Despair at Orientation

[Law2Doc]

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Isn't this one of the driving forces behind the trend for more applicants in anesthesia? (That people consider it a 'lifestyle' field?) That is what everyone I know who is aiming for it says, anyway. Boy are they all in for a big surprise!

Yeah, I don't get that. From what I've observed, the anesthesia folks have to get to the OR about an hour before the surgeons each morning to prep the first patient, and then have to stick around a while after the last surgery while the patient is coming to. That makes for a long day. The JAMA article the above poster cited kind of bears this out. At some places the more senior folks get better hours because the CRNAs and residents do the lions share of OR hours, but it takes a while before you get that kind of seniority.

 

[Taurus]

Yeah, I don't get that. From what I've observed, the anesthesia folks have to get to the OR about an hour before the surgeons each morning to prep the first patient, and then have to stick around a while after the last surgery while the patient is coming to. That makes for a long day. The JAMA article the above poster cited kind of bears this out. At some places the more senior folks get better hours because the CRNAs and residents do the lions share of OR hours, but it takes a while before you get that kind of seniority.

You forget to mention a very important fact: anesthesia residents get paid overtime. At couple places I know, they get $50-75/hour after 5 pm. That's pretty good when you consider that all other specialties don't get that.

 

[Plebo]

sometimes its nice being MD ( more rank, 3 or 4 times the pressure, less time for yourself, incresed responsibility and big decision making, more percs)

Am I the only one that found this funny?

 

[Tired]

Orientation started Tuesday. I've been crying myself to sleep since then. It's finally hitting me how much time and sacrifice it will take to become a physician. I want to have a family life. Working 48hrs. a week isn't what I want. Yet I don't know what else I can do. I've never considered another career. I'm going to see a campus counselor today.

You should definitely quit now. Remember, just because you change your mind doesn't mean you get your money back.

 

[Member 870]

I thank everyone for their input. I spoke with a counselor, which helped a bit. I'm staying a med student for the foreseeable future.

 

[radslooking]

After three years and two attempts, I'm finally about to start medical school. I've shadowed, done research, studied, MCATed and thought seriously about what it takes to be a physician. I thought I was ready.

Orientation started Tuesday. I've been crying myself to sleep since then. It's finally hitting me how much time and sacrifice it will take to become a physician. I want to have a family life. Working 48hrs. a week isn't what I want. Yet I don't know what else I can do. I've never considered another career. I'm going to see a campus counselor today.

48 hours a week is too much and you haven't even started med school yet? Seriously, do something else. You are going to get killed in this profession.

 

[NonTradMed]

48 hours a week is too much and you haven't even started med school yet? Seriously, do something else. You are going to get killed in this profession.

Well, it depends on what you do during those working hours. If you're actively running around and doing work, you can't keep that up for more than 40 hours/week perhaps. But if you are sitting and waiting around for half the time, then you can probably do 60hr/week and be no problem.

From the doctors I've spoken with, most see patients for 35-40 hours/week. Those are the 'hurry up' hours. Some more hours is spent on paperwork and looking at charts.

But from my understanding, if you are oncall for one overnight, even if all you did was speak with someone over the phone or run to the hospital for an hour consult, you count that as a 15 hour overnight call.....at least that's what the PMR and neurologist I spoke with counted it as. The PMR guy says the average person at the clinic works 60 hr/week. 45 hrs during the normal week, plus 15 that's oncall (basically overnight where they may be called in). However, this guy admitted to being a workaholic. He considers anything less than 70hr/week 'slacking'. 😀

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

From the doctors I've spoken with, most see patients for 35-40 hours/week. Those are the 'hurry up' hours. Some more hours is spent on paperwork and looking at charts.

Never underestimate that seemingly innocuous phrase 'some more hours spent on paperwork'. Documentation (read: covering your ass, read: getting paid for your work) as well as the day-to-day grind of running a business answerable to so many different bureaucratic entities is precisely what transforms many specialties into 70-hour-week gauntlets. And PM&R is a fairly sweet, heretofore for the most part undiscovered, gem of a lifestyle specialty, hardly representative of the grind most will encounter in primary care or the various surgical fields.

 

[IHeartNerds]

The PMR guy ... However, this guy admitted to being a workaholic. He considers anything less than 70hr/week 'slacking'. 😀

Dude, no one in PMR is a workaholic.

 

[Orthodoc40]

You forget to mention a very important fact: anesthesia residents get paid overtime. At couple places I know, they get $50-75/hour after 5 pm. That's pretty good when you consider that all other specialties don't get that.

Okay but working overtime, no matter what you get paid, for a crazy number of hours a week, leaves you with no life. Therefore, it can't be a 'lifestyle' specialty. Lifestyle implies least amount of hours for most amount of pay. Not just most amount of pay.

 

[Kirby175]

I thank everyone for their input. I spoke with a counselor, which helped a bit. I'm staying a med student for the foreseeable future.

awesome! very glad to hear it! good luck to you 👍

 

[SpinnerOfTruth]

I hope you're gunning derm or something. Because 48 hours a week is nothing. If that is scaring you away from medicine, maybe you should think twice. Don't think of it as a bad thing. Just different. But then again, to scare you right back into medicine, I can't think of too many jobs where you're going to be working much less than that a week. But to scare you right back out of medicine again, if you spend about 30 hours a week in class and your prof tells you for every hour of class you have, you should spend at least 3-4 hours studying on top of that... well.. you do the math.

Every decision you make in life will be the right one... because you have already made it. So, do whatever you want because after you've done it... who cares, it already happened.

After three years and two attempts, I'm finally about to start medical school. I've shadowed, done research, studied, MCATed and thought seriously about what it takes to be a physician. I thought I was ready.

Orientation started Tuesday. I've been crying myself to sleep since then. It's finally hitting me how much time and sacrifice it will take to become a physician. I want to have a family life. Working 48hrs. a week isn't what I want. Yet I don't know what else I can do. I've never considered another career. I'm going to see a campus counselor today.

 

[tdittyx2x3]

Just wanted to bump this in hopes that the OP might be able to give us an update. OP, if you stuck with it you are nearing the end of your first year. How'd it go? Feeling better I hope?

Like you I am also experiencing some cold feet as Day 1 approaches. My experience has been much milder than what you described in your posts, yet still present.. something I hope will be replaced with excitement by orientation time. My intuition tells me that this is just my first permenant decision in life and once I jump in all will be cool. Anyone else experiencing the same?

 

[nina1985]

Like you I am also experiencing some cold feet as Day 1 approaches. My experience has been much milder than what you described in your posts, yet still present.. something I hope will be replaced with excitement by orientation time. My intuition tells me that this is just my first permenant decision in life and once I jump in all will be cool. Anyone else experiencing the same?

I know what you mean. I'm very excited to start, but also apprehensive. It's probably not a bad thing to be feeling, considering how big a decision going into medicine is. At least I'm bracing myself for future difficulties.

I tend to worry most about having to sacrifice a family life, and I find reading many of the med student/physician blogs to be discouraging. But, then, most of the doctors I know seem to be able to balance their lives very well and love what they do.

 

[Conky]

Just wanted to bump this in hopes that the OP might be able to give us an update. OP, if you stuck with it you are nearing the end of your first year. How'd it go? Feeling better I hope?

Like you I am also experiencing some cold feet as Day 1 approaches. My experience has been much milder than what you described in your posts, yet still present.. something I hope will be replaced with excitement by orientation time. My intuition tells me that this is just my first permenant decision in life and once I jump in all will be cool. Anyone else experiencing the same?

Good thread. I feel like I get a lot more insight in this forum and that threads actually stay on topic.

Hope you didn't decide to drop out, original poster.

 

[Blesbok]

This is true but also funny!

Once again, there will ALWAYS be someone saying its not that hard, or its a piece of cake.. {Its is total sacrifice as you said, endurance, and "burning the mid night oil"} I latter on found out that saying things like its a "piece of cake" is kind of like an unofficial initiation right said by the unconscientious..

The way some of these guys talk you'd think they were the "William Osler of the medical field"-Not true, many are just managing there own weight!!!

You ARE allowed to cry for one night.. After that suck it up, fight and focus like you never did before! You will see the light!! The balanced thing for them to say would be its doable or its bearable 👍

I know plenty of physicians that work 48 hours or less, although not always the 48 hours that I would consider convenient. It all depends on your passion and how much money means to you. A physician could work 20 hours a week if they really wanted to.

 

[olemissbabydoc]

I know what you mean. I'm very excited to start, but also apprehensive. It's probably not a bad thing to be feeling, considering how big a decision going into medicine is. At least I'm bracing myself for future difficulties.

I tend to worry most about having to sacrifice a family life, and I find reading many of the med student/physician blogs to be discouraging. But, then, most of the doctors I know seem to be able to balance their lives very well and love what they do.

And if we can do this, it'll be worth it 👍

 

[melanoleuca]

Anyone have any thoughts on dropping out before I owe any tuition, or at least convincing them to defer me a year (they can replace me with an alternate up until 12 noon tomorrow).

I don't mean to sound flighty, but PA school seems so much more appealing now.

Oh Sweet Mother of Abraham Lincoln. Going to PA school instead of medical school is like settling for the fat, dumpy sweaty chick with bad facial hair when what you really wanted was her hot, blond, big-busted, bisexual-but-willing-to-share friend.

 

[sirius08]

Oh Sweet Mother of Abraham Lincoln. Going to PA school instead of medical school is like settling for the fat, dumpy sweaty chick with bad facial hair when what you really wanted was her hot, blond, big-busted, bisexual-but-willing-to-share friend.

that is certainly a change of perspective! 😉

 

[Blesbok]

Oh Sweet Mother of Abraham Lincoln. Going to PA school instead of medical school is like settling for the fat, dumpy sweaty chick with bad facial hair when what you really wanted was her hot, blond, big-busted, bisexual-but-willing-to-share friend.

"Sweet Mother" should not be capitalized. You get an F- for this post.

 

[phospho]

"Sweet Mother" should not be capitalized. You get an F- for this post.

haha, trust me on this one: he's a better writer than you'll ever be😉

 

[neil100]

This is actually really sad but crazy at the same time.

People are 'dying' to get into medical school and work hard for it. Here you have a person who has gotten accepted but has changed her mind. wow!

To the OP, please do humanity a favor by making the right decision swiftly because there are other who would actually want to be in your position (ie. have gotten an acceptance). Also, it won't help your patients if you aren't happy as a physician due to the long hours.

This IS a profession that requires intelligence AS WELL AS hard work. If you are unable to work hard and have determination to put in long hours then doctor isn't the right profession for you.

I can only imagine how many people are in the same dilemma as you. It really is sad for the people who are actually anxiously waiting for those spots.

 

[Mr hawkings]

This is actually really sad but crazy at the same time.

People are 'dying' to get into medical school and work hard for it. Here you have a person who has gotten accepted but has changed her mind. wow!

To the OP, please do humanity a favor by making the right decision swiftly because there are other who would actually want to be in your position (ie. have gotten an acceptance). Also, it won't help your patients if you aren't happy as a physician due to the long hours.

This IS a profession that requires intelligence AS WELL AS hard work. If you are unable to work hard and have determination to put in long hours then doctor isn't the right profession for you.

I can only imagine how many people are in the same dilemma as you. It really is sad for the people who are actually anxiously waiting for those spots.

Relax, its an old thread

 

[melanoleuca]

"Sweet Mother" should not be capitalized. You get an F- for this post.

Bull****. It's capitalized because to write, "Sweet mother of Abraham Lincoln," wouldn't look or sound right. Capitalizing this also let's me avoid an exclamation mark, something I avoid whenever possible.

 

[melanoleuca]

that is certainly a change of perspective! 😉

Yeah. But the idea of going to PA school as some kind of booby-prize because medical school and medical training are too long and too tough (which is why most PAs go to PA school) should be anathema to everybody on SDN.

 

[phospho]

Here you have a person who has gotten accepted but has changed her mind.

The OP earned their seat fair and square, and they can do whatever the hell it is that they want with it.

People are 'dying' to get into medical school and work hard for it.

there are others who would actually want to be in your position

They should have studied harder if they really did want it that bad...

 

[ChichiMD]

They should have studied harder if they really did want it that bad...[/quote]


I was having a gr8 time reading this thread until the expert pre-meds of sdn (or should I say pre-med) posted this silly statement. I always thought this was common knowledge but since its apparently not, here we go....There are many people with excellent stats that don't get in. Think before u post. Thank you.

 

[slick27]

Plus studying your ass off doesn't always equal doing well in classes or the MCAT. A lot of it comes down to ability.

 

[tdittyx2x3]

The point isn't how a student came to be accepted or even if they deserved to be accepted. It's that a student has the right to do what they wish with what they have earned - fairly indisputable. Let's stop criticizing.

--

I suppose in bringing this thread back I was hoping to hear from others who had experienced "cold feet" prior to starting school. It would be comforting to hear that people have had similar thoughts/feelings and everything turned out all fairy tale fine and dandy. Who can help keep this thread on track?

 

[bodonid]

medical school is a huge time commitment and requires a ton of work. In some ways, it is like a marriage. Even people that belong together get cold feet sometimes.

if you have second thoughts for a few days or even a week, I wouldn't worry. longer than that, and it might not be for you. but trust me, lots of people in this position on day -10 feel the opposite on day +20.

If you are worried about not being good enough, stop. That's silly.

If you are worried about making the wrong decision career wise, talk to friends and family. Figure out what is most important for you in your life. I didn't exactly have cold feet- I know I couldn't be happy doing anything else- but I did have this kind of diffuse anxiety for about two months before school started. It wasn't pretty. But on day one I felt at home and happy.

 

[hussamdein]

There are many people with excellent stats that don't get in. Think before u post. Thank you.

Alright, well, then these people with excellent stats should study less then.🙄 Or they should get laid more. Or they should push more. Or they should goof around more. Or they should do more of whatever it is that those people who got accepted (like the OP) did. It's not a crap shoot genius. There are a lot of arbitrary aspects, but for the most part it's pretty straightforward. If someone with excellent stats didn't get in, then it probably because there's something deficient in their app. They weren't simply "unlucky" as you make it out to seem.

I was having a gr8 time reading this thread until the expert pre-meds of sdn (or should I say pre-med) posted this silly statement.

lol, you're a premed (who has less than 100 posts) calling another poster a "premed". That's pretty stupid.

Think before u post. Thank you.

Looks like you're the one who should think before you post, "pre-med".

 

[deleted192690]

The OP earned their seat fair and square, and they can do whatever the hell it is that they want with it.

They should have studied harder if they really did want it that bad...

Personally, I found luck to be a big part of this process too...but then again I'm one of those people who didn't study as hard as I should have and expected to be outright rejected...

I sympathize with the OP. Except I had this problem during college and while I was working after college for several years ...I know some people in medical school who considered quitting (one in particular) during their second year. They kept chugging along anyway, and found something they liked eventually (or at least tolerate to some degree..) It is after all, a means to make your bread and butter esp. in this tough economy...but you have a right to do what you think is right for you. As an adult, when you make a choice, you take a risk and live with it, whatever the consequence. The unexpected happens a lot in life (wherever you go), and you learn to roll with the punches even if it punches you in the face...alot...good luck.. 😳

 

[phospho]

Personally, I found luck to be a big part of this process too...but then again I'm one of those people who didn't study as hard as I should have and expected to be outright rejected...

I sympathize with the OP. Except I had this problem during college and while I was working after college for several years ...I know some people in medical school who considered quitting (one in particular) during their second year. They kept chugging along anyway, and found something they liked eventually (or at least tolerate to some degree..) It is after all, a means to make your bread and butter esp. in this tough economy...but you have a right to do what you think is right for you. As an adult, when you make a choice, you take a risk and live with it, whatever the consequence. The unexpected happens a lot in life (wherever you go), and you learn to roll with the punches even if it punches you in the face...alot...good luck.. 😳

I agree, there's definitely luck in the process. But I meant that there are more controllable factors than there are random factors.

I'm also getting cold feet. Actually, everytime I really think about what I have gotten myself into, I seem to get butterflies. But I'm also excited, so I hope it works out.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Bull****. It's capitalized because to write, "Sweet mother of Abraham Lincoln," wouldn't look or sound right. Capitalizing this also let's me avoid an exclamation mark, something I avoid whenever possible.

Random question to a random point! Why do you avoid the "!"?!?!?!

 

[ChichiMD]

Alright, well, then these people with excellent stats should study less then.🙄 Or they should get laid more. Or they should push more. Or they should goof around more. Or they should do more of whatever it is that those people who got accepted (like the OP) did. It's not a crap shoot genius. There are a lot of arbitrary aspects, but for the most part it's pretty straightforward. If someone with excellent stats didn't get in, then it probably because there's something deficient in their app. They weren't simply "unlucky" as you make it out to seem.

I still stand my grounds, not every one with gunner status gets into med school. If you wanna write a book opposing that, by all means do so 😉. A war of words with you will clearly have no merits.


lol, you're a premed (who has less than 100 posts) calling another poster a "premed". That's pretty stupid.

Ur a med student (with less than 4 posts) calling my post stupid. Buahahahahaha. FYI: Just because people don't avidly post on sdn doesnt mean sh**. This might come as a shock to you but some people just like to watch from the sidelines and respond to 1 out of 100 threads they read. Others also have a life outside sdn, believe it or not.
Oh yea, not to start a cross fire or anything but I cant help it if some pre-meds piss me the hell off with their "expert" analysis...on the flip side, I know a lot of freaking awesome pre-meds too. Yes I believe I am fully aware I am a pre-med and the person I was referring to was also a pre-med, whats ur point?

 

[ChichiMD]

I agree, there's definitely luck in the process. But I meant that there are more controllable factors than there are random factors.

When put this way, I can understand.

BTW, sorry if i was rude in expressing my opinion(s).

 

[slight365]

I wonder how the OP is progressing now.

I have jitters as well, even though I spent several years taking a break and studying med-level material ahead of time, I will now have to do it formally in German. It's pretty scary, but I'm taking prep classes now to help alleviate it all.

 

[WellWornLad]

People are 'dying' to get into medical school and work hard for it...To the OP, please do humanity a favor by making the right decision swiftly because there are other who would actually want to be in your position (ie. have gotten an acceptance).

Or, maybe the OP is doing everyone a favor by spending thousands of dollars to keep a marginally qualified person out of med school. Depends on how you look at it.

[CUE: Outrage, sanctimony. In the distance, the gentle rustling of inflated pre-med egos can be heard...]

This IS a profession that requires intelligence AS WELL AS hard work. If you are unable to work hard and have determination to put in long hours then doctor isn't the right profession for you.

I'm embarrassed that I was a pre-med once.

Not everything in medicine boils down to intelligence and hard work. In fact, very little does. The work isn't even that hard. Long, yes - hard, no.

Hard is working on a factory line for 40 years doing the same repetitive motion for $10/hour, praying that you can work overtime this week for that golden $15/hour in the sky. Hard is taking the bus at 5 am everyday so that you can make the 2 hour commute to the construction site to move bags of cement in 30 degree weather. Hard is what the majority of people in this country have to put up with. It's so damned fatuous that the elite in this country not only need the highest-paying jobs and prestige, but also need to co-opt some myth of struggle and suffering to round out the package. Sure, it's work, but the work everyone seems to compare it to is rock star or part-time financial consultant.

 

[melanoleuca]

Or, maybe the OP is doing everyone a favor by spending thousands of dollars to keep a marginally qualified person out of med school. Depends on how you look at it.

[CUE: Outrage, sanctimony. In the distance, the gentle rustling of inflated pre-med egos can be heard...]

I'm embarrassed that I was a pre-med once.

Not everything in medicine boils down to intelligence and hard work. In fact, very little does. The work isn't even that hard. Long, yes - hard, no.

Hard is working on a factory line for 40 years doing the same repetitive motion for $10/hour, praying that you can work overtime this week for that golden $15/hour in the sky. Hard is taking the bus at 5 am everyday so that you can make the 2 hour commute to the construction site to move bags of cement in 30 degree weather. Hard is what the majority of people in this country have to put up with. It's so damned fatuous that the elite in this country not only need the highest-paying jobs and prestige, but also need to co-opt some myth of struggle and suffering to round out the package. Sure, it's work, but the work everyone seems to compare it to is rock star or part-time financial consultant.

I've worked both construction and labor. You don't know what you're talking about. Moving bags of cement or digging ditches is easy, same with turning a wrench on the assembly line. It takes very little training to do those kinds of jobs which is why a lot of people want them.

You are not going to get paid a high salary just because you are part of an elite but rather because the training required for your job is several orders of maginitude more intense, complex, or whatever adjective you care to apply.

You are going to be special. If you act the part people will treat you accordingly. Deal with it.

 

[neil100]

Or, maybe the OP is doing everyone a favor by spending thousands of dollars to keep a marginally qualified person out of med school. Depends on how you look at it.

[CUE: Outrage, sanctimony. In the distance, the gentle rustling of inflated pre-med egos can be heard...]

I'm embarrassed that I was a pre-med once.

Not everything in medicine boils down to intelligence and hard work. In fact, very little does. The work isn't even that hard. Long, yes - hard, no.

Hard is working on a factory line for 40 years doing the same repetitive motion for $10/hour, praying that you can work overtime this week for that golden $15/hour in the sky. Hard is taking the bus at 5 am everyday so that you can make the 2 hour commute to the construction site to move bags of cement in 30 degree weather. Hard is what the majority of people in this country have to put up with. It's so damned fatuous that the elite in this country not only need the highest-paying jobs and prestige, but also need to co-opt some myth of struggle and suffering to round out the package. Sure, it's work, but the work everyone seems to compare it to is rock star or part-time financial consultant.

When you have a pt. with an aortic dissection at the arch of aorta and progressing, I am sure it takes hard work as well as intelligence to 'fix up' this patient. probably prayers too.

I am pretty sure the amount of work and intelligence required depends on the specialty. All of the jobs that you describe don't require much intelligence. Sure they are an integral part of this society, no doubt. But, you get those kind of jobs because most people either aren't willing to work hard academically or not intelligent enough to pursue a career in something like medicine, PhD, etc. That is why they have ended up getting those jobs. The main part of medicine (diagnosing and treating patients through various means) really does boil down to hard work (like working really really long hours while thinking) and intelligence. If you can't make proper diagnosis(judging from people's attitudes about docs these days, many doctors can't make the diagnosis swiftly and efficiently hence giving their patients the run around, ordering useless tests, and raising their medical bill payments to give to those filthy rich insurance companies, etc. )then medicine all of the sudden becomes pretty much useless. This is where intelligence comes to play. Figuring out the right approach for surgeries, inventing new clinical procedures, doing clinical research, etc. all require intelligence and will power (putting in time to work hard towards your goal).

Oh yes it does. Ask any good and decent doctor. This is what I have heard from them and it makes sense.

Also, there are many people with 3.75-3.8+ and 33-34+ stats who don't get in. But, people with much lower stats get in without hassle. So, I guess the people with higher than avg. school stats are *****s. Yup. It has to be that.

 

[jinx520]

Oh Sweet Mother of Abraham Lincoln. Going to PA school instead of medical school is like settling for the fat, dumpy sweaty chick with bad facial hair when what you really wanted was her hot, blond, big-busted, bisexual-but-willing-to-share friend.

Even though you are the original Grumpy Old Troll Who Lives Under the Bridge, you always make me laugh. Here, I baked you some cupcakes.

 

[WellWornLad]

I've worked both construction and labor. You don't know what you're talking about. Moving bags of cement or digging ditches is easy, same with turning a wrench on the assembly line.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Both are examples of people I've worked alongside. Simple is not the same thing as easy. A lifetime of menial work is many orders of magnitude harder than working an interesting job with limited physical demands that pays handsomely and for which society showers praise upon you.

I've got no problem with people making handfuls of money. I just think it's incredibly ridiculous to frame medicine as some Herculean feat that makes us better than other people. I'm just not that insecure.

You are going to be special. If you act the part people will treat you accordingly. Deal with it.

Just what the world needs, another arrogant doctor with an entitlement complex.

I am pretty sure the amount of work and intelligence required depends on the specialty.

True, but if someone's going to make blanket statements about medicine, it should apply to the entire field, not just the most brutal specialties.

The main part of medicine (diagnosing and treating patients through various means) really does boil down to hard work (like working really really long hours while thinking) and intelligence.

As opposed to working really long hours while performing physical labor? I know which I'd rather do.

As for intelligence, I'll agree that you need it to learn medicine. In practice, however, you are rarely going to challenge your intellect while caring for a patient. Memory? Sure. Decision making? OK. Collaborative skills? Fine. Go back to those doctors you talked to and ask them if they spend most of their time wracking their brain trying to figure out what a patient's symptoms mean, or whether they have a pretty good idea after 8-10 years of training of what they're going to do within a minute of talking to their patient.

This is where intelligence comes to play. Figuring out the right approach for surgeries, inventing new clinical procedures, doing clinical research, etc. all require intelligence and will power (putting in time to work hard towards your goal).

Very few doctors actually do clinical research - which is not medicine, it's research - and even fewer develop unique clinical procedures. Unless you're mapping out a new approach for surgery (see clinical procedures), figuring out the right approach usually boils down to training.

Also, there are many people with 3.75-3.8+ and 33-34+ stats who don't get in. But, people with much lower stats get in without hassle. So, I guess the people with higher than avg. school stats are *****s. Yup. It has to be that.

I didn't say that doctors are stupid, just that they're not inventing medicine as they're going along through force of intellect. If you changed medical school admissions such that dancing was the most important characteristic of applicants, it wouldn't make dancing integral to the practice of medicine.

Edit: Oh, I see what you're objecting to here. Well, unless you think grades = qualified, my argument stands.

 

[melanoleuca]

Just what the world needs, another arrogant doctor with an entitlement complex.

Oh Good Lord. More of that egalitarian twaddle that you don't really believe. You are going to be special because, it you do it right and act like a physician, people are going to treat you differently and hold you in a higher esteem than, let's say, the guy sacking groceries or the lawyer down the street. They will do this until you give them a reason not to which is why, pace the conventional wisdom that doctors aren't respected, people respect doctors individually even if they claim to not respect the class. The only people who hate doctors are generally toothless trailer trash who want narcotics and are stymied at every turn by a physician.

Which is why, as an aside, I could never be a PA, namely because if it wasn't for the responsibility, prestige, and authority of being a physician this career would blow hard.

 

[melanoleuca]

FYI, as an Emergency Physician I make thousands of decisions every day, all of which have the potential to go south on me. Not saying that all of my patients are critical but everybody, from the drug seeker to the aortic dissection requires high-quality, reasoned decision making...more of it in a week than most people make in a whole year at their jobs.

Not the biggest fan of American goat rodeodery am I but to imply that medicine is a simple-minded pursuit that anybody can do just shows that most of you don't know nuthin'.

 

[Blesbok]

Bull****. It's capitalized because to write, "Sweet mother of Abraham Lincoln," wouldn't look or sound right. Capitalizing this also let's me avoid an exclamation mark, something I avoid whenever possible.

You don't get to Capitalize willy Nilly just because It looks proper on "pAPer".

 

[WellWornLad]

Oh Good Lord. More of that egalitarian twaddle that you don't really believe. You are going to be special because, it you do it right and act like a physician, people are going to treat you differently and hold you in a higher esteem than, let's say, the guy sacking groceries or the lawyer down the street.

It's got nothing to do with egalitarianism. People may treat me differently, and let them for all I care. It's a weak person who hangs their self-esteem on such nonsense, that's all. And in the end, when your expectation to be treated "special" turns into entitlement, you turn into the raving #$$hole who throws temper tantrums ad nauseum and berates nurses for sport.

So yeah, I suppose it can go to one's head, but here's hoping that I'm not the sort to put undue stock in the perceptions of others. It'd be just as stupid to get depressed about myself because of those "toothless trailer trash" who hate me.

BTW, are you PandaBear or just a big fan of him?

 

[Blesbok]

It's got nothing to do with egalitarianism. People may treat me differently, and let them for all I care. It's a weak person who hangs their self-esteem on such nonsense, that's all. And in the end, when your expectation to be treated "special" turns into entitlement, you turn into the raving #$$hole who throws temper tantrums ad nauseum and berates nurses for sport.

So yeah, I suppose it can go to one's head, but here's hoping that I'm not the sort to put undue stock in the perceptions of others. It'd be just as stupid to get depressed about myself because of those "toothless trailer trash" who hate me.

BTW, are you PandaBear or just a big fan of him?

I personally like to throw bed pans at the nurses for sport. 1 point for hitting them. 2 points for a head shot. 5 points for a KO. First to 21 wins.

 

[neil100]

It's got nothing to do with egalitarianism. People may treat me differently, and let them for all I care. It's a weak person who hangs their self-esteem on such nonsense, that's all. And in the end, when your expectation to be treated "special" turns into entitlement, you turn into the raving #$$hole who throws temper tantrums ad nauseum and berates nurses for sport.

So yeah, I suppose it can go to one's head, but here's hoping that I'm not the sort to put undue stock in the perceptions of others. It'd be just as stupid to get depressed about myself because of those "toothless trailer trash" who hate me.

BTW, are you PandaBear or just a big fan of him?

Wellwornlad, I don't think physicians should get all the praise. When I become a physician I will be expect myself to get the same treatment normal decent human beings. So, there is your entitlement, etc. crap argument.
The people who should get the most praise are Physics PhD researchers who do extraordinary work along with biochemistry, chemistry, and mathematics PhD. Not doctors nor lawyers nor any other professionals!!


Don't use medicine/your future profession to give you leverage for your personal views.

 

[WellWornLad]

Wellwornlad, I don't think physicians should get all the praise. When I become a physician I will be expect myself to get the same treatment normal decent human beings. So, there is your entitlement, etc. crap argument.
The people who should get the most praise are Physics PhD researchers who do extraordinary work along with biochemistry, chemistry, and mathematics PhD. Not doctors nor lawyers nor any other professionals!!


Don't use medicine/your future profession to give you leverage for your personal views.

Honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to say here...pure incoherence. You seem to be attributing to me an argument that is the polar opposite of what I've put forth.

Or, as you might say, "I will be expect myself not, etc. entitle, crap not argument."

 

[neil100]

Honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to say here...pure incoherence. You seem to be attributing to me an argument that is the polar opposite of what I've put forth.

Or, as you might say, "I will be expect myself not, etc. entitle, crap not argument."

I quoted the wrong post.
I should have quoted this.
[CUE: Outrage, sanctimony. In the distance, the gentle rustling of inflated pre-med egos can be heard...]

It's from your earlier post.