Debt to earning for dental degree not worth it. Check twice, apply (dont)

[TanMan]

I can understand where you are coming from and I truly believe dentistry has a vast vast scope of experiences for many people depending on a multitude of factors: your experience may not be similar to mine and vice versa. I should have prefaced my post by stating that I am a Peds so I am not a GP and I practice in the suburbs of a major metro (NYC). I am talking from my experience as a Peds with familiarity with NYC SoCal and Philly metro areas. Points 2 3 and 5 are very accurate for the market I am in. You will need new equipment to be a successful practice in NYC metro and doing a start up is definitely not cheap either here and pretty high risk (already know of 2 friends who gave up their practices because the cost was too high)…also staffing issue is still a major problem in the entire northeast let alone nyc metro.

Again you mentioned you were a solo practitioner in a simple small town…which is probably not the majority of experiences for most dentists and especially new grad dentists.

Also I was not trying to dissuade anyone from ownership as I do believe every dentist should have ownership as their end goal but rather I was trying to share my experiences and create realistic expectations of new grads trying to own their own practice.

To sum it up basically, I agree with the original post and would not encourage dentistry for anyone who has to take significant amount of debt as being an associate sucks and being an owner is not a cake walk either and not something you can just “work harder and see more volume and you’ll do well” as people make it out to be.


My 2 cents. 😆

Yeah... I started my practice with 100k. Definitely, if you are going to take on a bunch of debt, you will need to do what it takes to succeed, which includes moving to where you are needed, working weekends (or when needed), and working hard. Going into a saturated area with lots of regulatory hurdles that increase the cost of startup and lots of competition increases the cost of doing business overall without the increase in revenue makes little/no sense.

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[deleted903013]

I just finished dental school, and looking back, I think it's absurd that anyone would even consider going to a dental school like NYU, USC, or any of those other expensive schools. It's just not worth it. Even though I didn't go to an expensive school, if I could go back in time, I would probably forgo college and go become an electrician right out of high school. One of my friends did that, and his salary is listed online at 120k because he works for the state (so you can look up his salary). I'm not sure if all apprenticeships are like this, but he had zero debt for his apprenticeship and he got paid during his training period. I took some time in college to figure out what I wanted to do, took a gap year, etc. etc. And now he's been working as a an electrician with no debt at 120k for almost a decade.

I almost entirely agree with you. I've posted previously I will push my future sons to go into the trades. I'd like to think people are catching on that college actually hardly confers any real skillset while electricians, plumbers, etc are learning real, marketable skills.

 

[D1Bound]

It's kinda cute this idealistic view that you have of dentistry to be honest. Come talk to me when you are done with dental school lol. I really hope you aren't doing this for prestige, a big portion of the general public likely doesn't hold dentists in higher regard than they do an electrician, that's for sure. And by the time you are done with dental school, you will likely hear multiple times from patients something to the effect of "dentists aren't actually doctors" either by a misunderstanding or malice.

You clearly didn't even read what I wrote

 

[dentistspec123]

Yeah... I started my practice with 100k. Definitely, if you are going to take on a bunch of debt, you will need to do what it takes to succeed, which includes moving to where you are needed, working weekends (or when needed), and working hard. Going into a saturated area with lots of regulatory hurdles that increase the cost of startup and lots of competition increases the cost of doing business overall without the increase in revenue makes little/no sense.

Yes but at what point does taking on 400,000$ in debt for dental school and then 100-300k debt to start a practice and then being pushed to work in small town America make any sense?
No way would I encourage someone to take on close to $800,000 at 4-7% interest just to have a successful dental practice in small town USA (no offense) when someone of equal intelligence can be successful in just about any other career with the same work ethic and a better debt to income ratio, and probably less stressful too.

Also what about those who are born and raised from these saturated areas, have spouses who need to be there because of their job, have family who lives there who helps with childcare (ie me) etc… it’s not that easy to just say “well move to a less saturated area and be successful but also you’ll have to take on more debt and risk and uproot your whole family and then what if you hate the town youre in anyway.” Also I am honestly doing just fine in a major metro but boy did I work my ass off to get where I am now, and looking back I wouldn’t encourage many people to have to do what I did and am doing when there’s so many other great professions out there.

 

[charlestweed]

Nothing in life is easy. Life is a series of trade-offs. You have to give up something in order to get something. Not everyone has the physical capacity to handle the labor-intensive work of the electricians and plumbers. Not everyone is willing to take the risk of getting seriously injured from falling off the ladder or from crawling in a tight space in harsh weather condition. Electrician’s job is one of the top 10 dangerous jobs….right up there with firefighter, fisherman, truck driver, construction worker etc. Top 10 Most Tough and Dangerous Jobs in The World (wonderslist.com). These labor intensive jobs are definitely not suitable for women and small weak men like me. I am only 5’5”…not very athletic….and I don’t think I'd survive the job that requires me to carry heavy objects every day for the next 20-30 years of my life. I’d rather take out loan to pay for my education so I can have a job that requires the use of my brain more than the use of my arms and legs. If you are a female and you want to make $150-200k a year, what other good paying and stable (and stable is the key word here) office jobs out there that you can get….and that don’t require long schooling like dentistry? RN is a good one, PA is another good one, Dental hygiene is also a good one….but none of these jobs pays as well as dentistry…none of these is as good as being a dentist….none of these jobs allows you to be your own boss and set your own work schedule.

 

[charlestweed]

Yes but at what point does taking on 400,000$ in debt for dental school and then 100-300k debt to start a practice and then being pushed to work in small town America make any sense?
No way would I encourage someone to take on close to $800,000 at 4-7% interest just to have a successful dental practice in small town USA (no offense) when someone of equal intelligence can be successful in just about any other career with the same work ethic and a better debt to income ratio, and probably less stressful too.

If a dentist already owes $4-500k in student loan, taking out another $3-400k loan to set up or to purchase a dental office would be an unwise thing to do. He/she should spend $100k or less like what Taman did. When I was in my early 30s, I owed close to $1 million ($450k in student loan, $380k in home loan, $130k for my wife’s practice loan, and 2 leased cars). Because of such enormous amount debt, I could only afford to spend $120k to set up my own office. To maintain positive cashflow, I continued to work F/T for the corp office and I worked at my newly built office on Saturdays and Sundays.

A dental office doesn’t have to cost $4-500k to build. You should never listen to the equipment sale reps who try to sell their products. It’s a myth that you have to spend a lot of money on the high tech modern equipment in order to attract new patients. Your office just needs to look nice and clean….and it shouldn’t cost too much to do this because new paint and new tile/wood floor are very inexpensive. Things that should help attract more new patients to your office are your convenient office’s hours, your friendly and helpful staff, your tx fees (accepting a variety of insurance plans), less patient wait time (you have to be good and fast), keeping the referring GPs happy by doing good work (if you are a specialist), and your clinical skills (excellent results, fewer redos). Happy patients = more word of mouth referrals. Doctor-patient relatiohship is very important. Being honest to your patients is very important. You don’t take a scan on every new patient and charge patient a ton money just because there is a CBCT machine in your office. You don’t put a crown on every tooth just because there is a Cerec machine in your office.

I recently moved my office to a new location because the landlord didn’t want to renew the lease contract (he kicked me out). I only paid $50k to convert an existing medical office to an ortho office. This happened in 2018….not 10-20 years ago. And I am practicing in Southern California. The current rent is $2600 a month for this 1700sf office. Below are the before and after pictures of my ortho office.

 

[charlestweed]

Also what about those who are born and raised from these saturated areas, have spouses who need to be there because of their job, have family who lives there who helps with childcare (ie me) etc… it’s not that easy to just say “well move to a less saturated area and be successful but also you’ll have to take on more debt and risk and uproot your whole family and then what if you hate the town youre in anyway.” Also I am honestly doing just fine in a major metro but boy did I work my ass off to get where I am now, and looking back I wouldn’t encourage many people to have to do what I did and am doing when there’s so many other great professions out there.

I don’t have any issue with moving to the location where my wife can get a job. With my wife’s income, I don’t have to work too hard. Double income is always better than single income. I want a working wife and not a stay home mom type of wife. And if something bad happens to me, my wife should be able to step up to take care of the family both financially and emotionally. Choosing a right person to marry to is also very important. Many studies have shown that money problems in a marriage are the number one cause of divorce.

 

[8_man]

If a dentist already owes $4-500k in student loan, taking out another $3-400k loan to set up or to purchase a dental office would be an unwise thing to do. He/she should spend $100k or less like what Taman did. When I was in my early 30s, I owed close to $1 million ($450k in student loan, $380k in home loan, $130k for my wife’s practice loan, and 2 leased cars). Because of such enormous amount debt, I could only afford to spend $120k to set up my own office. To maintain positive cashflow, I continued to work F/T for the corp office and I worked at my newly built office on Saturdays and Sundays.

A dental office doesn’t have to cost $4-500k to build. You should never listen to the equipment sale reps who try to sell their products. It’s a myth that you have to spend a lot of money on the high tech modern equipment in order to attract new patients. Your office just needs to look nice and clean….and it shouldn’t cost too much to do this because new paint and new tile/wood floor are very inexpensive. Things that should help attract more new patients to your office are your convenient office’s hours, your friendly and helpful staff, your tx fees (accepting a variety of insurance plans), less patient wait time (you have to be good and fast), keeping the referring GPs happy by doing good work (if you are a specialist), and your clinical skills (excellent results, fewer redos). Happy patients = more word of mouth referrals. Doctor-patient relatiohship is very important. Being honest to your patients is very important. You don’t take a scan on every new patient and charge patient a ton money just because there is a CBCT machine in your office. You don’t put a crown on every tooth just because there is a Cerec machine in your office.

I recently moved my office to a new location because the landlord didn’t want to renew the lease contract (he kicked me out). I only paid $50k to convert an existing medical office to an ortho office. This happened in 2018….not 10-20 years ago. And I am practicing in Southern California. The current rent is $2600 a month for this 1700sf office. Below are the before and after pictures of my ortho office.

View attachment 339572


View attachment 339573View attachment 339574View attachment 339575View attachment 339577View attachment 339578

The before photos look depressing... amazing job on the renovations doc

 

[TanMan]

Yes but at what point does taking on 400,000$ in debt for dental school and then 100-300k debt to start a practice and then being pushed to work in small town America make any sense?
No way would I encourage someone to take on close to $800,000 at 4-7% interest just to have a successful dental practice in small town USA (no offense) when someone of equal intelligence can be successful in just about any other career with the same work ethic and a better debt to income ratio, and probably less stressful too.

Also what about those who are born and raised from these saturated areas, have spouses who need to be there because of their job, have family who lives there who helps with childcare (ie me) etc… it’s not that easy to just say “well move to a less saturated area and be successful but also you’ll have to take on more debt and risk and uproot your whole family and then what if you hate the town youre in anyway.” Also I am honestly doing just fine in a major metro but boy did I work my ass off to get where I am now, and looking back I wouldn’t encourage many people to have to do what I did and am doing when there’s so many other great professions out there.

I think the financial rewards of practicing in the suburbs definitely compensates for not living in the city. If someone is going to incur that much debt, I think that being flexible is important in order to succeed. In my circumstances, even if I had to take out a million dollars of debt, I think it would have been worth it. Now, as a disclaimer, YMMV depending on many factors. Would I have thought that dentistry was worth a million dollars of debt going into dentistry before becoming a dentist? Heck no. Thank goodness I didn't have to take that much in loans, but knowing what I know now, I would've taken the debt IF I had no other alternatives.

 

[New_Vegas]

If a dentist already owes $4-500k in student loan, taking out another $3-400k loan to set up or to purchase a dental office would be an unwise thing to do. He/she should spend $100k or less like what Taman did. When I was in my early 30s, I owed close to $1 million ($450k in student loan, $380k in home loan, $130k for my wife’s practice loan, and 2 leased cars). Because of such enormous amount debt, I could only afford to spend $120k to set up my own office. To maintain positive cashflow, I continued to work F/T for the corp office and I worked at my newly built office on Saturdays and Sundays.

A dental office doesn’t have to cost $4-500k to build. You should never listen to the equipment sale reps who try to sell their products. It’s a myth that you have to spend a lot of money on the high tech modern equipment in order to attract new patients. Your office just needs to look nice and clean….and it shouldn’t cost too much to do this because new paint and new tile/wood floor are very inexpensive. Things that should help attract more new patients to your office are your convenient office’s hours, your friendly and helpful staff, your tx fees (accepting a variety of insurance plans), less patient wait time (you have to be good and fast), keeping the referring GPs happy by doing good work (if you are a specialist), and your clinical skills (excellent results, fewer redos). Happy patients = more word of mouth referrals. Doctor-patient relatiohship is very important. Being honest to your patients is very important. You don’t take a scan on every new patient and charge patient a ton money just because there is a CBCT machine in your office. You don’t put a crown on every tooth just because there is a Cerec machine in your office.

I recently moved my office to a new location because the landlord didn’t want to renew the lease contract (he kicked me out). I only paid $50k to convert an existing medical office to an ortho office. This happened in 2018….not 10-20 years ago. And I am practicing in Southern California. The current rent is $2600 a month for this 1700sf office. Below are the before and after pictures of my ortho office.

View attachment 339572


View attachment 339573View attachment 339574View attachment 339575View attachment 339577View attachment 339578

Wood flooring? Or is that laminate?

 

[New_Vegas]

Nothing in life is easy. Life is a series of trade-offs. You have to give up something in order to get something. Not everyone has the physical capacity to handle the labor-intensive work of the electricians and plumbers. Not everyone is willing to take the risk of getting seriously injured from falling off the ladder or from crawling in a tight space in harsh weather condition. Electrician’s job is one of the top 10 dangerous jobs….right up there with firefighter, fisherman, truck driver, construction worker etc. Top 10 Most Tough and Dangerous Jobs in The World (wonderslist.com). These labor intensive jobs are definitely not suitable for women and small weak men like me. I am only 5’5”…not very athletic….and I don’t think I'd survive the job that requires me to carry heavy objects every day for the next 20-30 years of my life. I’d rather take out loan to pay for my education so I can have a job that requires the use of my brain more than the use of my arms and legs. If you are a female and you want to make $150-200k a year, what other good paying and stable (and stable is the key word here) office jobs out there that you can get….and that don’t require long schooling like dentistry? RN is a good one, PA is another good one, Dental hygiene is also a good one….but none of these jobs pays as well as dentistry…none of these is as good as being a dentist….none of these jobs allows you to be your own boss and set your own work schedule.

There are plenty of electricians who work exclusively tweaking minor problems in people's houses. Installing lights into somebody's front room, adding extra outlets, checking out newly purchased houses for potential problems, redoing the electrical of a house by attaching new wires to old ones and snaking them through the conduits... Being an electrician doesn't have to be a hard job if you don't work in construction. Some electricians make a living by installing new home theatre systems in rich people's houses. Others work office jobs. You can make 500k or more if you have your own business as an electrician. A lot of the things that appeal to people about dentistry you can do as an electrician, for less debt. Working at a construction site of a large building could be more risky, but hey if you are self employed you can choose what you want to do.

But let's not pretend dentistry isn't dangerous or hazardous to your health. There is a risk of acquiring respiratory diseases from patients when you do dental work, needlestick injuries can transfer Hep C, HIV, etc.. Most dentists who are in their 60s or 70s walk hunched over and have to turn their whole torso towards someone instead of moving just their neck, not to mention problems with their hands, shoulders... Dentistry is hard work, as anyone knows who has done it.

Just because some person puts electrician down on a list as being more hazardous than dentistry to your health, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

 

[charlestweed]

The before photos look depressing... amazing job on the renovations doc

Thanks! This is my best looking office. The other 3 offices that I have don’t look as nice as this one. One of them actually looks depressing like the before photos. That one is a general dental office that I rent from a GP owner. I pay the GP owner $1700/month and I only see patients there 2 days a month. I am a simple guy. I have been used to working at the non-ideal corp office environment since graduation. As long as the chairs can recline and the air and suction work, I am fine. My patients only care about the fees and the tx results. The patients who care about how the office looks are not the type of patients I want to treat anyway.

 

[charlestweed]

Wood flooring? Or is that laminate?

I am cheap. It’s laminate. The guy said he installed this type of flooring for a lot of medical and dental offices and his clients were very happy with the look and the durability. According to him, not only the material is cheaper, it’s also easier to repair and replace them because unlike the real wood, these laminated pieces are not permanently glued (or nailed) onto the concrete. Since it is just a rented office space, I don’t want to spend too much money on it.

 

[charlestweed]

There are plenty of electricians who work exclusively tweaking minor problems in people's houses. Installing lights into somebody's front room, adding extra outlets, checking out newly purchased houses for potential problems, redoing the electrical of a house by attaching new wires to old ones and snaking them through the conduits... Being an electrician doesn't have to be a hard job if you don't work in construction. Some electricians make a living by installing new home theatre systems in rich people's houses. Others work office jobs. You can make 500k or more if you have your own business as an electrician. A lot of the things that appeal to people about dentistry you can do as an electrician, for less debt. Working at a construction site of a large building could be more risky, but hey if you are self employed you can choose what you want to do.

But let's not pretend dentistry isn't dangerous or hazardous to your health. There is a risk of acquiring respiratory diseases from patients when you do dental work, needlestick injuries can transfer Hep C, HIV, etc.. Most dentists who are in their 60s or 70s walk hunched over and have to turn their whole torso towards someone instead of moving just their neck, not to mention problems with their hands, shoulders... Dentistry is hard work, as anyone knows who has done it.

Just because some person puts electrician down on a list as being more hazardous than dentistry to your health, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

They don't make money doing those minor electric works. And most of these minor works can be handled by non-licensed handymen, who usually charge their clients much less than what the electricians charge. There are too many electricians but there are not enough rich people out there to hire them to install those fancy home theater systems. Only 9% of the Americans make 6-figure incomes.....and not all top 9% earners want nice theater systems in their houses. I don't have such fancy sound system because I only watch news and my son only watches sports. My wife doesn't even know how to turn on the TV.

Dentistry is relatively safe. We are all trained how to cap the needles properly. The dental assistants are in much higher risk. We all get the Hep B vaccine. The chance of getting HIV in dentistry is essentially 0%. As we get older, our debts should all be paid off and we will only need to work 1-2 days/wk so we won't have to put too stress on our hands and back. Most of the dentists on this SDN forum say they work 4 or less days/week.

 

[New_Vegas]

They don't make money doing those minor electric works. And most of these minor works can be handled by non-licensed handymen, who usually charge their clients much less than what the electricians charge. There are too many electricians but there are not enough rich people out there to hire them to install those fancy home theater systems. Only 9% of the Americans make 6-figure incomes.....and not all top 9% earners want nice theater systems in their houses. I don't have such fancy sound system because I only watch news and my son only watches sports. My wife doesn't even know how to turn on the TV.

Dentistry is relatively safe. We are all trained how to capped the needles properly. The dental assistants are in much higher risk. We all get the Hep B vaccine. The chance of getting HIV in dentistry is essentially 0%. As we get older, our debts should all be paid off and we will only need to work 1-2 days/wk so we won't have to put too stress on our hands and back. Most of the dentists on this SDN forum say they work 4 or less days/week.

But before you go off into generalizations, I know an electrician who installs home theatres exclusively, and this guy is filthy rich. And there definitely are electricians who do minor stuff, and they charge a lot for it and it doesn't take them a lot of time..

I know we all get the Hep B vaccine, that's why I put Hep C. There is no vaccine for Hep C, and it's the most common bloodbourne infection in the USA. And the chance of getting HIV from a needlestick is about 0.3%.. Probably greater than the rate of death from covid

 

[New_Vegas]

I am cheap. It’s laminate. The guy said he installed this type of flooring for a lot of medical and dental offices and his clients were very happy with the look and the durability. According to him, not only the material is cheaper, it’s also easier to repair and replace them because unlike the real wood, these laminated pieces are not permanently glued (or nailed) onto the concrete. Since it is just a rented office space, I don’t want to spend too much money on it.

Yeah, it looked like laminate to me. It looks nice but you may have to replace it in 5 years or so.

 

[2TH MVR]

These labor intensive jobs are definitely not suitable for women and small weak men like me. I am only 5’5”…not very athletic….

Come on Charles. This is the internet. You can lie a little on your size. .

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

you will need to do what it takes to succeed, which includes moving to where you are needed, working weekends (or when needed), and working hard.

All things 99% of dental school students aren’t willing to do...

Big Hoss

 

[charlestweed]

But before you go off into generalizations, I know an electrician who installs home theatres exclusively, and this guy is filthy rich. And there definitely are electricians who do minor stuff, and they charge a lot for it and it doesn't take them a lot of time..

I know we all get the Hep B vaccine, that's why I put Hep C. There is no vaccine for Hep C, and it's the most common bloodbourne infection in the USA. And the chance of getting HIV from a needlestick is about 0.3%.. Probably greater than the rate of death from covid

You can be extremely successful in any field. I know a multi-millionaire who owns more than 80 nail salons. The guy has zero college education and has only been in this country for less than 20 years. He’s an extremely rare one. Most nail salon owners make below 6-figure income. Most dentist owners make more than $200k/year.

 

[charlestweed]

Yeah, it looked like laminate to me. It looks nice but you may have to replace it in 5 years or so.

I don’t mind replacing the floor every 5 years because I want the office to look good all the time. It’s much better than the old nasty carpet that this office had before. It’s been 3 years and I am very surprised by how well this laminate floor has withstood the heavy foot traffic (I have 6-8 assistants and I see 60-80 patients a day). I think it’ll last longer than 5 years. It should be easy to replace..... any experienced handyman should be able to do this on a 2-day weekend.

 

[charlestweed]

Come on Charles. This is the internet. You can lie a little on your size. .

That’s an average height for an Asian guy. I am still taller than Michael J Fox ……..and am only 2” shorter than Tom Cruise.

 

[charlestweed]

All things 99% of dental school students aren’t willing to do...

Big Hoss

With $4-500k debt, I don’t think they’ll have any other choices. Working hard is the only way to get themselves out of this financial mess. Maybe I should just let my kids take out loans for their education so they’ll learn the value of hard work.

 

[D1Bound]

All things 99% of dental school students aren’t willing to do...

Big Hoss

I'm here trying to figure out how I'm going to moonlight when I start my mil pay back time. The hustler students are still out there. We are few, but we exist.

 

[TanMan]

I don’t mind replacing the floor every 5 years because I want the office to look good all the time. It’s much better than the old nasty carpet that this office had before. It’s been 3 years and I am very surprised by how well this laminate floor has withstood the heavy foot traffic (I have 6-8 assistants and I see 60-80 patients a day). I think it’ll last longer than 5 years. It should be easy to replace..... any experienced handyman should be able to do this on a 2-day weekend.

Laminate is great, pretty cheap per square foot, and easy to maintain. I started off with laminate and upgraded later on (even though I didn't have to, just because I like black porcelain tile). If you really want to go long-term cheap, VCT is an unaesthetic alternative, but laminate gives that high end look for dirt cheap prices.

All things 99% of dental school students aren’t willing to do...

Big Hoss

If people are going to take on a relatively good amount of debt, people need to have a plan to pay it back and then some. There's no point in centering your life around paying debt only. That in itself seems like a horribly futile existence.

 

[deleted903013]

If people are going to take on a relatively good amount of debt, people need to have a plan to pay it back and then some. There's no point in centering your life around paying debt only. That in itself seems like a horribly futile existence.

Most predents have almost no plan for debt as they have no concept of debt. Moreover, the current system incentivizes not paying debt off quickly as one can just pay off a minimal amount and save up for the tax bomb in 25 years just kicking that can down the road.

 

[2TH MVR]

There's a few dental assts that work at the DSO I'm employed at that are interested in attending dental school. I brought up the issue of excessive dental school tuition. Not a single one thought about the ramifications of this. One told me that once he is making "dentist money" .... he could pay off any debt.

I then mentioned to all 3 that they should take a look at Student Doctor Network. Plenty of information on the process of applying. Day to day activities for the students. And ....... the issue of excessive tuition at some of these private dental schools. The shocker is that NONE of them had heard about SDN.

SDN should be required reading for any predent.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

SDN should be required reading for any predent.

And they should be forced to follow Big Hoss.

Big Hoss

 

[TanMan]

Most predents have almost no plan for debt as they have no concept of debt. Moreover, the current system incentivizes not paying debt off quickly as one can just pay off a minimal amount and save up for the tax bomb in 25 years just kicking that can down the road.

Yeah, that seems like a horrible plan - trusting the government to discharge your debt and hit you with a tax bill instead... or worst case scenario, leave you with more debt + negative amortization (compounding interest) that goes against your estate upon your death and takes away everything you worked for. The best approach is the hybrid approach - defer debt payments as much as possible until you get your practice up and running. Paying off debt quickly only makes sense under a few conditions such as not having an alternative way to use the money (which every dentist should be looking into setting up an office) and/or massively high interest rates (think 18%+).

There's a few dental assts that work at the DSO I'm employed at that are interested in attending dental school. I brought up the issue of excessive dental school tuition. Not a single one thought about the ramifications of this. One told me that once he is making "dentist money" .... he could pay off any debt.

I then mentioned to all 3 that they should take a look at Student Doctor Network. Plenty of information on the process of applying. Day to day activities for the students. And ....... the issue of excessive tuition at some of these private dental schools. The shocker is that NONE of them had heard about SDN.

SDN should be required reading for any predent.

If everyone took the SDN consensus to heart, probably no one will go into dentistry . However, it will probably enlighten them more into the realities and variables of becoming a profitable dentist.

 

[2TH MVR]

If everyone took the SDN consensus to heart, probably no one will go into dentistry . However, it will probably enlighten them more into the realities and variables of becoming a profitable dentist.

Maybe that's SDN's unspoken mission statement. Convince prospective predents to go into something other than dentistry. Would help with saturation. Right? Cyber manipulation by Russia or China. Or maybe an organization of current dentists. You know how it works. Insert some pre-selected members into the public forum. Propaganda. Maybe comrade @Cold Front , @Big Time Hoosier et al are actually co conspirators working for some foreign or domestic intelligence agency. 🤔

 

[yappy]

You can be extremely successful in any field. I know a multi-millionaire who owns more than 80 nail salons. The guy has zero college education and has only been in this country for less than 20 years. He’s an extremely rare one. Most nail salon owners make below 6-figure income. Most dentist owners make more than $200k/year.

Don't you know that owning nail salons is a saturated field? Plus it takes money to open one. There are corporate nail salons that make it so he cannot own them too. Your friend will make no money. /SDN

 

[D1Bound]

Don't you know that owning nail salons is a saturated field? Plus it takes money to open one. There are corporate nail salons that make it so he cannot own them too. Your friend will make no money. /SDN

Yea all of dentistry is just pointless now. Dentists make penance. They can barely put bread on the table.

 

[TanMan]

Maybe that's SDN's unspoken mission statement. Convince prospective predents to go into something other than dentistry. Would help with saturation. Right? Cyber manipulation by Russia or China. Or maybe an organization of current dentists. You know how it works. Insert some pre-selected members into the public forum. Propaganda. Maybe comrade @Cold Front , @Big Time Hoosier et al are actually co conspirators working for some foreign or domestic intelligence agency. 🤔

LOL, lets not go that far... It's just interesting that successful dentists are telling others not to go into dentistry. Now, if I was a DSO of sorts, I'd be blaring out the propaganda of how it's so difficult to be an owner and that dentistry is great as an associate (and encourage people to get lots of debt + remain as an associate to keep people in a debtor's prison of sorts). I don't think they have to resort to that too much yet as long as they have H1B's to hold international dentists by the balls(or whatever part is delicate).

There will always be spots to be filled in dental schools, regardless if people on SDN choose to go to dentistry or not, as long as the freely available money remains. It just makes it easier for those that choose not to apply for those that did apply. I'm not going to tell people that dentistry is going to hell in a basket, because that's not my experience before and currently. It's been good to me and many others, and there just seems something wrong to tell potential dentists that everything is wrong in dentistry when we're doing well. Hopefully this makes some sense.

The biggest problem we have right now is inflation and whether our purchasing power remains the same or decreases. I don't trust the fed to give us accurate metrics on the rate of inflation. Although I'm seeing an increase in productivity and collections, that is partially offset by the increase in prices of many household and commercial goods.

 

[2TH MVR]

The biggest problem we have right now is inflation and whether our purchasing power remains the same or decreases. increase in prices of many household and commercial goods.

Jeez. I wonder how all those expensive dental schools will make up for this inflation (higher costs)? All the faculty wanting their annual raises.

 

[TanMan]

Jeez. I wonder how all those expensive dental schools will make up for this inflation (higher costs)? All the faculty wanting their annual raises.

It'll go up for sure, but now might be a sweet spot if the tuition doesn't go up faster than inflation.

 

[yappy]

It'll go up for sure, but now might be a sweet spot if the tuition doesn't go up faster than inflation.

Agreed. If someone were to refi their debt to 2-3% or lower then they may actually have a negative interest rate on their loans due to high inflation.

 

[TanMan]

What's interesting is that as long as the interest rates are low and inflation skyrockets, it makes a lot of sense to carry debt as the value of debt decreases with inflation. Keeping cash makes less sense at this time and looking for a storage of value becomes more important until inflation stabilizes. The fundamental assumption here is that income ramps up at the same rate with the inflation.

 

[alexteethdocman]

Where's all the comments about the HPSP program? Lol

Obviously, there are more ways to make a 6 figure income than just becoming a dentist, but if that's your top concern, why did you actually choose dentistry? (I'm actually curious)

Side note: there are tons of kids that go to college every year to get degrees in things that won't make them rich and seem like questionable investments, but if that's what makes them happy, why try to dissuade them? Personally, I think a good portion of predents are aware of the massive debt and the situation is similar to ppl getting undergrad degrees in stuff like philosophy, art or music.

- Just a clueless predent

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Where's all the comments about the HPSP program? Lol

Landing the HPSP is now probably harder than getting into dental school. It would be very unwise to head towards a ridiculously priced school counting on getting the HPSP.

Big Hoss

 

[alexteethdocman]

Landing the HPSP is now probably harder than getting into dental school. It would be very unwise to head towards a ridiculously priced school counting on getting the HPSP.

Big Hoss

Not counting on anything. Also not planning on taking out 600k in loans for dental school. Playing the cards as their dealt (and not applying to overpriced schools )

I'm sure its ridiculously competitive, but there's still potential.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

and not applying to overpriced schools

More people need to do this. It happened in the 80s and schools closed.

Plagued by Falling Enrollment, Dental Schools Close or Cut Back (Published 1987)

www.nytimes.com

Big Hoss

 

[HopefulTexanDDS]

It works for me (I'm older and financially independent), but not for a young grad. It's a dead end situation if you are there FT earning a paycheck

Hi, what do you mean by it being a dead end situation? As in the young grad will have a very hard time paying his/her loans through corporate full-time?

Thank you so much.

 

[HopefulTexanDDS]

I can name 7-10 things right off the top of my head that is threating dentistry

Could you please? Thank you. I'm trying to get a lot of insight before further pursuing.

 

[D1Bound]

Hi, what do you mean by it being a dead end situation? As in the young grad will have a very hard time paying his/her loans through corporate full-time?

Thank you so much.

If someone has 500k+ of student loans, and they have to start repaying 4k-5k+ a month in loans, that is incredibly hard to pull off if you’re making only 120k a year and having things like a house payment, car payment, etc. When a student graduates at 26-28ish you are READY to live a little and spend money. Not being able to do that sucks. You want to make sure you have a decent shovel to dig your way out of the hole, and some people won’t have that with dentistry.
However, if you keep debt reasonable, and can produce enough dentistry to bust out 300k+, well then you’re alright I guess.
Hear me: dentists make a LOT of money if you do the right things. No question about it. You just have to be ready to hustle 5 days a week and some saturdays immediately when you graduate

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

If someone has 500k+ of student loans, and they have to start repaying 4k-5k+ a month in loans, that is incredibly hard to pull off if you’re making only 120k a year

Especially as the US and global economy plunge into a recession...

Big Hoss

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

I'll just accept that all ND is rural haha

I wouldn't for the Fargo-Moorhead area. When I lived there several years ago, I looked up local providers that took my hospital's dental insurance plans. Plenty o' options for generalists and specialists alike. However, starting a scratch practice in, say, places like Grand Forks, Jamestown, Bismarck, Minot, Williston, etc., probably would be a lot easier and more successful when compared to starting one in similar sized towns in other states that have dental schools and are more saturated to begin with. Just my thoughts though.

I'm all about making money. That is a big priority for me. Getting a return on my invest is important. But consider this: Money is only worth so much. Yes, a career is meant to earn you a living. Can an electrician do that? Absolutely. What are you when you've gone through that training? You're an electrician. What are you after you have gone through dental school? You're a dentist. You're a doctor. There is a difference here, and no, it isn't about "prestige." What you're getting with dental school is an experience. This is my core point. Money is one thing. An experience is another. Sure I could have made a lot of money in another career if I had put my mind to it. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to become a doctor AND make a lot of money AND have a good time doing it. Why do some people decide to do an oral surgery program with an MD degree and "waste" the extra years of training and the opportunity cost of ripping wizzies for those "wasted" years? Because they wanted to go to medical school more than they wanted the money. That's just an example. It really is all about perspective and I have learned this lesson in a great way lately.

Speaking on your last line regarding perspective, I am not sure if that is because of military service, or if it was because of something else, but at least for me serving has definitely changed my views on a lot of things, both professionally and personally.

 

[New_Vegas]

If someone has 500k+ of student loans, and they have to start repaying 4k-5k+ a month in loans, that is incredibly hard to pull off if you’re making only 120k a year and having things like a house payment, car payment, etc.

Pump the brakes there.. If you have 500k in student loans, you can't afford to buy a house or a car on a loan. If you have 500k in student loans, you are completely broke and should be renting and driving a beater car if you have to in order to get out of debt.

 

[New_Vegas]

What's interesting is that as long as the interest rates are low and inflation skyrockets, it makes a lot of sense to carry debt as the value of debt decreases with inflation. Keeping cash makes less sense at this time and looking for a storage of value becomes more important until inflation stabilizes. The fundamental assumption here is that income ramps up at the same rate with the inflation.

The only problem with this is that dental salaries are stagnant even as inflation rises.

 

[DocMon16]

If someone has 500k+ of student loans, and they have to start repaying 4k-5k+ a month in loans, that is incredibly hard to pull off if you’re making only 120k a year and having things like a house payment, car payment, etc. When a student graduates at 26-28ish you are READY to live a little and spend money. Not being able to do that sucks. You want to make sure you have a decent shovel to dig your way out of the hole, and some people won’t have that with dentistry.
However, if you keep debt reasonable, and can produce enough dentistry to bust out 300k+, well then you’re alright I guess.
Hear me: dentists make a LOT of money if you do the right things. No question about it. You just have to be ready to hustle 5 days a week and some saturdays immediately when you graduate

I agree with this but I don't think people realize how hard you have to work in order to make 300k annually. Its a tough to do but attainable.

 

[2TH MVR]

Hi, what do you mean by it being a dead end situation? As in the young grad will have a very hard time paying his/her loans through corporate full-time?

Thank you so much.

There is no personal fulfillment working for a Dental Corp. It's a job that pays you money. That's it. Just a job. If all I wanted in life was a "JOB" .... I would have chosen medicine. Over my private practice years .... I purchased a practice. Built 3 more from scratch. And started a practice in a rural area. There were plenty of ups and downs, but the excitement of planning/owning your own small business was worth it. Not to mention the financial benefits of owning an equitable asset.

I work for a DSO now because I wanted a simpler life. I turn 60 in a few months. But for a young person? No way.

You can start out at a DSO and acquire some experience, but those DSOs are designed to make money off of you. Best way to start chipping away at DS debt is to plan on owning a private practice. Maybe do both until you can lose your Corp job.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

There is no personal fulfillment working for a Dental Corp. It's a job that pays you money. That's it. Just a job. If all I wanted in life was a "JOB" .... I would have chosen medicine. Over my private practice years .... I purchased a practice. Built 3 more from scratch. And started a practice in a rural area. There were plenty of ups and downs, but the excitement of planning/owning your own small business was worth it. Not to mention the financial benefits of owning an equitable asset.

I work for a DSO now because I wanted a simpler life. I turn 60 in a few months. But for a young person? No way.

You can start out at a DSO and acquire some experience, but those DSOs are designed to make money off of you. Best way to start chipping away at DS debt is to plan on owning a private practice. Maybe do both until you can lose your Corp job.

There is no personal fulfillment working for any corporation in any capacity, in my opinion. But I agree: you come into work as just another cog in the wheel, easily replaceable. There's a lot of buzzwords too: "here we're a family" and "our staff come first". You've seen them all, and then some. I'd be genuinely surprised if DSO's were any different.

But if DSO's are going to use you, might as well use them. Use them for reps and getting your speed up. Oh, insurances are paying less now per procedure? Get more efficient in your work process, isn't that what TanMan would say? Don't just come in to your DSO and then leave, learn how they operate (if they're efficient) or learn not what to do (if they aren't). Use this knowledge later on down the line when you practice independently. If you start a scratch practice and don't have enough patients to keep you open full-time, augment your income with a part-time gig at your DSO.

Lastly, and I don't think this gets mentioned enough, but you can gain perspective from the DSO life too. If you graduate school and then get a gig at a DSO, and you hate it, once you start your practice you will be mentally better prepared for it. Because every time you have a low in your private practice gig, you can always think to yourself "well, this is a sucky situation/day. BUT, at least it's not as bad as it was when I was at Shady Practices DSO and I had to (*insert crappy aspect of DSO life here*)... yeah, if I can suffer through that and be just fine, I'll be just fine here".

It's funny, because at my current job we have people who complain about our corporate culture, and honestly, for the people who do complain, I don't blame them. They don't know any better because they've never worked anywhere else; they've never had a better or worse job. Where I was before this (military), they REALLY do not care about you and you are as replaceable as anyone else. So with that experience in hand, when people complain in front of me at my current employment, I just internally chuckle. "Yeah, it's not a good situation", I say to myself, "but it's not as bad as it was when I was at (*insert crappy duty station here*)". And with that, I just shrug off all the nonsense more easily, while the other people take it more to heart. Gaining perspective through experience is a powerful tool that doesn't get as much credit as it should, in my opinion.