Difference between an NP and PA

[Mad Jack]

Oh, as to the study- here is an allnurses thread discussing it as a parting gift. Many of the pages containing the results have been taken down over the years, as it was a striking example of how poorly DNPs were trained, and was thus buried. If you look around enough I'm sure you can find the results, or if you contact Columbia directly I'm sure someone there would be familiar with the project.

http://allnurses.com/doctor-nursing-practice/dnps-failing-the-375228.html

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mad Jack]

Enjoy your summer as well, and good luck with school.

For whatever reason alerts were showing up, so I clicked show ignored content.

 

[762513]

Oh, as to the study- here is an allnurses thread discussing it as a parting gift. Many of the pages containing the results have been taken down over the years, as it was a striking example of how poorly DNPs were trained, and was thus buried. If you look around enough I'm sure you can find the results, or if you contact Columbia directly I'm sure someone there would be familiar with the project.

http://allnurses.com/doctor-nursing-practice/dnps-failing-the-375228.html

Thanks. Despite our disagreements I have enjoyed this discussion with you. We have both been frustrated, but remained civil. Have a good rest of your summer.

 

[NYCGuy86]

Oh, as to the study- here is an allnurses thread discussing it as a parting gift. Many of the pages containing the results have been taken down over the years, as it was a striking example of how poorly DNPs were trained, and was thus buried. If you look around enough I'm sure you can find the results, or if you contact Columbia directly I'm sure someone there would be familiar with the project.

http://allnurses.com/doctor-nursing-practice/dnps-failing-the-375228.html

http://abcc.dnpcert.org/exam-pass-rates/

 

[NYCGuy86]

In a number of states (I believe NY is one of them), before an NP can have "independent practice" (basically meaning a collaborative/supervisory agreement with a physician is not necessary to diagnose and/or prescribe), they must complete 3000 hours of collaborative/supervised practice with a physician. I think this makes more sense than having those privileges directly out of school.

 

[NYCGuy86]

Oh, as to the study- here is an allnurses thread discussing it as a parting gift. Many of the pages containing the results have been taken down over the years, as it was a striking example of how poorly DNPs were trained, and was thus buried. If you look around enough I'm sure you can find the results, or if you contact Columbia directly I'm sure someone there would be familiar with the project.

http://allnurses.com/doctor-nursing-practice/dnps-failing-the-375228.html

Haven't gone through the thread completely, but I think one of the PAs there posted a balanced viewpoint:

"The problem is you need more information than just the pass rate. I don't think that USMLE has ever published their exact scoring process, but I am guessing that its a dynamic scoring process similar to what is used on the PANCE where each question carries a certain weight. Depending on the question you can have a variable passing score. I am also guessing that the "experts" that developed this test off of what the USMLE provided did not have the experience to do this. This essentially makes the pass rate statistically questionable.

I would also like to see some demographics associated with this. There are a number of NP specialties represented here theoretically. It would be unusual for a Neonatal Nurse Practitioner whose patient population consists of those between 1 day and six months old to pass a test that is primarily based on adult inpatient medicine. Similarly given the number of pediatric questions on the example test, I would guess that someone doing adult outpatient medicine might have a hard time. Since they are testing NPs in areas that they are not trained in, essentially what they are measuring is the ability to pass the test. It calls into question the whole "certification" concept. "

 

[NYCGuy86]

Haven't gone through the thread completely, but I think one of the PAs there posted a balanced viewpoint:

"The problem is you need more information than just the pass rate. I don't think that USMLE has ever published their exact scoring process, but I am guessing that its a dynamic scoring process similar to what is used on the PANCE where each question carries a certain weight. Depending on the question you can have a variable passing score. I am also guessing that the "experts" that developed this test off of what the USMLE provided did not have the experience to do this. This essentially makes the pass rate statistically questionable.

I would also like to see some demographics associated with this. There are a number of NP specialties represented here theoretically. It would be unusual for a Neonatal Nurse Practitioner whose patient population consists of those between 1 day and six months old to pass a test that is primarily based on adult inpatient medicine. Similarly given the number of pediatric questions on the example test, I would guess that someone doing adult outpatient medicine might have a hard time. Since they are testing NPs in areas that they are not trained in, essentially what they are measuring is the ability to pass the test. It calls into question the whole "certification" concept. "

Actually, now that I look into it, I'm not sure if his point in the second paragraph is valid, because one of the Eligibility requirements is:

• Be prepared as a Nurse Practitioner to provide care across the life span

The only NPs prepared to provide care across the life span are FNPs, so I guess that would mean Adult NPs (primary and acute), Pediatric NPs (primary and acute) and Neonatal NPs would be excluded?

 

[762513]

If medical students took the NCLEX I promise a 50% pass rate as well.

 

[hamstergang]

If medical students took the NCLEX I promise a 50% pass rate as well.

But med students aren't learning how to do the work of nurses while NPs/DNPs are learning how to do the work of doctors.

 

[762513]

But med students aren't learning how to do the work of nurses while NPs/DNPs are learning how to do the work of doctors.

Ah yes. Good point. But advanced nursing is done in the "nursing model." Which I don't agree with. If nurses are learning how to diagnose and treat disease then they should buy into a medical model education, which they don't.

Having nurses who are taught by other nurses take a test designed for a completely different discipline may be like a electrical engineer taking a final exam planned for a medical engineer.

APRNs should embrace and use medical school curriculum. My school does use the Robins patho book and medical school epidemiological case studies, and this is a good start, but it should go much, much farther.

We can maintain our nursing roots AND learn how to diagnose and treat disease at a level closer to the physicians than we do now. It's not either/or.

 

[Makati2008]

Ah yes. Good point. But advanced nursing is done in the "nursing model." Which I don't agree with. If nurses are learning how to diagnose and treat disease then they should buy into a medical model education, which they don't.

Having nurses who are taught by other nurses take a test designed for a completely different discipline may be like a electrical engineer taking a final exam planned for a medical engineer.

APRNs should embrace and use medical school curriculum. My school does use the Robins patho book and medical school epidemiological case studies, and this is a good start, but it should go much, much farther.

We can maintain our nursing roots AND learn how to diagnose and treat disease at a level closer to the physicians than we do now. It's not either/or.

I personally think it's inexcusable. If you want to practice medicine you should be able to figure out a diagnosis or treatment. Step 3 is just that with a sprinkle of basic science and biostatistics


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[BreathDeep]

Ah yes. Good point. But advanced nursing is done in the "nursing model."

I've always wondered, what does this actually mean?

Say a physician and a nurse practitioner see a patient in the ED who presents with shortness of breath. They do a physical exam, order a CXR, EKG, blood work. They then diagnose that patient with pneumonia and order an antibiotic. How exactly is one practicing medicine and the other advanced nursing? What's the difference?

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I've always wondered, what does this actually mean?

Say a physician and a nurse practitioner see a patient in the ED who presents with shortness of breath. They do a physical exam, order a CXR, EKG, blood work. They then diagnose that patient with pneumonia and order an antibiotic. How exactly is one practicing medicine and the other advanced nursing? What's the difference?

If I were to have sent classified info over an unsecured server I would be prosecuted, but a Clinton can do it and become President.

You and I can't accept a PEN from a drug rep because it might influence our job, but the Clintons can filter hundreds of millions of dollars from foreign interests through their foundation while she is Secretary of State.

If a NP puts in a chest tube it's practicing nursing, if a MD/DO/PA does it it's practicin medicine.

It's politics.

 

[762513]

If I were Trump and running for president and my chief advisor took millions in contributions from one of my countries enemies in order to help get me elected it's no big deal, but if a healthcare professional accepts a free lunch during a seminar it's a bribe.

If there is a unique nursing model approach I'll let you know when they teach it to me.

It's politics.