Different perspective on DVM/PhD

[hollabackcat]

Don't automatically brush off this topic because I know there's a few other threads out there concerning the DVM/PhD programs; but I have yet to find an opinion on my specific question so here goes (and sorry if I just overlooked a thread that did in fact address this):

As someone just beginning their pre vet years, I've poured over this forum and of course been reasonably saddened (at some times even heartbroken) over how financial situations can throw someone's dreams for a loop. I won't go into detail, but that's just what sparked my interest in DVM/PhD as opposed to a regular DVM.

In the other threads, peoples' main focus was on whether the time dedication was worth it to pursue the dual degree. Things such as actual interest in research vs clinical studies was explored in detail, but my question is this:

I've hunted down a few of these programs, and maybe half offer full tuition waivers for the PhD portion of the program (which I hear is pretty normal); however, several ALSO offer full compensation for the DVM, not to mention a few with living stipends, etc.

Essentially, in return for 7-8 years, the school is paying off all your debt.

Now, I know this must come off as opportunistic, but if you can get into such a program (and not be quite 100% dedicated to research, but a good deal at least) isn't it definitely worth it? The economics become a non sequitor. And you also have that additional degree to back you up as far as career options.

Obviously, it's a mountain more work. But if you can move past that (as I think many people make themselves, even in the face of a normal vetmed degree), I have to say that the benefits far outweigh the cons in the situation.

I mean, c'mon, coming out of vetmed debt free? It's like a faery tale.

Now, admittedly, this is a somewhat naive look on things. Assuming someone can even GET INTO the DVM/PhD program, there's obviously the incredible workload to handle as well as any relationships to balance.
Personally, I was very interested in at least exploring it. I'm just a lowly college freshman, but the more educated I become about my options, the better I can prepare myself, and I have come to the following conclusion:

I primarily want to practice in LA med, specifically rural area. That was even before I found out there are some tuition reimbursement programs tied to such a career. As far as research, if I were to get the experience in undergrad and find it acceptable, it would be nice to have that PhD to fall back on. I've read about a lot of vets avoiding LA because it's a physically exerting job and, as you get older, can prove very detrimental to your family life (unpredicatable hours) as well as your aging body (handling large animals is always risky). So having the option to perhaps teach when I'm older and conduct research on the side, and still contribute to a career field that I'm so passionate about, is alluring. I understand you can teach without a PhD, but still.

So basically this is me asking for opinions, and perhaps validation- Is there some glaring part of a dual degree that I've overlooked?

Also, it's my understanding that a few (if not all?) schools immediately reconcile you to their DVM applicant pool if you're not accepted to the DVM/PhD program. So either way, you're covering all your bases.

But it does in fact sound too good to be true, probably because I have no feasible way to imagine the workload, and am in no position to know what other commitments I'll have on my time then.

Sorry for the long post! Just some ideas I wanted to get out there

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[breenie]

Grad school has a higher dropout/failout rate that vet school for a few reasons. 1) often you aren't paying for it, so there is less risk in just quitting 2) it's hard 3) the hours are long 4) your chances of employment after graduation are less certain

Grad school and vet school both suck, but in different ways. My boyfriend is a chem grad student and 3 people from his group have been fired/quit/didn't make it through the program this semester alone. Also, how long you're there for isn't a set amount of time.

I could go on and on, but the fact is with most science grad programs, only the truly committed survive, and not even always with them. Try to remember, too, the opportunity cost for the PhD. You're giving up 3-7 extra years of salary (yes, 7, possibly even more depending on how long you piddle around for. PhDs don't come in a set time frame). If you were making $50k a year out of school, you're losing $150,000 - $350,000. The cost of a veterinary education, in some cases.

Grad school wrecks people, and I think vet school is slightly more survivable because it's consistent (relatively), structured, and there is a tangible end date/goal. It's not something I would do frivolously, or just because there is some financial gain.

 

[hollabackcat]

Those are all very fair, and obviously more informed, points.

The duration of PhD, and its demand on your time, are very discouraging things. Perhaps because I hope to be in LA, I don't necessarily see the extra time as such a problem. SA vets will no doubt come out of vet school and have a much bigger chance of making a significant amount. Enough to pay off the DVM debts in a timely manner, certainly. LA vets don't have quite the same security, and as I mentioned, the ability to practice with LA for your entire career is contingent on a few unpredictable factors.

For most people, this wouldn't be feasible. That of course is reflected by the dwindling number of applicants to such dual programs. But for the few who are willing, I think it's an excellent opportunity to be financially responsible as well as making your dreams a reality. Even 7 years more, in the long run, will be a fairly low impact if you come out with greater job security and a more stable starting ground.

I certainly wouldn't approach it as frivolous, as you mentioned, it would require a good deal of dedication beyond that.

Just wanted people's thoughts and to get the thought process out.
For those exploring their options, it's certainly nice to at least have this to muse over during undegrad. Acceptance into such a program demands a great deal of research experience, so it was nice for me to kind of discover and hash it out with myself so that I know I at least want to explore research in undergrad as an option.

 

[breenie]

I don't think you should view LA as a financial death trap. Or even a physical one. I personally don't want to own/run my own clinic. That may change when I get older, but the realities you outlined are more realities for me than someone who is willing to take on that burden.

Owning clinics can be very profitable, and as the boss, you can have a sweeter schedule. LA in and of itself isn't a deathtrap. Working for someone else in Butthole, WI for peanuts, well, yeah, that can suck. Remember, too, that while you're working on your PhD, you aren't practicing. Years of experience influence salary, mobility, marketibility and your own job satisfaction. Do you want to be 5 years out of school and explain to potential employers that the reason you haven't had hands on experience for so long is because you were pursuing a degree you didn't really intend to use?

Not trying to be argumentative, just throwing it out there for you to think about.

Also, some people really hate research. Keep that in mind. Even the people who love it have really really bad days with it. I tease my boyfriend about the "orange flakes" pretty regularly. He really biffed up a reaction he was supposed to work up, and a solution that was supposed to be colorless and clear turned into a massive mess of orange flakes, 1 wasted week of work, and countless hours of nervousness that his boss would tar and feather him for the mistake. If your heart is in dehorning baby goats and herd health, it's going to be hard to sit through even research directly related to that somedays. Not all the days, but some of the days. And if you don't have some level of passion or animalistic will to survive to fall back on, you might not like research so much.

 

[hollabackcat]

Hm, I hadn't considered taking time for another degree might be viewed detrimentally. But that's true.

Ahh, I just want to keep the dream alive! Haha.
Personally, I'm going to have to pay off my entire undergrad by myself, as well as any subsequent schooling. So the idea of getting more school in (I actually love school, but I can see there's a substantial difference between school and research of course) and having it paid for me, that just sounds like a dream.


At the end of the day, it'll just depend upon how much passion I end up having for research, that's obvious now. I'm pretty sure it will never outweigh the dedication I feel for dehorning, and delivering foals, and other farmer vet tasks.

Guess that answers the question :]

Now to find a rural tuition forgiveness program

 

[eventualeventer]

I'm not sure where you got the idea of dwindling applicants to these programs. When I was looking into the idea during application year, places like Penn said that the numbers of applicants were skyrocketing! You are far from the only one to be attracted by the monetary and career benefits, and the well-established dual degree programs are extremely competitive. Think of it as having to be good enough for the vet program and the PhD program AND competing with the other people who want the specific combined program slots, of which there are a handful or fewer each year per school. Even nyanko, the crazy smart crazy cat (genetics research) lady who was working on her MS at the time, did not get much love in the DVM/PhD department. I'm not trying to be mean, just pointing out that the odds are very much against you. If you really want to do this, you need very good grades and serious undergrad research experience (as in your own projects, not just feeding Drosophila for a grad student).

As a side note, my considered opinion is that you would be insane to pay tuition/go into debt for a graduate research degree in the sciences in general, so, yes, I expect that someone that the vet school thought enough of to admit for a dual degree would be guaranteed funding. My dad is a long-time academic scientist (entomology/biology) and now part-time administrator, so I have pretty much grown up in the academic environment surrounded by grad students and faculty. In the sciences expecting students to pay just isn't done if the student and the program are any good.

I've heard concerns about the difficulties of splitting up your veterinary education, rejoining a different cohort, etc., so I'm not sure that a simultaneous program is worth it unless they are in fact paying for your veterinary education, which not all programs do. The ones that do are even more competitive than the ones that don't. If they aren't, it's probably not worth it to do a combined program vs. getting your DVM and then doing a PhD afterward, which also has the advantage that you have a lot more flexibility in choosing your advisor, location, and research topic. VMRCVM expects you to start your PhD work, drop it for 4 years while you do your vet work, and then go back and finish your PhD work quickly for a total of 3 years of work on your PhD. My dad the scientist also thinks that this is liable to cause problems for serious research projects, which often require continuity and half the time require that you revamp and redo part of your work due to unexpected results or problems. I'm not entirely convinced I won't end up Piled Higher and Deeper in academia, but for now I am just doing the vet school thing and trying to get involved in research where I can. Honestly, I wouldn't have gotten into any out of state programs (and VMRCVM was my IS) anyway, so that was part of my calculus as well.

And, yes, breenie is right, you have to be insanely dedicated and persistent, and possibly even just a little insane, to succeed in research. You need to go into a PhD program because you want to do research so badly it hurts, not because it seems like an expedient thing to do to help you pay your bills and advance your career. Even then, people find out that they're not as dedicated as they thought they were and decide that the toll of beating your head against a wall for years isn't worth it. There is a HUGE difference between school-as-in-classes and the existential crisis of being a basic science PhD who goes through periods wondering what the heck they are doing and whether they will ever get anything meaningful out of their project.

ETA: Sorry, it looks like you both posted while I was pontificating, but I'm posting anyway.

 

[hollabackcat]

Oh! I suppose I was reading old information, because the people were talking about how Dual Degree PhD/DVM is a dying breed thanks to many of the things you mentioned.

I was previously aware of how competitive they potentially could be (and evidently, will be). I also know that many wouldn't work for me; as you mentioned, some don't pay DVM, and others have it split up (VMRCVM is my IS as well). I had seen a few programs that did it separately, and paid for both, so those were the ones I was interested in.
As far as not getting in, I would gladly move past that and accept a DVM acceptance if it was in the works.

As you say-- the program would require quite a bit of UG preparation. Which is why I was happy to find it while I still have my UG ahead of me to plan.

As far as how hard it is, and how dedicated you have to be, I would obviously be taking serious stock of the situation before attempting to apply/accepting a position.

This was simply a musing of sorts I know I'm a little new to this forum
(posting wise) and that many students like me just browse around. Having this thread where the full benefits/consequences are discussed is a little more helpful (at least to me) than the standard debate of clinic vs. research that the other dual degree threads seem contain.

Your opinion is of course graciously accepted, and appreciated!

 

[jmo1012]

my advice for you would be to go get some research experience before you really worry about a DVM/PhD program to see how much you like research. i had always thought that if I didnt end up in either vet or med school (because I decided i wasnt interested) that i would get my masters/phd in a research field like microbiology. then i worked in a lab for 2 years (and we actually did stuff not just menial tasks) and really found it to be incredibly boring and mundane. had a good laugh over the fact that i wanted to do it as a career at one point

 

[hollabackcat]

my advice for you would be to go get some research experience before you really worry about a DVM/PhD program to see how much you like research.

Exactly my intention! Really, the purpose of this thread was to get some feedback but also let people (obviously not the veterans, but the fresh outta high school kids ) know it's an option. And of course, if they want to pursue it, they should begin looking for research opportunities to "test the waters", etc.

I am someone who's extremely avid about vetmed, and has always known this is what I want to do, but I of course know plenty of people who aren't completely sure, or are getting a late start. I think threads like these, as well as countless other threads on SDN, illuminate options that casual passerby don't necessarily know are available. And options can help make someone's decision, one way or the other.

When I was scouting around for threads regarding this, they didn't answer all my questions, so I wanted to take the brunt of what I'd learned and just kind of culminate it.

I'm nowhere near making the decision for myself, but at least there's an easy place people can see the pros/cons, opinions, etc.

I guess I was just trying to expand upon our database of info aha. Make it a bit more cohesive concerning this point.

 

[eventualeventer]

It's definitely a thread worth having, and it sounds like you're doing all the right things.

 

[kittyterran]

Hollabackcat, keep your head up! I am a rising sophomore in undergrad as well, seeking research experience in hopes of possibly applying to a dual degree program. I'm not sure if I am insane enough to want to follow through, but I think that its good to start with high ambitions. Personally, with all the attention on One Health Initiative, IMO research experience is going to be in demand in the veterinary field. And thinking about how crude veterinary medicine is compared to human medicine, wouldn't you want to contribute to actively advancing veterinary medicine? Don't give up on your dreams!

 

[hai1983]

And thinking about how crude veterinary medicine is compared to human medicine, wouldn't you want to contribute to actively advancing veterinary medicine?

Can I ask what you mean by this, and what you're basing this opinion on?

 

[SnowyRox]

Get yourself into a research lab now and start getting experience!

I had similar thoughts as you... until I started actually working on my own research projects. NOT a fan of bench research. I loved working in an ecology lab, but it didn't make sense for me to try for a PhD in something related to ecology (wildlife med?) if I want to work in a SA hospital.

You don't have to just like research to survive a PhD. You have to LOVE it. You need to be the one at the bar with your friends on the weekend who can't shut up about their cool genetics work.

I hope you're understanding from this thread that this is not something to undertake lightly. If you're really worried about cost, your best bet is to establish residency somewhere with cheap IS tuition.

 

[Camelidcrazy]

Ill just say that a VERY smart veterinarian I know who is an administrator for my school summed up how she felt about her DVM/PhD:

I'm a worse veterinarian and a worse toxicologist because of it.

Sounds a bit brutal, but I've heard the same opinion reflected by many research veterinarians I know (about 4). I'm not trying to deter you, just suggesting that you talk to as many DVM/PhDs as possible before entering into something that will monopolize most of your time for 7-8yrs. Honestly, research is not something you enter into for the money. Ever. It's a mentally demanding job that takes a hefty toll on every grad student I've ever met (I work in research in academia, so I know plenty). So let me echo pretty much everyone else here- get as much research experience as you can. And I don't mean a dishwasher or autoclaver positions (although those are good starting points), I mean try and find a PI who will assign you your own project during the summer and have to critically think through all the problems you encounter on your own. Working for months on a project that fails completely is not something every person can do for an extended amount of time. Burnout is high.

That being said, I'm one of the ones that actually really loves research so if you do stay on the DVM/PhD track, I think it's awesome! And I think researching this plan thoroughly and getting many opinions before becoming dead set on the idea is a genuine sign of maturity way beyond the years of the average college freshman. So kudos!

 

[nyanko]

You don't have to just like research to survive a PhD. You have to LOVE it. You need to be the one at the bar with your friends on the weekend who can't shut up about their cool genetics work.

 

[Tiger369]

I could go on and on, but the fact is with most science grad programs, only the truly committed survive, and not even always with them. Try to remember, too, the opportunity cost for the PhD. You're giving up 3-7 extra years of salary (yes, 7, possibly even more depending on how long you piddle around for. PhDs don't come in a set time frame). If you were making $50k a year out of school, you're losing $150,000 - $350,000. The cost of a veterinary education, in some cases.

This is true. But, doesn't it usually take a normal vet school grad about 20-30 yrs to pay off their loan debt for going to vet school? Meaning that yes you will be losing alot of money, but if you can get all of your PhD and vet school for free, wouldn't that be better in the long run? Just curious. I don't know a whole lot about this dual degree program for vet school. So I definitely like this thread

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Ill just say that a VERY smart veterinarian I know who is an administrator for my school summed up how she felt about her DVM/PhD:

I'm a worse veterinarian and a worse toxicologist because of it.

Sounds a bit brutal, but I've heard the same opinion reflected by many research veterinarians I know (about 4). I'm not trying to deter you, just suggesting that you talk to as many DVM/PhDs as possible before entering into something that will monopolize most of your time for 7-8yrs. Honestly, research is not something you enter into for the money. Ever. It's a mentally demanding job that takes a hefty toll on every grad student I've ever met (I work in research in academia, so I know plenty). So let me echo pretty much everyone else here- get as much research experience as you can. And I don't mean a dishwasher or autoclaver positions (although those are good starting points), I mean try and find a PI who will assign you your own project during the summer and have to critically think through all the problems you encounter on your own. Working for months on a project that fails completely is not something every person can do for an extended amount of time. Burnout is high.

That being said, I'm one of the ones that actually really loves research so if you do stay on the DVM/PhD track, I think it's awesome! And I think researching this plan thoroughly and getting many opinions before becoming dead set on the idea is a genuine sign of maturity way beyond the years of the average college freshman. So kudos!

That administrator has it nailed. I have yet to see any evidence that a DVM/PhD is a more insightful, original or more productive researcher than just someone who has the PhD in producing new knowledge. I think these programs are just not feasible because they split up your efforts too much and between two different fields with two different end products. A DVM will always be directed more toward applying knowledge without making too many mistakes and curing the patient. A researcher is directed toward exploring new problems and producing new knowledge. I think that a DVM could do good research but it would require a specific program focusing more on "research" practice than on "clinical" practice and also acceptance by the research community which appear to be dominated by PhDs and some MDs with the post doc experience.

Peter Doherty, the Australian veterinarian who won a Nobel prize in 1996, in his book Beginners' Guide to Winning the Nobel Prize describes his long road to getting his PhD. He also studied veterinary medicine because he wanted to study biology which men were not allowed to study in college in Australia at that time. He really did not want to work with people at all but chose veterinary medicine as a pathway into doing basic biomedical research. He really has some great words of wisdom on how the research world works and what makes a great researcher.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hollabackcat, keep your head up! I am a rising sophomore in undergrad as well, seeking research experience in hopes of possibly applying to a dual degree program. I'm not sure if I am insane enough to want to follow through, but I think that its good to start with high ambitions. Personally, with all the attention on One Health Initiative, IMO research experience is going to be in demand in the veterinary field. And thinking about how crude veterinary medicine is compared to human medicine, wouldn't you want to contribute to actively advancing veterinary medicine? Don't give up on your dreams!

Definitely not. PIs are much more likely to hire regular PhDs for their projects because a) the PhD is probably going to be much more schooled in their particular niche of research than a veterinarian, and b) they can pay a "PhD-only" less. The only benefit of getting a DVM/PhD, in my mind, is that you can then teach in academia (which, among other things, is why I am having to get one).

There are research positions specifically for DVM/PhDs outside of academia, yes, but they are few and far between, especially in today's economy. I personally think the DVM and PhD are two completely different animals (no pun intended) in terms of structure, and the idea of trying to combine them is awful. Research does not follow a schedule, the DVM does. Your research can absolutely go to pot and you can spend 8 or so years and wind up with no DVM and no PhD. You can't predict it. I would highly recommend doing one first and then the other; however, that's my opinion.

The whole "veterinarians are needed and wanted in research" has been sold, and sold, and sold, and frankly I don't believe it anymore.

And I wouldn't call veterinary medicine crude at all. We have become exceptionally high tech, and know a ridiculous amount of diseases and diagnoses in so many species. Trust me - with the amount of stuff I am having to study for pathology boards, crude is the last thing I would call our field. It's become amazingly, amazingly complex. Spend some time in a high-end teaching hospital and you'll see what I mean. Really the only area we lag behind in significantly is molecular/genetic characterization of specific neoplasias.

 

[hai1983]

And I wouldn't call veterinary medicine crude at all. We have become exceptionally high tech, and know a ridiculous amount of diseases and diagnoses in so many species. Trust me - with the amount of stuff I am having to study for pathology boards, crude is the last thing I would call our field. It's become amazingly, amazingly complex. Spend some time in a high-end teaching hospital and you'll see what I mean. Really the only area we lag behind in significantly is molecular/genetic characterization of specific neoplasias.

Thank you!!!

 

[FutResearchVet]

My 2 cents:
As someone who is literally less than 2 weeks away from defending a PhD, I can honestly say that if you want to do a PhD you have to be fully committed to it for the love of the research, not for the money. The last 5 years of my life working on a PhD have been incredibly draining, I work anywhere from 50-80 hours a week in the lab and even though you get paid, it's not a lot of money. And it's not only the amount of time, it is emotionally and intellectually draining as well. I am lucky that I was able to finish in 5 years, but I have friends who are in the 6th, 7th, and yes, even 8th year and are not done. You are only done your PhD when you collect enough data defend your hypothesis... and if your experiments don't work, then it can take longer.

When I decided that I wanted to go to veterinary school after a PhD, this decision was not made lightly. The cost of vet school plus another 4 years was a lot to gamble, but for my potential career (laboratory animal medicine) it is worth it. I honestly can't imagine trying to work on both degrees at once because the PhD was time consuming enough and I think it would be frustrating to have to go back and forth between completing vet school coursework and collecting data for your research.