Dentists number 1 in student debt

[ICd8U]

Apparently new dentists are coming out with an average of $400,000 in student loans. I've read that the trend is towards more management company ownership of dental practices with the employed dentist receiving a lower salary.

Considering the costs, is dentistry still something you would recommend to a person at the beginning of their career?

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[jadedphysiotherapist]

Apparently new dentists are coming out with an average of $400,000 in student loans. I've read that the trend is towards more management company ownership of dental practices with the employed dentist receiving a lower salary.

Considering the costs, is dentistry still something you would recommend to a person at the beginning of their career?

That's private schools. Primarily students who couldn't get into a state school and never learned to balance a checkbook. Friends I have are also being supported by family even at in state programs.


....like seriously, does that question deserve an answer? Do a different field. The debt is never going to stop until people stop applying or loans get capped. Refinances occur with 700+ credit at 2-3% but with 400k that's a double house mortgage and the tax code has not changed much since baby boomers had economic prosperity

If you have a science degree and need a backup plan then pharma, biotech, or hs teaching can still give you a moderate middle class life if you can derive self satisfaction from those fields

 

[allantois]

When ADA refused to refund me the DAT fee 3 months before the test was scheduled, I knew to get out right there. They couldn't care less for where the profession is going.

 

[whaleofatale]

Apparently new dentists are coming out with an average of $400,000 in student loans. I've read that the trend is towards more management company ownership of dental practices with the employed dentist receiving a lower salary.

Considering the costs, is dentistry still something you would recommend to a person at the beginning of their career?

Firstly, I would not trust a company calling themselves the "Student Loan Payoff Center." This reeks of the type of scam operation that charges students to do things like consolidate or put their loans on IBR. Use. better. sources.

Secondly, the average debt is not that high, even if you only look at the most expensive private dental schools. Organizations like ASDA and ADEA put that debt load much closer to $250-$300k.

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

Firstly, I would not trust a company calling themselves the "Student Loan Payoff Center." This reeks of the type of scam operation that charges students to do things like consolidate or put their loans on IBR. Use. better. sources.

Secondly, the average debt is not that high, even if you only look at the most expensive private dental schools. Organizations like ASDA and ADEA put that debt load much closer to $250-$300k.

An NYU kid literally just posted they have 400-500k in debt. I stayed at my alma mater for grad and met a father at a bar whose son went to private and is 400k deep.

Yes, the average is like 250k.

Consolidation is not a scam. The private sector is picking up the pieces of a broken education system from the fed.

IBR is a federal program.

Firstly is an awkward word.

Students considering professional school should know that some dental, pharmacy, for profit therapy, and osteopathic med programs are a bigger scam than something called the student loan payoff center sometimes

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

Last generation is notorious for propagating systems irrespective of financial livelihood in outside markets upon completion

 

[whaleofatale]

An NYU kid literally just posted they have 400-500k in debt. I stayed at my alma mater for grad and met a father at a bar whose son went to private and is 400k deep.

Yes, the average is like 250k.

Consolidation is not a scam. The private sector is picking up the pieces of a broken education system from the fed.

IBR is a federal program.

Firstly is an awkward word.

Students considering professional school should know that some dental, pharmacy, for profit therapy, and osteopathic med programs are a bigger scam than something called the student loan payoff center sometimes

Right, there are definitely students out there who are borrowing $400-$500k. I work at an expensive private school--I know this. But that's NOT the norm. I just want to make sure people are looking at real numbers and NOT basing their experiences on outliers. Even in the expensive cities, even at the expensive schools, even for students who are relying 100% on loans, you can graduate for much less if you are careful and frugal. Students that graduate with $500,000 in student loans from dental school did not try to live for less.

Of course consolidation is not a scam. IBR is not a scam. None of the federal benefits are scams (consolidation is federal, by the way--it sounds like you are referencing refinancing, which is done in the private sector). But the "Student Loan Payoff Center" is most likely a sketchy company that charges people to file their consolidation/IBR/IDR/PSLF paperwork. Which you can do for free. Yourself. At any time. My point is that your source is sketchy and more-than-likely trying to get students to sign up for a dubious paid service. If that's something you are interested in that's fine, but just recognize that they are overblowing the average debt in an attempt to drum up business. Be careful out there.

 

[NavyDDS1990]

Yes, the average is like 250k.

The average student debt of ALL dental students is indeed around 250K. However, this number also includes those students with wealthy parents that do not have any debt, and I heard that there are a lot of wealthy students in dental schools than we can imagine.

 

[ncide]

That's private schools. Primarily students who couldn't get into a state school and never learned to balance a checkbook. Friends I have are also being supported by family even at in state programs.


....like seriously, does that question deserve an answer? Do a different field. The debt is never going to stop until people stop applying or loans get capped. Refinances occur with 700+ credit at 2-3% but with 400k that's a double house mortgage and the tax code has not changed much since baby boomers had economic prosperity

If you have a science degree and need a backup plan then pharma, biotech, or hs teaching can still give you a moderate middle class life if you can derive self satisfaction from those fields

Gonna burst your bubble, but it's not private schools. My in-state school was $350k (OOS for UW is around $500k). I am an OOS at a state school with a projected cost of attendance of $450k (personal projection is around $400k).

Schools that have more "affordable" costs ($250k was considered absurdly high a few years ago) are becoming fewer and fewer.

 

[ncide]

The average student debt of ALL dental students is indeed around 250K. However, this number also includes those students with wealthy parents that do not have any debt, and I heard that there are a lot of wealthy students in dental schools than we can imagine.

These averages consider dental students that have graduated over the last couple of years. It is not an accurate reflection of today's estimates for the future graduating classes.

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

The average student debt of ALL dental students is indeed around 250K. However, this number also includes those students with wealthy parents that do not have any debt, and I heard that there are a lot of wealthy students in dental schools than we can imagine.

Looks like you're doing HPSP navy. Good planning.

 

[CanadianDent16]

@ncide, I interviewed at VCU same year you did and got accepted but declined based on the costs. Now in Ireland studying Dentistry (Canadian). Hope you're liking it though! I really enjoyed my visit there just couldn't believe the costs..

 

[yappy]

That's private schools. Primarily students who couldn't get into a state school and never learned to balance a checkbook. Friends I have are also being supported by family even at in state programs.


....like seriously, does that question deserve an answer? Do a different field. The debt is never going to stop until people stop applying or loans get capped. Refinances occur with 700+ credit at 2-3% but with 400k that's a double house mortgage and the tax code has not changed much since baby boomers had economic prosperity

If you have a science degree and need a backup plan then pharma, biotech, or hs teaching can still give you a moderate middle class life if you can derive self satisfaction from those fields

Unfortunately many public schools are not much cheaper. This is especially true when you consider that the tax payer is subsidizing the cost of the public students education.

I agree with the thesis, however. Medical school is a better investment for the time and the money.

 

[Cello]

Apparently new dentists are coming out with an average of $400,000 in student loans. I've read that the trend is towards more management company ownership of dental practices with the employed dentist receiving a lower salary.

Considering the costs, is dentistry still something you would recommend to a person at the beginning of their career?

Okay, just to straighten this out. The link points to a Facebook post by the Student Loan Payoff Center. That post in turn references the Student Loan Planner website run by Travis who posts on these forums occasionally.

Now that's sorted, what Travis is saying is that of 36 dentists he has worked with recently they have an average of $402,000 in debt. A few important points though:

• Travis helps people who are struggling financially. This means that he is going to get more dentists who have higher debt and possible lower salaries or more expensive cost of living. That's why they came to him presumably, because they are struggling with their student loans. Thus the data will be skewed towards dentists with higher debt and/or lower salaries.
  
• Average indebtedness for all dental classes in 2016 was $261,000 according to the ADEA.
• 36 is a very small n compared to what the ADEA has access to.
• Yes, student loans are crushing dentists. Here is another good article about dental student tuition (where I found the ADEA data) to go along with the one the OP posted: https://www.dentalschooldigest.com/crippling-cost-dental-school-tuition/

If something doesn't change soon, dentistry will become an unviable profession.

In my opinion, the government should offer lower interest rates to graduate students, especially for professions like dentistry with high rates of repayment. If dental students are really paying 99% back as is suggested in the article I linked to, then that is a very low risk for the lender. Instead of punishing us with high interest rates because they know that we won't default, maybe the government / lenders should reward us for honoring our debt.

I would love to see something go to Congress from the professional organizations (ADA, AMA, etc.) pushing for lower interest rates on professional degrees. That would help us all immensely.

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

Okay, just to straighten this out. The link points to a Facebook post by the Student Loan Payoff Center. That post in turn references the Student Loan Planner website run by Travis who posts on these forums occasionally.

Now that's sorted, what Travis is saying is that of 36 dentists he has worked with recently have $402,000 in debt. A few important points though:

• Travis helps people who are struggling financially. This means that he is going to get more dentists who have higher debt and possible lower salaries or more expensive cost of living. That's why they came to him presumably, because they are struggling with their student loans. Thus the data will be skewed towards dentists with higher debt.
  
• Average indebtedness for all dental classes in 2016 was $261,000 according to the ADEA.
• 36 is a very small n-value compared to what the ADEA has access to.
• Yes, student loans are crushing dentists. Here is another good article about dental student tuition (where I found the ADEA data) to go along with the one the OP posted: https://www.dentalschooldigest.com/crippling-cost-dental-school-tuition/

If something doesn't change soon, dentistry will become an unviable profession.

In my opinion, the government should offer lower interest rates to graduate students, especially for professions like dentistry with high rates of repayment. If dental students are really paying 99% back as is suggested in the article I linked to, then that is a very low risk for the lender. Instead of punishing us with high interest rates because they know that we won't default, maybe the government / lenders should reward us for honoring our debt.

I would love to see something go to Congress from the professional organizations (ADA, AMA, etc.) pushing for lower interest rates on professional degrees. That would help us all immensely.

That's the problem tho.....

They profit immensely off of us (graduate students). My field is the fastest growing in healthcare right now, yet our interest rates are the same as a PhD poetry student.

It's incredibly messed up. If you're interested, there was a bill called POSTGRAD created by the American Psychological Association which is meant to restore subsidized loans. It was presented two years ago. I have no idea where it is now though.

Inter professional support for lobbying on that issue would be the best course of action. ADA, AMA, APTA, APhA, APTA, AVMA, etc.

 

[Cello]

That's the problem tho.....

They profit immensely off of us (graduate students). My field is the fastest growing in healthcare right now, yet our interest rates are the same as a PhD poetry student.

It's incredibly messed up. If you're interested, there was a bill called POSTGRAD created by the American Psychological Association which is meant to restore subsidized loans. It was presented two years ago. I have no idea where it is now though

I certainly agree. That is why we need to push back through our PACs and lobbying efforts.

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

How do you propose getting in communication with each other at the national level?

PACs usually focus on profession only issues. This would be all of healthcare

You may PM me.

 

[Cello]

How do you propose getting in communication with each other at the national level?

PACs usually focus on profession only issues. This would be all of healthcare

The ADA shares some lobbying firms with the AMA if I am not mistaken. Many of the lobbyists run in small circles, so they all know each other. Getting the AMA, ADA, NLA, etc. to band together wouldn't probably be all that hard if they all focused on one issue like student loan debt. It would be as easy as coordinating their collective lobbying efforts.

I don't think there is much that can be done about rising tuition right now unfortunately (for many reasons which I won't go into here), but I think that there is a lot that can be done about interest rates.

You have our government charging 0.75% on loans to the banks through the fed, then turning around and charging us 5-6% for our low-risk student loans. We need to remind our government whom they work for, and I think it has to be done through lobbying and PACs like ADPAC. If the big professional organizations banded together on just this one issue, it would have many positive benefits, not the least of which would include reduced cost of care because we could potentially have lower student loan payments.

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

The ADA shares some lobbying firms with the AMA if I am not mistaken. Many of the lobbyists run in small circles, so they all know each other. Getting the AMA, ADA, NLA, etc. to band together wouldn't probably be all that hard if they all focused on one issue like student loan debt. It would be as easy as coordinating their collective lobbying efforts.

I don't think there is much that can be done about rising tuition right now unfortunately (for many reasons which I won't go into here), but I think that there is a lot that can be done about interest rates.

You have our government charging 0.75% on loans to the banks through the fed, then turning around and charging us 5-6% for our low-risk student loans. We need to remind our government whom they work for, and I think it has to be done through lobbying and PACs like ADPAC. If the big professional organizations banded together on just this one issue, it would have many positive benefits, not the least of which would include reduced cost of care because we could potentially have lower student loan payments.

Exactly. The grad rate hikes are absurd compared to what the original rate is and it implicitly drives practice and excess cost to patients since its part of your bills

 

[Mascota]

Okay, just to straighten this out. The link points to a Facebook post by the Student Loan Payoff Center. That post in turn references the Student Loan Planner website run by Travis who posts on these forums occasionally.

Now that's sorted, what Travis is saying is that of 36 dentists he has worked with recently they have an average of $402,000 in debt. A few important points though:

• Travis helps people who are struggling financially. This means that he is going to get more dentists who have higher debt and possible lower salaries or more expensive cost of living. That's why they came to him presumably, because they are struggling with their student loans. Thus the data will be skewed towards dentists with higher debt and/or lower salaries.
  
• Average indebtedness for all dental classes in 2016 was $261,000 according to the ADEA.
• 36 is a very small n compared to what the ADEA has access to.
• Yes, student loans are crushing dentists. Here is another good article about dental student tuition (where I found the ADEA data) to go along with the one the OP posted: https://www.dentalschooldigest.com/crippling-cost-dental-school-tuition/

If something doesn't change soon, dentistry will become an unviable profession.

In my opinion, the government should offer lower interest rates to graduate students, especially for professions like dentistry with high rates of repayment. If dental students are really paying 99% back as is suggested in the article I linked to, then that is a very low risk for the lender. Instead of punishing us with high interest rates because they know that we won't default, maybe the government / lenders should reward us for honoring our debt.

I would love to see something go to Congress from the professional organizations (ADA, AMA, etc.) pushing for lower interest rates on professional degrees. That would help us all immensely.

"Average indebtedness for all dental classes in 2016 was $261,000 according to the ADEA."


It's pretty easy to show that's a bogus number for people relying on student loans completely to finance their education. Simply take the out of state/private school cost of attendance and multiply each year by simple interest. That number immediately goes out the window. You don't need any sample size to prove that.

 

[Cello]

"Average indebtedness for all dental classes in 2016 was $261,000 according to the ADEA."


It's pretty easy to show that's a bogus number for people relying on student loans completely to finance their education. Simply take the out of state/private school cost of attendance and multiply each year by simple interest. That number immediately goes out the window. You don't need any sample size to prove that.

And how about students on HPSP, PhD programs, NHSC, Indian Health Service, parental assistance, spousal assistance, etc? The ADEA was averaging indebtedness for all dental school graduates, not just those who financed their education entirely with student loans.

 

[oceanv]

I'm on the same page with you about how absurd student loan is when we graduate 4 years from now and it really stressed me out. I know there are different options either to pay it off aggressively or push it out long to take advantage of loan forgiveness. I'll be 32 in 2023 when I graduate dental school and want to be established with family at that time so I can't figure out how I can handle the $400k loan.

Some of you @Cello, @jadedphysiotherapist, @ncide, are current dental students. How do you plan to pay for your debt, assuming you have around $400k debt in a few years when you graduate?

 

[ncide]

Get into residency and rack on more debt.

The graduating residents from my school got job offers higher than 400k so the debt to income ratio isn't bad.

 

[allantois]

Get into residency and rack on more debt.

The graduating residents from my school got job offers higher than 400k so the debt to income ratio isn't bad.

Oral Surgery is really an exceptional field.

 

[fa_tth]

I'm on the same page with you about how absurd student loan is when we graduate 4 years from now and it really stressed me out. I know there are different options either to pay it off aggressively or push it out long to take advantage of loan forgiveness. I'll be 32 in 2023 when I graduate dental school and want to be established with family at that time so I can't figure out how I can handle the $400k loan.

Some of you @Cello, @jadedphysiotherapist, @ncide, are current dental students. How do you plan to pay for your debt, assuming you have around $400k debt in a few years when you graduate?

Not one of the ones you mentioned (2nd year ds) but, I intend to go home and live with my parents while also devoting 80%+ of my income into my debt for a few years. I don't think there are many (if any) other options other than getting lucky w/ NHSC to pay off this staggering debt.

 

[DrRickJames]

Okay, just to straighten this out. The link points to a Facebook post by the Student Loan Payoff Center. That post in turn references the Student Loan Planner website run by Travis who posts on these forums occasionally.

Now that's sorted, what Travis is saying is that of 36 dentists he has worked with recently they have an average of $402,000 in debt. A few important points though:

• Travis helps people who are struggling financially. This means that he is going to get more dentists who have higher debt and possible lower salaries or more expensive cost of living. That's why they came to him presumably, because they are struggling with their student loans. Thus the data will be skewed towards dentists with higher debt and/or lower salaries.
  
• Average indebtedness for all dental classes in 2016 was $261,000 according to the ADEA.
• 36 is a very small n compared to what the ADEA has access to.
• Yes, student loans are crushing dentists. Here is another good article about dental student tuition (where I found the ADEA data) to go along with the one the OP posted: The Crippling Cost of Dental School Tuition | Dental School Digest

If something doesn't change soon, dentistry will become an unviable profession.

In my opinion, the government should offer lower interest rates to graduate students, especially for professions like dentistry with high rates of repayment. If dental students are really paying 99% back as is suggested in the article I linked to, then that is a very low risk for the lender. Instead of punishing us with high interest rates because they know that we won't default, maybe the government / lenders should reward us for honoring our debt.

I would love to see something go to Congress from the professional organizations (ADA, AMA, etc.) pushing for lower interest rates on professional degrees. That would help us all immensely.

You make a good point about about how a 99% payback represents a low risk and should deserve more representative interest rates. However would you worry that after a certain period of time lower interest rates would actually stimulate tuition prices to inflate as institutions are continuously testing where applicants will draw the line, which would presumably be higher with the benefit of lower interest rates?

 

[golfer]

Okay, just to straighten this out. The link points to a Facebook post by the Student Loan Payoff Center. That post in turn references the Student Loan Planner website run by Travis who posts on these forums occasionally.

Now that's sorted, what Travis is saying is that of 36 dentists he has worked with recently they have an average of $402,000 in debt. A few important points though:

• Travis helps people who are struggling financially. This means that he is going to get more dentists who have higher debt and possible lower salaries or more expensive cost of living. That's why they came to him presumably, because they are struggling with their student loans. Thus the data will be skewed towards dentists with higher debt and/or lower salaries.
  
• Average indebtedness for all dental classes in 2016 was $261,000 according to the ADEA.
• 36 is a very small n compared to what the ADEA has access to.
• Yes, student loans are crushing dentists. Here is another good article about dental student tuition (where I found the ADEA data) to go along with the one the OP posted: The Crippling Cost of Dental School Tuition | Dental School Digest

If something doesn't change soon, dentistry will become an unviable profession.

In my opinion, the government should offer lower interest rates to graduate students, especially for professions like dentistry with high rates of repayment. If dental students are really paying 99% back as is suggested in the article I linked to, then that is a very low risk for the lender. Instead of punishing us with high interest rates because they know that we won't default, maybe the government / lenders should reward us for honoring our debt.

I would love to see something go to Congress from the professional organizations (ADA, AMA, etc.) pushing for lower interest rates on professional degrees. That would help us all immensely.

http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=2656&t=289695&pg=1&r=4567906&v=0

Here is a list of schools and their tuition costs for the projected future. You can read it and make your own conclusions. Travis put this together.

 

[corporateflea]

http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=2656&t=289695&pg=1&r=4567906&v=0

Here is a list of schools and their tuition costs for the projected future. You can read it and make your own conclusions. Travis put this together.

Can you post it here? I don't have access to DT. Thanks.

 

[Del0]

You make a good point about about how a 99% payback represents a low risk and should deserve more representative interest rates. However would you worry that after a certain period of time lower interest rates would actually stimulate tuition prices to inflate as institutions are continuously testing where applicants will draw the line, which would presumably be higher with the benefit of lower interest rates?

Reading through the comments, I was just about to say this until I saw this comment.
In an ideal world, you could lobby with ADA, AMA, and other professional organizations to get lower interest rates and dental school is more affordable. YAY! Right? No, that logic fails to understand the fact that that's exactly how the bubble bursts in the first place.
Artificially lowering interest rates through the fed will just make dental school at the current price more affordable, leading to more people seeing it as a viable option (increasing demand), thus driving up tuition even more. It's the similar to what happened to the housing market burst in 2007 (minus the copious corruption on Wall Street and in D.C.) when the Feds artificially lowered interest rates because "everyone should have a house" and it's currently the exact same thing that's happening in the undergrad tuition bubble for the same reason. The more involved the Feds get in lowering interest rates for dental school, the crazier the tuition gets.
With that being said, dentistry is an unbelievably rewarding field, it just goes to show that people in this field can actually pay off a $400k debt in their lifetime. Dentists make plenty of money to pay this off, it just won't be in 10 years like some dreamers like to believe, but more like a 20-25 year plan.


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