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I think you don't if you believe compound interest is something magic...
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I think you don't if you believe compound interest is something magic...
According to @fancymylotus, certain states require dental residency completion in order to practice.
I guess there is now the Anesthesiology Assistant (AA) degree - 2 years after college as well.
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There are dental residencies too. And if you don't like learning about teeth, dental school will be even more miserable. My best friend is a D3 and I would say without a doubt that her first 2 years of dental school were harder than my first 2 years of med school. Their GPA actually matters, since their boards are pass/fail, plus they have all the labs on top of that.
If you think "3 or more years of training" is draining, I'm not sure why you're going into a profession where you will be learning up until the day you retire.
There is a massive difference between working 70-80 hours a week for 3+ years and keeping up with one's field while working 40-50 hours a week.
lol, i work a 6 day, 60-70 hr week. always amuses me when people are like "zomg youre a dentist so that means that you work like 10a-2p everyday and overcharge everyone for everything, right?!?!?!111111111"
If you really believe a 27 year old PT with 200k student loan and 70k salary is better off financially than 30 year old FM doc with 250k student loan and 180k salary, then there no reason for me to continue arguing with you...
I agree. @fancymylotus can clear this up, but I believe the reason the basic science years are so difficult for dental school is bc you have dental labs ON TOP OF your basic science lecture coursework. That being said depending on the state (if you work in a state that residency is not a requirement), you can practice right after dental school. The ones I know who went to dental school, many of them had an immediate family member who had a dental practice, so that's where they practiced. The NBDE exams being pass/fail is a recent change, I believe. Dental school is a profession in which few people become specialists like OMFS, Periodontics, Orthodontics, etc. and I believe they pay tuition for those 1-2 year residencies. That being said the lifestyle is fantastic, unless you're doing OMFS.
It doesn't just stop with the USMLE Exams either. You'll have in-training exams during residency (which you are then accountable for and will be discussed with your program director at your annual review), specialty certification boards, maintenance of certification every 10 years (which is now becoming "continuous" not just at the 10 year mark). The amount of regulatory oversight and requirements over physicians will only INCREASE if you look at trends. Much different than say the NPs or PAs -- I think NPs don't even require a certification exam and PAs have the PANCE which is pass/fail.
To be fair, @Ismet, it's much different to experience it, by the time you get to the end of M4 and realize you have 3-7 years of training left, while some NP/PA is fully practicing.
Yes, which is FULLY VOLUNTARY on your part in terms of your lifestyle.
Like everyone can get an acceptance to public med school! There are not that many public PT schools...
Pleaaaaaaaase don't put me on your ignore list!🙄
Lol, I don't work this much to keep up my lifestyle, I work this much bc I work for the fam. If I was working as an associate for someone, I would work like a 4 day 30-40 hr week with zero admin responsibilities...very unlike what I actually have to do. I'd estimate that a third of my in office time gets eaten up by paperwork and BS, but that's all part of the running multiple practices thing.
.....
LOL ok. 🙄
I already know about how many years of training I have left, and I have friends who are already PA's and NP's. That's nice for them and all, but I'm perfectly content with where I am and where I'm going.
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You are ridiculously entitled.
We know theres only one entitled brat allowed in allo.....
You have to admit a huge part that plays in that is that even if you thought now that PA/NP would have been a much better route, you can't turn back now. You're effectively locked in. Doesn't mean you're unhappy. There was one study out there that showed from a financial/hours worked standpoint female attendings (who are much more known to cut their hours) were equivalent to PAs (darn I can't find that study, it's somewhere).
It's much harder to actually know the experience of 4 years college + 4 years med school + 3-7 years residency + 1-3 years fellowship and all that it entails before jumping in the pool.
Except you're not annoying.We know theres only one entitled brat allowed in allo.....
True. I think I misunderstood what you were getting at before. I thought you were telling me that I didn't know what I was getting into! 😛
D
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this thread has gotten so weird. lol
anyways, here's a link to an AMA on reddit of a urology resident at ucsd who left after 2 years
http://imgur.com/a/bXuzZ
during my time at med school, i keep on hearing about the SYSTEM, and how the SYSTEM sucks and how we must change the SYSTEM, which is what this fellow seems to want to do and which is also what im interested in doing
the thing about medicine and healthcare in america is that EVERYTHING needs to be reinvisioned from the ground up.
im sorry, but F*CK dr. osler. he's long dead.
let's change everything from undergraduate medical education to graduate medical education, to how hospitals and clinics are run.
lets get rid of for profit insurance companies and bring the autonomy back to doctors (that is if they don't screw up like they did with medicare by overordering bull****)
let's put the focus back on the patient-physician relationship
let's invest in public health and research for chronic health issues like diabetes and obesity
let's ESPECIALLY talk about end of life care--do you know that most medical expenses are spent in the last few months of life? atul gawandes BEING MORTAL explores this beautifully.
a Forbes article asked "Where are all the Steve Jobs in medicine?"
We need more Steve Jobs in healthcare--otherwise things are going to get much much worse.
anyways, here's a link to an AMA on reddit of a urology resident at ucsd who left after 2 years
http://imgur.com/a/bXuzZ
during my time at med school, i keep on hearing about the SYSTEM, and how the SYSTEM sucks and how we must change the SYSTEM, which is what this fellow seems to want to do and which is also what im interested in doing
the thing about medicine and healthcare in america is that EVERYTHING needs to be reinvisioned from the ground up.
im sorry, but F*CK dr. osler. he's long dead.
let's change everything from undergraduate medical education to graduate medical education, to how hospitals and clinics are run.
lets get rid of for profit insurance companies and bring the autonomy back to doctors (that is if they don't screw up like they did with medicare by overordering bull****)
let's put the focus back on the patient-physician relationship
let's invest in public health and research for chronic health issues like diabetes and obesity
let's ESPECIALLY talk about end of life care--do you know that most medical expenses are spent in the last few months of life? atul gawandes BEING MORTAL explores this beautifully.
a Forbes article asked "Where are all the Steve Jobs in medicine?"
We need more Steve Jobs in healthcare--otherwise things are going to get much much worse.
I never called anyone annoying, and nice job marching into a conversation that you werent participating in, just to make stupid comments.
LOL! No, not at all. Just saying someone who decides to pursue being a physician, potentially from high school or during college, it's really very difficult to fully wrap your mind on the level of time investment involved (not to discount the emotional and mental investment, the delayed gratification, possibly putting off of things like getting married, starting families, buying a house, etc.). Whether we wish to admit it or not, there are a LOT of inefficiencies baked in the cake, so to speak in medical education and a lot of it is more based on tradition more than anything else, which is silly now that the govt. has made it clear they will no longer give physicians a monopoly over distributing medical services.
Honey, costs are measured in things besides dollars, and there are fields outside of medicine. You don't just give up the cost of attendance, you also give up any income you might have made outside of medicine.
There is no question that my income will likely surpass that of my friends outside of medicine some day, but I am unlikely to make more total money than they have until well into my 40s. It's not that my friends are super rich, it's that they have almost no living costs and are making 50-80k.
By going into medicine, you give up your income for seven years. At the moderate end of the spectrum (among my friends from high-school and college), that's 50k/year. That's $350,000. In addition, I am going 200,000 dollars further into debt. The interest increases that to around 300-400k, depending on the speed at which I pay it off. So, my friends start at a 750,000 dollar advantage.
What's more (even if we assume they make no more money in seven years than they do now), they can invest that money. Money invested will grow. Overall, the difference in money my friends outside medicine will make is probably still greater than $750,000.
While we're still exploring the idea of opportunity cost, I should point out that most of my friends work 50-55 hours on a "bad week," and the rest of the time is "free." For me, at least, these are probably some of the healthiest years of my life. The point is, the cost isn't just in money, which is substantial. It's also in time.
Fortunately for me, I really enjoy what I'm doing. I can't imagine doing anything else.
However, I think medicine would have been a poor life choice if I didn't.
Yes, he was on SDN.
Would you rather be like 'your friends' financially in 20 years? If you say 'no', then I don't see your point... We are talking about who will likely have a better financial future...
Are my Lumineers done yet? You have an appointment available for Zoom tooth whitening?
Lemme have one of my minions get right on it. Coz you know, I'm too busy buying Choos and saris online to actually do anything else.
🤣
If you want to talk about who has a better financial position at age 50, all other things being equal, then I agree with you that medicine is a fine choice (for now). That's a pretty odd metric to choose your career with, and is probably more dependent on spending habits than salary.
There are also probably other places to look for a similar or better salary if you're willing to work your ass off.
There's also no guarantee that physician salaries will remain high for the next thirty years, although I don't believe all the doom and gloom.
I don't think that most people choose careers based on that.
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Excuse me trolling out of my "home" forum but...
University of Colorado is the only 4 year PT school I know of. There may be a few others, but essentially all PT programs are now 3 years. The vast majority of OT programs are still 2-2.5 year masters, but there are starting to be quite a few 3 year OTD programs popping up. Still not really any 4 year programs though.
There are only a couple of PT schools where tuition and fees for the 3 years is 200k. Tuition and fees for most private schools are in the range of 90-130k. There are very few that are >150k. And most public schools in state is in the range of 45-75k, for most public schools out of state its in the range of 70-100k.
I don't have hard numbers for dental, OT, OD or Pharm but PT schools are split almost exactly 50/50 between public and private.
There are not very many PTs with $200k in loans...it definitely happens (and we've had lots of threads about it) but overall the average is probably somewhere around half that much. Still a lot when you make $70k a year though! But nobody goes into PT for the money I can promise you that, ha.
There are 107.
Maybe not as high a percentage of PT students goes to a public school as med students (I don't know, do >50% of med students to a public school? I assume so...), but it's still a lot.
University of Colorado is the only 4 year PT school I know of. There may be a few others, but essentially all PT programs are now 3 years. The vast majority of OT programs are still 2-2.5 year masters, but there are starting to be quite a few 3 year OTD programs popping up. Still not really any 4 year programs though.
There are only a couple of PT schools where tuition and fees for the 3 years is 200k. Tuition and fees for most private schools are in the range of 90-130k. There are very few that are >150k. And most public schools in state is in the range of 45-75k, for most public schools out of state its in the range of 70-100k.
I don't have hard numbers for dental, OT, OD or Pharm but PT schools are split almost exactly 50/50 between public and private.
There are not very many PTs with $200k in loans...it definitely happens (and we've had lots of threads about it) but overall the average is probably somewhere around half that much. Still a lot when you make $70k a year though! But nobody goes into PT for the money I can promise you that, ha.
There are 107.
Maybe not as high a percentage of PT students goes to a public school as med students (I don't know, do >50% of med students to a public school? I assume so...), but it's still a lot.
I don't want to be involved in this thread, but I can point out that scenario is very flawed. Your friend is not going to invest that 50k he makes, most if not all will be spent to keep up with his/her expenses ,just like the money you borrow in med school for your expenses... Like I said, I don't want get involved in this thread, but that example has so many flaws. To be honest, it is a stupid example.
Well one of the "two most annoying posters in the allo forum" might as well dress well, amirite?
Thank you @knj27, for giving us actual accurate numbers for those in the PT profession.
It was a drastic oversimplification. I agree.
I'm curious: how much money do you think it takes to keep a single 24 yo afloat? It's around 15k for most people I know, in the areas we live. After taxes, that leaves around 20k in savings. Over seven years, it only leaves around 150,000. However, the salaries we're working with for medicine are also pre-tax (a fp does not make 180k after tax and malpractice insurance).
It was meant to illustrate the concept of opportunity cost, which was being ignored.
Edit: are you assuming they buy a house while single?
Also, I can't even blame autocorrect for the gramatical/syntax errors above. I'm too lazy to change though
I did not use tuition. I used COA... Go to the PT forum and ask them how much they will pay in tuition per year... There are about 6 PT schools in my state and only one of them is public... All of them are 3-4 years with 30k+/year tuition.
Its bc the annoyingness of @DermViser (dermie) and I is just too alluring.
I am not assuming that they buy house... They probably will have their own apartment, which most people with that income will have... All being equal, I would rather start making 200k at 29 than making 50k at 23 even with 200k debt... My wife who works in finance says that former 'should' be better off financially in less than 15 years... Ironically, she uses the same term 'purchasing power' that @W19 uses... Now if you are talking all the BS one has to go thru to become a doc, that's a different story...
Pretty much. My argument is more that you give up a lot of years, and end up working a lot of hours.
If you just want to work a job and enjoy life, I question if medicine is the right choice.
If you want to work your ass off and make a lot of money, it can work, but other things might be better.
It does pretty much guarantee a job at a good salary, with reasonably good job security.
It just annoys me when people look at end-salary and ignore everything in-between.
You lost me there! We were talking about everything else being equal...
http://www.arcadia.edu/academic/default.aspx?id=27256
My response to him thinking we're annoying:
and
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Does this also take into account the other expenses you will have?:
Housing (hopefully by this time you will want to live in a house, vs. living in an apt. like you have your entire life)
Car
Getting married -- your wife will not take your oath of frugality as lightly
Children -- and all the expenses from that
401K
Malpractice insurance
Disability insurance
State income tax
Federal income tax
FICA/Payroll taxes
Your student debt that you can finally start making loan payments on.
Etc, etc.
I agree with you a 100% I guess... But if someone says it's better to make 50k at 23 than 200k at 29 from a purely financial standpoint, I am gonna go ahead and call that BS.
That gif cracks me up everytime. What is that from?
Google "diva kid." He did it on live TV.
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