Dare you to reply!

[thecarbonionangle]

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"Radiation oncology has traditionally been a competitive specialty that attracts applicants with high USMLE Step 1 scores but also a specialty where representation of underrepresented minorities and women has been disproportionately low."
Not for nothing but men are underrepresented in ob/gyn. Does this have to do with gender bias, or just that not a lot of men, relatively, choose to go into ob/gyn. Does the faculty in physics at the Princeton IAS look like this due to bias, or that women, relatively, don't choose to pursue theoretical physics. We can get into discussions about females and STEM, and how much math & physics there are in rad onc, etc.

"The transition to the USMLE Step 1 exam from numerical scoring to a pass/fail system will ... allow for the selection of well-rounded individuals who will effectively lead our specialty into the future."
What is valued now in medicine: brilliance or "well-rounded"ness (which is quick becoming a code word in medicine)? I foresee in the future ways of testing for the latter, and the demonstration of superiority there outshining the former. And the latter will be more prized than the former. We won't have microwave ovens, GUT solutions, or trips to Titan, but we'll all be non-offensive to one another.

getting a “well rounded” applicant is a good thing but what bothers me is that this is absolute hypocrisy. Take a place like MDACC or MSK, where they did not invite a majority of people and certainly not most URMs. Do you think the criteria was give me the files on all URM and very interesting applicants vs give everyone with a 250+, AOA, multiple first authors and all MD/PHD files? We know the answer. The intellectual gymnastics here are quite interesting. And all of a sudden for these places to lecture people on fairness and uplifting URMs is just laughable. Dr Das you had your chance to help minorities and you clearly didn’t take it, perhaps Dr Pinnix will!

 

[RickyScott]

You can have both brilliant and well rounded but the consistent insinuations that prior residents were not just bc they have high step scores is frankly insulting

You can have both brilliant and well rounded but the consistent insinuations that prior residents were not just bc they have high step scores is frankly insulting

yup. Guess what ethnic group tests well and is good at math, and therefore it must follow that they have bland personalities and no “real” life experiences.

 

[Neuronix]

for the first time in my life, and I'm in the top 1% re: English according to numerous standardized tests I've taken, and all the processing centers in my brain are drawing complete blanks on deciphering the meaning of this phrase.

It's just jargon. Groups evolve their jargon over time so that they know who is in their group.

 

[RickyScott]

What degree of success is due to educational opportunities vs genetic differences- what does the science of behavioral genetics tell us? What would happen if we all had totally equal opportunities? This week on Sam harris. Hint: it is more genetics than anyone wants to admit.

Amazon product ASIN 0262039168

https://samharris.org/subscriber-rss

 

[Lamount]

Many writers—Shakespeare, Churchill, King, Obama—would be screwed trying to get into a rad onc residency evidently. I've read them extensively, and let me tell you: they're biased to the teeth. Imagine writing your personal statement and titling it "Dreams From My Father." You'd not get into the Yale rad onc residency. I am literally hearing "balancing your communal and agents properties" for the first time in my life, and I'm in the top 1% re: English according to numerous standardized tests I've taken, and all the processing centers in my brain are drawing complete blanks on deciphering the meaning of this phrase. Even Google is like WTF.

It's like that terrible philosophy class we all had to take where, to pass the course, you needed to espouse the opinions that you knew your professor wanted to hear, making certain to touch on all of the appropriate buzzwords.
Honestly, you couldn't pay enough money to go through this again... especially these days.

 

[Reaganite]

What would happen if we all had totally equal opportunities?

Whats already happened in just about every facet of life...a nice L shaped pareto curve. 🙂

 

[FreeRT]

This has been happening and escalating in corporate America for the past few decades.
Mandatory diversity seminars and sensitivity training provided by outside consultants.
If microaggressions are violence, then words are violence, and free speech or saying things that offend people cannot be allowed in the workplace! If someone claims they were offended, well then that's naturally grounds for losing your job.

It's a racket. The corporations capitulate and pay the ransom for these training seminars and hire some useless "chief diversity officer" position so that if anyone tries to come at them later with a lawsuit they can point and say, "see, we trained everybody, our hands are clean in this! It's not our fault Dr. KHE88 told a joke someone didn't like!"

Race-baiters like Al Sharpton have literally made careers doing this. Going to corporations and calling them racist and threatening them with boycots unless they pay up.
It shouldn't be surprising that the medical industry is not immune from this racket.

Certainly no discrimination against white males here. It seems to melt away as you get into much higher level admin positions. Look at all the CMO's, presidents, chairs of hospitals, med schools, cancer centers, and yes, insurance companies.

Nevertheless, it's comical how white males are turned down for many positions because hiring them would not contribute to "diversity". In our rural community, a white male physician who practiced in our area for at least 2 decades was let go from the VA clinic due to their diversity initiatives. He had to move to practice in a town 3 hours away. In the meantime, the VA clinic went through a rotating door of various URM and ORM physicians who would stay no more than a few months because they just couldn't fully integrate into the community--which is predominantly white. In the end, patients suffered from this "diversity" initiative and now the whole clinic is run by NP's. Clearly, you need to look at the community before you start imposing diversity benchmarks.

 

[RickyScott]

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Spiraling out of control very fast. There may be a solution from the NEJM. It's called the "majority tax": https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMpv2022964

"White physicians should pay “majority taxes,” comprising discomfort, energy, and capital. These taxes would include three initial steps to guide good intentions toward better impact: acknowledge your White privilege, no matter how uncomfortable; leverage privilege to highlight medical racism; and humbly and actively implement antiracist policies."

To be included in this majority tax on white folk could be certain types of cancer to even out the disparity?

If this stuff isn't peak woke, I am concerned what will be next... I have a suggestion - Harvard, MSKCC, and MDACC as bastions of systemic racism and white privilege! To be serious, aren't those places the definition of the very meritocracy & inequity they say they hate?

 

[deleted480308]

They’ve gone silly

 

[medgator]

Spiraling out of control very fast. There may be a solution from the NEJM. It's called the "majority tax": https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMpv2022964

"White physicians should pay “majority taxes,” comprising discomfort, energy, and capital. These taxes would include three initial steps to guide good intentions toward better impact: acknowledge your White privilege, no matter how uncomfortable; leverage privilege to highlight medical racism; and humbly and actively implement antiracist policies."

To be included in this majority tax on white folk could be certain types of cancer to even out the disparity?

If this stuff isn't peak woke, I am concerned what will be next... I have a suggestion - Harvard, MSKCC, and MDACC as bastions of systemic racism and white privilege! To be serious, aren't those places the definition of the very meritocracy & inequity they say they hate?

Isn't Yale considering changing its name given the history of it?

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Isn't Yale considering changing its name given the history of it?

Last I heard was No, given the prestige and name brand effect. They are not willing to do that yet to themselves.

 

[radiaterMike]

Apparently ageism is acceptable to "woke" MDs ... and sexism is directly correlated to age (never mind that the 3 authors who snooped on and reported on their colleagues via social media were 28, 33 and 37).

 

[RadOncMegatron]

One reason to not get on Twitter in this nasty political climate is below. I wonder if this physician can actually treat his Republican patients fairly. Not saying he can’t, but certainly comments like this is worse than wearing a bikini on social media. Yes, also physicians who write all Democrats are piece of trash should be questioned as well. One thing to express an opinion and another to make broad stroke claims about everyone in a political party, but perhaps it’s just Twitter/SoMe bringing the worst out of all of us.

Republicans not only buy sneakers, but are patients too. Not a good look...

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

One reason to not get on Twitter in this nasty political climate is below. I wonder if this physician can actually treat his Republican patients fairly. Not saying he can’t, but certainly comments like this is worse than wearing a bikini on social media. Yes, also physicians who write all Democrats are piece of trash should be questioned as well. One thing to express an opinion and another to make broad stroke claims about everyone in a political party, but perhaps it’s just Twitter/SoMe bringing the worst out of all of us.

Republicans not only buy sneakers, but are patients too. Not a good look...

Well, Virginia, where the capital of the confederacy was located, voted to ratify this year. Also, the ERA remains a proposed amendment, though I can't recall if it's even still possible to ratify it in any sort of official sense.

 

[medgator]

One reason to not get on Twitter in this nasty political climate is below. I wonder if this physician can actually treat his Republican patients fairly. Not saying he can’t, but certainly comments like this is worse than wearing a bikini on social media. Yes, also physicians who write all Democrats are piece of trash should be questioned as well. One thing to express an opinion and another to make broad stroke claims about everyone in a political party, but perhaps it’s just Twitter/SoMe bringing the worst out of all of us.

Republicans not only buy sneakers, but are patients too. Not a good look...

To be honest, the GOP is in an identity crisis now, it has nationalist/identity politics at the forefront and a number of anti-Trump Republican groups like RVAT, the Lincoln project, 43 alumni for Biden etc. have formed, which imo was entirely predictable after 2016.

Definitely a more complicated issue than what that tweet would lead one to believe, and it's not clear from tweet that he would treat certain patients differently. I certainly don't discuss politics in the office with my patients, and i doubt most anyone else does either.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

To be honest, the GOP is in an identity crisis now, it has nationalist/identity politics at the forefront and a number of anti-Trump Republican groups like RVAT, the Lincoln project, 43 alumni for Biden etc. have formed, which imo was entirely predictable after 2016.

Definitely a more complicated issue than what that tweet would lead one to believe, and it's not clear from tweet that he would treat certain patients differently. I certainly don't discuss politics in the office with my patients, and i doubt most anyone else does either.

To be honest, I think the Democratic Party is at a similar crossroads vis a vis identity politics.

Our country needs a healer/uniter/reconciler in the worst way. We don’t need more finger pointing, blaming, punitive actions. We need our Nelson Mandela.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

To be honest, I think the Democratic Party is at a similar crossroads vis a vis identity politics.

Our country needs a healer/uniter/reconciler in the worst way. We don’t need more finger pointing, blaming, punitive actions. We need our Nelson Mandela.

Make America great again, again.

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Thank goodness some are willing to punch back!

From the Journal of the American Heart Association

Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity: Evolution of Race and Ethnicity Considerations for the Cardiology Workforce in the United States of America From 1969 to 2019

Quote from the paper:

"There exists no empirical evidence by accepted standards for causal inference to support the mantra that “diversity saves lives.”60 Patients may feel more engaged with physicians of the same race and ethnicity.91 A recent systematic review demonstrated that better communication was present on several metrics, but not quality, when patient and physician racial and ethnic concordance was present.92 However, these studies need to be interpreted cautiously as they encourage the reduction of complex individuals to little more than their races and ethnicities. In addition, one study even demonstrated that Hispanic men were less satisfied on certain aspects of their medical care when interacting with Hispanic healthcare providers.93 "


When I saw that this Tweet about the AHA paper against the DIE movement was "citing the Student Doctor Network" for one second I thought it might be this thread LOL

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Thank goodness some are willing to punch back!

From the Journal of the American Heart Association

Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity: Evolution of Race and Ethnicity Considerations for the Cardiology Workforce in the United States of America From 1969 to 2019

Quote from the paper:

"There exists no empirical evidence by accepted standards for causal inference to support the mantra that “diversity saves lives.”60 Patients may feel more engaged with physicians of the same race and ethnicity.91 A recent systematic review demonstrated that better communication was present on several metrics, but not quality, when patient and physician racial and ethnic concordance was present.92 However, these studies need to be interpreted cautiously as they encourage the reduction of complex individuals to little more than their races and ethnicities. In addition, one study even demonstrated that Hispanic men were less satisfied on certain aspects of their medical care when interacting with Hispanic healthcare providers.93 "


When I saw that this Tweet about the AHA paper against the DIE movement was "citing the Student Doctor Network" for one second I thought it might be this thread LOL

The interpretation based on this tweet is they said diversity doesn't save lives as opposed to saying there is no great evidence it does. What I think this means is that you should just give up, and take solace in the fact that someday the sun will explode...

 

[deleted480308]

The interpretation based on this tweet is they said diversity doesn't save lives as opposed to saying there is no great evidence it does. What I think this means is that you should just give up, and take solace in the fact that someday the sun will explode...

Wait, so neither bikinis nor being ORM make you a bad doctor? (Sun explodes)

 

[RickyScott]

c elegans is being marginalized and derided. Outcry over “publically disparaging a species”: Worm Joke Causes Science Twitter Flame War Over Accusations of Sexism and Racism

 

[BobbyHeenan]

Would Vinay Prasad or Darrel Francis dare to take on the data for implicit bias training?

I respect them a ton, would love to see their take on this. Treacherous territory though.

 

[evilbooyaa]

c elegans is being marginalized and derided. Outcry over “publically disparaging a species”: Worm Joke Causes Science Twitter Flame War Over Accusations of Sexism and Racism

Just another reason to never bother with a twitter, and if one insists, to ensure nothing is posted that can be taken in a negative context in any manner, as folks love to throw 'privilege' around quite a bit.

 

[GI_RadOnc]

Sometimes, I think people think this is all aimed at white men... a recent report faulted a well-renowned radiation oncologist; though not in her clinical role. This can touch anyone.

Search committee member did not reveal past harassment claims against UM provost, report finds
" According to the report, Dr. Lori Pierce, vice provost for academic and faculty affairs and a member of the search committee that vetted Philbert and other candidates, knew allegations of sexual harassment had been lodged against him in 2005, though an official investigation was never launched. "

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Sometimes, I think people think this is all aimed at white men... a recent report faulted a well-renowned radiation oncologist; though not in her clinical role. This can touch anyone.

Search committee member did not reveal past harassment claims against UM provost, report finds
" According to the report, Dr. Lori Pierce, vice provost for academic and faculty affairs and a member of the search committee that vetted Philbert and other candidates, knew allegations of sexual harassment had been lodged against him in 2005, though an official investigation was never launched. "

Is the implication that Dr Pierce ignored the accusations because of an implicit bias, or was just derelict in her duty to present everything to the board for some other reason?

 

[scarbrtj]

Sometimes, I think people think this is all aimed at white men... a recent report faulted a well-renowned radiation oncologist; though not in her clinical role. This can touch anyone.

Search committee member did not reveal past harassment claims against UM provost, report finds
" According to the report, Dr. Lori Pierce, vice provost for academic and faculty affairs and a member of the search committee that vetted Philbert and other candidates, knew allegations of sexual harassment had been lodged against him in 2005, though an official investigation was never launched. "

Wowie. Making Lori Pierce sound Gary Schultz-y/Tim Curley-y. And who's ever heard anything negative about Lori Pierce. Man. First Ellen and now Lori Pierce. She didn't do anything wrong besides not #BalanceTonPorc.

 

[CaesarRO]

Haven't done too much digging, but am I understanding right that they think it was her duty to mention she'd heard allegations that were not investigated?

I feel like it would clearly be important to mention if the investigation had gone forward, but since nothing came of it at the time, I'm not sure how strongly I feel that she was obligated to bring it up.

Clearly, more has been discovered since then and it sounds like the decision not to investigate initially is the bigger scandal than that Lori Pierce didn't mention it to the rest of the search committee.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Haven't done too much digging, but am I understanding right that they think it was her duty to mention she'd heard allegations that were not investigated?

I feel like it would clearly be important to mention if the investigation had gone forward, but since nothing came of it at the time, I'm not sure how strongly I feel that she was obligated to bring it up.

Clearly, more has been discovered since then and it sounds like the decision not to investigate initially is the bigger scandal than that Lori Pierce didn't mention it to the rest of the search committee.

The timing is important. If this occurred in 2017 that was after President Obama sent guidance (2011) to schools to redress sexual assaults ac a civil rights matter. Abundant examples of male (usually) students thrown out of school for allegations followed.

 

[DoctwoB]

To be honest, I think the Democratic Party is at a similar crossroads vis a vis identity politics.

Our country needs a healer/uniter/reconciler in the worst way. We don’t need more finger pointing, blaming, punitive actions. We need our Nelson Mandela.

This is why everyone in both parties should be against gerrymandering. On average it benefits R's right now (hasn't always been the case) though certainly both parties engage in it. The real issue, however is it leads to hyper polarization and partisanship. When your district is safe R or safe D, the real election is the primary. Which means that candidates have to pander to their parties primary voters, who on average are even more on the far right/left then the party as a whole. If a candidate has to focus on winning the general election and not the primary, they're more likely to steer towards the center.

I also agree that we need voices of unity more then of division. I depsise our current president and much of the racial political motivation of his hardcore base, but like it or not they are a big part of our country. Writing them off as "the deplorables" makes matters worse, not better.

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Update on the JAHA paper. Obviously the woke mob did their work and the paper was retracted, but good for Dr. Wang to not agree with the retraction publicly



Also people really don’t like when you quote SDN lol

 

[scarbrtj]

Update on the JAHA paper. Obviously the woke mob did their work and the paper was retracted, but good for Dr. Wang to not agree with the retraction publicly



Also people really don’t like when you quote SDN lol

“The author’s institution, the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC), has notified the Editor‐in‐Chief that the article contains many misconceptions and misquotes and that together those inaccuracies, misstatements, and selective misreading of source materials ***strip*** the paper of its scientific validity.”

What a load of bull. Would put poster of Demi Moore’s “Striptease” here but it’d be offensive. So many mis-‘s they doth protest too much methinks.

 

[scarbrtj]

Taking a Step in the Right Direction for Radiation Oncology
IJROBP VOLUME 107, ISSUE 5, P1014-1015, AUGUST 01, 2020

"A relative lack of diversity remains a challenge within our specialty. Making Step 1 grading pass/fail also creates opportunities to attract underrepresented minorities and applicants from geographically underserved* areas, who may have been previously deterred by perceived high Step 1 score thresholds for residency... Radiation oncologists, especially those at US medical schools, must engage with the curriculum development process to advocate for improved preclinical exposure to radiation oncology and revitalize the residency selection process. These two recommendations will allow our field to take optimal advantage of this Step 1 paradigm shift to recruit medical students into the next generation with a focus on diversity and humanism."


* Why does radiation oncology want to attract medical students from underserved areas and train them in a specialty where there's a very low chance (maybe the specialty with the lowest chance of this) they can ever go back to their underserved area and practice?

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Taking a Step in the Right Direction for Radiation Oncology
IJROBP VOLUME 107, ISSUE 5, P1014-1015, AUGUST 01, 2020

"A relative lack of diversity remains a challenge within our specialty. Making Step 1 grading pass/fail also creates opportunities to attract underrepresented minorities and applicants from geographically underserved* areas, who may have been previously deterred by perceived high Step 1 score thresholds for residency... Radiation oncologists, especially those at US medical schools, must engage with the curriculum development process to advocate for improved preclinical exposure to radiation oncology and revitalize the residency selection process. These two recommendations will allow our field to take optimal advantage of this Step 1 paradigm shift to recruit medical students into the next generation with a focus on diversity and humanism."


* Why does radiation oncology want to attract medical students from underserved areas and train them in a specialty where there's a very low chance (maybe the specialty with the lowest chance of this) they can ever go back to their underserved area and practice?

Isn’t this a classic example of the bigotry of low expectations? You are a URM thus step 1 is too hard for you and you won’t be as competitive as Whites and who do well on it. I haven’t read the article but do they also say women can’t do as well? What about other oppressed groups based on orientation, religion, etc.?

Wouldn’t there be an uproar (rightfully so) if they said “Making Step 1 grading pass/fail also creates opportunities for women”?!?! Women need to have step 1 p/f to have equal outcomes with men?

 

[RickyScott]

Taking a Step in the Right Direction for Radiation Oncology
IJROBP VOLUME 107, ISSUE 5, P1014-1015, AUGUST 01, 2020

"A relative lack of diversity remains a challenge within our specialty. Making Step 1 grading pass/fail also creates opportunities to attract underrepresented minorities and applicants from geographically underserved* areas, who may have been previously deterred by perceived high Step 1 score thresholds for residency... Radiation oncologists, especially those at US medical schools, must engage with the curriculum development process to advocate for improved preclinical exposure to radiation oncology and revitalize the residency selection process. These two recommendations will allow our field to take optimal advantage of this Step 1 paradigm shift to recruit medical students into the next generation with a focus on diversity and humanism."


* Why does radiation oncology want to attract medical students from underserved areas and train them in a specialty where there's a very low chance (maybe the specialty with the lowest chance of this) they can ever go back to their underserved area and practice?

Let’s create unemployed URM so we can appear “woke.”
What does P/F have to do with radonc since will take every single us medstudent who applies anyway, it is completely irrelevant.

 

[medgator]

Taking a Step in the Right Direction for Radiation Oncology
IJROBP VOLUME 107, ISSUE 5, P1014-1015, AUGUST 01, 2020

"A relative lack of diversity remains a challenge within our specialty. Making Step 1 grading pass/fail also creates opportunities to attract underrepresented minorities and applicants from geographically underserved* areas, who may have been previously deterred by perceived high Step 1 score thresholds for residency... Radiation oncologists, especially those at US medical schools, must engage with the curriculum development process to advocate for improved preclinical exposure to radiation oncology and revitalize the residency selection process. These two recommendations will allow our field to take optimal advantage of this Step 1 paradigm shift to recruit medical students into the next generation with a focus on diversity and humanism."


* Why does radiation oncology want to attract medical students from underserved areas and train them in a specialty where there's a very low chance (maybe the specialty with the lowest chance of this) they can ever go back to their underserved area and practice?

Better chance of that happening though than ending up on the coasts or metro NE though

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Let’s create unemployed URM so we can appear “woke.”

Don’t worry at least when they continue to hire only the most accomplished and brightest while not caring at all about diversity quotas, they can hide behind these weak editorials and virtue signaling tweets.

Psst look at the ethnic make up of the authors... they forgot to include their token URM. Oopsies! 🤣

 

[RickyScott]

Wouldn’t surprise me if when radonc was competitive, it also discriminated against Asians.

Yale Discriminated by Race in Undergraduate Admissions, Justice Department Says

The Justice Department said it determined the university has discriminated against Asian-American and white applicants, issuing findings roughly two years after opening a probe into Yale’s admissions practices.

t.co

 

[medgator]

Wouldn’t surprise me if when radonc was competitive, it also discriminated against Asians.

Yale Discriminated by Race in Undergraduate Admissions, Justice Department Says

The Justice Department said it determined the university has discriminated against Asian-American and white applicants, issuing findings roughly two years after opening a probe into Yale’s admissions practices.

t.co

Could fill undergrad and med school classes with asian males all day. Is that good for society?

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Update on Dr. Wang. He has been removed as the fellowship director of the EP program at Pitt. It is so sad that it has come to this.

Request Rejected

utimes.pitt.edu

Basically, if you have even a well written paper that has been vetted by your peers in a top journal you will suffer professional consequences. I wouldn’t doubt for one minute ASTRO would apologize and excoriate anyone trying to have a fair debate about diversity.

What’s even more disturbing, see this Tweetorial about Dr. Wang’s situation. Fellow physicians and future colleagues (med students) who are not interested in debate. I hope this is only a small sliver of our colleagues, but frightening how much power they wield. If physicians who have a common tie of med school, residency, and bond of being healers become tribalistic and cannibalize each other - God help us. I know our already broken medical system cannot handle resent filled physician political tribalism.

 

[deleted480308]

Could fill undergrad and med school classes with asian males all day. Is that good for society?

Why would it be bad if they were the most qualified?

 

[deleted480308]

Update on Dr. Wang. He has been removed as the fellowship director of the EP program at Pitt. It is so sad that it has come to this.

Request Rejected

utimes.pitt.edu

Basically, if you have even a well written paper that has been vetted by your peers in a top journal you will suffer professional consequences. I wouldn’t doubt for one minute ASTRO would apologize and excoriate anyone trying to have a fair debate about diversity.

What’s even more disturbing, see this Tweetorial about Dr. Wang’s situation. Fellow physicians and future colleagues (med students) who are not interested in debate. I hope this is only a small sliver of our colleagues, but frightening how much power they wield. If physicians who have a common tie of med school, residency, and bond of being healers become tribalistic and cannibalize each other - God help us. I know our already broken medical system cannot handle resent filled physician political tribalism.

And that mob will take the job of anyone who speaks up openly to defend Dr. Wang while they congratulate themselves

 

[medgator]

Why would it be bad if they were the most qualified?

How do you define "most qualified"? An MCAT score?

 

[deleted480308]

How do you define "most qualified"? An MCAT score?

Or research or audition performance or step score... but you just said a bunch of asian males was bad, why would a group’s race/gender make them bad? Walk us through that

 

[medgator]

Or research or audition performance or step score... but you just said a bunch of asian males was bad, why would a group’s race/gender make them bad? Walk us through that

Never said bad, but nice try. Why can't med/undergrad classes mirror their percentages in society once they've met minimum competency benchmarks for admission?

 

[scarbrtj]

This was part of the concluding paragraph of that paper:

“We will have succeeded when we no longer think we require black doctors for black patients, chicano doctors for chicano patients, or gay doctors for gay patients, but rather good doctors for all patients. Evolution to strategies that are neutral to race and ethnicity is essential. Ultimately, all who aspire to a profession in medicine and cardiology must be assessed as individuals on the basis of their personal merits, not their racial and ethnic identities.”

 

[OTN]

This was part of the concluding paragraph of that paper:

“We will have succeeded when we no longer think we require black doctors for black patients, chicano doctors for chicano patients, or gay doctors for gay patients, but rather good doctors for all patients. Evolution to strategies that are neutral to race and ethnicity is essential. Ultimately, all who aspire to a profession in medicine and cardiology must be assessed as individuals on the basis of their personal merits, not their racial and ethnic identities.”

Can’t be a heretic when it comes to postmodernism and critical theory and not expect to be burned at the stake by the leaders of the religion, unfortunately.

It’s horrifying this is what “scholarship” has become. Journals bending to the twitter mob rather than continuing their pursuit of truth and objectivity.

 

[Lamount]

Never said bad, but nice try. Why can't med/undergrad classes mirror their percentages in society once they've met minimum competency benchmarks for admission?

This question gets to the heart of an inconsistency in how "equity" is often discussed. As I understand it, equity seeks to normalize opportunity by giving more to those who have less, whereas equality gives the same opportunity to all. Personally, I go back and forth on which I think is more ethical... but recently I have been favoring equity.

Nonetheless, even if more opportunity is given to those who are in greater need, it doesn't necessarily mean that the demographic breakdown of those accepted in college/medschool will mirror that of society... because not ever person, race, group, religion, nationality, places the same value on going to med school.

For example, let's assume that a OB/GYN residency gave male applicants the same opportunities as female applicants in ranking their match list... do you think the breakdown will end up being 50:50? I don't.

In much of America, children grow up with a major emphasis on sports achievements. Contrarily, those in Asian or Eastern European immigrant communities emphasize math/science achievements. Neither is right or wrong... but, even in an equitable system, these preferences will naturally skew the populations of those who go to college on sports scholarships vs. those who excel in a pre-med curriculum.

**edited for grammatical mistakes.

 

[scarbrtj]

I wouldn’t doubt for one minute ASTRO would apologize and excoriate anyone trying to have a fair debate about diversity.

I wish I had the psychiatric vocabulistic armamentarium to speak cogently about this phenomenon. But I find the "hate" directed at Wang, and other Wang-like people/situations, to arise from a very self-interested place as opposed to a concern-about-others place. It starts from an "you offended me" mindset. How dare you offend me?! It's what Dave Chappelle called a "bitter spirit." It appears the tweet below was what started it all?

 

[Music Man Stan]

Never said bad, but nice try. Why can't med/undergrad classes mirror their percentages in society once they've met minimum competency benchmarks for admission?

I think from an economic standpoint it's inefficient to attempt to mirror societal demographics in higher education.

What happens if I proposed that we mirrored race in say... Pro Football. Let's make sure that 5% of all pro-Football athletes are Asian and no more than 15% are black. Maybe let's do the same in Pro-Basketball. We would have some pretty s**ty Pro-Football and Pro-Basketball to watch.

How about if I proposed that we should have equal numbers of men and women as ObGyns? (From my 4 seconds of Google it looks like 17% of the 2017 class was male.)

Some people will naturally be better at doing job "X" than another, whether it's a cultural or genetic upbringing. From my point of view, the cost to society to artificially balance gender and race in every type of job effectively lowers the overall performance of that industry as a whole.

If you think about why the Asian representation in higher education is absurdly high here, you have to remember that India and China are the most populous country in the world. America granted highly qualified Indian/Chinese people visas/citizenship here for work and education and these children of India/China's elite obviously do very well in school here. When you've artificially selected to only bring in the most educated people of a certain country, they're going to out-compete the general population.

I would elaborate into more detail but would have fears that I'd be kicked off of this board for not being woke :-(.