and could not speak that language.

Fast forward into the future, and I have heard numerous times from chairs, directors, and other bosses how proud they are to be hiring X person or Y person because they are a woman or minority or how they are only looking to hire a woman or minority for a position. In fact, I recently was rumored to have not been offered a job I applied to because "they just had too many white guys and there was pressure for diverse hiring"

So is there really no systemic racism? A lot of my white friends and family members are or have been in jail. My cousin just got out of a 10 year sentence.

Ok, now everyone feel free to bash me. I usually don't talk about this stuff because I just don't fit the narrative.
 
Mandelin Rain said:
Amazingly, there are poor people of all races and ethnicities. At least if you're white and poor you don't ALSO have to deal with overt and/or systemic racism.
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This sentiment neglects the fact that in absolute numbers, there are more poor whites (non hispanic whites are largest proportion of the poor). And while we are on the subject, 60% of bankruptcies are caused by medical debts. again, i dont have a particular intellectual interest in this subject, but would like to know more about what action radiation oncology should take: should we reduce the number of caucasian residents entering radonc- are they over represented amongst residents? (nothwistanding that this field is a poor career choice for anyone right now)
 
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I too have the white guy sob story background. No monetary parental help, broken home, addiction in the family, worst school district in the state, urban area in rust belt, majority minority city, lots of clubs and scholarships for minority groups, etc...

Still I was able to "somehow" bootstrap myself to find and win a half dozen scholarships that put me through college where I held 2 jobs to pay my living expenses.

Now that I've "made it", I have the luxury of looking back and taking an honest appraisal, and I can say unequivocally that it all would have been more difficult if I weren't white.
 
Mandelin Rain said:
I too have the white guy sob story background.
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Thanks for the low key insult. Is this a microaggression? It's this kind of reply that leads me to not talk about these things openly, so I guess it is.

So much for diversity, when you can easily mock financial disadvantage. Would it be acceptable to write "black guy sob story?" If not, I don't see why it's acceptable to write "white guy sob story." Or can we only be racist against non-whites?

I personally don't see how things would have been more difficult for me if I weren't white. That's just a difference in perspective I guess, though an unpopular one in 2020.
 
Mandelin Rain said:
I'm definitely not assuming that. But what you believe doesn't really matter. Reality matters.
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Of course. This is the narrative. Racism is what we say it is. Systemic racism exists because we say it exists.

Reality? The reality is you can't even define systemic racism. It's intentionally vague and therefore impossible to solve. The intent is to place this supposedly existent unsolvable problem in the hands of the government bureaucracy and throw money at it. We all know how that ends up.

If there is institutional racism. who controls the institutions? Academia, entertainment/sports, big tech, the federal bureaucracy, large urban municipalities, the media, publishing, etc. Virtually all of these institutions are controlled by the left, and these are the ones decrying this supposed institutionalized racism and the white boogey-man out there trying to lynch innocent blacks.

The reality is, that on the whole, in comparison to our past and the present state of other nations around the world, America is a very free and very open society with near equal opportunity for all that are willing to work hard. Unfortunately many communities, the AA community in particular (but many white communities too such as in rural Appalachia), is plagued by poverty and crime that is the result largely of young black men committing crime and fathering children out of wedlock that they do not support and perpetuating this cycle. Is this cycle of behavior a result of historical mistreatment of blacks? Perhaps to some extent. The bigger question here is how to create strong and healthy black families and communities that raise children wanting to take advantage of the opportunities this country offers them? Organizations like BLM seek the opposite of this. They are anti-family and anti-police. We need to be pro-family and pro-police to reduce black-on-black crime and build strong communities.

This false narrative that whites are out there like the KKK trying to lynch and intimidate blacks and the solution is to remove the police and redistribute wealth with reparations checks is extradinarily counterproductive and will result in a much more racially divided and hateful society than we had previously.

The reality is that 99.99 +% of white people are not prejudiced towards blacks. We work and live together as fellow citizens. We do not get uneasy seeing a black doctor. We consider each other equals. There will always be a couple of neo-nazi idiots out there and one-off hate crimes. To apply this line of thinking to all white people to some extent is an outright lie promulgated by the media. There is not an epidemic of white police officers killing unarmed non-aggressive black people. There were around 10 of these killings last year I believe (you can look up on the Washington Posts' database) and nearly all were justified use of force. 10 out many millions of encounters with the police. Anytime there is an obvious case of police brutality, such as the Walter Scott shooting, everybody is in agreement and the white officer is convicted of murder and justice is served. These cases are, in reality, very very rare.

Systemic racism and things like the 1619 project are a farce hoisted upon the masses by the far left to try and bring about the end of America's fundamental principles of freedom and replace it with a socialist system as they have been trying to do since at least the 1960s. Ilhan Omar basically admitted this yesterday:



Yes, we have a sitting united states congresswoman calling for the dismantling of the country she was elected to represent. How is that not treason?
Talk about reality...
 
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I'm not about to type out a tome on the history of white/black relations in this country spanning slavery to Jim Crow to Red Lining to the war on drugs to "define" systemic racism to anyone here. You can choose to ignore whatever you want. Science. Reality. Life. Our dear leader is setting a shining example.
 
Mandelin Rain said:
I'm not about to type out a tome on the history of white/black relations in this country spanning slavery to Jim Crow to Red Lining to the war on drugs to "define" systemic racism to anyone here. You can choose to ignore whatever you want. Science. Reality. Life. Our dear leader is setting a shining example.
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I certainly believe that pockets of racism exist throughout society but would disagree that there is any meaningful systemic racism in higher education and medicine or very liberal places like silicon valley/ the tech companies in which URM are nearly completely absent in highly technical positions (medphysics is an extension of this). Certainly plenty of other groups have encountered bias and similar adversities in the past and prospered whether that be jews pre and post holocaust, and pre war catholics (jews and catholic discrimination was impetus for creation of the SAT and much of standardized testing) or vietnamese boat people etc. Sure, the overly punitive criminal justice system needs reform, but not sure what we can do in medicine to address this.
 
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Mandelin Rain said:
I'm not about to type out a tome on the history of white/black relations in this country spanning slavery to Jim Crow to Red Lining to the war on drugs to "define" systemic racism to anyone here. You can choose to ignore whatever you want. Science. Reality. Life. Our dear leader is setting a shining example.
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RickyScott said:
I certainly believe that pockets of racism exist throughout society but would disagree that there is any meaningful systemic racism in higher education and medicine or very liberal places like silicon valley/ the tech companies in which URM are nearly completely absent in highly technical positions (medphysics is an extension of this). Certainly plenty of other groups have encountered bias and similar adversities in the past and prospered whether that be jews pre and post holocaust, and pre war catholics (jews and catholic discrimination was impetus for creation of the SAT and much of standardized testing) or vietnamese boat people etc. Sure, the overly punitive criminal justice system needs reform, but not sure what we can do in medicine to address this.
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One trouble I have with the nationwide conversation on this is that "systemic racism" is not defined the same by all groups.

I think Jim Crow laws were a form of systemic racism where there were actual laws (systemic component) that were racist.

The difficulty is with the historical fallout from those events. "Historically disadvantaged" and "systemic racism" are different in my vocabulary. I think to some (like @Mandelin Rain ?) the 2 concepts can fall under the words "systemic racism." So for radiation oncology residency match, there is some component of historical disadvantage to explain the low rate of URMs, but not system wide institutionalized discrimination. I would not call that "systemic racism" (@RickyScott and I seem to agree on this). Perhaps, @Mandelin Rain would say this is "systemic racism," so is it possible we agreeing on the concepts, just squabbling about words to a certain degree?

Edit: All the examples used above a) slavery b) Jim Crow c) Red Lining d) war on drugs are all actual laws that were passed. These would be examples of systemic racism. Rad onc resident matching, being asked CN questions, distribution URMs in medicine, I would say are not examples of systemic racism. To be clear, I believe in historical disadvantage, but do not equate that with systemic racism.
 
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Mandelin Rain said:
I'm not about to type out a tome on the history of white/black relations in this country spanning slavery to Jim Crow to Red Lining to the war on drugs to "define" systemic racism to anyone here. You can choose to ignore whatever you want. Science. Reality. Life. Our dear leader is setting a shining example.
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Cool. You are talking about policies from multiple generations ago. In the example of slavery, 150+ years ago.
Playing armchair quarterback and saying you would have been out there in streets protesting racism in 1950 isn't really all that helpful. Would you have really? Perhaps there were good people back then who did the best they could in the times they lived in. Perhaps it's foolish to villianize all these people and rip their statues down because we are so confident we would have been just as woke if we had lived back then. Instead you are choosing to ignore all the progress that has been made and pretending that we are still living in 1950.

In the context of how the universe was formed and what was there beforehand, there is this concept of time that goes "once time existed, it always existed."
Is racism the same? Once systemic racism existed it always existed? All we can do is accept it, and atone for it? Is this our new religion?

The phrase "systemic racism" is a fictious newspeak concept intentionally designed to be unsolvable. It misleads people into believing that they are responsible for the sins of their fathers and hopelessly irredemeable, and that only through government intervention can a fair equality of outcome be acheived as whites are all inherently flawed by their history. It's total anti-individual pro-collective trialistic b.s.. And it will destroy us if we allow it to flourish over the principle of individual responsibility and all being created equal by God.
 
RadOncMegatron said:
One trouble I have with the nationwide conversation on this is that "systemic racism" is not defined the same by all groups.

I think Jim Crow laws were a form of systemic racism where there were actual laws (systemic component) that were racist.

The difficulty is with the historical fallout from those events. "Historically disadvantaged" and "systemic racism" are different in my vocabulary. I think to some (like @Mandelin Rain ?) the 2 concepts can fall under the words "systemic racism." So for radiation oncology residency match, there is some component of historical disadvantage to explain the low rate of URMs, but not system wide institutionalized discrimination. I would not call that "systemic racism" (@RickyScott and I seem to agree on this). Perhaps, @Mandelin Rain would say this is "systemic racism," so is it possible we agreeing on the concepts, just squabbling about words to a certain degree?

Edit: All the examples used above a) slavery b) Jim Crow c) Red Lining d) war on drugs are all actual laws that were passed. These would be examples of systemic racism. Rad onc resident matching, being asked CN questions, distribution URMs in medicine, I would say are not examples of systemic racism. To be clear, I believe in historical disadvantage, but do not equate that with systemic racism.
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One of the arguments for systemic bias is that we are all subconsciously biased (just like with oedipus complex) which leads to us treating urm unfairly even though we may not see ourselves as overtly racist. While I can accept limited/trivial subconscious bias could possibly exist, I disagree it leads to any meaningful adverse behaviors. I treat people fairly and dont need to be de programmed.
 
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Idol (statue) worship AND creationism (by God, nonetheless) in one post!

I wish I was living a dream, but I'm living in America in 2020.

Y'all too much.
 
I think there is some level of racism on a systemic national level, like differences in minimums for those with crack vs cocaine, what percentage of each racial population makes up our prisons, etc.

Whether this applies to radiation oncology on a systemic level is something I think is not really an issue, in this moment.

Regardless, let's keep the discussion on this forum about racism/diversity IN radiation oncology/medicine. Getting into the weeds of systemic racism, sexism, etc. on a national level is what will get this thread locked.
 
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Mandelin Rain said:
Idol (statue) worship AND creationism (by God, nonetheless) in one post!

I wish I was living a dream, but I'm living in America in 2020.

Y'all too much.
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Edit: In response to moderator post above as I was writing this I will not respond further, but will just say you greatly misinterpreted my points and attributed things to me that are false.
 
It's remarkable how quickly and easily people who otherwise appreciate nuance and complexity become reductionist vis a vis race.

Firstly, systemic racism exists. If there were two babies born in America with equal innate intellect, capability and temperament -but one was white and one was black... and the white kid grew up in a median "white" home, and the black kid grew up in a median "black" home, the white kid would be more likely to get a good public school education, more likely to get into college, would make more money, and would be less likely to end up in prison. Is this because there are evil racists keeping the black kid away from opportunity?... probably not. However, the median accumulated wealth of a white family is ten times that of a black family. This translates into better neighborhoods, lower crime, better schools. In these better neighborhoods, people walking down the street are less likely to be arrested... and when they are, they are less likely to end up in prison. The wealth difference is multi-factorial, but it would be foolish to disregard the very recent practice of "redlining" which prevented many AAs of all income brackets from getting loans to purchase houses in nice neighborhoods until VERY recently (homeownership being the primary vehicle for wealth accumulation in America). While this is no longer the case today, AAs are less likely to have wealth passed down from the parents because of these recent practices. This is to say nothing of laws like the crime bill which sent people away for possessing 5 g of crack (a drug more prominent in AA communities) for decades while 10x as much coke (a drug more prominent among whites) was punished with a lower sentence -again, this is no longer the case, but the damage was done. There are countless other examples of laws, rules, and practices that have been (and still are) disproportionately punitive to AAs and other minorities.

On the other hand, there are MILLIONS of white Americans for whom the word "privileged" would seem a gross misrepresentation, and there are plenty of AAs who grew up in affluent homes with ample opportunity.

My personal take is as follows. Systemic racism exists, but the term "white privilege" misses the mark. Privilege is defined: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group. If we acknowledge that white people, collectively, have more opportunities than black people do (and we should)... we should ask ourselves, are these opportunities "special"? Not growing up in poverty and not going to prison for decades on a small-volume drug charge doesn't strike me as "special"... it strikes me as the way things should be for everyone. Also, we think of a "privilege" as something that one can lose... should white people lose their safety and opportunity to foster equality? No.... that wouldn't solve anyone's problems. Lastly, there are many white people who have had hard lives and they don't need to bear the shame of being called "privileged" while they struggle to feed their families. It's like you get a 68% on a test and someone grabs your test, throws it on the ground, and screams "it's not fair, you got the easy version". I just don't see the term "white privilege" convincing anyone of anything... and is likely an obstacle to addressing systemic racism.
 
One of the best things we can do for minorities is end the war on drugs completely. Portugal has excellent data on this, too many physicians with backwards views on this. Us physicians have to get on board. I always hated as an intern when people got a UDS, it was one of the most useless tests and extremely prejudicial. So what is the rad onc connection to this? (Gotta check box). Maybe Marcus Randall can get his hands on some good LSD like in the 60s and take a nice trip and find all the “evidence” he seeks. I think it may really open up many minds in our field. Too many boring turtles sitting at the top.
 
Lamount said:
It's remarkable how quickly and easily people who otherwise appreciate nuance and complexity become reductionist vis a vis race.

Firstly, systemic racism exists. If there were two babies born in America with equal innate intellect, capability and temperament -but one was white and one was black... and the white kid grew up in a median "white" home, and the black kid grew up in a median "black" home, the white kid would be more likely to get a good public school education, more likely to get into college, would make more money, and would be less likely to end up in prison. Is this because there are evil racists keeping the black kid away from opportunity?... probably not. However, the median accumulated wealth of a white family is ten times that of a black family. This translates into better neighborhoods, lower crime, better schools. In these better neighborhoods, people walking down the street are less likely to be arrested... and when they are, they are less likely to end up in prison. The wealth difference is multi-factorial, but it would be foolish to disregard the very recent practice of "redlining" which prevented many AAs of all income brackets from getting loans to purchase houses in nice neighborhoods until VERY recently (homeownership being the primary vehicle for wealth accumulation in America). While this is no longer the case today, AAs are less likely to have wealth passed down from the parents because of these recent practices. This is to say nothing of laws like the crime bill which sent people away for possessing 5 g of crack (a drug more prominent in AA communities) for decades while 10x as much coke (a drug more prominent among whites) was punished with a lower sentence -again, this is no longer the case, but the damage was done. There are countless other examples of laws, rules, and practices that have been (and still are) disproportionately punitive to AAs and other minorities.

On the other hand, there are MILLIONS of white Americans for whom the word "privileged" would seem a gross misrepresentation, and there are plenty of AAs who grew up in affluent homes with ample opportunity.

My personal take is as follows. Systemic racism exists, but the term "white privilege" misses the mark. Privilege is defined: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group. If we acknowledge that white people, collectively, have more opportunities than black people do (and we should)... we should ask ourselves, are these opportunities "special"? Not growing up in poverty and not going to prison for decades on a small-volume drug charge doesn't strike me as "special"... it strikes me as the way things should be for everyone. Also, we think of a "privilege" as something that one can lose... should white people lose their safety and opportunity to foster equality? No.... that wouldn't solve anyone's problems. Lastly, there are many white people who have had hard lives and they don't need to bear the shame of being called "privileged" while they struggle to feed their families. It's like you get a 68% on a test and someone grabs your test, throws it on the ground, and screams "it's not fair, you got the easy version". I just don't see the term "white privilege" convincing anyone of anything... and is likely an obstacle to addressing systemic racism.
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If the arguments were presented like this with your nuance, there probably would be very little disagreement. We could probably actually start moving forward with solutions. Unfortunately, there are those in our field who refuse to have the debate! This is the main concern if ASTRO were to take Drs. Winkfield, Jagsi, and Chapman side of things.
 
Lamount said:
My personal take is as follows. Systemic racism exists, but the term "white privilege" misses the mark. Privilege is defined: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group. If we acknowledge that white people, collectively, have more opportunities than black people do (and we should)... we should ask ourselves, are these opportunities "special"? Not growing up in poverty and not going to prison for decades on a small-volume drug charge doesn't strike me as "special"... it strikes me as the way things should be for everyone. Also, we think of a "privilege" as something that one can lose... should white people lose their safety and opportunity to foster equality? No.... that wouldn't solve anyone's problems. Lastly, there are many white people who have had hard lives and they don't need to bear the shame of being called "privileged" while they struggle to feed their families. It's like you get a 68% on a test and someone grabs your test, throws it on the ground, and screams "it's not fair, you got the easy version". I just don't see the term "white privilege" convincing anyone of anything... and is likely an obstacle to addressing systemic racism.
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I've also thought about the term "white privilege" and why some people have such a hard time with it. How can a poor white person with ****ty parents feel like they have had any privilege? My take is that being white is a privilege in America, but there are so many other factors that can influence one's trajectory. People can be privileged or disadvantaged in terms of wealth, education, family support (no parents vs single mom/dad vs two parents, parents that give a damn), extended family support, community, health, and sometimes good vs bad luck. Today in America, I think being white is a small privilege and being from a good family or having money is a much bigger privilege. If we routinely acknowledge that these other things also make a big difference, swallowing the "white privilege" pill would be easier.
 
w00tz said:
I've also thought about the term "white privilege" and why some people have such a hard time with it. How can a poor white person with ****ty parents feel like they have had any privilege? My take is that being white is a privilege in America, but there are so many other factors that can influence one's trajectory. People can be privileged or disadvantaged in terms of wealth, education, family support (no parents vs single mom/dad vs two parents, parents that give a damn), extended family support, community, health, and sometimes good vs bad luck. Today in America, I think being white is a small privilege and being from a good family or having money is a much bigger privilege. If we routinely acknowledge that these other things also make a big difference, swallowing the "white privilege" pill would be easier.
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I think my concerns with "white privilege" can be broken down into issues semantics and marketing.

From a semantics perspective, a privilege is a selective treatment that is only bestowed on a few lucky people. Not growing up in poverty and not being stopped and frisked by police should be standard of care in America... not a "privilege".

From a marketing perspective, "white privilege" immediately puts the very people whom we are trying to convince on the defensive. There is nothing wrong with growing up free of experiencing discrimination... nothing to apologize for. Rather than imploring white people to "check their privilege", why not implore them to help extend these basic human rights to everyone?
 
Hatred of redlight cameras unites the entire political spectrum just like dislike of the ABR. Syphilis or a colonoscopy is more popular than the ABR at the moment. The criminalization of people because they cannot pay a fee needs to stop. This is what cartels do, like how the ABR holds a gun to your head or else good luck to you. These people are criminals, moral lilliputians and all sides need to unite to put a stop to mob rule in this field.

the good ol’ boys club is done folks. Right and left can agree on that. You have eaten enough tortured baby cow and goat. It is time for the Biryani.
 
Give me another chance. We can have a movie night. I’ll make popcorn, you bring Falling Down on VHS. It’ll be fun.
 
Again Here is systemic racism for you: even if you don’t think you are racist, you are!

“All elected and appointed leaders must participate in training on unconscious bias, microaggressions, and strategies to mitigate the destructive effects of racism.”

“Acknowledge that implicit bias exists and is deleterious to the success of Black ASTRO members”
 
The "white privilege" thing used to put me on the defensive too. I thought it in someway diminished my accomplishments as easy. I've been through some things, I know it wasn't easy. I started to see it in another light though. It's an acknowledgement that there is this whole other set of hurdles over here for non-whites that you never really have to think about or even know exist. The not knowing is the privilege. I bet you didn't go to your first day of med school anxiously wondering how many people would look like you. That is a small privilege that only white people have. There are a lot of these small privileges from interactions with police, health care, justice system, lenders, bosses, whatever... that occur every day that you don't ever have to think about. Which is cool. It doesn't make your life any easier. It just means your life isn't even more difficult because of your skin color.

Those fearing the "new world order" or loss of "American culture" or "way of life" are really scared of losing a system put in place by people who look like them to benefit people who look like them and be amorally punitive to people who don't look like them. This system has allowed the "legal" displacement/murder, Trail of tears of one group, enslavement of another, internment of yet another, segregation of all, and incarceration of many. It's not like this happened in the pre-enlightment Dark Ages a millennia ago. This is (in some cases, very) recent history of our country. It's an uncomfortable history for white people to hear because the school books focused more of Washington crossing the Delaware and "Two if by Sea". But to pretend that this system doesn't have continued impacts on the lives of people who didn't have a voice in creating it is ludicrous. If that's your contention, you're being willfully ignorant, at best.

My suggestion is to get used to it. African American culture has become American culture. The great melting pot and all. The change is coming whether you like it or not.
 
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Mandelin Rain said:
The "white privilege" thing used to put me on the defensive too. I thought it in someway diminished my accomplishments as easy. I've been through some things, I know it wasn't easy. I started to see it in another light though. It's an acknowledgement that there is this whole other set of hurdles over here for non-whites that you never really have to think about or even know exist. The not knowing is the privilege. I bet you didn't go to your first day of med school anxiously wondering how many people would look like you. That is a small privilege that only white people have. There are a lot of these small privileges from interactions with police, health care, justice system, lenders, bosses, whatever... that occur every day that you don't ever have to think about. Which is cool. It doesn't make your life any easier. It just means your life isn't even more difficult because of your skin color.

Those fearing the "new world order" or loss of "American culture" or "way of life" are really scared of losing a system put in place by people who look like them to benefit people who look like them and be amorally punitive to people who don't look like them. This system has allowed the "legal" displacement/murder, Trail of tears of one group, enslavement of another, internment of yet another, segregation of all, and incarceration of many. It's not like this happened in the pre-enlightment Dark Ages a millennia ago. This is (in some cases, very) recent history of our country. It's an uncomfortable history for white people to hear because the school books focused more of Washington crossing the Delaware and "Two if by Sea". But to pretend that this system doesn't have continued impacts on the lives of people who didn't have a voice in creating it is ludicrous. If that's your contention, you're being willfully ignorant, at best.

My suggestion is to get used to it. African American culture has become American culture. The great melting pot and all. The change is coming whether you like it or not.
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I don't have too many issues with your statement, maybe it's because the hot buzzwords like "white privilege," "systemic racism," etc. were not used???

The question comes back full circle, what should radiation oncology do about it? What does ASTRO or ASCO do about it? Shouldn't there be more talk before implementing diversity boards at the highest levels of oncology? If white people make up (don't have the numbers in front of me) a proportional amount of rad oncs and there are "too many"/out of proportion Asians, Indians and Jews, why do we need a typical diversity board?

I think what is truly upsetting is that these conversations in oncology are being had only on this thread in a public manner due to fear of reprisal. Surely, you agree we should some open panels with fair discussion at ASTRO with diverging points of view. I think we found some agreement here after we stopped using the buzzwords and just focused on concepts (something I will carry onto real life).
 
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RadOncMegatron said:
I don't have too many issues with your statement, maybe it's because the hot buzzwords like "white privilege," "systemic racism," etc. were not used???

The question comes back full circle, what should radiation oncology do about it? What does ASTRO or ASCO do about it? Shouldn't there be more talk before implementing diversity boards at the highest levels of oncology? If white people make up (don't have the numbers in front of me) a proportional amount of rad oncs and there are "too many"/out of proportion Asians, Indians and Jews, why do we need a typical diversity board?

I think what is truly upsetting is that these conversations in oncology are being had only on this thread in a public manner due to fear of reprisal. Surely, you agree we should some open panels with fair discussion at ASTRO with diverging points of view. I think we found some agreement here after we stopped using the buzzwords and just focused on concepts (something I will carry onto real life).
Click to expand...
There is no discussion to be had. It trumps everything else for some too, on top of it. Just look at the Twitter post in the other thread from Dr Siker guilting people for even discussing boards and job market issues rather than race/LGBTQ ones
 
RadOncMegatron said:
I don't have too many issues with your statement, maybe it's because the hot buzzwords like "white privilege," "systemic racism," etc. were not used???

The question comes back full circle, what should radiation oncology do about it? What does ASTRO or ASCO do about it? Shouldn't there be more talk before implementing diversity boards at the highest levels of oncology? If white people make up (don't have the numbers in front of me) a proportional amount of rad oncs and there are "too many"/out of proportion Asians, Indians and Jews, why do we need a typical diversity board?

I think what is truly upsetting is that these conversations in oncology are being had only on this thread in a public manner due to fear of reprisal. Surely, you agree we should some open panels with fair discussion at ASTRO with diverging points of view. I think we found some agreement here after we stopped using the buzzwords and just focused on concepts (something I will carry onto real life).
Click to expand...

Yes it’s not radonc fault that there is a such a small number of URM in med schools

Can’t fix things when there are minimum candidates

Now if URM or women are being excluded
Or unfairly judged for interviews or residency positions then the field is at fault

Similarly, if there are issues on the promotions side then there is issue

But idk if there is or not and if there was, I support fixing it

But i take umbrage with being called a racist or sexist just bc I’m a radonc ala Malika Siker, Chapman etc
 
medgator said:
There is no discussion to be had. It trumps everything else for some too, on top of it. Just look at the Twitter post in the other thread from Dr Siker guilting people for even discussing boards and job market issues rather than race/LGBTQ ones
Click to expand...

Link? Screenshots? Vaguely remember, I'm sure I saw it but forgot...
 
Is it worthwhile to look at where the 6 authors of the paper that is presently generating discussion call home? I take people seriously when they put their money where their mouth is? There are jobs open in Jackson, MS. Oh, right, this isn't about the patients, it's about the doctors.
 
RadOncMegatron said:
Link? Screenshots? Vaguely remember, I'm sure I saw it but forgot...
Click to expand...
It's all in the other thread
forums.studentdoctor.net

Rad Onc Twitter

Just went to ROHub... It has been 8 days and zero replies from #WomenWhoCurie, any radonc (let alone female radonc), or any ASTRO members... So much for ASTRO to silence Simul... This alone tells everyone the status of this field, nobody stands up for what is right. Pretty much like the FDA...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
 
Ray D. Ayshun said:
Is it worthwhile to look at where the 6 authors of the paper that is presently generating discussion call home? I take people seriously when they put their money where their mouth is? There are jobs open in Jackson, MS. Oh, right, this isn't about the patients, it's about the doctors.
Click to expand...
medgator said:
It's all in the other thread
forums.studentdoctor.net

Rad Onc Twitter

Just went to ROHub... It has been 8 days and zero replies from #WomenWhoCurie, any radonc (let alone female radonc), or any ASTRO members... So much for ASTRO to silence Simul... This alone tells everyone the status of this field, nobody stands up for what is right. Pretty much like the FDA...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
Click to expand...

Only lemmiwenks and MROGA2020 have stuck out their necks to disagree. I wonder if they will push back even more?

 
RickyScott said:
There is merit in increasing minorities in radonc to better serve those communities, but you just can’t do this in good faith in the current job market.
Click to expand...
Perhaps. But once they graduate, will they go serve those communities or take a faculty posish at a huge cancer center and publish diarrhea? I'd say the evidence would suggest the latter.
 
Ray D. Ayshun said:
Perhaps. But once they graduate, will they go serve those communities or take a faculty posish at a huge cancer center and publish diarrhea? I'd say the evidence would suggest the latter.
Click to expand...
But it is at the very least a legitimate discourse to have as a specialty, and something very much within our purview. The wheels come off when we start getting into unconscious racial bias and mandatory seminars on how to recognize micro aggressions. Other than making sure that the black community is served by radonc and that blacks have equal opportunities within the field, We should not be involved in this.
 
RickyScott said:
But it is at the very least a legitimate discourse to have as a specialty, and something very much within our purview. The wheels come off when we start getting into unconscious racial bias and mandatory seminars on how to recognize micro aggressions. Other than making sure that the black community is served by radonc and that blacks have equal opportunities within the field, We should not be involved in this.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I like fair. It's been my experience that the radonc residency match is presently biased for and against certain populations...I think the point's been made in these papers, and we're just beating a dead horse at this point. Could really use these minds to tell me how we should treat rectal cancer...
 
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