Dental school debt 400k

[Realitydentalstudent]

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I am a dental student at a 400k private dental school. I enrolled in this school STRICTLY on the basis that I had external monetary help to fund my tuition to a point where my debt would be halved without any interest. I would not have attended dental school and instead choose a different career path if I wasn't lucky enough to be guaranteed external help. Despite this, prior to acceptance I had calculated my potential salary (low balled numbers) minus debt repayment and other costs such as housing, insurance, food etc to MAKE sure I would have a lifestyle which I thought was worth my time in dental school.

I was surprised to hear that most students were maxing out loans of 6.8% interest as I had expected most to have monetary help from parents to attend this school. By the time you graduate these students will unfortunately be over 420k in debt even with frugal living.

To me the opportunity cost is way too high when you get up to those ranges imo.

What I was SHOCKED with was the fact that a lot of the students did not fully understand the financial decision that they had made. Alot of them were unaware of their interest rate on the money that they had borrowed, whether it was fixed interest or not and also unsure interest is incurred from day 1 of dental school and not just started after you graduate.

Whats even MORE SHOCKING was the fact that despite spending countless hours on their application to each school, they had not even spent 30 minutes calculating their potential salary minus monthly loan repayment amount and other costs (such as food, housing, malpractice, health, life insurances). This only takes 30minutes and to ignore this when you take out a half a million dollar loan at 6.8% interest is personally unthinkable to me.

Then I realized that it is THESE TYPES OF PERSONALITIES common in younger kids that private dental schools capitalize on; the type of people who think
"Let's just go for it"
"oh it will be alright in the end",
"oh they wouldn't charge us that type of tuition if we could not pay it back"

Ummm WAKE UP CALL, the schools COULD NOT CARE LESS if you become financially successful or not. They are only concerned about you passing the boards to get you licensed, they could not care less if you have to live a lifestyle of a student for the next 10-15 years just to repay some loans. Also because it is a government loan, the schools are unaffected by your ability to pay off debt because they have already got their tuition money, debt collection is now a government problem.

So PLEASE I urge you guys to do your calculations before you matriculate and ask yourself if it is worth it. If you are taking out a 400k loan you could be living like a student FOR A LONG TIME (10-15 yeas). Why would you work your butt off for 8 years of your precious 20s just to live like a student until you are 35? A lot these poor souls would not have attended dental school if they knew the situation was like this. And when your making a half a million dollar decision don't "just go for it", calculate EVERY detail as accurately as possible.

Mind you there are success stories of general dentists making 400k+ but this is the exception and not the norm, there certainly is not enough space for everyone with 400k loans to be making that kind of money or even the kind of money required to live a "doctor lifestyle".

I am creating this thread to warn you guys to think VERY CAREFULLY before you make the leap as I feel the schools are PREYING on 22 year old fresh grads who have no idea about the financial burden of debt. And why would they? They have been working $9/hr summer jobs and had not made a single loan repayment in their lives. They have been taught to trust educational systems and to think that these institutions are looking out for the students interests as well....this could not be further from the truth.

This is such a sensitive issue to me because most of my dental classmates are maxing out their loans and when they say stuff like "we'll be alright", "but we make a lot of money". I leave the conversation at that because I don't have the courage to tell them that their future might not be what they expect especially considering I am in a different financial situation.

 

[Silent Cool]

I am a dental student at a 400k private dental school. I enrolled in this school STRICTLY on the basis that I had external monetary help to fund my tuition to a point where my debt would be halved without any interest. I would not have attended dental school and instead choose a different career path if I wasn't lucky enough to be guaranteed external help. Despite this, prior to acceptance I had calculated my potential salary (low balled numbers) minus debt repayment and other costs such as housing, insurance, food etc to MAKE sure I would have a lifestyle which I thought was worth my time in dental school.

I was shocked to hear that most students were maxing out loans of 6.8% interest, starting from first year. By the time you graduate these students will easily be over 420k in debt even with frugal living.

The opportunity cost is way too high when you get up to those ranges imo.

What I was EVEN MORE SHOCKED of was the inability of these students to understand the financial burden that they were undertaking. Alot of them were even unaware of their interest rate on the money that they had borrowed or clueless to the fact that interest is incurred from day 1 of dental school and not just started after you graduate.

Whats even MORE SHOCKING was the fact that despite spending countless hours on their application to each school, they had not even spent 30 minutes calculating their potential salary minus monthly loan repayment amount and other costs (such as food, housing, malpractice, health, life insurances). This only takes 30minutes and to ignore this when you take out a half a million dollar loan at 6.8% interest is unthinkable to me.

Then I realized that it is THESE TYPES OF PERSONALITIES that private dental schools attract; the type of people who think
"oh it will be alright in the end",
"oh they wouldn't charge us that type of tuition if we could not pay it back"

Ummm WAKE UP CALL, the schools COULD NOT CARE LESS if you become financially successful or not. They are only concerned about you passing the boards to get you licensed, they could not care less if you have to live a lifestyle of a student for the next 10-15 years just to repay some loans. Also because it is a government loan, the schools are unaffected by your ability to pay off debt because they have already got their tuition money, debt collection is now a government problem.

So PLEASE I urge you guys to do your calculations before you matriculate and ask yourself if it is worth it. If you are taking out a 400k loan chances are you will be living like a student FOR A LONG TIME (10-15 yeas). Why would you work your butt off for 8 years of your precious 20s just to live like a student until you are 40?

Mind you there are success stories of general dentists making 400k+ but this is the exception and not the norm, there certainly is not enough space for everyone with 400k loans to be making that kind of money or even the kind of money required to live a "doctor lifestyle".

I am creating this thread to warn you guys to think VERY CAREFULLY before you make the leap as I feel the schools are PREYING on 22 year old fresh grads who have no idea about the financial burden of debt. And why would they? They have been working $9/hr summer jobs and had not made a single loan repayment in their lives. They have been taught to trust educational systems and to think that these institutions are looking out for the students interests as well....this could not be further from the truth.

What school do you attend?

The other nasty fact is that the government will be increasing interest rates over the next 10 years.

 

[Demilaax]

Interest rate gets fixed once you take out the loan.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

I'd rather not mention the name of the school that I go to as I am pretty sure they frequent the sdn forums and my uncommon finical situation may allow them to identify me. But it is not the most expensive private dental school.

What private dental schools are doing is disgusting and borderline criminal. Tuition and fees close to tripled in the past decade. And no it is not the "better, more expensive technology" that is causing the increase in tuition because you are charged separately for instrument rental and SIM lab fees, which have also increased but more modestly.

Think about this:
You are paying close to 70k in tuition ALONE. Technology fees are covered by SIM lab and instrumental rental so that's 70k per student that goes supposedly into paying the faculty. That's 7 million for a class of 100. Totaling 28 million at any year for all the 4 cohorts. Keeping in mind that the instructors generally are poorly paid compared to private practice and you have to wonder.... Where is this 28million going? If you have 20 full time faculty that's still 1.4million per faculty member but they aren't even paid a fraction of that amount...

WHERE IS ALL THIS MONEY GOING?

The sad part is there will always be applicants willing to pay career crippling amounts to go to these schools, as they have no problem filling first year seats, based on being sold an image of what their future will be like when the reality is much different.

 

[WastedTime]

money goes to run the clinic

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

The price of running a clinic has somehow tripled in less than a decade? Technology and instrument rental fees continue on to 3rd and 4th year so that money is available to run the clinic. In addition the clinic also recoups money for the school mind you since you have 200+ dental students working in the clinic everyday for paying patients. You cannot compare overhead at a clinic to that of private practice btw. No paid oral hygienists, few paid dental assistants, few receptionist for 200+ dental students. My guess would be that the clinic by itself would break even with the overhead.

 

[Silent Cool]

Interest rate gets fixed once you take out the loan.

Right, but each year forward the interest rate on the borrowed amount will increase.

 

[dmdluffy]

Right, but each year forward the interest rate on the borrowed amount will increase.

It does have the potential to increase but it also may stay the same or decrease since the interest rate is tied to the t note.

The price of running a clinic has somehow tripled in less than a decade? Technology and instrument rental fees continue on to 3rd and 4th year so that money is available to run the clinic. In addition the clinic also recoups money for the school mind you since you have 200+ dental students working in the clinic everyday for paying patients. You cannot compare overhead at a clinic to that of private practice btw. No paid oral hygienists, few paid dental assistants, few receptionist for 200+ dental students. My guess would be that the clinic by itself would break even with the overhead.

Decreased state funding and other monies in the last decade = more money needed from else where to cover that short fall. On top of that, many of these schools are either getting new buildings, renovations, and updated equipment yield a higher overhead. While a dental clinic may employ less auxiliaries, dental school clinics are also less efficient which is something you can't neglect when deciding if a clinic is breaking even or not.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

The price of running a clinic has somehow tripled in less than a decade? Technology and instrument rental fees continue on to 3rd and 4th year so that money is available to run the clinic. In addition the clinic also recoups money for the school mind you since you have 200+ dental students working in the clinic everyday for paying patients. You cannot compare overhead at a clinic to that of private practice btw. No paid oral hygienists, few paid dental assistants, few receptionist for 200+ dental students. My guess would be that the clinic by itself would break even with the overhead.

It does have the potential to increase but it also may stay the same or decrease since the interest rate is tied to the t note.



Decreased state funding and other monies in the last decade = more money needed from else where to cover that short fall. On top of that, many of these schools are either getting new buildings, renovations, and updated equipment yield a higher overhead. While a dental clinic may employ less auxiliaries, dental school clinics are also less efficient which is something you can't neglect when deciding if a clinic is breaking even or not.

Good point about the decrease in state funding in respect to state schools but this does not explain why private schools, who never received state funding in the first place, tripled their tuition. Perhaps increased technology has partly to do with it but I am unconvinced that there is ANY legitimate way to explain the inflation of tuition as schools such as LLU who have not updated their facilities immensely in the past decade have also tripled tuition. I agree that dental school clinics are way less efficient than private practice but that is made up for by the sheer number of dental students in limited office space, 200 dental students together would still likely equal the production of under 100 dentists. We see on average 3 patients a day here and in private practice I would expect 6-10 range.

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

At one d-school I was at, the dean said that the tuition would be going up 5% each year (this is the case with a lot of schools). He said that the reason for this is that they increase the salaries of the professors each year.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

At one d-school I was at, the dean said that the tuition would be going up 5% each year (this is the case with a lot of schools). He said that the reason for this is that they increase the salaries of the professors each year.

Haha yes I know which school you are referring to as I interviewed there too. But you see say you have 30 faculty for 400 students paying 70k tuition a year. That is 28 million a year in tuition alone, say the faculty are paid 150k each totaling 4.5 million in salary. A 5% increase for 4.5 million equates to 4.725 million so that is 250k extra that they need to maintain faculty. BUT a 5% increase in 28 million tuition equals 29.4 million or a 1.4 million increase.

So they have increased their income by 1.4 million with the 5% tuition increase but only 250k of that is used to fuel the instructor salary increase.

Sorry for the details but what I'm trying to say is that a 5% increase in the instructor salaries of 30 employees does not equate even remotely closely to a 5% increase in the tuition of 400 students in terms of direct dollar value.

 

[warmbroom]

Mind you there are success stories of general dentists making 400k+ but this is the exception and not the norm, there certainly is not enough space for everyone with 400k loans to be making that kind of money or even the kind of money required to live a "doctor lifestyle".

So many people on sdn bring up this argument. Have you ever wondered why this is the exception and not the norm? There are quite a few reasons, but it basically boils down to most dentists being horrible businessman. True, not every dentist can make $400k+ but it can happen if you are smart about your career.

Too many people on this forum try and scare people away from dentistry with threats of decades of eating Ramen noodles and having to drive a beater car for the rest of their lives. There is plenty of money to be made in dentistry. Understand that yes, it is a ton of debt, and you should limit it as much as possible, but that if you really want a career in dentistry, you will be financially okay as long as you aren't an idiot.

 

[distressstudent]

At this point you can tell me that all the extra money goes to the tooth fairy and I will still believe you.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

So many people on sdn bring up this argument. Have you ever wondered why this is the exception and not the norm? There are quite a few reasons, but it basically boils down to most dentists being horrible businessman. True, not every dentist can make $400k+ but it can happen if you are smart about your career.

Too many people on this forum try and scare people away from dentistry with threats of decades of eating Ramen noodles and having to drive a beater car for the rest of their lives. There is plenty of money to be made in dentistry. Understand that yes, it is a ton of debt, and you should limit it as much as possible, but that if you really want a career in dentistry, you will be financially okay as long as you aren't an idiot.

This is what I see when practicing dentists, physicians, whatever, try to caution pre-___ about the financial realities of their professions. Someone eventually throws in the "I know this guy making 500k" and every pre-___ jumps at that statement and says "well I'll just be that guy and everything will work out." Everyone thinks that they are a special snowflake and will be in that 1% and everyone that isn't just isn't very smart/doesn't work hard enough. No one thinks that they will be average, or heaven forbid, below average.

Not trying to call you out, but I just thought of this phenomenon recently, and your post was a good opening to throw it out there.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

So many people on sdn bring up this argument. Have you ever wondered why this is the exception and not the norm? There are quite a few reasons, but it basically boils down to most dentists being horrible businessman. True, not every dentist can make $400k+ but it can happen if you are smart about your career.

Too many people on this forum try and scare people away from dentistry with threats of decades of eating Ramen noodles and having to drive a beater car for the rest of their lives. There is plenty of money to be made in dentistry. Understand that yes, it is a ton of debt, and you should limit it as much as possible, but that if you really want a career in dentistry, you will be financially okay as long as you aren't an idiot.

Of course it can happen if you are smart with your career but is there enough money in dentistry for it to happen to everyone with 400k plus debt? Not even close. Is there enough money in dentistry for everyone with 400k debt to live the doctor lifestyle within 15 years of graduation. Unlikely. I am not trying to sacre you off, I am just suggesting pre-dents to crunch the numbers in before matriculation to see if it is worth in to them.

Loan repayment calculator: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml
Income tax calculator: http://us.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

This is what I see when practicing dentists, physicians, whatever, try to caution pre-___ about the financial realities of their professions. Someone eventually throws in the "I know this guy making 500k" and every pre-___ jumps at that statement and says "well I'll just be that guy and everything will work out." Everyone thinks that they are a special snowflake and will be in that 1% and everyone that isn't just isn't very smart/doesn't work hard enough. No one thinks that they will be average, or heaven forbid, below average.

.

 

[kenny878]

I'll have no more than 100k worth of debt when i'm done d-school. Good summer job 🙂
I guess living in your parents basement the whole while doesn't hurt either haha

 

[LaughingGas]

USC, NYU, Tufts, both Midwesterns, Western U.. which one of them?

 

[ramborhino]

You mean we can't pay 400K of debt off in the first 4 years making 120K?
In all seriousness I have heard some students doing the math with numbers not far off from this.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

You mean we can't pay 400K of debt off in the first 4 years making 120K?
In all seriousness I have heard some students doing the math with numbers not far off from this.

Making 120k a year leaves you with 87k after tax. 400k at 6.8% for 4 years will require a monthly payment of $9500 a month or $114k a year. So no it is not possible to pay it off in 4 years earning 120k a year.

To pay it off it 4 years you would need to make 160k a year with 100% of your after income tax going towards loan payments. So if you live with your parents and they pay for car, gas, food, malpractice, disability, life and health insurance for you while you do not spend a single dime for 4 years then yes it would be possible but not practical.

 

[ramborhino]

Making 120k a year leaves you with 87k after tax. 400k at 6.8% for 4 years will require a monthly payment of $9500 a month or $114k a year. So no it is not possible to pay it off in 4 years earning 120k a year.

To pay it off it 4 years you would need to make 160k a year with 100% of your after income tax going towards loan payments. So if you live with your parents and they pay for car, gas, food, malpractice, disability, life and health insurance for you while you do not spend a single dime for 4 years then yes it would be possible but not practical.

Yeah not practical at all. Well hey there you go - you provided an escape route for all the people who whine about it endlessly. Though, if I met a dentist who had their parents pay for their gas money (or that lived with them long-term), I would die. Imagine overhearing a dentist answering a call from their mom: "Hey mom, I just got one more patient..be home in an hour for dinner!". Imagine that. You need to cut the umbilical cord at some point.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

This is a more realistic number:

Say with all the insurances involved and living in student standard housing your living expenses yearly are about 25k a year (this is just slightly more than the estimated living expenses for students listed by various schools).
And you make 120k which equates to 87k after tax.
And 62k after living expenses to tackle loans.
Or around 5100 a month for loans.
At 400k 6.8% a repayment of 4900 a month means it will take 9 years.

THIS MEANS LIVING LIKE A STUDENT FOR 9 YEARS OUT OF DENTAL SCHOOL.
This is unrealistic for most people with kids or even for female dental students who want to have kids before 35.
This is the reality of debt.
And these numbers should be made clear before deciding to accept an offer or not

 

[kenny878]

Yeah not practical at all. Well hey there you go - you provided an escape route for all the people who whine about it endlessly. Though, if I met a dentist who had their parents pay for their gas money (or that lived with them long-term), I would die. Imagine overhearing a dentist answering a call from their mom: "Hey mom, I just got one more patient..be home in an hour for dinner!". Imagine that. You need to cut the umbilical cord at some point.

I'd say most people who go through what really is quite a rigorous and trying process in order to become a dentist wouldn't continue sponging off their parents. With ability comes independence. Or at least thats what I would expect

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

ps. I know it sounds like I am trying to scare you guys away from dentistry but this isn't my intention at all. I am encouraging you to crunch numbers to get an idea of the scale of debt you will be in because these private schools sure as heck will avoid bringing it up as an issue. And so many of my classmates put this issue at the back of their heads and go with the "it'll be alright in the end" spew.

My advice is military, state school or parental help.
Even mortgaging a house will help as you can rent out spare bedrooms to cancel out your mortgage payments and potentially have a little left for food. Plus the house prices will increase drastically over the next decade or so hence you could even make some money off it to pay your loans.

 

[kenny878]

how about work for a year or two before school?
I personally know guys my age that make 100k/year on oil rigs and such

 

[warmbroom]

This is what I see when practicing dentists, physicians, whatever, try to caution pre-___ about the financial realities of their professions. Someone eventually throws in the "I know this guy making 500k" and every pre-___ jumps at that statement and says "well I'll just be that guy and everything will work out." Everyone thinks that they are a special snowflake and will be in that 1% and everyone that isn't just isn't very smart/doesn't work hard enough. No one thinks that they will be average, or heaven forbid, below average.

Not trying to call you out, but I just thought of this phenomenon recently, and your post was a good opening to throw it out there.

I totally get what you are saying and you're right, too many people just assume that everything will work out. The OP uses such alarmist language that I'm frankly tired of seeing on SDN. I don't know how often we see threads on this exact subject, but its way too often. Sure, people may think they are just warning others, but the way they do it tends to indicate that most students will struggle with debt for decades and that it probably isn't worth going to dental school.

From the dentists I know, it really is a matter of working smarter and harder. I know dentists in saturated and unsaturated areas, people who have been practicing for decades or only a year or two who are making insanely good money. Too many discussions on here focus on the negative financial aspects of dentistry. I think that it isn't unreasonable for people to know that while it isn't easy, it is totally possible to pay that debt off and enjoy a good career in dentistry. Most threads on this subject tend to overlook that.

 

[kenny878]

Maybe so but areng you, like alot of others pointing to the exception rather than the rule when you talk about new grads making "extremely good money"

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

I totally get what you are saying and you're right, too many people just assume that everything will work out. The OP uses such alarmist language that I'm frankly tired of seeing on SDN. I don't know how often we see threads on this exact subject, but its way too often. Sure, people may think they are just warning others, but the way they do it tends to indicate that most students will struggle with debt for decades and that it probably isn't worth going to dental school.

From the dentists I know, it really is a matter of working smarter and harder. I know dentists in saturated and unsaturated areas, people who have been practicing for decades or only a year or two who are making insanely good money. Too many discussions on here focus on the negative financial aspects of dentistry. I think that it isn't unreasonable for people to know that while it isn't easy, it is totally possible to pay that debt off and enjoy a good career in dentistry. Most threads on this subject tend to overlook that.

Sorry for the alarmist language I really did not mean to scare anyone off. It was just that, like I said before, majority of my classmates do not even calculate their repayment amounts when taking out a half a million dollar loan while just safely assuming that they will be "rich". It only takes 30 mins and not doing this is insanity to me.

I am not the only one who feels this way about loans. Check out the replies from dentists on dentaltown for a person who is graduating with 400k loans and asking if he is screwed

How screwed am I, if at all:
http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=214&t=225711&g=1&st=dental school debt

 

[One Piece]

This is a more realistic number:

Say with all the insurances involved and living in student standard housing your living expenses yearly are about 25k a year (this is just slightly more than the estimated living expenses for students listed by various schools).
And you make 120k which equates to 87k after tax.
And 62k after living expenses to tackle loans.
Or around 5100 a month for loans.
At 400k 6.8% a repayment of 4900 a month means it will take 9 years.

THIS MEANS LIVING LIKE A STUDENT FOR 9 YEARS OUT OF DENTAL SCHOOL.
This is unrealistic for most people with kids or even for female dental students who want to have kids before 35.
This is the reality of debt.

I am a male and I am planning to apply for dental school next year. I will 29 years old when I start . I know it will take years of hard to pay off the loan. However, It really makes me worried and it gives the impression that I will be stuck with loans for the rest of my life.
So i guess everyone over 28 , should give up on pursuing dentistry.

 

[warmbroom]

Of course it can happen if you are smart with your career but is there enough money in dentistry for it to happen to everyone with 400k plus debt? Not even close. Is there enough money in dentistry for everyone with 400k debt to live the doctor lifestyle within 15 years of graduation. Unlikely. I am not trying to sacre you off, I am just suggesting pre-dents to crunch the numbers in before matriculation to see if it is worth in to them.

Loan repayment calculator: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml
Income tax calculator: http://us.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php

How many students actually come out with $400k+ in loans? I think the number is lower than you think it is. I believe the average debt of Private school graduates is around $270k. Yeah, that is a ton of money. But it is doable.

It was just that, like I said before, majority of my classmates do not even calculate their repayment amounts when taking out a half a million dollar loan while just safely assuming that they will be "rich". It only takes 30 mins and not doing this is insanity to me.

How did they enter dental school without having done this? Every school I interviewed at gave us that info.

You're right, people need to do the calculations and understand what they are getting themselves into. I didn't mean to come across as though I thought it was okay to ignore it because it is super easy to make a ton of money. Most of the threads that I've read about debt just seems like if you have to pay for loans you're either screwed or going to be eating ramen noodles every meal until your 40. And most people brush off those who do make an exceptionally high income, saying, 'That probably won't be you,' even though it very well could be.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

I am a male and I am planning to apply for dental school next year. I will 29 years old when I start . I know it will take years of hard to pay off the loan. However, It really makes me worried and it gives the impression that I will be stuck with loans for the rest of my life.
So i guess everyone over 28 , should give up on pursuing dentistry.

No no no! Dentistry is a wonderful profession! Just crunch the numbers in for yourself and ask yourself if it is worth it.

Estimated after tax salary - loan repayment - malpractice, disability, life insurance - other living expenses

Do it for the estimated salary of each year your out of school.

For example 1st and 2nd year estimate salary of 100k, 3rd and 4th 120k, onwards 140k as an associate.

You could always stretch out loan repayment over 30 years and you'd be paying 2500 to 3000 a month which is manageable on a 120k salary.

 

[warmbroom]

I am a male and I am planning to apply for dental school next year. I will 29 years old when I start . I know it will take years of hard to pay off the loan. However, It really makes me worried and it gives the impression that I will be stuck with loans for the rest of my life.
So i guess everyone over 28 , should give up on pursuing dentistry.

Haha. I think that quite a few people tend to come to this conclusion every time they read one of these threads. Thats the only reason I posted what I posted.

If you are truly passionate about dentistry, then the financial aspect should not scare you away from it. But if you just want to make the most money with the least amount of investment of time and money, I'd go with something else.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

How many students actually come out with $400k+ in loans? I think the number is lower than you think it is. I believe the average debt of Private school graduates is around $270k. Yeah, that is a ton of money. But it is doable.



How did they enter dental school without having done this? Every school I interviewed at gave us that info.

You're right, people need to do the calculations and understand what they are getting themselves into. I didn't mean to come across as though I thought it was okay to ignore it because it is super easy to make a ton of money. Most of the threads that I've read about debt just seems like if you have to pay for loans you're either screwed or going to be eating ramen noodles every meal until your 40. And most people brush off those who do make an exceptionally high income, saying, 'That probably won't be you,' even though it very well could be.

I'm afraid to say that this is a common misconception, it might have been 270k for the class of 2013 but remember these people started in 2009 when tuition was much lower. The upcoming class is graduating in 2018. This is 4 more years of 5% compound increase in tuition rates. So yes majority of my classmates will graduate with 400k debt.

I point what you said out because that was what I heard many pre-dents say during interviews to each other. "The average dentist graduates with 270k loans", "the average dentist graduating today will be able to pay it off in 10 years". But this is based on a tuition rate that does not apply to you now. So this cohort and the subsequent cohorts of dental students are going into untested waters in regards to how hard it will really be to pay off these loans.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

Haha. I think that quite a few people tend to come to this conclusion every time they read one of these threads. Thats the only reason I posted what I posted.

If you are truly passionate about dentistry, then the financial aspect should not scare you away from it. But if you just want to make the most money with the least amount of investment of time and money, I'd go with something else.

It seems like I'm calling you out but I am in no way trying to. Another thing that gets to me is the fact that you won't know if your passionate about working as a dentist until you become one. Not even 4th years will truly know if they will enjoy the profession until they get out into the real world. Working on 3 patients a day during dental school and not really having to worry about production is very different from seeing double that amount of patients while keeping a very close eye on production.

I can see this because most working dentists hate the patient interaction part of dentistry while that aspect is what 3rd and 4th years love most about dentistry.

 

[One Piece]

I'm afraid to say that this is a common misconception, it might have been 270k for the class of 2013 but remember these people started in 2009 when tuition was much lower. The upcoming class is graduating in 2018. This is 4 more years of 5% compound increase in tuition rates. So yes majority of my classmates will graduate with 400k debt.

I point what you said out because that was what I heard many pre-dents say during interviews to each other. "The average dentist graduates with 270k loans", "the average dentist graduating today will be able to pay it off in 10 years". But this is based on a tuition rate that does not apply to you now. So this cohort and the subsequent cohorts of dental students are going into untested waters in regards to how hard it will really be to pay off these loans.

what about public schools , are all dental schools including the public ones that expansive 400K and more? For example , I am interested in applying to VCU and Howard University. I think It will be around 300K including all expenses. I could be wrong. I just hope that not all the public dental schools are that expansive.

 

[warmbroom]

How screwed am I, if at all:
http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=214&t=225711&g=1&st=dental school debt

Deleted: Stupid comment

 

[warmbroom]

what about public schools , are all dental schools including the public ones that expansive 400K and more? For example , I am interested in applying to VCU and Howard University. I think It will be around 300K including all expenses. I could be wrong. I just hope that not all the public dental schools are that expansive.

Nope, not all dental schools are that expensive. Most are less than $400k.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

This seemed to be a fairly equal mix of both you're screwed! and you'll be fine responses. And it seemed like it was mostly down the lines of successful dentists saying they have that much debt and are fine, and mediocre/unsuccessful dentists saying there is no way they'd enter the profession with that kind of debt.

I'm not sure how you can tell that they are successful or unsuccessful dentists but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I also never said that 400k debt-ers are screwed, I'm just saying that their expectation of a "doctor lifestyle" after dental school will be delayed 10-15 years. And most of the students are extremely unaware of this so should be made aware by plugging in the calculations themselves.

Nope, not all dental schools are that expensive. Most are less than $400k.

This is true but if you are OOS you will be paying close to that number no matter where you go. Thats why I said go to a state dental school.

 

[warmbroom]

It seems like I'm calling you out but I am in no way trying to. Another thing that gets to me is the fact that you won't know if your passionate about working as a dentist until you become one. Not even 4th years will truly know if they will enjoy the profession until they get out into the real world. Working on 3 patients a day during dental school and not really having to worry about production is very different from seeing double that amount of patients while keeping a very close eye on production.

I can see this because most working dentists hate the patient interaction part of dentistry while that aspect is what 3rd and 4th years love most about dentistry.

I suppose it is true that you will only know if you are passionate about working as a dentist until you do it, just like I wouldn't know if I am passionate about playing in the NBA until I do it. But there are plenty of things you can do to help determine your interest in it.

I guess you and I have met dentists who are very different from each other. I've only met a few dentists who didn't like patient interaction. Every dentist I've talked to about pursuing dentistry whole heartedly recommended it, even with the huge debt. In fact, the only people who seemed to regret pursuing dentistry were specialists.

 

[warmbroom]

I'm not sure how you can tell that they are successful or unsuccessful dentists but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I also never said that 400k debt-ers are screwed, I'm just saying that their expectation of a "doctor lifestyle" after dental school will be delayed 10-15 years. And most of the students are extremely unaware of this so should be made aware by plugging in the calculations themselves.

Here is what you said:

I am a dental student at a 400k private dental school. I enrolled in this school STRICTLY on the basis that I had external monetary help to fund my tuition to a point where my debt would be halved without any interest. I would not have attended dental school and instead choose a different career path if I wasn't lucky enough to be guaranteed external help. Despite this, prior to acceptance I had calculated my potential salary (low balled numbers) minus debt repayment and other costs such as housing, insurance, food etc to MAKE sure I would have a lifestyle which I thought was worth my time in dental school.

I was shocked to hear that most students were maxing out loans of 6.8% interest, starting from first year. By the time you graduate these students will easily be over 420k in debt even with frugal living.

The opportunity cost is way too high when you get up to those ranges imo.

What I was EVEN MORE SHOCKED of was the inability of these students to understand the financial burden that they were undertaking. Alot of them were even unaware of their interest rate on the money that they had borrowed or clueless to the fact that interest is incurred from day 1 of dental school and not just started after you graduate.

Whats even MORE SHOCKING was the fact that despite spending countless hours on their application to each school, they had not even spent 30 minutes calculating their potential salary minus monthly loan repayment amount and other costs (such as food, housing, malpractice, health, life insurances). This only takes 30minutes and to ignore this when you take out a half a million dollar loan at 6.8% interest is unthinkable to me.

Then I realized that it is THESE TYPES OF PERSONALITIES that private dental schools attract; the type of people who think
"oh it will be alright in the end",
"oh they wouldn't charge us that type of tuition if we could not pay it back"

Ummm WAKE UP CALL, the schools COULD NOT CARE LESS if you become financially successful or not. They are only concerned about you passing the boards to get you licensed, they could not care less if you have to live a lifestyle of a student for the next 10-15 years just to repay some loans. Also because it is a government loan, the schools are unaffected by your ability to pay off debt because they have already got their tuition money, debt collection is now a government problem.

So PLEASE I urge you guys to do your calculations before you matriculate and ask yourself if it is worth it. If you are taking out a 400k loan chances are you will be living like a student FOR A LONG TIME (10-15 yeas). Why would you work your butt off for 8 years of your precious 20s just to live like a student until you are 40?

Mind you there are success stories of general dentists making 400k+ but this is the exception and not the norm, there certainly is not enough space for everyone with 400k loans to be making that kind of money or even the kind of money required to live a "doctor lifestyle".

I am creating this thread to warn you guys to think VERY CAREFULLY before you make the leap as I feel the schools are PREYING on 22 year old fresh grads who have no idea about the financial burden of debt. And why would they? They have been working $9/hr summer jobs and had not made a single loan repayment in their lives. They have been taught to trust educational systems and to think that these institutions are looking out for the students interests as well....this could not be further from the truth.

Those are the things that stuck out from your post to me, and to the two people that you've gotten to question going into dentistry since this thread was posted (and those were only who responded, not just lurkers). While you may think you are merely telling people to understand the financial burden they will get themselves into, you're really not. In words you may be giving people a wake up call, but the feeling that you and most people who post about the huge amount of debt students can get into, is that dentistry isn't worth it at that cost.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

Here is what you said:



Those are the things that stuck out from your post to me, and to the two people that you've gotten to question going into dentistry since this thread was posted (and those were only who responded, not just lurkers). While you may think you are merely telling people to understand the financial burden they will get themselves into, you're really not. In words you may be giving people a wake up call, but the feeling that you and most people who post about the huge amount of debt students can get into, is that dentistry isn't worth it at that cost.

Yes that is true I would not have entered dentistry if I had 400k debt at 6.8% but that is my opinion on myself. And dentistry would not have been worth it for me since I would like a reasonable amount of disposable income in my 20s and that would not be possible if my debt had doubled with that kind of interest rate. I encouraged people to find out for themselves if it is worth it to them by crunching the numbers in for themselves to come to their own conclusions. You cannot argue against numbers, but the same numbers calculated might be worth it for someone else but not for me. Once again I am not trying to scare anyone off from dentistry but this number crunching needs to be done when you are taking out a half a million dollar educational loan that will have a big impact on your lifestyle. Pre-dents and dental students also need to stop just dismissing the financial impact of these loans without actually calculating the impact themselves. This only takes 30mins.

On a lighter note, you can quite easily pull 200k plus as an owner but the burden of school debt might put people off ownership for an extended period of time.

 

[dmdluffy]

I think there is a valid message that you are trying to convey to make sure these dental students matriculating into programs understand that it is a lot of money and they aren't going to a some stereotypical rich dentist. Lots of students are young kids, 22 year olds.

On the other hand, dentistry is lucrative and despite the high cost of dental education, you'll live a comfortable life. This topic is brought up quite often like warmbroom says and it's tiring to read. Hell, even Dr. Farran, the founder of dental town which a lot of these guys arguing about doom and gloom love will tell you during his CE courses that dentistry is fine. There is plenty of money to be made and that this is a repeat of what happened int he 70's/80's.

Regarding your question about dental clinics, I don't see how raising the number of dental students will increase the profit a clinic makes. The overhead that exists for one student will likewise exist to a good degree for 200 students. The inefficiencies will average out for all the students. 200 dental students making more than 100 dentists? I doubt it.

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

I think there is a valid message that you are trying to convey to make sure these dental students matriculating into programs understand that it is a lot of money and they aren't going to a some stereotypical rich dentist. Lots of students are young kids, 22 year olds.

On the other hand, dentistry is lucrative and despite the high cost of dental education, you'll live a comfortable life. This topic is brought up quite often like warmbroom says and it's tiring to read. Hell, even Dr. Farran, the founder of dental town which a lot of these guys arguing about doom and gloom love will tell you during his CE courses that dentistry is fine. There is plenty of money to be made and that this is a repeat of what happened int he 70's/80's.

Regarding your question about dental clinics, I don't see how raising the number of dental students will increase the profit a clinic makes. The overhead that exists for one student will likewise exist to a good degree for 200 students. The inefficiencies will average out for all the students. 200 dental students making more than 100 dentists? I doubt it.

Good points, I do agree that dentistry is still extremely lucrative and I'm sure we can agree that student debt will have a major impact on the lifestyle of the upcoming generation of dentists that cannot be ignored.

I honestly think school clinics will at least break even with overhead, despite the slower pace of students and the lower fees charged. With no oral hygienists, dental assistants and very few receptionist in proportion to students the bulk of the overhead in a dental office are taken care of. But this is really just an opinion because I don't have the actual numbers for this. But I personally don't think the tripling of tuition can be remotely justified by clinical costs.

 

[Glimmer1991]

Just throwing this out there--why don't people EVER consider throwing a spouse in the mix? Surely, we dentists aren't all destined to die alone, are we?

The cost of dental school is clearly a BIG problem, and it needs to be fixed. However, how about you marry a like-minded person who can help with the bills? A spouse SHOULD be able to help. If you are 400k in the hole with student loans and have a stay-at-home spouse, I'm sorry, but you're kind of crazy. Even an additional income of 40k a year could really help, but more would obviously be preferable.

Granted, I would have drawn the line at 300k in loans. However, had I *needed* to take out that much, I'd have done it and not gone into the military. I know my future spouse would be able to help.

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

Just throwing this out there--why don't people EVER consider throwing a spouse in the mix? Surely, we dentists aren't all destined to die alone, are we?

The cost of dental school is clearly a BIG problem, and it needs to be fixed. However, how about you marry a like-minded person who can help with the bills? A spouse SHOULD be able to help. If you are 400k in the hole with student loans and have a stay-at-home spouse, I'm sorry, but you're kind of crazy. Even an additional income of 40k a year could really help, but more would obviously be preferable.

Granted, I would have drawn the line at 300k in loans. However, had I *needed* to take out that much, I'd have done it and not gone into the military. I know my future spouse would be able to help.

What if you end up getting married to another in-debted dentist with even bigger loans?

 

[Ferneezy]

Just throwing this out there--why don't people EVER consider throwing a spouse in the mix? Surely, we dentists aren't all destined to die alone, are we?

because fewer than 1% of the US pop gets married every year. chances are low that people just starting their professional lives (at the average age of dschool matriculants) have marriage on the radar.

 

[Godspeedyou]

because fewer than 1% of the US pop gets married every year. chances are low that people just starting their professional lives (at the average age of dschool matriculants) have marriage on the radar.

Lol if you haven't started planning out how you're going to find that rich girl to help pay off you loans. Sugar baby needs a momma

 

[Glimmer1991]

What if you end up getting married to another in-debted dentist with even bigger loans?

Scary!

 

[hellopeople]

This seemed to be a fairly equal mix of both you're screwed! and you'll be fine responses. And it seemed like it was mostly down the lines of successful dentists saying they have that much debt and are fine, and mediocre/unsuccessful dentists saying there is no way they'd enter the profession with that kind of debt.

Having jumped around that site from time to time I'd say you're probably being a little fast and loose with who you refer to as mediocre.

Also, I wouldn't be so fast to assume that you will be better than those who came before you. I doubt we are more focused on the business side of things than they were.