Didn't pass USMLE, can I still apply for ACGME psych programs?

[pierce28]

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Is it possible for a DO student, who didn't pass USMLE step 1 (but passed COMLEX, of course) to still apply for ACGME psychiatry programs? Or will not passing the USMLE automatically screen me out?

I previously was going to just apply to AOA programs (since I was going IM all the way) and had no interest in ACGME programs, which is why I didn't bother retaking it. From what I hear, AOA psych programs are highly discouraged. I guess worse comes worst, I would have to apply for AOA programs.

Thanks for your help in advance.

 

[DuxburyPembroke]

Do you think that you could do well if you were to retake the USMLE?

 

[jp104]

Is it possible for a DO student, who didn't pass USMLE step 1 (but passed COMLEX, of course) to still apply for ACGME psychiatry programs? Or will not passing the USMLE automatically screen me out?

I previously was going to just apply to AOA programs (since I was going IM all the way) and had no interest in ACGME programs, which is why I didn't bother retaking it. From what I hear, AOA psych programs are highly discouraged. I guess worse comes worst, I would have to apply for AOA programs.

Thanks for your help in advance.

You will have to retake the USMLE if you want to apply to an ACGME residency. A failing score will likely screen you out.

 

[DrWBD]

You will have to retake the USMLE if you want to apply to an ACGME residency. A failing score will likely screen you out.

Possibly true for more competitive residencies, but maybe not for Psychiatry. As an American graduate you may still be fairly competitive with passing COMLEX scores, despite the USMLE Step 1 failure.

 

[st2205]

Possibly true for more competitive residencies, but maybe not for Psychiatry. As an American graduate you may still be fairly competitive with passing COMLEX scores, despite the USMLE Step 1 failure.

I doubt it. Psych may not be that competitive but for DO with a USMLE failure (especially without retaking it) there are numerous FMGs and IMGs with more favorable stats who they could interview. It's possible, but in my opinion highly unlikely. If OP retook it and passed then it's a whole different ball game.

 

[donkeykong1]

Is it possible for a DO student, who didn't pass USMLE step 1 (but passed COMLEX, of course) to still apply for ACGME psychiatry programs? Or will not passing the USMLE automatically screen me out?

I previously was going to just apply to AOA programs (since I was going IM all the way) and had no interest in ACGME programs, which is why I didn't bother retaking it. From what I hear, AOA psych programs are highly discouraged. I guess worse comes worst, I would have to apply for AOA programs.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Why? Whats so "bad" about doing an AOA psych residency?

 

[K31]

Possibly true for more competitive residencies, but maybe not for Psychiatry. As an American graduate you may still be fairly competitive with passing COMLEX scores, despite the USMLE Step 1 failure.

As a DO student, do you have to release USMLE scores to the programs? And if you don't have to release them, will the programs know that you took it?

As long as your COMLEX scores are fine, I don't see why most psych programs would care that you don't have USMLE scores as well.

 

[sylvanthus]

As a DO student, do you have to release USMLE scores to the programs? And if you don't have to release them, will the programs know that you took it?

As long as your COMLEX scores are fine, I don't see why most psych programs would care that you don't have USMLE scores as well.

Yes you have to report them if you are applying to MD programs.

 

[Generick]

.

 

[Generick]

.

 

[munchymanRX]

Yes you have to report them if you are applying to MD programs.

I thought they don't check, and it's more or less an honor system? I remember reading someplace else on sdn about applicants just not reporting their crappy usmle/comlex scores...

 

[sylvanthus]

"Note to osteopathic applicants only: Before you certify your ERAS application, consider whether you will apply to ACGME and/or AOA-accredited programs. If you apply to ACGME accredited programs, and you have taken the USMLE, you must report that on your application. If you only apply to AOA accredited programs, you do not have to report the USMLE on your application."


Not sure if they check, but I would hate to get in someplace, have them find out, and boot me out for lying about it. Better to report it imo.

 

[curious3637]

Are all of the AOA psych programs undesirable?

 

[Kevin Baker]

Isn't there an annual report floating out there that has the mean scores and other data for each specialty. If I recall correctly, psych was one of the few specialties as a whole where passing the USMLE was recommended but not needed, but I may be mixing that up with 1st time pass rates. Regardless, I'd advise retaking it.

 

[TTSS]

It all depends on how well you do the second time you take it. To my understanding, the process may screen you out but a very well score may save you as I have heard that exceptions are possible. Everyone has bad days but if you can do very well the second time around then I would say their still may be a chance.

Good luck!

ttss.

 

[st2205]

There are two different issues we're talking about here:

1. Can an osteopathic applicant with a failed first attempt on USMLE match into a psych program?
2. Can an osteopathic applicant with a single failed attempt on USMLE match into a psych program?

These are two largely separate questions.

 

[CiproFloxaFlame]

"Note to osteopathic applicants only: Before you certify your ERAS application, consider whether you will apply to ACGME and/or AOA-accredited programs. If you apply to ACGME accredited programs, and you have taken the USMLE, you must report that on your application. If you only apply to AOA accredited programs, you do not have to report the USMLE on your application."


Not sure if they check, but I would hate to get in someplace, have them find out, and boot me out for lying about it. Better to report it imo.

If they find out you lied about taking the USMLE, then you will get blackballed by the ACGME match.

 

[DrWBD]

I would hate to get in someplace, have them find out, and boot me out for lying about it. Better to report it imo.

Program Director: "So, because as a residency program director I have nothing better to do than check up on things like this, I found out you actually took USMLE Step 1, failed, and didn't report it to us."
D.O. PGY-3: "And?"
Program Director: "So even though it has no bearing on you getting licensed since you passed the COMLEX and we're only screwing ourselves by having one less resident to do work and take call, you're being kicked out. I will post your position on Findaresident.com so we will have a <10% chance of finding someone remotely qualified to replace you that actually speaks English."

Yeah I don't see this happening.

 

[DrWBD]

If they find out you lied about taking the USMLE, then you will get blackballed by the ACGME match.

You need to consent to release your scores for anyone to find out you took the USMLE.

 

[sylvanthus]

It is safer to follow the rules than lie about taking the USMLE. Are you honestly saying this person should hide the fact that they took the USMLE? Please mention where you are an attending.

 

[DrWBD]

It is safer to follow the rules than lie about taking the USMLE. Are you honestly saying this person should hide the fact that they took the USMLE? Please mention where you are an attending.

Are you saying my statement is incorrect? I did not, by the way, state that this person should or shouldn't hide anything.

 

[sylvanthus]

Hmm you mention that no PD would likely look and that the person has to release their scores for anyone to find out they took it. WTF do you think that implies?

 

[DrWBD]

Hmm you mention that no PD would likely look and that the person has to release their scores for anyone to find out they took it. WTF do you think that implies?

You're using my completely fictitious tongue-in-cheek scenario as proof that a program director could somehow find out your USMLE scores?

I'm not trying to insult you. It's just that I've seen this question asked many times already. People have openly admitted in the past that they have done this or know people who have done this and not gotten caught (do a search). Weighing risks and benefits, it's totally rational to not want to break any rules, I get that completely. I'm just pointing out, like I have in the past, that this rule seems to be unenforceable since USMLE records aren't supposed to be accessible to anyone without consent of the applicant.

 

[sylvanthus]

I could care fukin less if people have gotten away with it in the past and not been caught. The rules clearly state that you need to release your USMLE score if you took it. Who the fuk knows if the PDs can find out, what method they may use, or whatever. It is just not worth it to break the rules at this point in the game.

And this.... "You're using my completely fictitious tongue-in-cheek scenario as proof that a program director could somehow find out your USMLE scores? " makes no fukin sense whatsover. I used your "tongue-in-cheek" scenario to essentially state that you are encouraging lying and covering up a person's score.

 

[DrWBD]

I could care fukin less if people have gotten away with it in the past and not been caught. The rules clearly state that you need to release your USMLE score if you took it. Who the fuk knows if the PDs can find out, what method they may use, or whatever. It is just not worth it to break the rules at this point in the game.

And this.... "You're using my completely fictitious tongue-in-cheek scenario as proof that a program director could somehow find out your USMLE scores? " makes no fukin sense whatsover. I used your "tongue-in-cheek" scenario to essentially state that you are encouraging lying and covering up a person's score.

It seems you don't like your opinions questioned.
As I said, it's completely rational to want to follow the rules, and I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for doing so.
Done with this discussion.

 

[sylvanthus]

Seriously, how are you failing basic logic? This is not my opinion, this is the rule.

 

[peppy]

Why? Whats so "bad" about doing an AOA psych residency?

I never interviewed with any of the DO psych programs except for the Henry Ford Hospital psych program in MI (which I do feel is one of the best DO psych programs, and if you do go for DO psych I would recommend considering that one...it's actually a dual accredited program that takes DOs and MDs, but DOs are only accepted from the DO match).
That being said, here are some of the concerns I've heard raised about DO psych residencies:

-Problems with stability/funding (Arrowhead's psychiatry program closed briefly, apparently due to funding problems. Although it's now apparently open again somehow, that kind of track record is concerning.

-Limited clinical sites. Apparently, some of the DO programs are very heavily focused on the VA or at prison facilities. Now, I think that the VA is a great place to learn at as a psych resident, and prison could certainly be interesting too, but it will obviously give you a pretty skewed perspective of psychiatry if that's where you spend most of residency training at.

-Making psychiatry residents do OMM. Apparently, at least some (maybe all? Not sure) DO psych residencies have requirements for their residents to continue learning/practicing OMM throughout residency, though one DO psych resident said that they were told it was a "personal choice" whether to do it on real patients or not.
While I can see how OMM is a skill that DOs going into something like family medicine or PM&R probably should continue to train in, it seems like there are better things to teach future psychiatrists.
Honestly, I would be concerned that touching patients in the ways that doctors touch them for OMM could cause problems, confusion, and possible liability for a psychiatrist who was doing OMM on real psych patients.

-Very limited fellowship opportunities in DO psych. There are only a very small number of child psych fellowships in the DO world and I think maybe one forensic one. Not sure how the quality of those fellowhips are, but clearly you have more options for fellowship in the MD psych world.
I'm not sure, but I suspect that it would cause problems trying to get an ACGME fellowship from a DO residency...however I have no firsthand knowledge since I don't know anyone who tried to do a fellowship from a DO psych residency.
Even if it is possible, you would probably be at a disadvantage at many fellowship places since many residencies like to take their own residents for fellowships.

Still, if all you want is to be a general psychiatrist, it doesn't really matter where you do residency as long as you get through it, so if you think you're in danger of not matching in the MD psych match, I would definitely take a look at the DO psych programs and try to find one you would feel comfortable with.

You could apply to both MD and DO psych programs then decide whether to go through the DO match depending on how many interviews in the MD match you get.

 

[ToldYouSo]

I could care fukin less if people have gotten away with it in the past and not been caught. The rules clearly state that you need to release your USMLE score if you took it. Who the fuk knows if the PDs can find out, what method they may use, or whatever. It is just not worth it to break the rules at this point in the game.

And this.... "You're using my completely fictitious tongue-in-cheek scenario as proof that a program director could somehow find out your USMLE scores? " makes no fukin sense whatsover. I used your "tongue-in-cheek" scenario to essentially state that you are encouraging lying and covering up a person's score.

 

[CiproFloxaFlame]

You need to consent to release your scores for anyone to find out you took the USMLE.

No kidding. But, now you are required to release your USMLE scores if you want to go to an ACGME program. Read the rules again:

"Note to osteopathic applicants only: Before you certify your ERAS application, consider whether you will apply to ACGME and/or AOA-accredited programs. If you apply to ACGME accredited programs, and you have taken the USMLE, you must report that on your application. If you only apply to AOA accredited programs, you do not have to report the USMLE on your application."

 

[as90]

What if you took it afterwards?

 

[Jamie561]

Seriously, how are you failing basic logic? This is not my opinion, this is the rule.

He is not questioning the rule, he is commenting on the enforceability of the rule. These are 2 different topics.

 

[GUH]

-Making psychiatry residents do OMM. Apparently, at least some (maybe all? Not sure) DO psych residencies have requirements for their residents to continue learning/practicing OMM throughout residency, though one DO psych resident said that they were told it was a "personal choice" whether to do it on real patients or not.
While I can see how OMM is a skill that DOs going into something like family medicine or PM&R probably should continue to train in, it seems like there are better things to teach future psychiatrists.
Honestly, I would be concerned that touching patients in the ways that doctors touch them for OMM could cause problems, confusion, and possible liability for a psychiatrist who was doing OMM on real psych patients.

Awesome posts, but don't most pscyh residents in both AOA and ACGME programs have to do some non-psych clinical work? It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to require a DO to continue practicing OMM if he's already being required to do shifts at a medical clinic.

 

[DrWBD]

He is not questioning the rule, he is commenting on the enforceability of the rule. These are 2 different topics.

Thank you.

 

[smilingcalidoc]

There seems to be a lot of discussion about this disclosure of USMLE scores for DO students applying ACGME in the previous years, but nothing recent. Can anyone comment on whether they applied last cycle 2014 and did not disclose USMLE scores when applying ACGME and what happened? I don't understand why if the program accepts the COMLEX, a person who took one level of the USMLE (1 or 2 ) has to disclose their scores.

 

[jakeislove]

I'd end up worrying about it 4 years and when applying for fellowship, LOL!

 

[serimeri]

I never interviewed with any of the DO psych programs except for the Henry Ford Hospital psych program in MI (which I do feel is one of the best DO psych programs, and if you do go for DO psych I would recommend considering that one...it's actually a dual accredited program that takes DOs and MDs, but DOs are only accepted from the DO match).
That being said, here are some of the concerns I've heard raised about DO psych residencies:

-Problems with stability/funding (Arrowhead's psychiatry program closed briefly, apparently due to funding problems. Although it's now apparently open again somehow, that kind of track record is concerning.

-Limited clinical sites. Apparently, some of the DO programs are very heavily focused on the VA or at prison facilities. Now, I think that the VA is a great place to learn at as a psych resident, and prison could certainly be interesting too, but it will obviously give you a pretty skewed perspective of psychiatry if that's where you spend most of residency training at.

-Making psychiatry residents do OMM. Apparently, at least some (maybe all? Not sure) DO psych residencies have requirements for their residents to continue learning/practicing OMM throughout residency, though one DO psych resident said that they were told it was a "personal choice" whether to do it on real patients or not.
While I can see how OMM is a skill that DOs going into something like family medicine or PM&R probably should continue to train in, it seems like there are better things to teach future psychiatrists.
Honestly, I would be concerned that touching patients in the ways that doctors touch them for OMM could cause problems, confusion, and possible liability for a psychiatrist who was doing OMM on real psych patients.

-Very limited fellowship opportunities in DO psych. There are only a very small number of child psych fellowships in the DO world and I think maybe one forensic one. Not sure how the quality of those fellowhips are, but clearly you have more options for fellowship in the MD psych world.
I'm not sure, but I suspect that it would cause problems trying to get an ACGME fellowship from a DO residency...however I have no firsthand knowledge since I don't know anyone who tried to do a fellowship from a DO psych residency.
Even if it is possible, you would probably be at a disadvantage at many fellowship places since many residencies like to take their own residents for fellowships.

Still, if all you want is to be a general psychiatrist, it doesn't really matter where you do residency as long as you get through it, so if you think you're in danger of not matching in the MD psych match, I would definitely take a look at the DO psych programs and try to find one you would feel comfortable with.

You could apply to both MD and DO psych programs then decide whether to go through the DO match depending on how many interviews in the MD match you get.

I didnt read your whole post, but i totally agree about the OMM part. My preceptor, NEVER SHOOK hands with his patients, he said he knew of a case of his colleague where it was misconstrued as harrasment.

 

[DansStudentDocRole]

Hey DO STUDENT,

Pardon me but it seems like your in med school, congratulations!
Could you plz help and tell me what's the minimum hours of healthcare clinical experience might be accepted for a premed? Also what's the lowest kind of accepted applicant you saw? Please help ASAP! Thank you.


Try to live in peace with everyone. And try to keep your lives free from sin. Anyone whose life is not holy will never see the Lord. (‭Hebrews‬ ‭12‬:‭14‬ ERV)

 

[Anduin]

There seems to be a lot of discussion about this disclosure of USMLE scores for DO students applying ACGME in the previous years, but nothing recent. Can anyone comment on whether they applied last cycle 2014 and did not disclose USMLE scores when applying ACGME and what happened? I don't understand why if the program accepts the COMLEX, a person who took one level of the USMLE (1 or 2 ) has to disclose their scores.

You're technically required to disclose your score, but sometimes people don't. I know some residents at really solid IM programs who failed the USMLE and didn't report it.