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It certainly sounds like malice in this case. He repeatedly shot her down, then she got payback making a false claim with lots of witnesses to corroborate his side based on what he posted.
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Disciplinary Charge for Sexual Assault
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It certainly sounds like malice in this case. He repeatedly shot her down, then she got payback making a false claim with lots of witnesses to corroborate his side based on what he posted.
The legal term "actual malice" doesn't just mean spite or a desire for revenge as with colloquial use of the term...if that were the standard of a merit-less case, 99% would get tossed.
What is "actual malice" in defamation law? - Rottenstein Law Group LLP
If, after discovery and depositions, he couldn't' show evidence that she knew the claim was false - eg she produced in discovery Facebook messages to friends laughing about how she's duping all of them, or testimony admitting she knew it was false - the case gets dismissed. If she's mean-spirited enough to make a false accusation, do you think she's going to cooperate with civil discovery requests or admit to falsifying?
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Yeah, I don't know all the legal details, but it's worth looking into.
the OP states "The next day I managed to talk to someone who knew the random girl and said that she felt bad, she didn't know what she was thinking and didn't want me to get in any trouble for her actions. So I'm assuming the case is closed, I haven't heard anything from the police since." and then he subsequently gets reported to the school.
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The only way such a claim would have merit would be if she admits under oath or produces something in discovery that admits she knew it was false when she told authorities.
At which point, he can sue her and potentially recover any assets she has...and my experience of cluster b types is that they are prone to insolvency generally.
Except if he gets an IA and that leads to him not being able to matriculate to med school, then there are very real and calculable damages which have been done based on allegations that are unsubstantiated and even refuted by a significant number of witnesses, including police. If this occurs, you can absolutely make the claim for lost wages in the field which would easily reach into the millions. There are already precedents for individuals being unreasonable expelled from professional and nursing schools being paid millions after they sued the institution that expelled them (with amounts ranging from a few hundred thousand to $13 million).
If I were OP and my acceptance was rescinded for this, I'd hire a more reputable lawyer and take the school to war.
I very seriously doubt that there are police actively refuting her statement. They probably said they saw nothing, and police rarely take action on assaults without injuries unless they view them.
I very seriously doubt that being in midst of a criminal/institutional investigation is something you can't rescind an offer for. Moreover, the probability that they could go through his app with a fine-toothed comb and spin something as misrepresentation and rescind for that is very high.
If they do rescined and he sues, the whole thing is on google, and then he has to explain to future employers why he gave up on medicine, and everything about the lawsuit. Translation: no one is going to hire for desireable positions.
His best shot is grace from his institution. His odds are fair with most people but going in with an entitlement attitude in this context wouldn't help.
If that fails, OP gets a job in tech or finance or something else with a future, perhaps reapplying in a few years to medical school after this gets squashed/sealed, because suing would ruin his shot of a private sector job or a shot at admissions a few years later.
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I love the way you think --- we, the good people, have to start making these Ivory Tower slimeballs pay dearly for ruining innocent lives
Deus vult, they wronged him and must be made to pay.
What the heck - I'll go there...
On SDN, there's a pretty strong tradition of questioning, in such circumstances, whether we have heard the whole unbiased story. Consider similar threads regarding for IAs for alleged cheating, or of residents being terminated from programs. The typical course of such threads begin with an "OMG - I didn't do anything wrong!" post followed up by careful prying which reveals "yeah, well there was something that could have been taken the wrong way" and later "Well, it's really kind of a gray area" and "but everybody does it."
Aside from one very carefully worded and diplomatic "Are you sure maybe you didn't get a bit handsy?" post, the OP's account has been taken at 100% face value and he's being urged to "Go to war!" to defend his presumably pristine reputation.
I know the system isn't perfect and that miscarriages of justice do happen - I've seen some. But isn't it much more likely that the accuser had some evidence of some kind? What was it OP? While the pendulum has indeed (for this brief moment) swung to the side of the accuser, the school genuinely does not want to squash the future of one of its more promising grads. Come on! They just admitted him to a 'sister' medical school -- they like(d) this guy.
My point is -- Maybe there's no fire, but there's almost certainly some 'smoke' at least -- What is it?
On SDN, there's a pretty strong tradition of questioning, in such circumstances, whether we have heard the whole unbiased story. Consider similar threads regarding for IAs for alleged cheating, or of residents being terminated from programs. The typical course of such threads begin with an "OMG - I didn't do anything wrong!" post followed up by careful prying which reveals "yeah, well there was something that could have been taken the wrong way" and later "Well, it's really kind of a gray area" and "but everybody does it."
Aside from one very carefully worded and diplomatic "Are you sure maybe you didn't get a bit handsy?" post, the OP's account has been taken at 100% face value and he's being urged to "Go to war!" to defend his presumably pristine reputation.
I know the system isn't perfect and that miscarriages of justice do happen - I've seen some. But isn't it much more likely that the accuser had some evidence of some kind? What was it OP? While the pendulum has indeed (for this brief moment) swung to the side of the accuser, the school genuinely does not want to squash the future of one of its more promising grads. Come on! They just admitted him to a 'sister' medical school -- they like(d) this guy.
My point is -- Maybe there's no fire, but there's almost certainly some 'smoke' at least -- What is it?
Likewise. I've seen and experienced the whims of academia first hand. On the other hand, the number of times people weren't telling the whole story or there was actually something else going on is far higher. All I know is what the OP says. Certainly, if everything is 100% accurate and there is nothing else, then this is wrong (obviously). But, I tend to give schools a little more benefit of the doubt...
If innocent people didn't get wrongfully convicted, organizations like the California Innocence Project wouldn't exist. It happens, and not just once in a million.
I get it--as people either in medicine or interested in going into medicine, we tend to be skeptical and hesitant to take things at face value, which is probably a smart practice. But I don't see the utility in not providing advice based on the assumption that the OP is telling the whole story. Look at the two scenarios:
1. The OP is telling the whole story, and he gets advice based on what actually happened.
2. The OP is leaving something out, and the school actually had sufficient evidence to decide how they did. Some of the advice doesn't apply now, but all the advice for preparing to have his acceptance rescinded and getting ready to enter the private sector still applies. Additionally, if he tries to "take the school to war," and he actually was somewhat responsible, that is just going to backfire on him.
My point is, there's no harm in providing advice based on the information provided. In fact, that's really all you can do if you're going to give advice at all, since there are dozens of alternate scenarios you could construct about what really happened.
Of course grace from the school is his best option, and if he is able to matriculate to med school then there's no reason for a lawsuit even if the school doesn't drop the IA. I was specifically referring to a situation in which his acceptance is rescinded, then he would have a case against his UG institution (not the medical school). My point was only sue if the acceptance is withdrawn, and in that case don't just make threats, go to war.
I'd also ask you which looks worse for career prospects? Having sued your UG for a punishment that undoubtedly prevented an individual from pursuing a career path they dedicated years to achieving or an IA for sexual misconduct that will follow him the rest of his career any time a job asks for his transcripts? Also, do you really think med child are going to look past that IA any time this decade? My school definitely wouldn't, and it's not even a very liberal institution. IMO, the latter looks worse and if he were to sue and get a payout, it would likely be more lucrative than any there career he would have anyway if he actually invested it.
Just food for thought if this ended up costing him that acceptance. Hopefully it doesn't come to that though.
Agree, I'm making statements assuming OP's situation is accurate. This is a weird situation with some things that seem off, but also within the realm if possibilities as well. If the story isn't accurate, seems like OP will get what he deserves. If it is, it's just a crappy situation that helps no one and hurts everyone.
If it went this far then maybe there is domething to the case and OP is leaving stuff out. I had a friend who was assualted at a party and it took years for our school to finally act in the way that OPs school is doing and a lot of evidence and we go to a very liberal school in the PNW. If the school has gone this far at risk of possibly being sued and getting a media attack, it means they have the evidence to do so. They are also willing to risk what they thought would be promising student. We only know what OP chooses to tell us.
Stay away from the woman in question and her friends because any confrontation with them at this point is a form of intimidation and will only make your situation worse. I'm sure whatever advice your lawyer gives is better than what you'll find online. I'm with @DokterMom on this one. False assualt accusations are very rare.
Stay away from the woman in question and her friends because any confrontation with them at this point is a form of intimidation and will only make your situation worse. I'm sure whatever advice your lawyer gives is better than what you'll find online. I'm with @DokterMom on this one. False assualt accusations are very rare.
Literally fake news . OP, I'm in no position to give legal advice, but if I were you I'd hire the highest power attorney money can find if what you've stated is all true.
Since you were there @Terror Billy maybe you can tell us exactly what happened. That's really the only way you could be sure it's fake news, right?
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Finance or tech almost never ask for transcripts. They rarely ask for degree verification. Suing is absolutely a negative, as is having a sexual assault.
What would OP have to gain by posting an inaccurate story when getting advice on what to do? The fact that people are doubting a seemingly very legitimate victim of criminal malice that is well-backed up with witnesses and evidence is just as bad as doubting sexual assault victims, who often times have just a he said/she said position. Moral of the story, guys, stay away from crazy.
Please notice how I bolded "False assualt accusations are very rare." I'm saying that isn't true. The system by which universities prosecute such crimes is inherently flawed, I don't have an answer but I had a friend who had his life ruined by a false claim and it was one in which all parties knew he was innocent (witnesses, friends of the accuser even contradicted the claim), but the university trusted the accuser far too much over him. He has since been vindicated and is suing the crap out of the university.
However, with that being said I can also say I know there girls who were assaulted and never got justice even after reporting it to the university. The system is broken, and if we take OP at his word, I can't say that I haven't seen someone innocent lose everything off a false claim.
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If the woman pushed you down, per the original post, that is battery and could be reported just as the alleged groping was, correct?
False accusations may be rare but they happen. I was very close to both an accused and the accuser in a situation like this. He was found guilty despite no evidence but her word, thrown out of school for at least a year pending all sorts of things, and about 8 months later I personally found written proof that she was lying to save face after cheating on her boyfriend. It was still not enough to clear his name, last I heard.
The point I’m making is that bad things happen to good people all the time for no reason, and that if OP is innocent it is very possible that he will still be treated as guilty despite clear evidence to the contrary. OP, you need to fight this tooth and nail and not give up. If this were a criminal case, you’d be on your way by now. Since there’s no provision to actually prove beyond doubt that you committed a crime, the university can freely choose the popular option to appear strong on this issue. Get your name cleared through whatever legal channels there are, and consider your other legal options if those are not possible.
If you’re telling the truth, you have my sincere sympathy; I’ve seen how hard this road can be. I don’t have anything to add except that I hope this gets sorted and you never have to look back.
The point I’m making is that bad things happen to good people all the time for no reason, and that if OP is innocent it is very possible that he will still be treated as guilty despite clear evidence to the contrary. OP, you need to fight this tooth and nail and not give up. If this were a criminal case, you’d be on your way by now. Since there’s no provision to actually prove beyond doubt that you committed a crime, the university can freely choose the popular option to appear strong on this issue. Get your name cleared through whatever legal channels there are, and consider your other legal options if those are not possible.
If you’re telling the truth, you have my sincere sympathy; I’ve seen how hard this road can be. I don’t have anything to add except that I hope this gets sorted and you never have to look back.
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Just reading through this thread months later after starting my own search for advice in re: being a survivor of sexual violence applying to medical school. This thread immediately raised red flags for me. Post Rolling Stone (vomit), the pendulum has swung from believing survivors to questioning any and all reports of sexual misconduct (see the Cosby cases and what Mrs. Cosby stated....also vomit), and I was upset to see so many people on SDN immediately taking the side of the accused with very little context. If what the OP states is the full and complete story I am so sorry for him and his situation, no one should be beholden to a malicious lie. However, only 2-8% of sexual violence reports are demonstrably false (see "Moving Beyond the Issue to Successfully Investigate and Prosecute Non-Stranger Sexual Assault") . If a sexual misconduct board convened and found responsibility, there are weeks and often months of interviews, statements, and investigation actions performed prior to determining such a finding. Interviewees in his case must have provided testimony that was strong enough to convince a group of deans or other administrators/faculty that OP did something very bad. DokterMom, I am glad you responded because I was losing hope in the SDN community briefly there. Whatever is the actual truth in this case, I hope it is brought to light and justice is found. I wish that for everyone involved. BUT I also wish to build a community more supportive of survivors of sexual violence, a community that responds with initial enthusiastic support when someone reveals their survivor status, not just initial enthusiastic support of those who reveal falsely-accused assailant status.
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School committees don’t operate with the same burden of proof and defendant rights that a court does and that’s a bad thing
I’m 100% on board for believing an alleged survivor to the point of medical care and emotional support. Society should never automatically assume an accusation against a particular person is true though.....innocent until proven guilty is dreadfully important
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My point being we are all a bunch of strangers on the internet, we are neither judge nor jury- yet people are very quick to support this person and quick to admonish lying women for being scummy, yet hesitant to support people reporting survival of sexual violence. I don't know if that is because this forum is frequented by a lot of people who are scared of false accusations, or maybe people who are more able to believe people lie about being raped than believe that acquaintances, friends, family members, and even doctors are capable of perpetrating rape.
On another note, the whole purpose of having Title IX adjudication processes is to ensure that survivors of violence who do not have compelling evidence of rape (presence of seminal fluid, bruising, bleeding, or all of the above does NOT constitute concrete evidence of rape as this can be dismissed by arguing the act was consensual) are physically safe and their rights to education are not impacted. Most Title IX adjudications do not result in expulsions, because that may mean the rights to education of the accused are unjustly violated. Most Title IX adjudications result in sanctions that do not include institutional actions: moving of the accused to a different residence hall if they reside in the same one, adjusting class schedules after the add/drop deadline to ensure there is less overlap in schedules, etc. If the US could educate and inform all police forces in how to collect meaningful evidence, respect survivors and the accused, and ensure safety at schools, these Kangaroo Courts wouldn't be needed and that would be a wonderful day! But until then, there has to be some option to ensure people can continue their educations while lessening fears of further violence.
As I said earlier, I hope that justice is to be had here. Under the assumption that OP is telling the truth, I truly wish them the best possible outcome. If OP is not telling the truth, I feel deeply for the person who was at the receiving end of sexual violence because no one deserves such treatment.
On another note, the whole purpose of having Title IX adjudication processes is to ensure that survivors of violence who do not have compelling evidence of rape (presence of seminal fluid, bruising, bleeding, or all of the above does NOT constitute concrete evidence of rape as this can be dismissed by arguing the act was consensual) are physically safe and their rights to education are not impacted. Most Title IX adjudications do not result in expulsions, because that may mean the rights to education of the accused are unjustly violated. Most Title IX adjudications result in sanctions that do not include institutional actions: moving of the accused to a different residence hall if they reside in the same one, adjusting class schedules after the add/drop deadline to ensure there is less overlap in schedules, etc. If the US could educate and inform all police forces in how to collect meaningful evidence, respect survivors and the accused, and ensure safety at schools, these Kangaroo Courts wouldn't be needed and that would be a wonderful day! But until then, there has to be some option to ensure people can continue their educations while lessening fears of further violence.
As I said earlier, I hope that justice is to be had here. Under the assumption that OP is telling the truth, I truly wish them the best possible outcome. If OP is not telling the truth, I feel deeply for the person who was at the receiving end of sexual violence because no one deserves such treatment.
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But there absolutely are people being expelled on title ix, and sexual assault is a criminal matter that should be handled by police
Agreed. I also think that because of this, schools should not hold trials like that where they decide the fate of the student. If charges are pressed and he is found guilty, then by all means kick him out of school or whatever. But to basically hold a trial without holding itself to the standard of a criminal court is ridiculous.
So what happened with the appeal? Or did I miss that?
I'm afraid I can't agree about the "same burden of proof". For a criminal conviction - sure. But please carefully consider from the perspective of the victim just how that burden of proof would work in a typical real-life example.
For our 'typical' example, let's assume SHE is at a frat party with a co-ed group of friends and has a bit too much to drink. HE is one of her friends in the group she came with, so they are relaxed, friendly and happy at the frat party. They're not all kissy-face, but it's clear to observers HE is not a random stranger. HE walks HER back home - whether HE offers, SHE asks, friends suggest - doesn't really matter. In our example, SHE regards him as a platonic friend - someone she feels will walk her home safely. But again, in this example, HE sees an opportunity to finally nail this girl he's been hot for since the beginning of the year. In this example, they arrive at her door, HE asks for a drink of water, SHE lets him in for a drink of water and HE turns into a human octopus. SHE says "No", protests, moans, cries, maybe even screams - but nobody hears her. SHE's too scared, too drunk, or too stunned and conditioned against physical violence to scratch, claw and fight someone she considered to be a good friend so there are no significant injuries. Maybe HE knows he raped her. Maybe HE thinks he just took advantage. Maybe HE thinks she's too drunk to remember. But SHE remembers and is traumatized. SHE questions her own conduct, maybe blames herself - but decides to file charges.
Now what. HE says is was consensual. SHE knows she didn't think of him that way and didn't want it. Where's the proof?
What if, instead of walking her home SHE passes out and HE rapes her behind a dumpster? There are still no witnesses and it's just HE said SHE said, so the burden of proof...
Except in both of your examples, you’re essentially suggesting that we just take the victims’ word for it that the accused is guilty and punish him without proof. Thank the Lord our criminal courts aren’t supposed to work that way.
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It’s a bad idea to be handing out punishments without proof
Innocent until proven guilty is that important
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I understand exactly where you're coming from, and yes, I know the stats on actual vs false charges, but I also believe in the concept that it's better to let 99 of the guilty go free than 1 innocent be convicted.
No one is being convicted in this example, they're just being denied the opportunity to become a doctor because there is reasonable suspicion that they may have committed sexual assault. There are many other careers they can go into, but this one is, considering the power dynamics between physicians and patients, perhaps closed off for the better.
Yeah, because real criminals are judged by a suspicion, not absolute guilt. College courts should be disbanded and have all cases referred to a real court that doesn't make a mockery of our judicial system. Being denied the opportunity to pursue a medical degree is a punishment, based on an unproven suspicion. What a joke
Stubblesmcgee, did you just touch my bum? You definitely just touched my bum. You'll probably deny that you just touched my bum (especially considering we're on an internet forum and my bum is probably out of your reach)... but keep in mind that a vast majority of sexual misconduct accusations in America are true.
So the jig is up, fella. Time to withdraw that medical school acceptance. No big deal. Lots of other careers out there. It's for the best.
(You probably get my point.)
"because there is reasonable suspicion that they may have committed sexual assault" Y'all need to quit being so hyperbolic; there's still a process. For every friend of a friend you know who was falsely accused, you probably have a dozen friends who were assaulted (often by serial abusers) and will never get justice. Even when they do get justice, they often face backlash from their peers and even faculty for "ruining [the abuser's] career." In a thread that has thus far been mostly dedicated to helping OP on the assumption they're telling the truth, it's not a bad idea to also discuss the biases that are running all throughout this thread.
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What this says to me is that if you are a smart perpetrator/rapist, you don’t deserve punishment. Our laws are not perfect, we in the US do not live in a perfect society and our laws are shaped by interpretation of our society. Our current legal framework allows for many perpetrators who are obviously guilty, and sometimes even found guilty (see Brock Turner) to not suffer any consequences because sexual violence is unbelievably difficult to prove within our legal framework. Many perpetrators state it was consensual, she agreed to a rape role play, ad nauseum and since it is generally impossible to prove otherwise, perpetrators who commit even violent rapes are able to get away with it.
Additionally, Title IX can achieve things the law simply cannot do: criminal courts cannot enforce colleges changing the schedule of the assailant, or moving their dorms. Police and courts cannot expel a student from school, they can imprison them, but they can’t say “hey college, this kid did a bad thing and shouldn’t be your student anymore as punishment.” That is not currently a legal consequence. I highly recommend you all look at a variety of the pros and cons of Title IX based adjudication from a variety of sources.
Reading this thread, I really hope that more doctors than are represented here feel that the moral impetus on physicians and care providers is to care for and be compassionate towards survivors. I hope the many people who read this and later find themselves in the ED during a PERK exam, or on psych with a person suffering with PTS do not default to “well this person is making it up for attention!” because patients deserve better than that.
You're conflating two issues. You can be a perfectly competent and compassionate medical provider and believe your patients' accusations of sexual assault and provide them with appropriate resources, but still believe that the accused shouldn't face punishment in the absence of definitive evidence.
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Nothing about providing medical care requires labeling a third person a rapist and imprisoning/expelling them....that’s not how that works
And yes, it is better for a system to occasionally let some people get away than to wrongly “convict”
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I don’t think it’s possible to be compassionate towards a survivor who was raped AND not believe they were raped. If you don’t think the person who caused the harm should be punished, you don’t believe they were raped. Yup you can provide prophylaxis for STIs but I don’t think you can provide compassion or care by denying the person was deeply wronged or violated. Perhaps the fundamental difference in our argument lies therein: I think one must care about a person to treat them medically, not just address their physical health stats and symptoms.
Then your reading interpretation needs work. Because what you're suggesting is that the innocent get convicted to avoid letting any guilty go free.
I think all of these issues should be handled by the judicial system. If someone is a perpetrator of sexual violence then simply expelling them from their university or barring them from entering the medical profession is nowhere near enough of a stringent punishment. This isn't fair to the victim of the violence or society at large, if a perpetrator of rape is able to walk freely.
I also don't believe that the university should be allowed to run a shadow judicial system where the accused are guilty until proven innocent and the standards for evidence are so much lower than in a criminal court. Deans don't have the resources or experience to run these sort of investigations. The fact that you cannot face your accuser is also bothersome to me. You must have the minimum standards of rights that the accused have under our current criminal and civil judicial system.
I also don't believe that the university should be allowed to run a shadow judicial system where the accused are guilty until proven innocent and the standards for evidence are so much lower than in a criminal court. Deans don't have the resources or experience to run these sort of investigations. The fact that you cannot face your accuser is also bothersome to me. You must have the minimum standards of rights that the accused have under our current criminal and civil judicial system.
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it's going to be hard to hear this but you are wrong and you just aren't far enough along in the process to understand why you are wrong....but that's ok, I have changed my opinion on a few care related topics since starting training and you likely will too
You’re creating a false dichotomy. You don’t have to believe a person with schizophrenia who says government agents planted listening devices in their molars to care about them and treat them compassionately.
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No, I’m saying there should be options for survivors to feel safe in pursuing their education despite the fact that sexual violence is legally almost impossible to prove in the majority of known assailant cases, which are a majority of instances of sexual violence. I don’t think saying “we cannot prove this to the 99.99% requirement of a criminal court of law so there is nothing we can do” is good enough for the 25-30% of students in US colleges who undergo sexual violence. There should be intermediate actions that preserve the right of each party to an education as guaranteeded by the Office of Civil Rights.
I am very glad that you have engaged me in discussion thus far, and I hope that you’ll be open to some of the points I make even though we may have some differences in opinion. And again, as my underlying point has been in these posts, I hope the most just solution comes for OP. And I hope we can all maintain awareness of our personal thoughts, opinions, and biases in order to provide compassionate care to everyone- perpetrators and survivors alike- as we foray into/continue the practice of medicine.
So your solution is what? Anyone who gets accused of sexual assault gets removed from school without proof?
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That's how this forum works. It's all about helping people on the assumption that they're telling the truth. (Have you been to the WAMC subforum? People don't post their official transcripts and score reports. The credentials they list are generally accepted at face value.)
Sure, there's a chance that OP is lying, but so what? Maybe an actual person in a false accusation situation will stumble upon this thread and gain something from it. Why derail this thread with over-the-top, political ideology-fueled skepticism about OP's situation?
@nephromancy I feel like you’re asking us to shift the bias you perceive from accepting the OP’s story with reservation to looking at their story with doubt despite no evidence to contradict the post.
Do you not feel that your view is equally biased, just in a more popular sounding way?
Do you not feel that your view is equally biased, just in a more popular sounding way?
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Well, no. That’s why I said we need to preserve both parties rights via OCR guidelines. Providing changes in class schedules, moving of dorms, requiring sexual violence and consent education for every student, and issuing university based no contact directives does not inhibit either party’s ability to achieve an education but does provide a greater sense of safety than doing nothing.
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so someone can present an accusation without proof beyond a reasonable doubt about a student and the accused gets kicked out of their dorm and their schedule changed? I don't support that......and it's quite clear that schools often go to expulsion
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You’re right. In this forum, we should operate under the assumption that people are telling the whole and complete truth. I am new to SDN and hadn’t thought about it in that way.
However, I stand firm in my statements that we ought to be mindful of how we discuss false rape claims, and how we evaluate reports of sexual violence because a large percentage of patients will be survivors of intimate partner or sexual violence. The way we think about survivors of rape and violence can trickle into how we treat survivors of rape and violence.
