Debate- High GPA/Avg MCAT at top schools?

[italian919]

After some searching I haven't found any threads this year with this topic- it's usually the opposite (high mcat, low gpa). I thought I'd get some conversation going for high gpa, average mcat- and which schools favor this?

How much weight can a very high gpa carry? Say a ~3.95-4.00, at a respected undergrad.

Will a 4.0 and a 29-30 MCAT be preferred as much as a 3.3 and 40 MCAT?

With the whole "work ethic vs test taking skill debate" I'm curious to know how the two scenarios play out at top to mid tier med schools.

Out of the top 50 medical schools, which, if any, actually tend to take a higher gpa over higher mcat?

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[thetubes]

Your GPA depends on what your major is, the kinds of classes you take/difficulty and the load (how many credits/semester). Due to all that variability, it's difficult to say. In any case, the MCAT needs to fall within range (like bottom 20%) to receive consideration. Also, having a really high science GPA and low MCAT relative to others at your school might raise some eyebrows since they might think you may have cheated in college to get those grades. I think this isn't really a big issue since the MCAT is offered so many times now that you can really just retake it, especially if you want to shoot for top schools (doesn't make sense to apply with a lower MCAT due to app fees, time). That option is less likely for the reverse scenario (high MCAT, low GPA) since taking additional coursework is really expensive in terms of money and work/effort/time relative to retaking the MCAT.

 

[Frunkey]

Ultimately, this is an unanswerable topic. There are just as many exceptions as rules. Let me give my take, and bear in mind that I am no authority on this matter.

If I were on an AdCom, the first group of kids I would look at would be the kids with (of course) stellar grades and MCAT scores. These kids not only prove they have long-term work ethic, but can perform in test situations. This includes those who have 4.0's and 30's (still in the top 30% right?). Hooray for them

The next group of people I would look to would be those with mediocre GPAs and good MCATs. Why? Well mostly, because I am one of them. Therefore, let this be read with this knowledge. But to argue my point, this combination proves two things:

1) That this individual, despite the average numbers assigned to them by teachers, has been able to learn, retain, and apply the vital medical sciences required to understand/practice medicine. It shows that other factors might have led to the lower grades, including a relaxed personality or a personal crisis, neither of which are necessarily bad things.

2) Not only do these students prove they are capable of mastering material, but they were able to recall and apply all of it while under pressure. Just because someone can memorize something for a class, or get extra credit from nice teachers, does not mean they can retain what they have learned and apply it successfully in a stressful setting. The MCAT is a good indication of this ability.

However, a low GPA is hard to overcome. It can indicate either very difficult schooling or complete laziness, or both. One must have a renewed sense of purpose and dedication to try to make it through med school. It definitely doesn't get any easier...

The third group is the High GPA/low MCAT crowd. Say a 3.75+ and a 25. This trend is dangerous, because it exposes some weaknesses:

1) It brings into question the means by which one achieves their good GPA, whether it was teacher pandering or grade inflation or easier schooling.

2) It also questions how well that person ever learned that material. If the classes they took never covered some of the content on the MCAT, their GPA cannot be compared to others who mastered more material. Moreover, if one only learns the material in order to master a classroom test, and then forgets it all, then that person is not studying what they love.

3) Furthermore, despite a grand GPA, this student did not perform well under pressure. Working under pressure is the name of the medicine game, and this is fatal.

With all this said, and an hour wasted, I hope this helps somewhat. This is by no means a definitive answer, just my opinion.

 

[Mobius1985]

Out of the top 50 medical schools, which, if any, actually tend to take a higher gpa over higher mcat?

None of them. I agree completely with the analysis of the previous poster. You'll need to retake the MCAT if you want to go to one of the "top" schools.

 

[italian919]

Ultimately, this is an unanswerable topic. There are just as many exceptions as rules. Let me give my take, and bear in mind that I am no authority on this matter.

If I were on an AdCom, the first group of kids I would look at would be the kids with (of course) stellar grades and MCAT scores. These kids not only prove they have long-term work ethic, but can perform in test situations. This includes those who have 4.0's and 30's (still in the top 30% right?). Hooray for them

The next group of people I would look to would be those with mediocre GPAs and good MCATs. Why? Well mostly, because I am one of them. Therefore, let this be read with this knowledge. But to argue my point, this combination proves two things:

1) That this individual, despite the average numbers assigned to them by teachers, has been able to learn, retain, and apply the vital medical sciences required to understand/practice medicine. It shows that other factors might have led to the lower grades, including a relaxed personality or a personal crisis, neither of which are necessarily bad things.

2) Not only do these students prove they are capable of mastering material, but they were able to recall and apply all of it while under pressure. Just because someone can memorize something for a class, or get extra credit from nice teachers, does not mean they can retain what they have learned and apply it successfully in a stressful setting. The MCAT is a good indication of this ability.

However, a low GPA is hard to overcome. It can indicate either very difficult schooling or complete laziness, or both. One must have a renewed sense of purpose and dedication to try to make it through med school. It definitely doesn't get any easier...

The third group is the High GPA/low MCAT crowd. Say a 3.75+ and a 25. This trend is dangerous, because it exposes some weaknesses:

1) It brings into question the means by which one achieves their good GPA, whether it was teacher pandering or grade inflation or easier schooling.

2) It also questions how well that person ever learned that material. If the classes they took never covered some of the content on the MCAT, their GPA cannot be compared to others who mastered more material. Moreover, if one only learns the material in order to master a classroom test, and then forgets it all, then that person is not studying what they love.

3) Furthermore, despite a grand GPA, this student did not perform well under pressure. Working under pressure is the name of the medicine game, and this is fatal.

With all this said, and an hour wasted, I hope this helps somewhat. This is by no means a definitive answer, just my opinion.

Definitely not an hour wasted- thanks so much for your reply. I was more interested in hearing opinions on the "mediocre MCAT, stellar GPA" and not the low MCAT with high GPA, as I agree that would raise some eyebrows. I had no idea that a 4.0/ 30 would fall into the "first category" as you put it. Helps me out a bunch.

 

[thetubes]

Definitely not an hour wasted- thanks so much for your reply. I was more interested in hearing opinions on the "mediocre MCAT, stellar GPA" and not the low MCAT with high GPA, as I agree that would raise some eyebrows. I had no idea that a 4.0/ 30 would fall into the "first category" as you put it. Helps me out a bunch.

I'd say it depends on the school. For any of the top 20 schools (median GPA around 3.8, 35 MCAT median) I would say 4.0, 30 would fall in the good GPA, low MCAT category.

 

[TheElement]

http://www.aamc.org/members/gsa/coa/...mcatgraphs.pdf

Here's some data from aamc. It's for all the schools overall though..

 

[Lukkie]

Ultimately, this is an unanswerable topic. There are just as many exceptions as rules. Let me give my take, and bear in mind that I am no authority on this matter.

If I were on an AdCom, the first group of kids I would look at would be the kids with (of course) stellar grades and MCAT scores. These kids not only prove they have long-term work ethic, but can perform in test situations. This includes those who have 4.0's and 30's (still in the top 30% right?). Hooray for them

The next group of people I would look to would be those with mediocre GPAs and good MCATs. Why? Well mostly, because I am one of them. Therefore, let this be read with this knowledge. But to argue my point, this combination proves two things:

1) That this individual, despite the average numbers assigned to them by teachers, has been able to learn, retain, and apply the vital medical sciences required to understand/practice medicine. It shows that other factors might have led to the lower grades, including a relaxed personality or a personal crisis, neither of which are necessarily bad things.

2) Not only do these students prove they are capable of mastering material, but they were able to recall and apply all of it while under pressure. Just because someone can memorize something for a class, or get extra credit from nice teachers, does not mean they can retain what they have learned and apply it successfully in a stressful setting. The MCAT is a good indication of this ability.

However, a low GPA is hard to overcome. It can indicate either very difficult schooling or complete laziness, or both. One must have a renewed sense of purpose and dedication to try to make it through med school. It definitely doesn't get any easier...

The third group is the High GPA/low MCAT crowd. Say a 3.75+ and a 25. This trend is dangerous, because it exposes some weaknesses:

1) It brings into question the means by which one achieves their good GPA, whether it was teacher pandering or grade inflation or easier schooling.

2) It also questions how well that person ever learned that material. If the classes they took never covered some of the content on the MCAT, their GPA cannot be compared to others who mastered more material. Moreover, if one only learns the material in order to master a classroom test, and then forgets it all, then that person is not studying what they love.

3) Furthermore, despite a grand GPA, this student did not perform well under pressure. Working under pressure is the name of the medicine game, and this is fatal.

With all this said, and an hour wasted, I hope this helps somewhat. This is by no means a definitive answer, just my opinion.

this is a very good post.

 

[Frunkey]

I'd say it depends on the school. For any of the top 20 schools (median GPA around 3.8, 35 MCAT median) I would say 4.0, 30 would fall in the good GPA, low MCAT category.

I would tend to agree with you. Top institutions sure are number ****** nowadays. But I suppose it serves a function.

In any case, I may have been a bit generous with the high/high marks on the 4.0/30. I am not your typical SDN'er...I am not thrown off by the top 0.2% of applicants, 100% of whom are represented in these forums. But with the average matriculant at ~30.5, a 30 does fall below the average. Good luck anyhow, my GPA looks like this

(totally digging the smileys)

 

[cbrons]

I don't know, just seems to make more sense that if you're average as far as grades are concerned, say 3.65, but have an above-average MCAT you'd be more likely to be accepted than someone with above-average GPA and an average MCAT. No one knows how hard one schools curriculum is vs. the other, and the MCAT is the only (close to) objective way in which adcoms can base their decision. Think about it, someone could say their ivy-league pre-reqs were harder than a community college but they cannot say the same thing about the MCAT. Or maybe it works out like this, if you go to a big-name school a high GPA is more likely to impress rather than a no-name state school in the middle of a cornfield like me where a high MCAT is seen as impressive.

Butcha never know ... i could be wrong!!!!

 

[T12]

Definitely not an hour wasted- thanks so much for your reply. I was more interested in hearing opinions on the "mediocre MCAT, stellar GPA" and not the low MCAT with high GPA, as I agree that would raise some eyebrows. I had no idea that a 4.0/ 30 would fall into the "first category" as you put it. Helps me out a bunch.

X2!

Although I don't take it for 2 weeks...

 

[flip26]

With matriculant averages of 3.7/31, all else being equal, an above average GPA / below avg MCAT combo will trump the opposite (above avg MCAT, below avg GPA) at almost every med school.

GPA is more important than MCAT, within reasonable limits.

 

[redbull928]

Not true. Not all about numbers - based on those I know who got into those top 20 schools. Based on their MCAT scores and GPA, I think GPA matters more. Of course, they have excellent EC's.

None of them. I agree completely with the analysis of the previous poster. You'll need to retake the MCAT if you want to go to one of the "top" schools.

 

[harposnarpo]

With matriculant averages of 3.7/31, all else being equal, an above average GPA / below avg MCAT combo will trump the opposite (above avg MCAT, below avg GPA) at almost every med school.

GPA is more important than MCAT, within reasonable limits.

Based on what?

 

[flip26]

Based on what?

Based on AMCAS stats, the MSAR, and the anecdotal evidence culled from SDN, etc.

GPA represents 4 years of effort. MCAT is a single exam. Both are important. But GPA is more important, within normal ranges.

Someone with a 3.7/31 is a MUCH stronger applicant than with a 3.1/37, but using the LizzyM formula, they are otherwise equal. They are NOT equal when it comes to med school admissions.

Neither combo will get much attention at the USNEWs Top 30, but for mere mortal applicants hoping to get admitted anywhere, the higher GPA is much more important.

 

[QuikClot]

I applied to a lot of elite schools with a 3.66 (3.9 in pre-req.s) and a 39S. I got only three interviews. Just my experience.

If I were an adcom, and the MCAT didn't raise red flags (29-30 doesn't) I'd rather see a stellar GPA (assuming your O. Chem courses and the like are excellent) and the merely good MCAT then the other way around (which was my situation).

Success in med school and as a medical student is all about maturity and character. If you can turn it on and ace a test, but couldn't make the grades, that doesn't send a great message. If you're 30 MCAT smart, you're plenty smart enough, and if you did a 3.95 with that (with tough courses) then you are disciplined and hard working as well. Pretty easy call for an adcom.

 

[flip26]

I applied to a lot of elite schools with a 3.66 (3.9 in pre-req.s) and a 39S. I got only three interviews. Just my experience.

If I were an adcom, and the MCAT didn't raise red flags (29-30 doesn't) I'd rather see a stellar GPA (assuming your O. Chem courses and the like are excellent) and the merely good MCAT then the other way around (which was my situation).

Success in med school and as a medical student is all about maturity and character. If you can turn it on and ace a test, but couldn't make the grades, that doesn't send a great message. If you're 30 MCAT smart, you're plenty smart enough, and if you did a 3.95 with that (with tough courses) then you are disciplined and hard working as well. Pretty easy call for an adcom.

Lots of people think (or maybe they "hope") that "rocking the MCAT" will make up for less than stellar grades - it won't.

Thanks for sharing your example. I am participating on another thread where this issue of GPA has come up, and I also cited the "character" factor that adcoms see in a student with high (3.9+) grades. To maintain a 3.9+ GPA as a pre-med is no mean feat.

Ironically, it seems like more people on SDN would trade a 3.9/30 for a 3.0/39, and they could not make a worse choice (not that grades are a choice unless you "choose" to kick ass from day one of college like many of the people we will compete against have done).

 

[ofoshoukno]

After some searching I haven't found any threads this year with this topic- it's usually the opposite (high mcat, low gpa). I thought I'd get some conversation going for high gpa, average mcat- and which schools favor this?

How much weight can a very high gpa carry? Say a ~3.95-4.00, at a respected undergrad.

Will a 4.0 and a 29-30 MCAT be preferred as much as a 3.3 and 40 MCAT?

With the whole "work ethic vs test taking skill debate" I'm curious to know how the two scenarios play out at top to mid tier med schools.

Out of the top 50 medical schools, which, if any, actually tend to take a higher gpa over higher mcat?

30 is not low man, especially if you have good score distribution.

like str8 10's.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I guess If I had to choose between one high and one low, I'd want the high GPA, low MCAT because at least that one is easily fixable and will still get you into DO and perhaps some MD schools. If I had to pick one average and one low, I'd take GPA again. One average one high, I'd much rather have a high MCAT.

If I were on an adcom - and I hope to be eventually - I would put far more weight into course work than GPA. There are classes I had to bust my ass in to get a C (electromagnetism, quantum mechanics) and lots of classes I practically got an A in just for showing up. Big numbers are great, but what did you do to get them? Were you a poli sci major who just took the bare minimum of prereqs or a chemical engineering major for whom the med school prereqs were the easiest courses you had? Where'd you go to school? What were the programs there like? How did their GPA's compare with people at the same schools who did similar study courses?

People with a high MCAT and low GPA would be a source of curiosity for me. Are they gifted slackers or did they just get trampled by a stifling curriculum?