Daycares Open During COVID, But Schools Can't. Huh?

Birdstrike

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Did your state close daycares during COVID-19? Mine never did. In fact, we don't have a single death in any child 10 or under after months of a pandemic, in my whole state.

Maybe the EM/Peds docs on this forum can chime in: Are you seeing clusters of children critically ill with COVID that they got from daycare? In daycare workers?

Currently, there are people strongly pushing to keep schools closed, or so restricted they can't function, at a time daycares have been and will remain wide open.

Does this make sense?
 

GeneralVeers

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Well if I'm a teacher, and can get my full salary for staying home and doing minimal work, while having to time to pursue other sources of income, I'd do it too.

There is no incentive for teachers to return, and every incentive for them to resist reopening efforts. Unions make it impossible to lay off or threaten teachers who refuse (irrationally) to go back to work.

Yet another argument for abolition of the public school system, and implementation of universal charter system (like Sweden has).
 
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xaelia

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Our daycare closed, but then re-opened with limited capacity, temperature checks, mask wearing, etc.

There's no denying it's a risk, primarily to the parents & staff.

We took the risk. Just means we ourselves have to assume we could be unwitting agents at any time and reduce our own bubble, wear masks/wash hands to protect others frequently.
 
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GeneralVeers

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Our daycare closed, but then re-opened with limited capacity, temperature checks, mask wearing, etc.

There's no denying it's a risk, primarily to the parents & staff.

We took the risk. Just means we ourselves have to assume we could be unwitting agents at any time and reduce our own bubble, wear masks/wash hands to protect others frequently.

What risk?
 
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deleted480308

I’ve seen a few kids with some pretty significant mis-c post covid. It sucks hard.

keeping daycares open but not schools is more economics than medicine I think, those parents need to work and it’s harder to get someone else to watch your baby
 
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Birdstrike

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There's no denying it's a risk, primarily to the parents & staff.
Is it more risk than doing all the things the parents, daycare workers (and teachers) would be doing if their jobs were shut down?


Going to the grocery store, touching packages touched by store workers, or putting an apple in your mouth that was sneezed on by coronustomers?

Touching a gas pump or credit card terminal?

Picking up an amazon package touched by the UPS guy?

Taking bags of carryout food through a drive through window from a 16-year-old with a runny nose?


I posted data from Europe who's had schools and daycare facilities open, showing no increased risk. Is there data showing there is?
 
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xaelia

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I posted data from Europe who's had schools and daycare facilities open, showing no increased risk.


I also have an internal e-mail from a Houston daycare that is reporting escalating cases across their facilities - I posted it to my Twitter, but I can’t flip back over to get the link at the moment. Wife’s friend forwarded it to me.

I have to say shopping and ordering food and other basic life activities can be performed with less risk of infection than all day in an enclosed space with children.

Citing how things developed or reopened in another country may not be generalizable to us.
 

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Per your anecdote/article that’s the “first cluster in the nation” with no proof they got it at the daycare, and no proof community spread in that area wouldn’t have led to them all getting it anyways. Also notable, zero mentions of any bad outcomes among those infected.
 
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Birdstrike

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I have to say shopping and ordering food and other basic life activities can be performed with less risk of infection than all day in an enclosed space with children.
We managed to get 30,000 cases per day while the whole country was “locked down” and supposedly doing only those “low risk” things. If daycares, which were open the whole time, were the true high risk activity why did it take 4 months to notice the first outbreak?

It makes no sense.
 
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deleted1005514


I also have an internal e-mail from a Houston daycare that is reporting escalating cases across their facilities - I posted it to my Twitter, but I can’t flip back over to get the link at the moment. Wife’s friend forwarded it to me.

I have to say shopping and ordering food and other basic life activities can be performed with less risk of infection than all day in an enclosed space with children.

Citing how things developed or reopened in another country may not be generalizable to us.

Not sure how much I would trust ordering food. I was at a restaurant this weekend watching Door Dash drivers come in constantly to pick up food. Only one of them was wearing a mask, no one was wearing gloves, but the restaurant staff handing the bags out were wearing cotton masks. The delivery table wasn’t cleaned one time while we were there...over an hour. Then they drive away in their personal vehicles, which can have anyone in any health state riding with them.
 
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Birdstrike

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Not sure how much I would trust ordering food. I was at a restaurant this weekend watching Door Dash drivers come in constantly to pick up food. Only one of them was wearing a mask, no one was wearing gloves, but the restaurant staff handing the bags out were wearing cotton masks. The delivery table wasn’t cleaned one time while we were there...over an hour. Then they drive away in their personal vehicles, which can have anyone in any health state riding with them.
Yes. All these "safe" activities people were doing while supposedly “locking down” brought us 30,000 new cases per day. Now they’re going back and magically blaming daycares, based on anecdote, as justification to keep schools closed.

It’s absurd. Trust me, if daycares being open were ever the threat they’re now claiming the are, the panic police would have been all over 3 months ago. But they sent their kids, and “accepted the risk,” albeit infinitesimally small. But now we can’t send kids back to school in August, “because any risk is too great.” Oh, and because staying at home while getting paid is too frickin’ awesome. While you order food delivered by a runny-nosed 16-year-old without a mask.
 
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Jabbed

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This has happened zero times in the four months daycare facilities have been opened throughout a 4 month pandemic in a country of 330,000,000 people. What makes you think this is ever going to happen?
Afaik there's no other respiratory virus that is only transmissible among adults. I doubt the underlying pathophysiologic principles of that assertion.

What happened to you keeping tally of the "lives saved" due to covid restrictions?
 

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Except we have a fair bit of evidence saying young children aren't really spreading this
I would say that there's a fair bit of evidence that children usually don't contract severe disease. I would say that there's a fair bit of debate on whether or not children are transmitting the virus.
 

Birdstrike

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Afaik there's no other respiratory virus that is only transmissible among adults. I doubt the underlying pathophysiologic principles of that assertion.
I never claimed COVID spreads "only among adults." It spreads among everyone, doing anything that resembles normal living. That's the whole point.

What happened to you keeping tally of the "lives saved" due to covid restrictions?
2.2 million - 130,000 = 2.07 million
Pretty good, right?
Now it's time to get kids back in school in the Fall.
 
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xaelia

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Not sure how much I would trust ordering food. I was at a restaurant this weekend watching Door Dash drivers come in constantly to pick up food. Only one of them was wearing a mask, no one was wearing gloves, but the restaurant staff handing the bags out were wearing cotton masks. The delivery table wasn’t cleaned one time while we were there...over an hour. Then they drive away in their personal vehicles, which can have anyone in any health state riding with them.

I said "can be" – take out has extra touches and a risk. You can wipe down your food and wash your hands. I think you're trying to argue take out food confers the same risk as working in a daycare, and I don't think this is a winning play.
 

xaelia

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Per your anecdote/article that’s the “first cluster in the nation” with no proof they got it at the daycare, and no proof community spread in that area wouldn’t have led to them all getting it anyways. Also notable, zero mentions of any bad outcomes among those infected.

Hey, you said there was no increased risk.

There was daycare transmission in Colorado in March. This is a cluster being tracked by the Oregon Health Department, localized around a daycare. You can minge around it as much as you want, but occam's razor says the simple explanation is true: indoor close contacts with the sort of hygiene you expect from kids is the major point of dissemination. Oregon doesn't have much in the community right now.

As for outcomes, this is a pretty young population. Add this up to 200 contacts including parents and grandparents, you might get 1 to die with a 0.5% IFR. Almost all these stories will lack bad outcomes.
 
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Birdstrike

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Extremely Low Infection Rates In Child Care During COVID-19

687 daycare facilities stayed entirely open during the entire pandemic with >20,000 students and >7,000 staff.

Children: Only 0.14% were infected (30 out of >20,000) which means 99.86% did not get COVID-19
Staff: Only 0.9% were infected (67 out >7,000) which means 99.1% did not get COVID-19

No deaths were reported. I'm not sure if that's because there were none or because they didn't collect that information. But even if you calculate the expected number you might have, with an infection fatality rate of 1% (which per CDC is likely lower), you'd expect 0.3 child deaths (0.01 x 30) and 0.67 staff deaths (0.009 x 67). That's 1/3 of a kid, and 2/3 of a staffer, in the child care centers that stayed 100% open throughout the COVID-19 pandemic so far.

Raw report: Brown University, Emily Oster
CNN write up with link to data.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr

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I would say that there's a fair bit of evidence that children usually don't contract severe disease. I would say that there's a fair bit of debate on whether or not children are transmitting the virus.
Go remind yourself what the 2009 flu did to children and compare that to now.

As for transmission:



 
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Birdstrike

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you might get
Rather than guessing, let's look at the actual numbers (I think you missed this one two posts above)

Infection Rates In Child Care Facilities During COVID-19

687 daycare facilities have been open during the entire pandemic with >20,000 students and >7,000 staff. So far,

Children: Only 0.14% or 30, were infected out of >20,000, which means 99.86% did not get COVID-19
Staff: Only 0.9% or 67 were infected out >7,000, which means 99.1% did not get COVID-19

No deaths were reported. Even if you calculate the expected number you might have, with an infection fatality rate of 1% (which per CDC is likely lower), you'd expect 0.3 child deaths, and 0.67 staff deaths. That's less than a person, in the child care centers that stayed 100% open throughout the COVID-19 pandemic so far.

Here's the raw report: Brown University, Emily Oster
Here's the CNN write up with the link to it.
 
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xaelia

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“The Arizona Department of Health reported nearly 4,900 new coronavirus cases and 88 new deaths on Wednesday, a record single-day jump in both grim markers”


bUt wHErE ARe tHE deAThS
 
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SeekerOfTheTree

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I gotta work, grocery gender binary person has to work, mail individual has to work, teachers need to work. I suffer so the world must suffer to. I am tired of all these Facebook warriors that can sit at home and get paid while I go to work. It's not fair. I might die too from this but I show up. Wear a mask and wash your hands. I can't get grown men to wash their hands in a gym. This guy almost beat me for telling him to wash his hands after he went piss and was walking out of the locker room. People are dumb and I want them all to suffer with me.
 
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Birdstrike

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I gotta work, grocery gender binary person has to work, mail individual has to work, teachers need to work. I suffer so the world must suffer to. I am tired of all these Facebook warriors that can sit at home and get paid while I go to work. It's not fair. I might die too from this but I show up. Wear a mask and wash your hands. I can't get grown men to wash their hands in a gym. This guy almost beat me for telling him to wash his hands after he went piss and was walking out of the locker room. People are dumb and I want them all to suffer with me.
You get a Gold Star for honesty.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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This guy almost beat me for telling him to wash his hands after he went piss and was walking out of the locker room

He just took a piss? I’m not sure about you, but my situation is way cleaner than anything in that bathroom I’d have to touch to wash and dry my hands.
 

GeneralVeers

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He just took a piss? I’m not sure about you, but my situation is way cleaner than anything in that bathroom I’d have to touch to wash and dry my hands.

I agree. Sometimes don't wash my hands after the bathroom if there are no hands-free fixtures. I guarantee anything on me that I touch is cleaner than what's on the faucets. Also toilet paper on the door handle on the way out. Businesses who don't provide a garbage can near the door for this purpose, will have the paper towel thrown on the floor.
 
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deleted480308

I agree. Sometimes don't wash my hands after the bathroom if there are no hands-free fixtures. I guarantee anything on me that I touch is cleaner than what's on the faucets. Also toilet paper on the door handle on the way out. Businesses who don't provide a garbage can near the door for this purpose, will have the paper towel thrown on the floor.
I love the little foot pulls some places have on the door
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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I agree. Sometimes don't wash my hands after the bathroom if there are no hands-free fixtures. I guarantee anything on me that I touch is cleaner than what's on the faucets. Also toilet paper on the door handle on the way out. Businesses who don't provide a garbage can near the door for this purpose, will have the paper towel thrown on the floor.

I always wash my hands after I poop, but most of the time when I pee, the only things my hands touch are my pants and my situation. Both of those are cleaner than anything in the bathroom.
 
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GeneralVeers

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I always wash my hands after I poop, but most of the time when I pee, the only things my hands touch are my pants and my situation. Both of those are cleaner than anything in the bathroom.

The one lasting benefit from the COIVD hysteria is hand gel everywhere. Now it's a restaurants and supermarkets. Vegas buffets never used to have hand sanitizer (which I thought was bizarre). I hope that trend lasts forever, while we ditch the masks at some point.
 
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SeekerOfTheTree

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He just took a piss? I’m not sure about you, but my situation is way cleaner than anything in that bathroom I’d have to touch to wash and dry my hands.
I know you love your junk and don't mind touching it but I will be honest I don't want to touch the equipment your junky hands have touched afterwards. Just my personal preference. This is why I don't shake hands at all. Then we can talk about the splash back from the urinal. We can talk about how HPV even survives on fomites including our ultrasound machines...but this would become a Seinfeld episode then.

If we can't wash our hands after taking a simple piss because our golden genitals are clean then we have no hope
 
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thegenius

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The one lasting benefit from the COIVD hysteria is hand gel everywhere. Now it's a restaurants and supermarkets. Vegas buffets never used to have hand sanitizer (which I thought was bizarre). I hope that trend lasts forever, while we ditch the masks at some point.

:unsure:
People are getting hospitalized touching those door handles and buffet ladels, right?
 
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DoctwoB

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I’m pretty much on the mandatory universal masks and no large gathering bandwagon, but Schools and Daycares need to be open. They are both essential parts of the economy in that they allow productive adults to work, even if only from home in addition to the benefits offered to the kids. The one saving grace of COVID is much less effect on kids, both in symptoms and attack rate. Is there risk of spread through schools or to teachers? Of course. But there is no data that teachers are at higher risk then any other essential worker and of course precautions should be taken. Almost anything else (restaurants, retail, etc) should be shut down before schools are shut down.
 
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DoctwoB

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What evidence was used to create this? Ridiculous

I don’t know about that. All it basically saying is indirect contact < small crowd <large crowd, outside < inside and going from there, which does have evidence. Of course there is no data for that level of granularity that a bar is worse then a crowded church service or what mot, it’s meant to be a relative guide.
 
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