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Here is a list of all current MSTP students. (a subset, but probably representative)
Seems like a pretty good spread.
Here is a list of all current MSTP students. (a subset, but probably representative)
wow i wanna know how amazing those other directly from college applicants are.
Personally, I'm curious about the 33 who didn't take a year off and still got into Yale. Those guys are, IMO, pretty unique applicants (though I anticipate they're from HYPSM or related top schools)
Yup, primary care is for the rest of us plebians.Also, Yale does not intend to train primary care providers. The Yale System is designed to produce the next generation of physician-investigators who will populate medical school faculties. A thesis is required for graduation and it has been that way for decades. Clearly, it isn't the place for people who are interested solely in primary care.
Yup, primary care is for the rest of us plebians.
Ivy is a blanket statement to include all top schools.
Here is a list of all current MSTP students. (a subset, but probably representative)
The latest AAMC statistics reports that the average med school matriculant has a household income of well over 100k+. With the recent AMCAS changes with regards to reporting a med school applicant's socioeconomic status, I'd be interested in seeing if there were any changes with regards to the socioeconomic composition of med school matriculants or lack thereof.
I suspect that this has led to an increase in household income. Most gap year activities are expensive and funding is often very competitive. Not everyone can afford post-bacs or their living expenses. Just a hunch though.
High income households are over-represented among medical students nationally. That is undisputed and I doubt that it has changed much. On the other hand, there are many gap year activities that are not expensive. You don't have to be rich to do Teach for America (it pays a teacher's salary) or Peace Corps (modest stipend for living expenses) , or join the military,(modest salary), or be employed in a lab as a tech for a year or two. Then, too, there are those who have worked in a well paid profession for a few years before switching gears and doing a post-bac with savings and loans.
Teach for American and Peace Corps have essentially become "notch in your gunbelt" activities.High income households are over-represented among medical students nationally. That is undisputed and I doubt that it has changed much. On the other hand, there are many gap year activities that are not expensive. You don't have to be rich to do Teach for America (it pays a teacher's salary) or Peace Corps (modest stipend for living expenses) , or join the military,(modest salary), or be employed in a lab as a tech for a year or two. Then, too, there are those who have worked in a well paid profession for a few years before switching gears and doing a post-bac with savings and loans.
what a ridiculous statementTeach for American and Peace Corps have essentially become "notch in your gunbelt" activities.
Are you saying top tier medical students are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts vs. trying to get into med school?what a ridiculous statement
Teach for American and Peace Corps have essentially become "notch in your gunbelt" activities.
For UPenn 2013 entering class:
Class Size:
Demographics:
- 168 Matriculants
- 46% Female
- 54% Male
Average Age:
- 19% PA Residents
- 81% Out-of-State Residents
- 45% Black, Hispanic, Asian, or Native Americans
- 60% Non-traditional students
- 14% Combined Degree (MD/PhD)
Academics:
- Average Age is ~23 (20-32)
Median MCAT:
- VR 11
- PS 13
- BS 13
- Median GPA 3.86
- 71% Science Majors
- 29% Non-Science Majors
Hopefully this encourages more people to take some time off. I think most people will actually benefit from it independent from all this medical stuff. It's just good for your development as a person imo.
Harvard:
Make-up of the incoming class:
Members of the Fall 2013 HMS entering class::
- from 72 undergraduate institutions, 32 states and 8 foreign countries
- 80% of whom majored in the sciences
- 54% are women, 46% are men
- 18% are from groups that are traditionally underrepresented in medicine
- the class ranges in age from 21-32
- average GPA: 3.8
- average MCAT scores were:
- Verbal-11.2
Physical Science-12.55
Biological Science-12.61
Northwestern: http://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/admissions/process/class-profile.html (more details at link)
Class of 2017:
- 7000+ applicants
- 91 Men, 63 Women
- 71 different undergaduate majors
- 32 different languages spoken - most common are Chinese, Spanish, French
- 22 (14.2%) Non-traditional students (defined as 2+ years off before medical school)
- Age range: 21-31
- 75 undergraduate universities
- 33 states, 10 foreign countries
- Average stats: cGPA = 3.82, sGPA = 3.79, MCAT = 35.3
Hopefully this encourages more people to take some time off. I think most people will actually benefit from it independent from all this medical stuff. It's just good for your development as a person imo.
I cannot agree with this more. I think nowadays, everyone is so focused on improving their application and get carried away that they forget to "live" a life. Gap years not only give you more time to boost your application, but most importantly, it can help you grow a lot as a person. I don't know if everyone would agree with this but I am a very strong advocate of living your life to the fullest. You only get to live once, so why not try to make the most of it?
I've taken one gap year and I am starting school at a top 20 in a few weeks. But damn I wish I can take another year off because there's so much more I want to do!!! Yes, I continued to work in a lab and improved my application, but what else did I do? I pursued many of my other dreams and interests. I became a licensed bartender, I started to learn another foreign language, I skydived, I backpacked across Europe to more than 15 countries, I spent a lot of time with my family and friends, I attended professional sports games, I watched a lot of TV shows and read a lot of novels, and you bet I partied like I've never been before. In summary, I lived, I pursued my interests, I grew as a person, I experienced things I've never experienced, and I widened my perspective. Why did I do all this? Because I know once medical school starts, I'll never have time to do many of these things again.
Like what Narmerguy says, I encourage everyone to take gap years. We live in such a beautiful world, so enjoy it while you can! There is so much more about life than just working in a lab, or getting publications or improving your applications. Yes, they are extremely important, but don't forget to live a life too!
In fact, I want to say from my personal experiences/observations, top medical schools really admire students who have not only challenged themselves academically and non-academically, but also someone who possess a very positive and "live life to the fullest" attitude. Out of the 11 interviews I've attended, I have almost never been asked about my three years of research or anything academically related. Besides the generic "why medicine" or "why this school", the rest were all about my background, my interests, my ECs, and my plans for my gap year. I can say quite confidently that all my interviewers left very interested and impressed.
So take gap years folks! I wish I can take more!
While this is good, this is also ridiculous.
Lets think about this from an applicants point of view. You're essentially going to push back your life for another 2+ years, for what? So you can be in your mid 30's coming out of fellowship? That's ridiculous!
Students should be encouraged to grow up during high school and college and not only after.
I'm highly suspect of this kind of thing, because it honestly provides a cheap workforce for basic science labs, clinical researchers, etc. In my mind, it's akin to forcing people to go through the revolving 'internship' door.
Show me the data that says these students have better board scores, better success in residency, etc. Students should be judged on how much they've done given where they are, this idea that kids aren't mature enough when they get out of undergrad is part of the so called 'adult-child' syndrome plaguing society. I think that the first part of this is accurate, but whatever.
What is the justification for more non-trads i.e. new trads? It's just a good way to put people in the hole, both financially and socially, for longer.
And all this coming from someone that's been out of school 4 years and is applying now.
(Obviously the above doesn't apply to career changers and those that followed things like athletics etc. after school, but from what I've seen with other things these trends will eventually catch up to other schools. Just you wait.)
Non-traditional applicants have become the traditional applicants.
EDIT: I'll put this over here as well to stay on the first page
For UPenn 2013 entering class:
Class Size:
Demographics:
- 168 Matriculants
- 46% Female
- 54% Male
Average Age:
- 19% PA Residents
- 81% Out-of-State Residents
- 45% Black, Hispanic, Asian, or Native Americans
- 60% Non-traditional students
- 14% Combined Degree (MD/PhD)
Academics:
- Average Age is ~23 (20-32)
Median MCAT:
- VR 11
- PS 13
- BS 13
- Median GPA 3.86
- 71% Science Majors
- 29% Non-Science Majors
Harvard:
Make-up of the incoming class:
Members of the Fall 2013 HMS entering class::
- from 72 undergraduate institutions, 32 states and 8 foreign countries
- 80% of whom majored in the sciences
- 54% are women, 46% are men
- 18% are from groups that are traditionally underrepresented in medicine
- the class ranges in age from 21-32
- average GPA: 3.8
- average MCAT scores were:
- Verbal-11.2
Physical Science-12.55
Biological Science-12.61
Northwestern: http://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/admissions/process/class-profile.html (more details at link)
Class of 2017:
- 7000+ applicants
- 91 Men, 63 Women
- 71 different undergaduate majors
- 32 different languages spoken - most common are Chinese, Spanish, French
- 22 (14.2%) Non-traditional students (defined as 2+ years off before medical school)
- Age range: 21-31
- 75 undergraduate universities
- 33 states, 10 foreign countries
- Average stats: cGPA = 3.82, sGPA = 3.79, MCAT = 35.3
Gap years are the hottest thing. Like adopting a child from Malawi.So 60% of incoming students are wasting more time with gap years. I think this hurts the medical profession. It isn't like these people are out there making tons of money to pay for medical school. They have less time to work after school and residency and more debt. Medicine is becoming much worse in terms of a financial decision. I don't think I'd go for it now without someone else willing to foot the bill.
I suspect most "non-traditionals" in these stats to be students who apply at the end of senior year, meaning they have a gap year but have already applied. Which is likely much more common than 2+ years off.
You don't think everyone has the desire and/or resources to "backpack across Europe to more than 15 countries" and bartend while watching a lot of TV shows and partying?
Pretty sure LizzyM said it was 2+ years for Yale. Not sure about the others.
Defining someone taking a single gap year as a non-trad is kind of meh.
I never said that and it isn't in the #1 post in this thread. I don't know what definition is used at Yale.Pretty sure LizzyM said it was 2+ years for Yale. Not sure about the others.
Defining someone taking a single gap year as a non-trad is kind of meh.
It appears to be as little as one year off according to some med schools and 2+ years after college at one school (NU).at the risk of sounding silly,
what constitutes as non-traditional?
Not sure where you got that from what I wrote, so... good for you?
ohhhh so traditional is going straight in after undergradIt appears to be as little as one year off according to some med schools and 2+ years after college at one school (NU).
So we look at 60% (undefined) non-trads at Penn and 14% at NU defined as 2 years or more out of college. Assuming the two classes to be roughly the same, that would suggest that about three-quarters of "non-trads" have taken 1 year off and 25% of the non-trads have taken 2 yrs or more off (this smaller pool would include Teach for America, Peace Corps and career changers).
While this is good, this is also ridiculous.
Lets think about this from an applicants point of view. You're essentially going to push back your life for another 2+ years, for what? So you can be in your mid 30's coming out of fellowship? That's ridiculous!
Students should be encouraged to grow up during high school and college and not only after.
I'm highly suspect of this kind of thing, because it honestly provides a cheap workforce for basic science labs, clinical researchers, etc. In my mind, it's akin to forcing people to go through the revolving 'internship' door.
Show me the data that says these students have better board scores, better success in residency, etc. Students should be judged on how much they've done given where they are, this idea that kids aren't mature enough when they get out of undergrad is part of the so called 'adult-child' syndrome plaguing society. I think that the first part of this is accurate, but whatever.
What is the justification for more non-trads i.e. new trads? It's just a good way to put people in the hole, both financially and socially, for longer.
And all this coming from someone that's been out of school 4 years and is applying now.
(Obviously the above doesn't apply to career changers and those that followed things like athletics etc. after school, but from what I've seen with other things these trends will eventually catch up to other schools. Just you wait.)
I'm having too much fun with this so I will continue spamming stats.
Boston University (Very helpful link): http://www.bumc.bu.edu/admissions/welcome/classprofile/
I'll just post one particular image:
Tufts: http://medicine.tufts.edu/Education/MD-Programs/Doctor-of-Medicine/Class-Profile
Geographic RepresentationMA: 50
Other New England: 39
NY: 27
NJ: 21
Total Northeast Region: 137
CA: 21
Other: 46
Racial/Ethnic Diversity
Under-represented in Medicine (URM): 17
Black or African American: 8
Hispanic: 5
Native American or Alaskan Native: 2
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 2
White: 118
Asian: 46
Other (Self-Reported): 3
Not Reported: 23
Gender
Male: 94
Female: 110
That's what premed2000 wrote when explaining why everyone should take a gap year. I tried to compliment your post while demonstrating the ridiculousness of what he/she? wrote.
It's not for you to judge what a person considers a worthwhile use of their time
No one can tell me that I didn't benefit from my [not] 2 years after graduation or, crazier still, that I'm somehow worse off because of it
This is the #1 confusion that I notice from people who are against gap years (which is a weird position in the first place, but I'll get to that). Your life does not "begin" when you start medical school, or when you finish your medical training.
That's true. When I was at Wash U they told us that the acceptance rates between trads and non-trads were virtually identical (a very slight advantage for trads but this could be because some non-trads have a hole that they need to plug in their app.)However, at the end of the day, medical schools choose who they do and do not want to be a part of their class. It seems that many of them appreciate what students who have taken time off bring to the table. Evidently they've done well enough that schools continue to accept these students that benefit from certain qualities that they value. Maybe that's maturity, maybe that's experience, maybe that's knowledge and practical skills--I'm sure it varies.
No one is forcing students to do this, in fact, most of the pressures are to do the exact opposite.
Lol. Chill dood. I don't know why you are seemingly attacking my post. All I'm saying is that's how I spent my gap year and that I would encourage students to take gap years to pursue their own individual interests. Because the chances are, you are not going to have those time to pursue them once you start medical school. And it just happened that backpacking, traveling, learning to bartend and partying, and all those things I mentioned ARE my interests. They made my life more colorful, they are things I find worthwhile, and they are things that has expanded my perspective. If I had started medical schools last year, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to accomplish those goals.
I am already going to spend the rest of my life in hospitals and in labs doing something I love. So to me, it was worth taking a year off to take a breather, and to do things that I wouldn't have been able to do. And you bet I've wanted to become a doctor and go to medical school since as long as I can remember, and I've worked very hard to earn it. But I also have other goals in life that I want to accomplish. Everyone has their interests and goals, and it is up to them how they want to reach their goals.
If you are dead set on med school and finishing it ASAP, then by all means do it. I am not against it. And I've had my fair share of experience with pre-med advisors like the ones you've mentioned. All I'm saying is if you have other goals in life you want to accomplish/do before starting med school, take gap years.
So if you don't agree with my opinion, we can agree to disagree. Don't go on saying how ridiculous what I did was or the reasons behind why I encourage people to take years off. Because you are going to be surprised at how many med students took years off simply to pursue their personal interests, and not because they are "unsure" about their career path.
EDIT: just read Narmerguy's new post and I cannot have put it better.
One thing I'm finding remarkable is the number of incoming classes where women outnumber men. Discuss.
This is the #1 confusion that I notice from people who are against gap years (which is a weird position in the first place, but I'll get to that).
One thing I'm finding remarkable is the number of incoming classes where women outnumber men. Discuss.
This makes me think that eventually, and maybe very, very soon, coming straight from college will seem like a hidden disadvantage. Sorta like not having any research. You can obviously get in without any research, but almost everyone has it, so it's almost like you should too...
This makes me think that eventually, and maybe very, very soon, coming straight from college will seem like a hidden disadvantage. Sorta like not having any research. You can obviously get in without any research, but almost everyone has it, so it's almost like you should too...