Disciplinary Charge for Sexual Assault

[21Rush12]

You’re right. In this forum, we should operate under the assumption that people are telling the whole and complete truth. I am new to SDN and hadn’t thought about it in that way.

However, I stand firm in my statements that we ought to be mindful of how we discuss false rape claims, and how we evaluate reports of sexual violence because a large percentage of patients will be survivors of intimate partner or sexual violence. The way we think about survivors of rape and violence can trickle into how we treat survivors of rape and violence.

Thank goodness you came along to scold us about a discussion that ended months ago! How far did you have to scroll to find this?

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[933484]

Thank goodness you came along to scold us about a discussion that ended months ago! How far did you have to scroll to find this?

I actually was searching SDN looking for advice and found this thread. I did not intend to scold. I hoped other people reading this thread who may be survivors of intimate partner or sexual violence post didn’t feel discouraged from medicine because this thread seemed to have a slant against believing reports of sexual violence. I truly hope everyone reading this thread learns something that positively impacts their ability to provide care to others, whether it be other applicants facing false accusation or survivors looking for advice.

 

[MonkeyArrow]

because this thread seemed to have a slant against believing reports of sexual violence.

That's a mischaracterization of what's transpired in this thread. The OP presented a story (one/his side of it, at least) and posters responded directly to the question(s) he raised. I don't think we (posters) can have a slant against believing a sexual assault accusation when no one ever presented a claim of sexual assault.

 

[21Rush12]

I actually was searching SDN looking for advice and found this thread. I did not intend to scold. I hoped other people reading this thread who may be survivors of intimate partner or sexual violence post didn’t feel discouraged from medicine because this thread seemed to have a slant against believing reports of sexual violence. I truly hope everyone reading this thread learns something that positively impacts their ability to provide care to others, whether it be other applicants facing false accusation or survivors looking for advice.

Someone brought forth a situation and it was addressed. Look up threads about people falsely accused of academic dishonesty and read the responses. People generally respond with some skepticism (as happened in this thread and is warranted) and proceed to provide their advice under the assumption that the poster is in fact telling the truth. This gives advice to future people in those situations as well as offers genuine insight and perspective to the OP.

In this thread the exact same things happened in a predictable pattern. I feel personally offended that you would take what I wrote to this person, whose presented situation is potentially devastating and career-ending, and feel the need to chime in that those who came to support someone with an unpopular opinion (i.e. choosing to believe that this is a false accusation based on the presented facts) are simply people who don’t believe victims of sexual violence. This is ignorant, oversimplified, and discourages any actual meaningful dialogue from taking place.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Well, no. That’s why I said we need to preserve both parties rights via OCR guidelines. Providing changes in class schedules, moving of dorms, requiring sexual violence and consent education for every student, and issuing university based no contact directives does not inhibit either party’s ability to achieve an education but does provide a greater sense of safety than doing nothing.

First, I'm all for separating parties. But if someone is sexually assaulted and willing to go forward to the university, which will make the other party aware of the accusations, why not just go to the police? A real investigation will take place.

We actually do a sort of separation in the Navy. If someone accuses another of sexual assault, they can be removed from the command until the investigation is over (or permanently). If a student accuses another student of sexual assault, the alleged victim should absolutely be given the option of changing their schedule.

As for sexual violence and consent training, it doesn't really work. The military provides mandatory training every year, but the rate of sexual assault is comparable to the civilian population.

 

[DokterMom]

No, I’m saying there should be options for survivors to feel safe in pursuing their education despite the fact that sexual violence is legally almost impossible to prove in the majority of known assailant cases, which are a majority of instances of sexual violence. I don’t think saying “we cannot prove this to the 99.99% requirement of a criminal court of law so there is nothing we can do” is good enough for the 25-30% of students in US colleges who undergo sexual violence. There should be intermediate actions that preserve the right of each party to an education as guaranteeded by the Office of Civil Rights.

I am very glad that you have engaged me in discussion thus far, and I hope that you’ll be open to some of the points I make even though we may have some differences in opinion. And again, as my underlying point has been in these posts, I hope the most just solution comes for OP. And I hope we can all maintain awareness of our personal thoughts, opinions, and biases in order to provide compassionate care to everyone- perpetrators and survivors alike- as we foray into/continue the practice of medicine.

Beautifully said. That is what I was trying to say and you said it better --

That's how this forum works. It's all about helping people on the assumption that they're telling the truth. (Have you been to the WAMC subforum? People don't post their official transcripts and score reports. The credentials they list are generally accepted at face value.)

Sure, there's a chance that OP is lying, but so what? Maybe an actual person in a false accusation situation will stumble upon this thread and gain something from it. Why derail this thread with over-the-top, political ideology-fueled skepticism about OP's situation?

Sorry, but that's NOT how this forum generally works. How many "OMG I got an academic integrity IA!" threads turn into a "I'm so sorry the mean proctor thought you were cheating" support fest? Zero. How many "OMG I was terminated from my residency position!" threads assume the OP was a competent resident who tried his/her best and did a good job? Again, zero.

A very few people asked what the OP's contribution to the situation was -- what evidence the accuser had. And got nothing back. The school had some reason to judge the OP guilty. We just don't know what it was.

 

[933484]

That's a mischaracterization of what's transpired in this thread. The OP presented a story (one/his side of it, at least) and posters responded directly to the question(s) he raised. I don't think we (posters) can have a slant against believing a sexual assault accusation when no one ever presented a claim of sexual assault.

Well my initial thought was “wow, there sure are a lot of people who believe false accusations are a bigger problem than the actual issue of sexual violence

First, I'm all for separating parties. But if someone is sexually assaulted and willing to go forward to the university, which will make the other party aware of the accusations, why not just go to the police? A real investigation will take place.

We actually do a sort of separation in the Navy. If someone accuses another of sexual assault, they can be removed from the command until the investigation is over (or permanently). If a student accuses another student of sexual assault, the alleged victim should absolutely be given the option of changing their schedule.

As for sexual violence and consent training, it doesn't really work. The military provides mandatory training every year, but the rate of sexual assault is comparable to the civilian population.

Many people actually do both- go to the police and the university. District attorneys will not take a criminal case without physical evidence. This leaves civil pursuit, which is very expensive and time consuming. And, civil cases have the same preponderance of evidence as title IX adjudication guidelines; title IX adjudication can provide the short term support necessary for near term safety. I think people should have both options available so they don’t have to choose between fearing for their safety and an education. Ps- studies have shown that comprehensive consent education leads to better police reporting rates! The studies were in civilian populations though.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Many people actually do both- go to the police and the university. District attorneys will not take a criminal case without physical evidence. This leaves civil pursuit, which is very expensive and time consuming. And, civil cases have the same preponderance of evidence as title IX adjudication guidelines and can provide the short term support necessary for near term safety. I think people should have both options available so they don’t have to choose between fearing for their safety and an education. Ps- studies have shown that comprehensive consent education leads to better police reporting rates! The studies were in civilian populations though.

If an accused person cannot get convicted or even charged on the evidence, and the likelihood of winning a civil suit is low (and that's a preponderance of the evidence--50% likely), then that person should not get kicked out of school and their career destroyed because someone accused them of something of which there is no proof.

And I'm a big fan of increased reporting rates. If more women reported right away, there would be more physical evidence, and more rapists would get prosecuted. But increased reporting is not the same thing as decreased incidence.

 

[LizzyM]

@Wannabe MD can you share with us an update of your situation?

 

[933484]

Someone brought forth a situation and it was addressed. Look up threads about people falsely accused of academic dishonesty and read the responses. People generally respond with some skepticism (as happened in this thread and is warranted) and proceed to provide their advice under the assumption that the poster is in fact telling the truth. This gives advice to future people in those situations as well as offers genuine insight and perspective to the OP.

In this thread the exact same things happened in a predictable pattern. I feel personally offended that you would take what I wrote to this person, whose presented situation is potentially devastating and career-ending, and feel the need to chime in that those who came to support someone with an unpopular opinion (i.e. choosing to believe that this is a false accusation based on the presented facts) are simply people who don’t believe victims of sexual violence. This is ignorant, oversimplified, and discourages any actual meaningful dialogue from taking place.

I really want to highlight a portion of your statement above- the fact that false accusation is devastating and career ending. Yes this is so true.

But being raped or otherwise sexually abused is also devastating, career ending, and can be life ending. By addressing one side of the issue wholeheartedly and enthusiastically and ignoring the flip side for a majority of the thread, I felt this thread had the potential to misrepresent the reality of false rape claims which undoubtedly harms survivors.

Ps, I do believe a lot of meaningful dialogue took place.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If an accused person cannot get convicted or even charged on the evidence, and the likelihood of winning a civil suit is low (and that's a preponderance of the evidence--50% likely), then that person should not get kicked out of school and their career destroyed because someone accused them of something of which there is no proof.

And I'm a big fan of increased reporting rates. If more women reported right away, there would be more physical evidence, and more rapists would get prosecuted. But increased reporting is not the same thing as decreased incidence.

I'm not sure I've heard an as empty statement as that in a while tbh. Aside from the vapid rise in talk about mental healthcare after a school shooting.

 

[21Rush12]

.

But being raped or otherwise sexually abused is also devastating, career ending, and can be life ending.

Did literally anyone say that it wasn’t? It wasn’t the issue at hand in this thread. Both are real problems — this thread addressed the potential repercussions of false accusations.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm not sure I've heard an as empty statement as that in a while tbh. Aside from the vapid rise in talk about mental healthcare after a school shooting.

Maybe address the whole post in context rather than picking one statement out that was meant as a preface for a larger comment.

Or you know, don't. Since that probably doesn't fit your bias.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I really want to highlight a portion of your statement above- the fact that false accusation is devastating and career ending. Yes this is so true.

But being raped or otherwise sexually abused is also devastating, career ending, and can be life ending. By addressing one side of the issue wholeheartedly and enthusiastically and ignoring the flip side for a majority of the thread, I felt this thread had the potential to misrepresent the reality of false rape claims which undoubtedly harms survivors.

Ps, I do believe a lot of meaningful dialogue took place.

You just can't get past your own bias, can you? You just love to throw out straw men and tilt at windmills. I don't think any poster here said that being raped is trivial. I also don't think anyone argued in favor of the op while ignoring how devastating it is for actual sexual assault victims.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Maybe address the whole post in context rather than picking one statement out that was meant as a preface for a larger comment.

Or you know, don't. Since that probably doesn't fit your bias.

Apparently being told you said something stupid hurt your feelings.

 

[933484]

If an accused person cannot get convicted or even charged on the evidence, and the likelihood of winning a civil suit is low (and that's a preponderance of the evidence--50% likely), then that person should not get kicked out of school and their career destroyed because someone accused them of something of which there is no proof.

And I'm a big fan of increased reporting rates. If more women reported right away, there would be more physical evidence, and more rapists would get prosecuted. But increased reporting is not the same thing as decreased incidence.

You’re right, but as you said increasing reporting and having more evidence is a good thing. This means more likely convictions. And more likely convictions means more people will be dissuaded from using sexual violence as a means of power and control

Did literally anyone say that it wasn’t? It wasn’t the issue at hand in this thread. Both are real problems — this thread addressed the potential repercussions of false accusations.

If the argument is “this isn’t the right place to talk about it” then why do the threads about false accusations of academic dishonesty also include discussions on academic dishonesty? Or questions/comments saying the OP was likely to have been/ was academically dishonest?

Did literally anyone say that it wasn’t? It wasn’t the issue at hand in this thread. Both are real problems — this thread addressed the potential repercussions of false accusations.

You just can't get past your own bias, can you? You just love to throw out straw men and tilt at windmills. I don't think any poster here said that being raped is trivial. I also don't think anyone argued in favor of the op while ignoring how devastating it is for actual sexual assault victims.

Highlighting and elevating the role and incidence of false rape accusations trivializes rape.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Apparently being told you said something stupid hurt your feelings.

So then you don't actually have anything of substance to say? Thought not.

Oh, and a rando on the internet who can't think of something intelligent to say doesn't hurt my feelings. But nice try.

 

[LizzyM]

Highlighting and elevating the role and incidence of false rape accusations trivializes rape.

There have been false convictions for murder. Does highlighting them trivialize murder?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You’re right, but as you said increasing reporting and having more evidence is a good thing. This means more likely convictions. And more likely convictions means more people will be dissuaded from using sexual violence as a means of power and control since a lot of perpetrators

Yes, as I said, I am all for anything that leads to more convictions. As someone who is close with more than one victim of sexual assault, I am absolutely for increased convictions, increased reporting, etc. I really would like to find something that works to decrease the incidence of sexual assault.

Unfortunately, I can tell you that despite the threat of life in prison and annual sexual assault prevention training (in the military, rape carries a life sentence) does not decrease the incidence of sexual assault/rape. Despite those things, the incidence is just as high as in the civilian population. That actually makes it worse, since we have regular training and harsher punishment (and a much higher conviction rate).

Highlighting and elevating the role and incidence of false rape accusations trivializes rape.

What? Read @LizzyM's response to that. Are you serious?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So then you don't actually have anything of substance to say? Thought not.

Oh, and a rando on the internet who can't think of something intelligent to say doesn't hurt my feelings. But nice try.

No, I was more hoping that you'd step back and actually think through why someone who just got sexually assaulted and thus is feeling incredibly vulnerable is not a good candidate for neither reasonable testimony or seeking help. Similar to how me calling you stupid made you decide to fight against me, people who are traumatized want nothing more than to escape said trauma, not relive it.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

There have been false convictions for murder. Does highlighting them trivialize murder?

I was going to say that murder isn't a culturally trivialized thing, but that example might not be too applicable either....

Look, I'm going to jam with you here LizzyM. There's a lot of crap in the world. We all want whats best for people. I like to think that I advocate for openness and empowering individuals to feel more safe about coming to with their experiences. And the truth of the matter is that it's probably a more big deal to not trivialize sexual assault testimonies because we inherently live in a society that has historically been more keen to cover up or empower abusers than protect the rights of the abuse. I mean lets not pretend that we didn't have a guy rape someone behind a dumpster get a slap on the hand or that are football players who sodomized an ID man were punished with writing an essay. Or that people don't automatically tend to assume that people deserve it.

Do I think we shouldn't value the OP's experience if it's true? Sure. But the fact that someone called it out as fake and you spent time defending than considering it as fake is kind of the point too.

Anyways, I've said my say stuff. I wish the OP the best of luck. They got shafted if true.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No, I was more hoping that you'd step back and actually think through why someone who just got sexually assaulted and thus is feeling incredibly vulnerable is not a good candidate for neither reasonable testimony or seeking help. Similar to how me calling you stupid made you decide to fight against me, people who are traumatized want nothing more than to escape said trauma, not relive it.

So you picked a single sentence in my post that was literally a preface to a statement that was agreeing with a victim of sexual assault that increased reporting is important, and then chose that to use as an example of not realizing why victims might not want to report? Maybe you should have followed the conversation a little better.

And pointing out your lack of argument and your inability to post anything but personal attacks is not fighting with you, mate. It's just calling you out on what you're doing. If you want to actually discuss the topic, address my points with a logical argument. Until then, you're just making yourself look silly.

Oh, and btw, I have close friends who were raped who reported it and a close friend who was raped who chose not to. They each had their reasons, but because my friend didn't report what happened, the ****er who raped her is still walking around free to do it again (and for all I know, he has). Maybe if we made it easier for victims to report and there wasn't a culture of victim blaming, women wouldn't have that hesitation as much.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So you picked a single sentence in my post that was literally a preface to a statement that was agreeing with a victim of sexual assault that increased reporting is important, and then chose that to use as an example of not realizing why victims might not want to report? Maybe you should have followed the conversation a little better.

And pointing out your lack of argument and your inability to post anything but personal attacks is not fighting with you, mate. It's just calling you out on what you're doing. If you want to actually discuss the topic, address my points with a logical argument. Until then, you're just making yourself look silly.

Oh, and btw, I have close friends who were raped who reported it and a close friend who was raped who chose not to. They each had their reasons, but because my friend didn't report what happened, the ****er who raped her is still walking around free to do it again (and for all I know, he has). Maybe if we made it easier for victims to report and there wasn't a culture of victim blaming, women wouldn't have that hesitation as much.

Go on. I like where you're going.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Go on.

Solid response. Thanks for proving me right. If you want to actually discuss the issue, feel free to quote me again. I'm always up for a real discussion. But I won't hold my breath.

 

[933484]

Yes, as I said, I am all for anything that leads to more convictions. As someone who is close with more than one victim of sexual assault, I am absolutely for increased convictions, increased reporting, etc. I really would like to find something that works to decrease the incidence of sexual assault.

Unfortunately, I can tell you that despite the threat of life in prison and annual sexual assault prevention training (in the military, rape carries a life sentence) does not decrease the incidence of sexual assault/rape. Despite those things, the incidence is just as high as in the civilian population. That actually makes it worse, since we have regular training and harsher punishment (and a much higher conviction rate).



What? Read @LizzyM's response to that. Are you serious?

There have been false convictions for murder. Does highlighting them trivialize murder?

So you picked a single sentence in my post that was literally a preface to a statement that was agreeing with a victim of sexual assault that increased reporting is important, and then chose that to use as an example of not realizing why victims might not want to report? Maybe you should have followed the conversation a little better.

And pointing out your lack of argument and your inability to post anything but personal attacks is not fighting with you, mate. It's just calling you out on what you're doing. If you want to actually discuss the topic, address my points with a logical argument. Until then, you're just making yourself look silly.

Oh, and btw, I have close friends who were raped who reported it and a close friend who was raped who chose not to. They each had their reasons, but because my friend didn't report what happened, the ****er who raped her is still walking around free to do it again (and for all I know, he has). Maybe if we made it easier for victims to report and there wasn't a culture of victim blaming, women wouldn't have that hesitation as much.

I am so sorry that your friends underwent such trauma and pain. I agree it would be great if they felt supported and safe (physically, socially, and economically) enough to report, yet the trauma and pain of reporting and going through that process is a very heavy burden to bear. So as difficult as it is, and however bad we all want to see the person(s) responsible to justice, I hope you are able to respect their decisions to not report. One tenet of supporting survivors is returning their autonomy to them. Feeling a lack of control as to what happens to one's body during rape can be furthered by removing control of how a survivor proceeds.

What I am saying is the culture of making false accusations of sexual violence seem at a higher incidence than they are, and by believing and sympathizing with every person who says they were falsely accused, a disincentive is created for reporting. People will decide to not report because they feel they won't be believed!!! The culture of believing the accused who says "I didn't do it!" over the person who says "Someone wronged me!" is deeply contributing to the issues you personally experienced! That is the culture that first caused me to comment in this thread. Do I think believing someone's account of rape means the accused should automatically be punished? No! But I do believe the knee jerk reaction shouldn't be to think or believe "hmm this person is lying" and this thread did nothing to refute that mindset or culture.

 

[John1513]

Lawyer up. Immediately.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I am so sorry that your friends underwent such trauma and pain. I agree it would be great if they felt supported and safe (physically, socially, and economically) enough to report, yet the trauma and pain of reporting and going through that process is a very heavy burden to bear. So as difficult as it is, and however bad we all want to see the person(s) responsible to justice, I hope you are able to respect their decisions to not report. One tenet of supporting survivors is returning their autonomy to them. Feeling a lack of control as to what happens to one's body during rape can be furthered by removing control of how a survivor proceeds.

The friends I have who reported were in the military. They reported it because they knew that they would be protected and removed from the command. My friend who did not report is a civilian who was afraid of what could happen to her if she accused him. She was drugged and raped, so she easily could have gotten evidence against him. But again, she was afraid. That's unacceptable. It is the victim's decision to report or not. I tried to talk her into reporting because this guy is the kind of guy who would do it again. No, you shouldn't have to relive the trauma, but that fear is part of what keeps this guys out of prison.

I'm not victim blaming, because a lot of things could change that would make it easier for victims to report. It's not just on them.

What I am saying is the culture of making false accusations of sexual violence seem at a higher incidence than they are, and by believing and sympathizing with every person who says they were falsely accused, a disincentive is created for reporting. People will decide to not report because they feel they won't be believed!!! The culture of believing the accused who says "I didn't do it!" over the person who says "Someone wronged me!" is deeply contributing to the issues you personally experienced! That is the culture that first caused me to comment in this thread. Do I think believing someone's account of rape means the accused should automatically be punished? No! But I do believe the knee jerk reaction shouldn't be to think or believe "hmm this person is lying" and this thread did nothing to refute that mindset or culture.

No one is saying we should believe every person who says they are falsely accused. We are talking about responding to a thread on an anonymous forum. When someone posts for advice, we assume they are telling the truth so that we can provide advice for that truth. If they are lying, then they will get whatever is coming to them anyway, and anyone else who reads the thread who may be in that situation can benefit.

When it comes to real life, I think most people are just advocating for innocent until proven guilty. We try not to execute or imprison people in this country without evidence, since "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" is something that goes back to our country's beginnings, which we took from that quote from Blackstone.

 

[21Rush12]

Do I think believing someone's account of rape means the accused should automatically be punished? No! But I do believe the knee jerk reaction shouldn't be to think or believe "hmm this person is lying" and this thread did nothing to refute that mindset or culture.

What you’re actually saying here is that you want the default to be that someone who brings forth a story of a false accusation to be considered “hmm, this person is lying” instead.

This thread isn’t a person who came forward and said they were assaulted and then everyone said “you’re lying”, this thread was someone who came forward to say “I’ve been falsely accused of this and my life may be ruined as a result.” The appropriate response in both cases would be to listen and be supportive and offer advice as appropriate. That’s what happened here. Nobody is advocating for victim blaming or shaming, nobody has asserted that rape is not a serious issue that can and does happen at an alarming rate. You resurrected this thread to parade around with the attitude that anyone who claims there’s a false accusation is an enemy to survivors of sexual assault, and that simply isn’t true. This thread was a person at their most vulnerable in a situation nobody should be in asking for help and advice.

 

[21Rush12]

What you’re actually saying here is that you want the default to be that someone who brings forth a story of a false accusation to be considered “hmm, this person is lying” instead.

This thread isn’t a person who came forward and said they were assaulted and then everyone said “you’re lying”, this thread was someone who came forward to say “I’ve been falsely accused of this and my life may be ruined as a result.” The appropriate response in both cases would be to listen and be supportive and offer advice as appropriate. That’s what happened here. Nobody is advocating for victim blaming or shaming, nobody has asserted that rape is not a serious issue that can and does happen at an alarming rate. You resurrected this thread to parade around with the attitude that anyone who claims there’s a false accusation is an enemy to survivors of sexual assault, and that simply isn’t true. This thread was a person at their most vulnerable in a situation nobody should be in asking for help and advice, and I think your own bias and experiences color your view of the situation in a way that stops you from seeing what’s at hand.

Edit: I don’t know what’s going on with mobile formatting right now — I’ll come back to fix it

 

[LizzyM]

The OP came here afraid and hurting because he feared that his offer of admission to medical school was in jeopardy. We treated the person in front of us and gave the best advice we could for the OP's circumstances. I do believe that we treat every OP in that way with humility, empathy but also with candor.

Was there a reason to believe the OP was lying? I didn't think so.

@nephromancy acts as if false accusations never happen or that claims of sexual assault are never believed. On the other hand, some of us remember the story of Emmett Till, a 14 year old African-American who was lynched in 1955 for what he was accused of having done to a white woman; and that woman later admitted that she had fabricated the story that Till had made verbal or physical advances toward her. Maybe women lied about those things years ago but don't lie about them today?

Given the back stabbing and competition that goes on among some pre-meds, if all it took to get off of a waitlist was to falsely accuse someone of misconduct, I shutter to think of the road we might go down.

 

[Robin-jay]

Under the assumption that OP is telling the truth:

The school is probably trying to save face. Some schools are cracking under the pressure to abide by "guilty before proven innocent". Can't have the media saying a school is sexist by abiding by "innocent until proven guilty", can we?

I personally think that serious cases like this should not go through the university until it has been proven in a court of law. Schools being the judge, jury, and executioner may work for smaller cases like underage drinking, but should default the serious situations of possible felony-worthy IA's to the court of law, and THEN give a punishment.

What happens:

1. University decides if felony-worthy institutional action punishments are justified, by being the judge, jury, and executioner. Evidence is subjective here.

What should happen:

1. University notes possible felony, gets law involved
2. The accuser is either found guilty or innocent in a court of law ("innocent until proven guilty")
3. University then proceeds with punishment (or there lack of) after a real court solves the problem

 

[DokterMom]

The dilemma with "innocent until proven guilty [beyond a reasonable doubt]" for someone accused of sexual misconduct is that presuming the accused to be innocent presumes the accuser to be lying.

 

[Robin-jay]

The dilemma with "innocent until proven guilty [beyond a reasonable doubt]" for someone accused of sexual misconduct is that presuming the accused to be innocent presumes the accuser to be lying..

No, it just means that accuser is "innocent until proven guilty".

You can say that assuming that the accused to be innocent for something like theft also assumes "the accuser to be lying".

We live in country where everyone should have a right to be "innocent until proven guilty".

Every person deserves a fair trial.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

I think one must care about a person to treat them medically, not just address their physical health stats and symptoms.

If this is what you think, then I hope you go into a specialty where you can pick and choose your patients carefully. I’ve treated con men, drug dealers, people who I’ve had a suspicion were murderers, and people I’ve known to be sex offenders. I didn’t treat them; because, they were someone I liked or generally put any great thought into what happened to them once they left my care. I treated them; because, they were my patients, and as such, it was my duty to care for them.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The dilemma with "innocent until proven guilty [beyond a reasonable doubt]" for someone accused of sexual misconduct is that presuming the accused to be innocent presumes the accuser to be lying..

Actually it doesn't. Your logical fallacy is false dichotomy.

 

[Yellowfig]

A lot of people here are making incorrect assumptions.

1.You assume the justice system is fair. This is not true at all. We currently have a record number of rape tests that are not tested. Some of which goes back decades. Why are sexual assaults not treated the same as other crimes? They aren't. There ia not a backlog of genetic evidence for murder cases.

Someone made the hur dur why don't they just go to the police argument. Well have done countless studies on this. A person is less likely to go to the cops depending on the level of stress theh encounter from the event.
ISSN: 1077-8012
Furthermore, there are issues in how the police percieve rape victims

 

[Robin-jay]

A lot of people here are making incorrect assumptions.

No.

1.You assume the justice system is fair. This is not true at all. We currently have a record number of rape tests that are not tested. Some of which goes back decades. Why are sexual assaults not treated the same as other crimes? They aren't. There ia not a backlog of genetic evidence for murder cases.

Not ideally fair, but leagues more fair than the university system. You have a jury in a real court of law, a judge, and the notion you are "innocent until proven guilty". Sadly, universities get to play judge, jury, and executioner. "guilty until proven innocent" is a real barrier here, and that is unjust.

Someone made the hur dur why don't they just go to the police argument. Well have done countless studies on this. A person is less likely to go to the cops depending on the level of stress theh encounter from the event.
ISSN: 1077-8012
Furthermore, there are issues in how the police percieve rape victims

"hur dur" lol. What is this, kindergarten?

Police should treat alleged rape victims with respect, just like everyone else. Also, we should encourage people who have undergone serious assaults to also speak to police. If your argument is that they are more likely to go to the university than to police, than I hope that they can still go the university and then it gets placed under lawful review.

 

[Yellowfig]

No.



Not ideally fair, but leagues more fair than the university system. You have a jury in a real court of law, a judge, and the notion you are "innocent until proven guilty". Sadly, universities get to play judge, jury, and executioner. "guilty until proven innocent" is a real barrier here, and that is unjust.



"hur dur" lol. What is this, kindergarten?

Police should treat alleged rape victims with respect, just like everyone else. Also, we should encourage people who have undergone serious assaults to also speak to police. If your argument is that they are more likely to go to the university than to police, than I hope that they can still go the university and then it gets placed under lawful review.

Why are you pretending like these are separate issues. Extra judicial systems are more likely to exist if the judicial system is broken. As of right now, if you get a rape kit done there is no guarantee it will get tested. If the public can't trust the judicial system to investigate sex crimes in an timely or diligent manner, then it will seek alternative avenues. Until the root problem is fixed, these avenues will always exist and they will grow.

 

[Robin-jay]

Why are you pretending like these are separate issues. Extra judicial systems are more likely to exist if the judicial system is broken.

By implying that university judicial system exists because the court of law is broken is false. Even if it what you're saying is true, the university system is still considered more "broken" for the aforementioned reasons.

As of right now, if you get a rape kit done there is no guarantee it will get tested. If the public can't trust the judicial system to investigate sex crimes in an timely or diligent manner, then it will seek alternative avenues.

I'm not going to do tons of research, but I believe if you ask for a rape kit, I think the system is obligated to do so. Investigation of sex crimes is admittedly difficult, but my overall point is that we need to have the mindset of "innocent until proven guilty", not "guilty until proven innocent".

 

[Yellowfig]

By implying that university judicial system exists because the court of law is broken is false. Even if it what you're saying is true, the university system is still considered more "broken" for the aforementioned reasons.



I'm not going to do tons of research, but I believe if you ask for a rape kit, I think the system is obligated to do so. Investigation of sex crimes is admittedly difficult, but my overall point is that we need to have the mindset of "innocent until proven guilty", not "guilty until proven innocent".

There 400000 untested rape kits in the US, not accounting for the ones that are destroyed after 6 months without testing in some areas.

Also we have evidence of extra judicial tends to arise from failed judicial systems from extra judicial killings occuring in other countries. You can be blue in face about how these killings are immoral and should not occur. But what we see is that this issue is only resolved when the public faith in the justice system is restored.


"Even if it what you're saying is true, the university system is still considered more "broken" for the aforementioned reasons."

The university system is an extra judicial system. It's failure is not the same as a failure ot the justice system. Again you can argue about the morality of this system all you want, but it won't be enough for change. I agree with you on it's morality. But, until we have systematic changes on how evidence for sexual assault cases are used, then this will just get worse.

 

[Robin-jay]

There 400000 untested rape kits in the US, not accounting for the ones that are destroyed after 6 months without testing in some areas.

I'm not sure on the whole rape kit situation. If there needs to be some improvement there, then it should be done.

Also we have evidence of extra judicial tends to arise from failed judicial systems from extra judicial killings occuring in other countries. You can be blue in face about how these killings are immoral and should not occur. But what we see is that this issue is only resolved when the public faith in the justice system is restored.


"Even if it what you're saying is true, the university system is still considered more "broken" for the aforementioned reasons."

The university system is an extra judicial system. It's failure is not the same as a failure ot the justice system. Again you can argue about the morality of this system all you want, but it won't be enough for change. I agree with you on it's morality. But, until we have systematic changes on how evidence for sexual assault cases are used, then this will just get worse.

If you could summarize your argument in one sentence, what would it be?

 

[Yellowfig]

I'm not sure on the whole rape kit situation. If there needs to be some improvement there, then it should be done.



If you could summarize your argument in one sentence, what would it be?

"some improvement." You do know that rape kits are the primary form of evidence in rape trials. If they aren't tested the case is usually thrown out. Now if there are 400000 potential victims who could have had their case dismissed because their rape kits were not tested, then that's not a minor problem.


If you have a faliure of the justice system, until you solve it you are going to have to deal with extra judicial systems.

 

[Robin-jay]

"some improvement." You do know that rape kits are the primary form of evidence in rape trials. If they aren't tested the case is usually thrown out. Now if there are 400000 potential victims who could have had their case dismissed because their rape kits were not tested, then that's not a minor problem.

We should be more outspoken in having victims stand up and get tested.

If you have a faliure of the justice system, until you solve it you are going to have to deal with extra judicial systems.

We can't throw out the central dogma of "innocent until proven guilty". Extra judicial systems shouldn't be doing that either. I understand evidence for sexual assault cases may be harder to obtain overall, but that doesn't mean we can destroy people's lives over hearsay.

It seems to me, that the best option is to educate people on how to get a rape kit test done if they are unfortunate enough to be assaulted. Even if that isn't the best option, I certainly do know the answer is not "guilty until proven innocent".

 

[LizzyM]

If you've ever seen Law & Order, you know that in "The criminal justice system... the police... investigate crime and the district attorneys ... prosecute the offenders. "

On the other hand, universities have rules and regulations (not laws) and they have considerable leeway in enforcing those rules. In some cases, the rules may be more strict than the laws. Some schools completely prohibit alcohol on campus and do not permit students and faculty to consume alcohol even though US law is far more liberal.

Schools are permitted to make decisions about how they enforce their rules. The US Department of Education Office of Civil Rights issued a letter a few years back advising schools on how they should handle claims related to sexual misconduct because that is covered by Title IX which protects people from discrimination based on sex in education programs or activities that receive Federal financial assistance. Because the penalties schools suffer when slapped with a Title IX violation, the manner in which sexual misconduct accusations are handled has changed and many feel that those accused are not afforded a fair hearing of the facts or offered the opportunity to defend themselves. Because a school gets to make the rules and determine how those rules are enforced and the penalties for breaking the school rules (UVA has only one penalty: dismissal from the university), the rules and their enforcement can be very different than the practices of the criminal justice system.

A suspended Yale student was on trial last winter for rape. He was acquitted but the University's case against him continued despite the acquittal. Even if he was not found guilty of rape in a court of law, he can still be found to have broken a school rule regarding student conduct.

 

[Phile98]

Actually it doesn't. Your logical fallacy is false dichotomy.

U tell em Fox. We have to avoid a Crucible situation during this Me Too movement. Fourth wave feminism is good in some ways. This thread is an example of why it's utterly bull**** sometimes...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There 400000 untested rape kits in the US, not accounting for the ones that are destroyed after 6 months without testing in some areas.

Citation please.

 

[LizzyM]

Citation please.

Years-old rape kits are finally being tested. No one can agree on what to do next.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Years-old rape kits are finally being tested. No one can agree on what to do next.

Thanks. I had already read something about that, but the article I read said there was no way to know how many rape kits are backlogged and seemed to indicate that the vast majority of them are in storage, not destroyed.

It's crazy. It's also unfortunate that many of them don't seem to offer any help either, just more heartache for the victims.

 

[breachnaked]

OMG OP....please just give an update

The only thing that even matters at this point

 

[MediCane2006]

The OP came here afraid and hurting because he feared that his offer of admission to medical school was in jeopardy. We treated the person in front of us and gave the best advice we could for the OP's circumstances. I do believe that we treat every OP in that way with humility, empathy but also with candor.

Was there a reason to believe the OP was lying? I didn't think so.

@nephromancy acts as if false accusations never happen or that claims of sexual assault are never believed. On the other hand, some of us remember the story of Emmett Till, a 14 year old African-American who was lynched in 1955 for what he was accused of having done to a white woman; and that woman later admitted that she had fabricated the story that Till had made verbal or physical advances toward her. Maybe women lied about those things years ago but don't lie about them today?

Given the back stabbing and competition that goes on among some pre-meds, if all it took to get off of a waitlist was to falsely accuse someone of misconduct, I shutter to think of the road we might go down.

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