Dear AMA, I quit!

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Oh really, so I go through teh same med school, same residency, yet I am free riding. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. That is NOT a free ride, and no I am not bashing those who want to make money, I do too. But demanding that you make excessive money is greed. And that financial security won't disappear--you appear to only listen to propaganda. I suggest you read my last response to cardiac. I also suggest you stop listening to whomever you're listening to for your political news. I guess i have to type this again for the second time in ten minutes--I THINK DOCTOR'S SHOULD HAVE HIGH SALARIES, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PUBLIC GOOD. THEY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
My point was that without "greedy" doctors demanding a reasonable salary reflective of their training and demand (as in supply and demand), other greedy people like insurance, hospital and government middle managers will continue to cut into doctor's salaries to fill theirs. This will particularly become a problem when you take out the market. Without the market, how can you so matter-of-factly say that the financial security won't disappear? See Japan!

I suggest you get a brighter bulb.
 
Agreed. I enjoyed Things Fall Apart and I'm glad we both see the irony. I only mentioned it because most people associate Kurtz with "Apocalypse Now" instead of the book. I wasn't calling you out.



I never said that those chasing money are harder workers, just that money was an additional incentive. If, as you recommend, you read my past posts, you'll see plenty of arguments for why high physician pay is good, but I'll explain again here. If you add the incentive of money to the incentive of medicine (composed of altruism, service, societal respecet, etc. that comes with being a doctor), you increase the total incentive to go into the field. Some people value money more, some value the other things more, but however it stacks up, if there is more total incentive to be in the field there will be more competition to enter it. Thus, with more competition for medical school from more total incentive, you will have better doctors in the long run.

If, as you say, a doctor ends up not in love with his work, one of three things will happen. Either, he will do less work and earn less money, continue to do the work because the love of money is enough for him, or figure out a way to change the work so that he likes it again. If the first situation is true or his work suffers, he will get less money and then another doctor will come in, see the opportunity, and take the patients and money that he neglected to keep up. Either way, the system (competition) is a self-correcting one: if the doctor finds that the burdens of the job outweighs the incentives, something will change, but if the incentives are high this will happen rarely and will be quickly fixed.

Going to your examples, when I worked in a restaurant, if somebody was being lazy and not working hard, they either made less money in tips or were fired. The incentive of making more money (and not getting fired) will outweigh the desire to slack off or you will find another job. If service suffers from time to time, this is usually because of a lack of competition for the jobs. Next, the example of NFL players is a bit of a stretch and can't be applied to the market as a whole. Yes, some players in the top 2% of wage earners will sacrifice for a team to win a championship (which notably is not an altruistic sacrifice, but a self-serving one), but when do the mid- or low-salaried players do this? Entire teams don't take a pay cut to win a championship, nor would the entirety of NFL Players, if the pay off was just to raise the level of play a bit (which is actually backwards - it would diminish it). It's a bit hard then to stretch this argument to saying that all doctors should take a cut to raise the level of care.



If more people went into medicine for altruistic reasons, the quality of care would decrease. There simply isn't enough altruism for it to outweigh money, and without the incentive of economic gain, altruism alone isn't going to raise the incentives enough that the most qualified and smartest go into this field over any other field. Again, I contend that if we want to keep the field of medicine strong, we need the best and brightest people in it. If this means transitioning some primary care positions to others, then let's do it. If we have higher quality care overall and higher quality physicians overseeing the primary caregivers (be they NPs or others), the quality of our primary care will increase (or stay the same at worst) while the quality of our specialty care will go through the roof. (again, see my old posts or pm me if the incentives part of this doesn't make sense)

Did you read the Gawande article linked in that blog post?

What you're describing is where a market functions "properly;" financial incentives reward efficiciency. Gawande's article is all about how medical markets in this country do not work properly. Doctors are not rewarded financally for the quality or efficiency of the care they provide, i.e., how healthy they can make their patients and at what cost, but simply by how much, and how costly, treatment they give - for better or worse healthcare outcomes, often for worse.

If thats true, your argument about money being a great incentive doesnt really work. The question isn't just, how much do doctors get paid; its - what are they getting paid for?

Edit: Hey, this argument was made from the right in today's Washington Post. What do you know. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy.../06/14/AR2009061402444.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
 
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Did you read the Gawande article linked in that blog post?

What you're describing is where a market functions "properly;" financial incentives reward efficiciency. Gawande's article is all about how medical markets in this country do not work properly. Doctors are not rewarded financally for the quality or efficiency of the care they provide, i.e., how healthy they can make their patients and at what cost, but simply by how much, and how costly, treatment they give - for better or worse healthcare outcomes, often for worse.

If thats true, your argument about money being a great incentive doesnt really work. The question isn't just, how much do doctors get paid; its - what are they getting paid for?
It's not a binary situation (McAllen versus Mayo Clinic). Gawande focused on two extremes. The typical situation in America is probably somewhere in between (like in El Paso), and farther away from McAllen than you think. But what happens if we add a subsidized public plan based on Medicare rates? Then we will have a situation where either the public plan falls apart due to lack of funding or we have no functioning market at all except for the very rich.

The market isn't perfect, but what happens when you don't have one at all? And exactly how do you value health care outcomes?
 
Did you read the Gawande article linked in that blog post?

What you're describing is where a market functions "properly;" financial incentives reward efficiciency. Gawande's article is all about how medical markets in this country do not work properly. Doctors are not rewarded financally for the quality or efficiency of the care they provide, i.e., how healthy they can make their patients and at what cost, but simply by how much, and how costly, treatment they give - for better or worse healthcare outcomes, often for worse.

If thats true, your argument about money being a great incentive doesnt really work. The question isn't just, how much do doctors get paid; its - what are they getting paid for?
How exactly would you measure good health outcomes though? And if better health outcomes are an incentive, who's to say that physicians won't preferably treat patients who are healthier and are more likely to have a good outcome rather than, for example, a non-compliant patient or one with multiple complex morbidities?

I mean, in theory that sounds like a great idea to reward doctors whose patients have better outcomes, but how exactly would you implement that in the real world?
 
My point was that without "greedy" doctors demanding a reasonable salary reflective of their training and demand (as in supply and demand), other greedy people like insurance, hospital and government middle managers will continue to cut into doctor's salaries to fill theirs.

I don't think many people would argue against fair compensation, the question is how you go about obtaining it. If we allow ourselves to become all about the money, then we have obviated the integrity of our profession and the respect that comes with it, and thus lost the most important leverage we have in this whole mess. When the public at large sees us as no better than the insurance companies, well, then we're really screwed.

womp said:
This will particularly become a problem when you take out the market.

There hasn't been a free market in medicine since Dr. Sidney Garfield built Contractors General Hospital in the 1930s. Look it up.
 
How exactly would you measure good health outcomes though? And if better health outcomes are an incentive, who's to say that physicians won't preferably treat patients who are healthier and are more likely to have a good outcome rather than, for example, a non-compliant patient or one with multiple complex morbidities?

I mean, in theory that sounds like a great idea to reward doctors whose patients have better outcomes, but how exactly would you implement that in the real world?

Excellent questions. hopefully some people in congress will ask them. I dont have the answers, didnt seem like Gawande necissarily did either. His example of the mayo clinic, it seemed like doctors who were paid a flat salary, not based on fee-per-service, were giving good care, or better then in most of the country at least. Why? I dont know ... maybe altruism, maybe something else, I don't know, I wish he would have looked into that more ...

But none of that changes that the simplistic - more money for doctors equals better care argument is flawed.
 
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It's not a binary situation (McAllen versus Mayo Clinic). Gawande focused on two extremes. The typical situation in America is probably somewhere in between (like in El Paso), and farther away from McAllen than you think. But what happens if we add a subsidized public plan based on Medicare rates? Then we will have a situation where either the public plan falls apart due to lack of funding or we have no functioning market at all except for the very rich.

The market isn't perfect, but what happens when you don't have one at all? And exactly how do you value health care outcomes?

I would not think its a good idea to just add a subsidized plan based on medicare rates. But i dont see why it would be any worse then the current system ... Maybe you dont value health care outcomes, you enforce compartive effectiveness research guidelines on doctors. I'm sure that presents its own challenges (i'll know better in five to 12 years!) but maybe thats the way to go, and would make a public plan better then whats out there now.
 
Oh really, so I go through teh same med school, same residency, yet I am free riding. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. That is NOT a free ride, and no I am not bashing those who want to make money, I do too. But demanding that you make excessive money is greed. And that financial security won't disappear--you appear to only listen to propaganda. I suggest you read my last response to cardiac. I also suggest you stop listening to whomever you're listening to for your political news. I guess i have to type this again for the second time in ten minutes--I THINK DOCTOR'S SHOULD HAVE HIGH SALARIES, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PUBLIC GOOD. THEY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

Doctors arent asking for more money they just dont want their payments cut anymore. Doctors taking a pay cut doesnt help the public, like its been said before their payment is such a small part of overall costs that any cuts arent gonna make that much of a difference except to alienate providers.

I would not think its a good idea to just add a subsidized plan based on medicare rates. But i dont see why it would be any worse then the current system ... Maybe you dont value health care outcomes, you enforce compartive effectiveness research guidelines on doctors. I'm sure that presents its own challenges (i'll know better in five to 12 years!) but maybe thats the way to go, and would make a public plan better then whats out there now.

Doctors often lose money on medicare patients and as a result many doctors dont want to take on more of them. hopefully you do figure out a bettter system, or somebody does.
 
Oh really, so I go through teh same med school, same residency, yet I am free riding. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. That is NOT a free ride, and no I am not bashing those who want to make money, I do too. But demanding that you make excessive money is greed. And that financial security won't disappear--you appear to only listen to propaganda. I suggest you read my last response to cardiac. I also suggest you stop listening to whomever you're listening to for your political news. I guess i have to type this again for the second time in ten minutes--I THINK DOCTOR'S SHOULD HAVE HIGH SALARIES, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PUBLIC GOOD. THEY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

Define excessive. Define how excessive should be determined. Define who is more qualified to determine excessive than the market. Have you just advocated price controls?
 
My point was that without "greedy" doctors demanding a reasonable salary reflective of their training and demand (as in supply and demand), other greedy people like insurance, hospital and government middle managers will continue to cut into doctor's salaries to fill theirs. This will particularly become a problem when you take out the market. Without the market, how can you so matter-of-factly say that the financial security won't disappear? See Japan!

I suggest you get a brighter bulb.

No doubt those groups you mention drive the prices more up more than anything. In fact, I agreed to that above. Apparently, you only read what you want to respond to. Your lamp not bright enough buddy? I don't think what Obama wants to do is destroy market forces. So your argument about taking it out is irrelevant.
 
Doctors arent asking for more money they just dont want their payments cut anymore. Doctors taking a pay cut doesnt help the public, like its been said before their payment is such a small part of overall costs that any cuts arent gonna make that much of a difference except to alienate providers.

First, I agreed above that doctor's salaries are not the problem. Second, being cut any more? The average md still makes more than triple the average income of a family. Right or wrong, when people see that the AMA demands no more salary cuts in the middle of an economic downturn it feeds the perception that doctor's are greedy. That alienates the public from a profession that is built on compassion. If physicians want their patients to trust them it is important to maintain that trust and work to that end. Why do you think there has been this turn toward homepathic remedies over the last couple years? It is a combination of distrust of the motives of the medical profession and rising health care costs. Should physicians bend over to satisfy the public? Of course not, but they also shouldn't make every argument begin and end with well, we're not taking a pay cut.

I know there are many doctor's are not greedy--probably most, but there are some that are. Many of you seem to take joy in putting words in my posts I did not type, or building straw men to make me look like a lunatic socialist. I'm not. I think the free market presents problems that can be solved with some regulation, but that a planned economy would fail. But it is time for everyone to start looking past their self interest. This includes both physicians and the public. No, health care should not be free for all, but it is wrong to exclude people based on cost.

Before anyone answers this, read this: I do not think all doctors are greedy. I do not think that physician salaries are out of control. I'm not bothered by those who want financial security, I want it too, but I am offended when people say that some people don't deserve health care because of x reason. Or that well, some people just aren't getting it because we can't find the money. If it means cutting other programs, fine. If it means REASONABLE salary cuts, fine. If it means a percentage point or two bump in taxes, fine. But let's not pretend that I am arguing to put MD's into poverty so that you can go on some Rush style masturbatory rant so you can feel good that you defended capitalism today. Just remember, I am trying to be a doctor too, and despite what [wrong] impression you may get, I want to provide for my family as well. Also remember that somewhere near where you are typing your posts, there is a father and a mother trying to figure out how to pay rent, put food on the table, and make sure their kids are healthy, just like you.
 
Define excessive. Define how excessive should be determined. Define who is more qualified to determine excessive than the market. Have you just advocated price controls?

I understand excessive is relative, but the average md salary is over three times the mean family income. No, I am not advocating price controls at all, thank you for asking before accusing. And for the third time today, I don't think physicians are overpaid, with exception of maybe some of the sub specialties that cater to the wealthy. But even then that's not the argument I am making. I was merely questioning whether a profession built on compassion can enrich themselves at the expense of the lower end of the economic bracket. This isn't a comment on all physicians, but some pre meds on this board who have expressed the attitude that it's okay if people go without health care so they can make lots of money. And sorry to break this to those folks, but you can have quite a nice life on 150-200k. Even with the loans you'll take out. It's called living within your means, something plenty of you have advocated on other threads under the name "personal responsibility."

I think we can fix the system without salaries being cut. However by the same token. Who is qualified to determine what a doctor should be paid? Your argument works both ways. . .If you leave it up to doctors, it becomes the genie in the lamp. But it is not for the usfg to decide either.
 
The Money

health_care_lobbying.png


This thread got me to wondering who's got the most pull. The AMA % surprised me. They may be 'quiet' but they appear to be very fluent in another language. Props to The Sunshine Foundation for the graph.

Edit: OMGs re-read the table. This is Q1 of 2009 expenses only.
 
First, I agreed above that doctor's salaries are not the problem. Second, being cut any more? The average md still makes more than triple the average income of a family. Right or wrong, when people see that the AMA demands no more salary cuts in the middle of an economic downturn it feeds the perception that doctor's are greedy. That alienates the public from a profession that is built on compassion. If physicians want their patients to trust them it is important to maintain that trust and work to that end. Why do you think there has been this turn toward homepathic remedies over the last couple years? It is a combination of distrust of the motives of the medical profession and rising health care costs. Should physicians bend over to satisfy the public? Of course not, but they also shouldn't make every argument begin and end with well, we're not taking a pay cut.

I know there are many doctor's are not greedy--probably most, but there are some that are. Many of you seem to take joy in putting words in my posts I did not type, or building straw men to make me look like a lunatic socialist. I'm not. I think the free market presents problems that can be solved with some regulation, but that a planned economy would fail. But it is time for everyone to start looking past their self interest. This includes both physicians and the public. No, health care should not be free for all, but it is wrong to exclude people based on cost.

Before anyone answers this, read this: I do not think all doctors are greedy. I do not think that physician salaries are out of control. I'm not bothered by those who want financial security, I want it too, but I am offended when people say that some people don't deserve health care because of x reason. Or that well, some people just aren't getting it because we can't find the money. If it means cutting other programs, fine. If it means REASONABLE salary cuts, fine. If it means a percentage point or two bump in taxes, fine. But let's not pretend that I am arguing to put MD's into poverty so that you can go on some Rush style masturbatory rant so you can feel good that you defended capitalism today. Just remember, I am trying to be a doctor too, and despite what [wrong] impression you may get, I want to provide for my family as well. Also remember that somewhere near where you are typing your posts, there is a father and a mother trying to figure out how to pay rent, put food on the table, and make sure their kids are healthy, just like you.

One troubling aspect of the arguments taking place, is that many seem to feel that capitalism/free markets have failed in the healthcare industry. This is actually untrue and a misrepresentation of the facts. We have not had a "free market" in healthcare for quite some time. Starting in the 1970s with ERISA and the HMO act, which unfairly advantaged those government sponsored companies against the private insurers, and moving onto MCAID/MCARE which artificially set reimbursement rates below what the market is willing to accept. This is evidenced by the fact that doctors with a high load of MCARE/MCAID patients LOSE MONEY.

In addition, the fact that it is illegal for Doctors to advertise their prices, or that insurance companies and doctors both benefit from their prices being kept a secret, further hinders the ability of the free market to drive prices down. If we had full transparency in pricing, patients(customers) would be able to shop around for the best deal. Take for instance this article from Forbes which notes that:

But there's a problem. Consumers can't shop around for inexpensive health care unless price information is readily available, just like it is for everything else in the economy. "We know the price of everything we buy, but when we need something that's really important, we're clueless," says Regina Herzlinger, a professor at Harvard Business School and a scholar at the Manhattan Institute.
The status quo benefits physicians as well. If consumers don't know what charge to expect when they go to the doctor's office, they won't complain when a simple, 15-minute office visit is billed as a 30-minute consultation.

Addressing your post specifically. You speak about "REASONABLE" cuts, or a "REASONABLE" income. But whos definition of reasonable are you operating on? Your own definition? You seem to think that it is the governments responsibility to rectify the inequities in income across socioeconomic status's, when it certainly is not. The government of the United States, and the mandate under which it works via the Constitution, makes no guarantee to the citizens that when a group of people make "3x the average income of regular Americans" that Uncle Sam is going to step in and punish those people for their success. The government exists to keep order, defend the country, and enforce contracts.

You are advocating price controls (as someone previously mentioned). "REASONABLE" is a highly subjective word, and while you may feel that $50,000/yr is reasonable, or maybe $100,000/yr is reasonable, another person may feel that $350,000/yr is reasonable. Who decides this, and what criteria do they use for "reasonable?"

MCARE/MCAID have not increased reimbursements since 2001. Do you think that its REASONABLE for someone to have not gotten a rise in 8 years? If you put that fact against inflation and increases in the cost of living then you are even further behind than originally estimated. It should be no wonder doctors dont want to take on MCARE/MCAID patients, and now they are faced with the possibility of 44 million new insureds under the same reimbursement criteria? It should be no wonder that the LOBBY GROUP for physicians is up in arms.

I think your intentions are excellent Col Kurtz, and I respect the passion with which you speak about your ideals. However, its my opinion that socialization of the healthcare industry is not the answer, and I believe that if we REALLY allowed a free market to exist in healthcare, it would go far to attenuate many of the problems that we both agree exist within the system.
 
One troubling aspect of the arguments taking place, is that many seem to feel that capitalism/free markets have failed in the healthcare industry. This is actually untrue and a misrepresentation of the facts. We have not had a "free market" in healthcare for quite some time. Starting in the 1970s with ERISA and the HMO act, which unfairly advantaged those government sponsored companies against the private insurers, and moving onto MCAID/MCARE which artificially set reimbursement rates below what the market is willing to accept. This is evidenced by the fact that doctors with a high load of MCARE/MCAID patients LOSE MONEY.

In addition, the fact that it is illegal for Doctors to advertise their prices, or that insurance companies and doctors both benefit from their prices being kept a secret, further hinders the ability of the free market to drive prices down. If we had full transparency in pricing, patients(customers) would be able to shop around for the best deal. Take for instance this article from Forbes which notes that:



Addressing your post specifically. You speak about "REASONABLE" cuts, or a "REASONABLE" income. But whos definition of reasonable are you operating on? Your own definition? You seem to think that it is the governments responsibility to rectify the inequities in income across socioeconomic status's, when it certainly is not. The government of the United States, and the mandate under which it works via the Constitution, makes no guarantee to the citizens that when a group of people make "3x the average income of regular Americans" that Uncle Sam is going to step in and punish those people for their success. The government exists to keep order, defend the country, and enforce contracts.

You are advocating price controls (as someone previously mentioned). "REASONABLE" is a highly subjective word, and while you may feel that $50,000/yr is reasonable, or maybe $100,000/yr is reasonable, another person may feel that $350,000/yr is reasonable. Who decides this, and what criteria do they use for "reasonable?"

MCARE/MCAID have not increased reimbursements since 2001. Do you think that its REASONABLE for someone to have not gotten a rise in 8 years? If you put that fact against inflation and increases in the cost of living then you are even further behind than originally estimated. It should be no wonder doctors dont want to take on MCARE/MCAID patients, and now they are faced with the possibility of 44 million new insureds under the same reimbursement criteria? It should be no wonder that the LOBBY GROUP for physicians is up in arms.

I think your intentions are excellent Col Kurtz, and I respect the passion with which you speak about your ideals. However, its my opinion that socialization of the healthcare industry is not the answer, and I believe that if we REALLY allowed a free market to exist in healthcare, it would go far to attenuate many of the problems that we both agree exist within the system.

Thank you for the respect. No, I don't think price controls are right, i think i am more speaking about the mindset of some of the posters here more than any policy. Someone floated the idea of insurance vouchers, something I think should be explored. I think the free market could solve much of the problem, provided the government is able to punish those that exploit it. Now, I agree reasonable is subjective as well. But while there is no standard way to define it, I think almost everyone thinks they should be paid more than they probably deserve. However, I don't think we should base any policy on something that subjective.

I don't see taxes as punishment, but I understand the inclination toward it. I really argue on here because it is fun. And it gets people to think more, at least I hope people have to think a little to respond to me.

As much as we all disagree about this, I actually look forward to <fingers crossed> working with some of you in the future, because many of you are insightful. I also hope that whatever happens with this round of reforms that it turns out for the best not just for those without coverage now, but also for the physicians that work hard to provide quality care.
 
I think we can fix the system without salaries being cut. However by the same token. Who is qualified to determine what a doctor should be paid? Your argument works both ways. . .If you leave it up to doctors, it becomes the genie in the lamp. But it is not for the usfg to decide either.

I would say, ideally, a doctor in private practice would set prices as high as the market can bear (or as high as he/she decided was ethically warranted). The key factor being that the provider gets to decide and bears the ethical responsibility for that decision.

What troubles me about the current debate is mandating doctors treat patients who choose (or can only afford) the public option. Slight miss-pricing could devastate particular specialties/regions and corrective actions would not be at market pace, but government pace + convenience.

Where I come from (Las Vegas), we have already lost burn ICU coverage, outpatient cancer care for the undeserved, and many excellent OBGYNs to whacked out reimbursement + regulation schemes.

I've worked and work with said undeserved populations. I know the stakes here. People have and do die because of under-coverage, there is no denying that. What frustrates me is why we feel the need to go full out with a federally mandated one-sized-fits-all option to a problem that is incredibly complicated, nuanced, and where needs vary from region to region and tx. to tx. (Kurtz, I'm not claiming this is your position.)

There are other options to consider as well. Consider Kent Conrad's. During my time in DC, I came to appreciate his pragmatism. His proposal is not the solution, but at least it is something other than this blasted one-sized fits-all-strategy.
 
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I understand excessive is relative, but the average md salary is over three times the mean family income. No, I am not advocating price controls at all, thank you for asking before accusing. And for the third time today, I don't think physicians are overpaid, with exception of maybe some of the sub specialties that cater to the wealthy. But even then that's not the argument I am making. I was merely questioning whether a profession built on compassion can enrich themselves at the expense of the lower end of the economic bracket. This isn't a comment on all physicians, but some pre meds on this board who have expressed the attitude that it's okay if people go without health care so they can make lots of money. And sorry to break this to those folks, but you can have quite a nice life on 150-200k. Even with the loans you'll take out. It's called living within your means, something plenty of you have advocated on other threads under the name "personal responsibility."

I think we can fix the system without salaries being cut. However by the same token. Who is qualified to determine what a doctor should be paid? Your argument works both ways. . .If you leave it up to doctors, it becomes the genie in the lamp. But it is not for the usfg to decide either.

You say that physicians earn three times more than the average family, but forget to mention that physicians also have three times the training/education, sometimes more. If being a doctor was so easy everyone would do it, same thing with being a rock star or athlete. The more specialized and difficult a skill set the more it is valued by society. I believe you understand this but then you bring up the average income of a family and its comparing apples to oranges.

I just think that the people who compromise their health for drugs or wutever else it might be made a choice. As a compassionate society we should give these people healthcare. However in a time when healthcare costs are out of control and people are calling for the cutting this and that to make healthcare affordable, one of the things that inevitably will happen is rationing of care. I think if you would rather do crack then take your blood pressure medication, then maybe we should spend the money on a kid with leukemia instead.
 
I would say, ideally, a doctor in private practice would set prices as high as the market can bear (or as high as he/she decided was ethically warranted). The key factor being that the provider gets to decide and bears the ethical responsibility for that decision.

What troubles me about the current debate is mandating doctors treat patients who choose (or can only afford) the public option. Slight miss-pricing could devastate particular specialties/regions and corrective actions would not be at market pace, but government pace + convenience.

Where I come from (Las Vegas), we have already lost burn ICU coverage, outpatient cancer care for the undeserved, and many excellent OBGYNs to whacked out reimbursement + regulation schemes.

I've worked and work with said undeserved populations. I know the stakes here. People have and do die because of under-coverage, there is no denying that. What frustrates me is why we feel the need to go full out with a federally mandated one-sized-fits-all option to a problem that is incredibly complicated, nuanced, and where needs vary from region to region and tx. to tx. (Kurtz, I'm not claiming this is your position.)

There are other options to consider as well. Consider Kent Conrad's. During my time in DC, I came to appreciate his pragmatism. His proposal is not the solution, but at least it is something other than this blasted one-sized fits-all-strategy.

The co-op idea is nice. Ideally we need to have a model that benefits as many as possible, with physicians and patients as the top priority. Now I would like Obama to fill out his proposal, as it seems to be quite different from what was introduced in committee though I could be wrong. From his speech I gathered that it is a little less of the one size fits all approach. But who knows, I know there well be hefty spin put on it from both sides.

I also think doctors should have the largest voice in the debate, but we should also hear from patients. But doctors are the ones most likely to be able to put a working model together.

Here's what I do know: Whatever happens, once I become a doctor, I will be as generous with my time and money as possible to help people. I hope others are willing to do what they can as well.
 
You say that physicians earn three times more than the average family, but forget to mention that physicians also have three times the training/education, sometimes more. If being a doctor was so easy everyone would do it, same thing with being a rock star or athlete. The more specialized and difficult a skill set the more it is valued by society. I believe you understand this but then you bring up the average income of a family and its comparing apples to oranges.

I just think that the people who compromise their health for drugs or wutever else it might be made a choice. As a compassionate society we should give these people healthcare. However in a time when healthcare costs are out of control and people are calling for the cutting this and that to make healthcare affordable, one of the things that inevitably will happen is rationing of care. I think if you would rather do crack then take your blood pressure medication, then maybe we should spend the money on a kid with leukemia instead.

Yeah, in another thread, I proposed cutting funding for some programs that fail currently, I'm not gonna rehash it here though. Rationing care sucks. I recommend you watch "the wire" because it is enlightening and entertaining. Though it is basically one person's viewpoint, it makes a lot of good points about drug use and the drug trade, as well as the economics of cities that rose with the industrial revolution but failed to make the transition to a modern economy.

Either way, it's time for everyone to step up and find a solution--that requires looking past our particular ideologies and finding a solution that is satisfactory for both providers and patients.
 
Only in medicine will you find pre-professionals arguing that a lower salary is noble and, in fact, acceptable...
 
First, I agreed above that doctor's salaries are not the problem. Second, being cut any more? The average md still makes more than triple the average income of a family. Right or wrong, when people see that the AMA demands no more salary cuts in the middle of an economic downturn it feeds the perception that doctor's are greedy. That alienates the public from a profession that is built on compassion. If physicians want their patients to trust them it is important to maintain that trust and work to that end. Why do you think there has been this turn toward homepathic remedies over the last couple years? It is a combination of distrust of the motives of the medical profession and rising health care costs. Should physicians bend over to satisfy the public? Of course not, but they also shouldn't make every argument begin and end with well, we're not taking a pay cut.

The average person doesn't have a college degree, much less other a decade of higher learning. The average person doesn't work an 80 hour work week under the constant threats of lawsuits, they bitch and whine about having to work 40. People turn towards homeopathic medicine because they're stupid. The average person is a lazy, stupid, jealous, complacent crybaby. I don't give two ****s what the public thinks.
 
The average person doesn't have a college degree, much less other a decade of higher learning. The average person doesn't work an 80 hour work week under the constant threats of lawsuits, they bitch and whine about having to work 40. People turn towards homeopathic medicine because they're stupid. The average person is a lazy, stupid, jealous, complacent crybaby. I don't give two ****s what the public thinks.

I think you should start your personal statement with this. Guaranteed acceptance!
 
Thank you for the respect. No, I don't think price controls are right, i think i am more speaking about the mindset of some of the posters here more than any policy. Someone floated the idea of insurance vouchers, something I think should be explored. I think the free market could solve much of the problem, provided the government is able to punish those that exploit it. Now, I agree reasonable is subjective as well. But while there is no standard way to define it, I think almost everyone thinks they should be paid more than they probably deserve. However, I don't think we should base any policy on something that subjective.

Kurtz, as much as I love arguing with you, I wanted to talk about vouchers for a second. The worry with vouchers is that they will either turn into Medicare (Part C) or that they will lead to government control/imposition/meddling in private insurance companies. If the former is true, it will be essentially like the government paying private insurance premiums (or subsidizing them at least), which will lead to higher taxes because there is no potential income recuperation for the government (like in their proposed public health insurer model. The latter possibility is that since government is now paying some of the bill, the costs will eventually spiral until the government can't or doesn't want to pay as much. When this occurs, the fear is that either the government will scale back how much it pays to insurers, yet demand the same coverage, or try to meddle in what insurers are doing. There are other arguments on this topic, but these are the ones that made the most sense.
 
Kurtz, as much as I love arguing with you, I wanted to talk about vouchers for a second. The worry with vouchers is that they will either turn into Medicare (Part C) or that they will lead to government control/imposition/meddling in private insurance companies. If the former is true, it will be essentially like the government paying private insurance premiums (or subsidizing them at least), which will lead to higher taxes because there is no potential income recuperation for the government (like in their proposed public health insurer model. The latter possibility is that since government is now paying some of the bill, the costs will eventually spiral until the government can't or doesn't want to pay as much. When this occurs, the fear is that either the government will scale back how much it pays to insurers, yet demand the same coverage, or try to meddle in what insurers are doing. There are other arguments on this topic, but these are the ones that made the most sense.

Yeah, those do make sense. I was jut curious. The first criticism came ot me immediately, the second is one I had not really thought about. I wanna think on this for a couple more days. I also want to do a little more research on the obama plan and the co-op model that was posted earlier. It'll of course be a little difficult to sort through the spin I bet. One thing I know is that medicare must go.
 
Did you read the Gawande article linked in that blog post?

What you're describing is where a market functions "properly;" financial incentives reward efficiciency. Gawande's article is all about how medical markets in this country do not work properly. Doctors are not rewarded financally for the quality or efficiency of the care they provide, i.e., how healthy they can make their patients and at what cost, but simply by how much, and how costly, treatment they give - for better or worse healthcare outcomes, often for worse.

If thats true, your argument about money being a great incentive doesnt really work. The question isn't just, how much do doctors get paid; its - what are they getting paid for?

Edit: Hey, this argument was made from the right in today's Washington Post. What do you know. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy.../06/14/AR2009061402444.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

I should preface this with saying that I only had time to skim the Gawande article, though I've read both his books and lots of stuff on the subject.


This is precisely the problem...we have in place a degraded capitalistic system, whereby the free market only works in spurts and starts. My argument for higher physician pay and increased incentives for medicine goes hand in hand with a couple of other arguments that I've made over the past year or so. The first is that insurance has destroyed medicine, and the second is that we need to shift the highly-regulated, yet immensely necessary jobs of many primary care practitioners away from doctors (see earlier posts for why and how). If the latter of these two goals were accomplished, it would ease the pressure that the detriments to a free health market have caused, but it would by no means alleviate them. If the former were to be fixed (i.e. remove insurance from the healthcare), we would have fixed the healthcare crisis. I admit that my arguments are based on a more idealistic market than what now exists, but it is the goal of many of the proposed solutions to the crisis to at least attempt to bolster a free healthcare market.
 
I should preface this with saying that I only had time to skim the Gawande article, though I've read both his books and lots of stuff on the subject.


This is precisely the problem...we have in place a degraded capitalistic system, whereby the free market only works in spurts and starts. My argument for higher physician pay and increased incentives for medicine goes hand in hand with a couple of other arguments that I've made over the past year or so. The first is that insurance has destroyed medicine, and the second is that we need to shift the highly-regulated, yet immensely necessary jobs of many primary care practitioners away from doctors (see earlier posts for why and how). If the latter of these two goals were accomplished, it would ease the pressure that the detriments to a free health market have caused, but it would by no means alleviate them. If the former were to be fixed (i.e. remove insurance from the healthcare), we would have fixed the healthcare crisis. I admit that my arguments are based on a more idealistic market than what now exists, but it is the goal of many of the proposed solutions to the crisis to at least attempt to bolster a free healthcare market.

I agree insurance is a problem; in that it keeps a lot of the costs of healthcare hidden from patients, it probably creates moral hazard. But even without insurance, I'm not sure healthcare could ever function well as an unregualted free market. Information is so costly in health care - being a patient isnt like buying a widget.
 
The medical school admissions process is wholly responsible for this.

Really? I feel like this process has made me want a higher salary when i get done, to compensate for all I've been put through ...
 
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