Defining grades...

[Lieutenant Dan]

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Below 3.0 = Olive Garden Dishwasher
3.0 = Burger King
3.1 = Applebees Waiter
3.2 = Assistant Night-manager at Outback Steakhouse
3.3 = Osteopathic Medicine
3.4 = Osteopathic Medicine
3.5 = Average but MD possibility
3.6 = Good
3.7 = Great!
3.8 = Grand!!
3.9 = Wonderful!!!
4.0 = Suspicious.

 

[nu2004]

^ i lolled.

What is 'life' experience, anyway?

yes, you should be asking yourself this very question.

try working or traveling or both for a couple of years. it makes for a better person and applicant.

 

[JA Prufrock]

furthermore, i don't agree with you - an "unreasonable" amount of studying is the third flaw i pointed out. the overwhelming majority of medical students become physicians without engaging in an "unreasonable" amount of studying.

I guess that depends on an individual's residency ambitions, but no one gets into the selective residencies without putting in some serious studying hours. There are those who take it easy and go into less competitive residencies, and there's nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with shooting for the top either. It's all a matter of priority, and there's nothing wrong with prioritizing academics.

 

[nu2004]

I guess that depends on an individual's residency ambitions, but no one gets into the selective residencies without putting in some serious studying hours. There are those who take it easy and go into less competitive residencies, and there's nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with shooting for the top either. It's all a matter of priority, and there's nothing wrong with prioritizing academics.

look, we agree. there's nothing wrong with prioritizing academics - in fact i think every medical student should. we're basically arguing semantics. i don't think that an "unreasonable" amount of studying is ever, well, reasonable. it's possible to put in a "substantial" or "significant" amount of studying, still have great grades and test scores, and get that ophthodermocardiosurgical residency. what i believe is implied by the term "unreasonable" is that other aspects of a person's life suffered needlessly. it's "dumb" studying.

 

[CHAINCHOMPER]

Doesn't everyone take Easy classes and fight hard for a notch higher in grades? I don't understand what kind of person would take a class to purposely get a C in. It's not like everyone in a class wants to learn, they are there to get grades and that's that. I hear lots of stories of students going into office hours and "barging and begging" for points, and they are the ones who get letters of recs because the professor knows their name. That's how I got my biochem rec.

 

[nu2004]

Doesn't everyone take Easy classes and fight hard for a notch higher in grades?

no.

I don't understand what kind of person would take a class to purposely get a C in. It's not like everyone in a class wants to learn, they are there to get grades and that's that. I hear lots of stories of students going into office hours and "barging and begging" for points, and they are the ones who get letters of recs because the professor knows their name. That's how I got my biochem rec.

yeah, it's unfortunate that so many students are glassy-eyed grade mongers.

 

[CHAINCHOMPER]

Why not? Wouldn't it be better to take a class you know you would make an A in over a psycho teacher who gives 5% A's

 

[GoldShadow]

Doesn't everyone take Easy classes and fight hard for a notch higher in grades? I don't understand what kind of person would take a class to purposely get a C in. It's not like everyone in a class wants to learn, they are there to get grades and that's that. I hear lots of stories of students going into office hours and "barging and begging" for points, and they are the ones who get letters of recs because the professor knows their name. That's how I got my biochem rec.

I don't take easy classes for the sake of a higher grade. I take classes I want to take, or if I'm required to take them, I usually opt for the more challenging option (eg, honors organic vs regular organic) and do well in those. Even knowing it won't earn me any bonus points in admissions.

 

[nu2004]

Why not? Wouldn't it be better to take a class you know you would make an A in over a psycho teacher who gives 5% A's

i guess, but the student's goal in higher education should not be to get high grades. it should be to master the material and satisfy his or her intellectual curiosity. the good grades should simply be a result of this intellectual fulfillment.

 

[veaselhaufen]

... and had no close friends, no social life, and no sexual experience whatsoever.

people at "major universities" with "real majors" who get 4.0s are some of the most vile, selfish, grade-whoring stereotypical antisocialites imaginable. they fulfill every one of the negative pre-med stereotypes, and usually a lot of the negative stereotypes of humanity.

why are you going to bat for these people? were you one of them?

When you say something this ignorant it is flattering to people like myself who have carried 4.0's, go to major universities in hard majors, have personalities, haven't significantly sacrificed anything to maintain grades and have not been competitive or cutthroat with anyone at any point. Thank you!

Maybe I'll add more top ten schools 🙂

 

[nu2004]

When you say something this ignorant it is flattering to people like myself who have carried 4.0's, go to major universities in hard majors, have personalities, haven't significantly sacrificed anything to maintain grades and have not been competitive or cutthroat with anyone at any point. Thank you!

Maybe I'll add more top ten schools 🙂

stagflation.

i mean, pat yourself on the back. just know that you'll encounter skepticism from time to time.

 

[Dazedinvt]

Yup, accepted out-of-state to an MD school in the top 25.

Guess life experience DOES count for something.

so does your major and the difficulty of the classes you took. It's silly to equate a 3.3 bio-major to a 3.3 engineering major. I'm not saying the material is harder but engineering profs feel no need to assign A's or curve. no one in my class had a 4.0, there were profs that just didn't give A's.

 

[werd]

When you say something this ignorant it is flattering to people like myself who have carried 4.0's, go to major universities in hard majors, have personalities, haven't significantly sacrificed anything to maintain grades and have not been competitive or cutthroat with anyone at any point. Thank you!

Maybe I'll add more top ten schools 🙂

ditto to that sentiment. some people can just do it without taking the easy road, or giving up social life, or being un-swell towards others. usually you don't even know these people are rocking the 4.0 because 1) they don't mention it and 2) you'd never guess it.
actually, it's my observation that the cut-throaters are typically the second-tier performers, ie the 3.85's that just "have to" get a few more A's. i think many 4.0's (or near-4.0's) fly under the radar bc they are normal college kids who just happen to have a hell of a knack for testing and school. this happens in med school too.. several of our classmates were "outed" as having the top 5 class ranks at the end of second year (for an honors society induction), and many in the class were shocked that "xyz did so well. they're so nice and laid back."

 

[Kaustikos]

Below 3.0 = Olive Garden Dishwasher
3.0 = Burger King
3.1 = Applebees Waiter
3.2 = Assistant Night-manager at Outback Steakhouse
3.3 = Osteopathic Medicine
3.4 = Osteopathic Medicine
3.5 = Average but MD possibility
3.6 = Good
3.7 = Great!
3.8 = Grand!!
3.9 = Wonderful!!!
4.0 = Suspicious.

After reading this, I quickly enrolled in 5 classes and proceeded to fail them so that I could marginally deflate my grade to a 3.1. Where do I sign?👍

 

[nevercold]

stagflation.

i mean, pat yourself on the back. just know that you'll encounter skepticism from time to time.

Stagflation is an economic term for stagnant salaries and/or increasing unemployment while the consumer market (prices) is inflating. Doesn't parallel very well to academics. If it did, I would imagine the stagnant salaries would refer to the grade environment (what the agent--i.e. the student--receives) and the inflating prices would refer to the work/intelligence/output required (what the agent--i.e. the student--turns out). I'm pretty sure that you meant quite the opposite.

I took many classes where the percentage of As given was less than 16% (representative of >1 standard deviation above the mean). I took half a dozen upper level Spanish courses and courses in just about every area of the university. Your stereotyping just doesn't pan out at all. I just wish you'd stop trying to insult other people you don't know just to make yourself feel less inadequate. There's nothing wrong with a 3.8 or a 3.9 relative to a 4.0. Anyone can recognize that a bad week here or there or a really bad professor or just a small slip on a big assignment can smash that 4.0.

I can't imagine ever being able to run a mile in less than 6 minutes (7 minutes is my cap) or throw a football 70 yards (50 is my best), but I know that there are people that can and that their achievements are a product of natural ability and working towards a goal. Would you suggest that pro sports players are socially incompetent, boring people with no diversity of interest because they are also at a very high level of achievement and that level requires hard work? "Sure, college sports players are okay, but there's something suspicious about the guy who makes it to the pros!" It's ridiculous and is something you need to get past quickly because as you move on to medical school, the people you are around only get smarter.

 

[nu2004]

Stagflation is an economic term for stagnant salaries and/or increasing unemployment while the consumer market (prices) is inflating. Doesn't parallel very well to academics.

right, i understand. i'm applying the term - sarcastically - to describe what i see as the simultaneous increase of grades and decrease of rigor (the loose analogy is being made to rising inflation, decrease in employment)

There's nothing wrong with a 3.8 or a 3.9 relative to a 4.0. Anyone can recognize that a bad week here or there or a really bad professor or just a small slip on a big assignment can smash that 4.0.

i never said there was anything wrong with a 3.8 or a 3.9. i'm saying that anyone with a cum 4.0 has either been cheated by their university or themselves.

i certainly don't feel inadequate... you're the one coming here to talk about what a wonderful student and well-adjusted person you are. i've already made my case explicitly clear. if you don't get it, it's not my fault.

it's not that there's anything wrong with a 4.0, but having one is either a very poor comment on a student's school, or a very poor comment on that person's academic curiosity (read: they took only courses that would not hurt their GPA, begged and battered for points, etc.), or a very poor comment on that person's priorities or life experience.

look, we agree. there's nothing wrong with prioritizing academics - in fact i think every medical student should. we're basically arguing semantics. i don't think that an "unreasonable" amount of studying is ever, well, reasonable. it's possible to put in a "substantial" or "significant" amount of studying, still have great grades and test scores, and get that ophthodermocardiosurgical residency. what i believe is implied by the term "unreasonable" is that other aspects of a person's life suffered needlessly. it's "dumb" studying.

 

[Luxian]

Doesn't everyone take Easy classes and fight hard for a notch higher in grades?

No. I didn't aim to get a C, but when I was taking graduate level environmental chemistry courses with the head of the department and most of the other students were PhD students, that's what I got. In fact, the highest grade any of the undergraduates got (all four of us) was a B-.

Some classes are tough. I took them because I learn the most when I am most challenged. My purpose in school was learning, not maximizing my GPA.

End of story.

P.S. Seriously, bravo to people who worked hard and got the GPA they aimed for. And I don't deny those people can also be wonderful, personable, brilliant folks. I do want to make the point that in med school you don't get to choose the easy classes. If you've padded your GPA, you're gonna be hurting in time.

 

[Lieutenant Dan]

After reading this, I quickly enrolled in 5 classes and proceeded to fail them so that I could marginally deflate my grade to a 3.1. Where do I sign?👍

You want to be a waiter or trying to avoid the dreaded 4.0?

i am somewhat serious about the suspiciousness of the 4.0. i'd rather have a 3.95 so that i'm at least seen as a human and not pre-occupied with numerical rankings.

 

[Kaustikos]

You want to be a waiter or trying to avoid the dreaded 4.0?

i am somewhat serious about the suspiciousness of the 4.0. i'd rather have a 3.95 so that i'm at least seen as a human and not pre-occupied with numerical rankings.

I want to be a waiter. I lack the EC's for that job, so I'm striving for the great gpa/mcat combo to get that position.




and i'm just joking because this thread reeks of subtle, yet obvious e-peen stroking.

 

[nevercold]

i'm saying that anyone with a cum 4.0 has either been cheated by their university or themselves.

That statement is wrong. I challenge you to provide actual support for this.

 

[JA Prufrock]

That statement is wrong. I challenge you to provide actual support for this.

He can't. It's an extremely narrow-minded statement.

 

[CHAINCHOMPER]

No offense, but not everyone who goes to school does it for learning academically. Maybe if you go to those Ivy league schools. Personally, if you wanna learn stuff, pick up an encyclopedia. I know loads of people who go to college for the "college experience", to get good jobs(80% of people) and who wants to party it up instead of entering the real world. I think in all my classes, only 1 or two people actually question the material while everyone else is trying to get a grade(kinda like high school where it's all about getting drunk and getting by school).

 

[xeroun]

I don't see what so crazy about getting a 4.0, I mean put in a little effort and it is possible to get it and still have a life, you just need good time management really. Also don't take any 7:30 am labs you will be good.

 

[nevercold]

No offense, but not everyone who goes to school does it for learning academically. Maybe if you go to those Ivy league schools. Personally, if you wanna learn stuff, pick up an encyclopedia. I know loads of people who go to college for the "college experience", to get good jobs(80% of people) and who wants to party it up instead of entering the real world. I think in all my classes, only 1 or two people actually question the material while everyone else is trying to get a grade(kinda like high school where it's all about getting drunk and getting by school).

Then those people should do their research and realize that a significant number of college students are not completing their degrees in 4 years and often not even within 6 years. Those students going to college for the "college experience" tend to end up spending tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to end up making the same amount of money as their peers who entered employment directly out of high school and either got an associate's degree or completed another vocational training program or simply gained on-the-job experience. The advantage of a college degree is seen most by students either going on to complete a graduate/professional degree or that complete degrees in just a few fields like engineering.

 

[TheBlueBlazer]

I really cannot believe this thread. This goes to show why despite the fact that you're singing your own praises about how socially adept you all are, a great deal of you suck at life and I will not be your friend in medical school and I still wouldn't if you paid me.

I did not finish with a stellar GPA and I'm not here to whine about why I studied my butt off to get B's in a tough program or say "I'll get you guys, just you wait and see" but rather to ask you to all open your damn eyes a little. The way that many are being condescending and blatantly insulting to those who didn't finish with a high GPA just goes to show that you're the same stick-up-the-a$$ pre-meds that nobody likes, and will likely become stick-up-the-a$$ doctors who suck with their patient despite how hard you work to convince yourself that you're not. A little bit of tact goes a long way.

 

[flip26]

He can't. It's an extremely narrow-minded statement.

It's also a little thing called jealousy.

I have a high GPA, but not a 4.0, and I admire people who pull it off.

We all enter college with a clean slate, and only a very few make it through the 4 years without a single blemish on their GPA. For med school apps, it is just one factor, though, and if the applicant with a 4.0 is a robot, he will be exposed by the process...take care of your own grades, don't worry about (or be jealous of) the success of others...

Finally, while I admire the 4.0, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between a 3.9X and a 4.0, and my reading of the MSAR seems to indicate the same as far as med school app success at different GPA levels...looking at the GPA graphs, it seems to start flattening out above a 3.9, indicating to me that all else being equal, there is not much added value to having a 4.0 versus, say, a 3.92 or so...

 

[JA Prufrock]

Finally, while I admire the 4.0, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between a 3.9X and a 4.0, and my reading of the MSAR seems to indicate the same as far as med school app success at different GPA levels...looking at the GPA graphs, it seems to start flattening out above a 3.9, indicating to me that all else being equal, there is not much added value to having a 4.0 versus, say, a 3.92 or so...

This is absolutely correct. The difference between an A and B sometimes is just a matter of bad luck or other unfortunate circumstances. No big deal. I just think it's kind of ridiculous that some people think if you have a 4.0 you must be a leper or something.

 

[nu2004]

That statement is wrong. I challenge you to provide actual support for this.

I challenge you to disprove it.

It's an opinion. This is an internet forum. You're partial on this issue, and as such you aren't well-disposed to participate in this discussion.

It's also a little thing called jealousy.

Jealousy? I'm the happiest person in the world; I couldn't possibly be jealous of anyone else.

Everyone likes to get up in arms and take things on SDN so seriously. I post in hyperbole when the pre-med mindset (an ideology against which it is my privilege to rage) is particularly inflamed in a thread.

Summary: there's a confluence of elements at a 4.0 - at least one of them is sinister.

 

[flip26]

I challenge you to disprove it.

It's an opinion. This is an internet forum. You're partial on this issue, and as such you aren't well-disposed to participate in this discussion.



Jealousy? I'm the happiest person in the world; I couldn't possibly be jealous of anyone else.

Everyone likes to get up in arms and take things on SDN so seriously. I post in hyperbole when the pre-med mindset (an ideology against which it is my privilege to rage) is particularly inflamed in a thread.

Summary: there's a confluence of elements at a 4.0 - at least one of them is sinister.

You lose people with this last comment. There is nothing "sinister" about a student maintaining a 4.0 GPA throughout college. This is particularly true for a pre-med...take the case of the applicant who majored in one of the so-called "easier" majors - well, as a pre-med, he still has to take the 8 pre-reqs with labs - and if he graduates with a 4.0, then obviously he made a 4.0 in the pre-reqs...

Given how important applying to med school is for you, did YOU make a 4.0 in the pre-reqs...no A minuses, and certainly nothing less...is your BCPM a 4.0...I don't know of any pre-meds at my school with a BCPM of 4.0...

Whatever...

 

[werd]

I challenge you to disprove it.[/img]

the onus is always on the person asserting a claim. the pattern of "i assert X; X is implicitly true because you cannot refute it" is an intellectual red flag.

 

[nu2004]

You lose people with this last comment. There is nothing "sinister" about a student maintaining a 4.0 GPA throughout college. This is particularly true for a pre-med...take the case of the applicant who majored in one of the so-called "easier" majors - well, as a pre-med, he still has to take the 8 pre-reqs with labs - and if he graduates with a 4.0, then obviously he made a 4.0 in the pre-reqs...

Given how important applying to med school is for you, did YOU make a 4.0 in the pre-reqs...no A minuses, and certainly nothing less...

Whatever...

i'm not being critical of people with good grades. i'm being critical of a method (begging, fighting, selecting classes because a high grade is likely, dropping classes after a bad exam), AND/OR a system (grade inflation, drop in rigor). i think there's something questionable about a method AND/OR a system that culminates in a 4.0.

a scale is most useful when there is no observed value at its extremes. it allows data points to be effectively measured against one another. the grading system in this country is imperfect, in part because it varies so widely across postsecondary educational institutions, and in part because of the woeful incidence of grade inflation.

i don't understand the last part of your post. the process is over for me.

 

[nu2004]

the onus is always on the person asserting a claim.

haha, not on the internets!

 

[werd]

haha, not on the internets!

i stand by that statement, and challenge you to disprove it.

 

[flip26]

i'm not being critical of people with good grades. i'm being critical of a method (begging, fighting, selecting classes because a high grade is likely, dropping classes after a bad exam), AND/OR a system (grade inflation, drop in rigor). i think there's something questionable about a method AND/OR a system that culminates in a 4.0.

a scale is most useful when there is no observed value at its extremes. it allows data points to be effectively measured against one another. the grading system in this country is imperfect, in part because it varies so widely across postsecondary educational institutions, and in part because of the woeful incidence of grade inflation.

i don't understand the last part of your post. the process is over for me.

Dude, there are not that many people floating around with 4.0s, especially not in the sciences or among pre-meds. Just look at the highly unreliable MDApps and you don't even see many...and people who post here on SDN don't report that many...

If 4.0s were a dime a dozen, you might have a point about grade inflation, devalued grades, etc.

But it just isn't the case - 4.0s are pretty darn rare based on everything I have seen. Nothing sinister about it...it is a combination of skill, perserverance, and a degree of luck...

 

[nu2004]

i stand by that statement, and challenge you to disprove it.

🙄

 

[nu2004]

But it just isn't the case - 4.0s are pretty darn rare based on everything I have seen. Nothing sinister about it...it is a combination of skill, perserverance, and a degree of luck...

we're both working on anecdotal evidence, so i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. i respect your view.

 

[CHAINCHOMPER]

ONe thing i don't get tho...why would dropping classes after a bad grade be a negative thing? Isn't that good so that you won't get a C/D/F? I still don't get why people want to get C's in a class for the sake of learning over an A while walking out the same when you came in......

 

[nu2004]

ONe thing i don't get tho...why would dropping classes after a bad grade be a negative thing? Isn't that good so that you won't get a C/D/F? I still don't get why people want to get C's in a class for the sake of learning over an A while walking out the same when you came in......

i doubt that anyone WANTS to get a C... motivations for staying in a course stem from differences in philosophy, i guess.

 

[flip26]

i doubt that anyone WANTS to get a C... motivations for staying in a course stem from differences in philosophy, i guess.

Dropping classes can get expensive if you pay by semester hour, or if you drop enough classes that it forces you to do an extra term...also, there are repercussions with some student loans and grants if you drop below full time status...

 

[soccerrule1]

I go to a different UW and we have +/-

Interesting, so what are your grades for A+ or A- or B+?

Madison is A=4.0, AB=3.5, B=3, etc.