Discrimination against DOs?

[Balantidiumcoli]

So how damaging is said misinformation? Exactly what fate are you crusading to save people from? Even more importantly, why?

Because one only has to look through your posting history to realize that you've basically camped out in Pre-DO to post anytime anything remotely pro-DO comes up.

I'm not saying that there isn't some delusion going on among some pre-DO posters, but you can't honestly say that your sole mission is to "set the facts straight" can you?

I mean, my observation is that these threads pretty much only gain traction when someone like you comes in and fans the flames.

So I'm just sayin, maybe take a step back once in a while and let these threads die without a huge multi-page argument.

I think he's just looking to see if there is an intelligent counter-argument. I'm the same way.

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[MedPR]

So how damaging is said misinformation? Exactly what fate are you crusading to save people from? Even more importantly, why?

Because one only has to look through your posting history to realize that you've basically camped out in Pre-DO to post anytime anything remotely pro-DO comes up.

I'm not saying that there isn't some delusion going on among some pre-DO posters, but you can't honestly say that your sole mission is to "set the facts straight" can you?

I mean, my observation is that these threads pretty much only gain traction when someone like you comes in and fans the flames.

So I'm just sayin, maybe take a step back once in a while and let these threads die without a huge multi-page argument.

I find it very difficult not to address the statements listed below.
"DO is better because holistic..."
"DO is better because OMM..."
"DO is better because the DOs I shadowed were nice and the MDs weren't"
"The merger will make DO == MD in the match"

 

[SLC]

I find it very difficult not to address the statements listed below.
"DO is better because holistic..."
"DO is better because OMM..."
"DO is better because the DOs I shadowed were nice and the MDs weren't"
"The merger will make DO == MD in the match"

Why? Some people hold weird opinions, can't people just leave it at that and let them fade into obscurity?

But let's entertain the need to respond for a minute...

#1 doesn't even mean anything. I don't see why people get worked up about such a vague and utterly empty statement. It's not even worth a reply honestly.

#2 may or may not be true, depending on the individual who makes the statement, and what they intend to do with their career. Some fields (PM&R, Sports Med, Family Med, Pain Fellowships, Neurology) are highly amenable to OMM. I know that doesn't compute for pre-MD, but it's certainly true. Say what you will about the evidence base behind it, the fact is that patients want it. Patients who've experienced it seek it out. And physicians in the correct fields who offer it are in demand. Can it just be left at that?

#3 is a valid reason for some. It might not be for you, but that's not really the point is it? People tend to want to associate themselves with groups with which they feel they can relate.

#4 may very well end up being true, I don't know, and neither do you. Only time will tell and arguing about it incessantly on SDN isn't going to have any effect on the matter whatsoever.

I think at the end of the day Osteoclast was right, some people just don't want to hear that they're #2. I'm not saying MD or DO student are in fact #2, but any comment that might be interpreted that way is usually jumped on. You'd think the insecurity would have stopped by now.

 

[Ost3oclast]

I find it very difficult not to address the statements listed below.
"DO is better because holistic..."
"DO is better because OMM..."
"DO is better because the DOs I shadowed were nice and the MDs weren't"
"The merger will make DO == MD in the match"

Its a never ending battle man. You wont be able to convince a lot of those people into seeing it differently. Thats why the MD vs DO threads go on for as long as they do anyway, because neither "side" will ever be convinced by the other.

 

[SpecterGT260]

So how damaging is said misinformation? Exactly what fate are you crusading to save people from? Even more importantly, why?

Because one only has to look through your posting history to realize that you've basically camped out in Pre-DO to post anytime anything remotely pro-DO comes up.

I'm not saying that there isn't some delusion going on among some pre-DO posters, but you can't honestly say that your sole mission is to "set the facts straight" can you?

I mean, my observation is that these threads pretty much only gain traction when someone like you comes in and fans the flames.

So I'm just sayin, maybe take a step back once in a while and let these threads die without a huge multi-page argument.

Why not?

For life of me I can't wrap my head around the outlook that says threads must die, as if you are strapped down and forced to read ... and then there are are those who pretend it takes great effort to respond on a thread


Call it whatever you want. IMO it is worthwhile to address those things. You don't have to agree just as you don't have to read or participate in these threads.

There are those who get irritated when a thread spirals out of control, but typically if you give it a page or two things come right back on topic and ground is actually gained. People actually learn something, and sometimes that "people" includes myself. It was already stated that 75% of activity in here is MD vs DO. If you took a closer look you'd see I spend more than 25% of the time in here doing this

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[MedPR]

Why? Some people hold weird opinions, can't people just leave it at that and let them fade into obscurity?

And #3 on your list is a valid reason for some. It might not be for you, but that's not really the point is it? People tend to want to associate themselves with groups with which they feel they can relate

Partly because I like to convince people of my opinion, but mainly because I don't want them to choose something based on fiction. I'm glad I came on SDN and learned that DOs have a way harder time specializing. If I hadn't learned that, I wouldn't have even applied MD and I would've ended up at a DO school only to find out about ACGME hate the hard way. I'm grateful that someone called me out on my misconceptions about DO and I'd like to be that person for some other uninformed pre-med(s).

I would like to associate myself with people I can relate to as well, but to assume that an entire profession is comparable to the handful of people you meet within that profession is ludicrous.

Saying DOs are nicer than MDs based on the ones that you've shadowed is like eating at mcdonalds and then deciding that all cheeseburgers are disgusting.

However, let the record show that I love Mcdonalds.

 

[SpecterGT260]

And #3 on your list is a valid reason for some. It might not be for you, but that's not really the point is it? People tend to want to associate themselves with groups with which they feel they can relate

You seriously don't see a problem with making sweeping generalizations about a group of people based on anecdote? Or with people making decisions or acting on those generalizations?


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[Ost3oclast]

Partly because I like to convince people of my opinion, but mainly because I don't want them to choose something based on fiction. I'm glad I came on SDN and learned that DOs have a way harder time specializing. If I hadn't learned that, I wouldn't have even applied MD and I would've ended up at a DO school only to find out about ACGME hate the hard way. I'm grateful that someone called me out on my misconceptions about DO and I'd like to be that person for some other uninformed pre-med(s).

I would like to associate myself with people I can relate to as well, but to assume that an entire profession is comparable to the handful of people you meet within that profession is ludicrous.

I'm just curious Med, if you got rejected MD but accepted DO, would you take the spot? Not trying to argue here just asking.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I think he's just looking to see if there is an intelligent counter-argument. I'm the same way.

I find it very difficult not to address the statements listed below.
"DO is better because holistic..."
"DO is better because OMM..."
"DO is better because the DOs I shadowed were nice and the MDs weren't"
"The merger will make DO == MD in the match"

I appreciate the vote of confidence. It took awhile in pre osteo before I could post without a complete sh**storm following. Not that that doesn't happen from time to time but honestly a number of these threads have actually been beneficial, even if only momentarily.

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[MedPR]

I'm just curious Med, if you got rejected MD but accepted DO, would you take the spot? Not trying to argue here just asking.

Yes, and I would've gone to NSU if Drexel was the only MD school I got accepted to.

 

[SLC]

You seriously don't see a problem with making sweeping generalizations about a group of people based on anecdote? Or with people making decisions or acting on those generalizations?


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People make decisions in a way that makes sense to them, not in a way that makes sense to someone else. This is not a difficult concept.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Partly because I like to convince people of my opinion, but mainly because I don't want them to choose something based on fiction. I'm glad I came on SDN and learned that DOs have a way harder time specializing. If I hadn't learned that, I wouldn't have even applied MD and I would've ended up at a DO school only to find out about ACGME hate the hard way. I'm grateful that someone called me out on my misconceptions about DO and I'd like to be that person for some other uninformed pre-med(s).

I would like to associate myself with people I can relate to as well, but to assume that an entire profession is comparable to the handful of people you meet within that profession is ludicrous.

Saying DOs are nicer than MDs based on the ones that you've shadowed is like eating at mcdonalds and then deciding that all cheeseburgers are disgusting.

However, let the record show that I love Mcdonalds.

@ that first line.

For me, I find it particularly offensive to be characterized by people who are blatantly rationalizing away facts.

I did consider DO school and applied to several. Had I gone there instead I would be 10x worse than I am now really for 1 reason: the people who get bent out of shape in these things do so out of their own insecurities (at least so long as nobody is coming in intentionally trolling). That behavior, if deemed "acceptable" or if supported, condoned, or mimics implies that there actually IS something to be insecure about. That would royally piss me off if it were concerning something that identifies me. That said, it is also fun to debate

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[MedPR]

People make decisions in a way that makes sense to them, not in a way that makes sense to someone else. This is not a difficult concept.

And that's fine as long as what they're making sense of is factual. If someone is never told that MD opens more doors than DO, they're going to rationalize that DOs are docs, and they want to be a doc, so there's no reason not to go to DO school.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Yes, and I would've gone to NSU if Drexel was the only MD school I got accepted to.

Yeah I'm the same way. If my last MD interview ends in acceptance than I will go there. Otherwise its DO for me. At least you educated yourself on downfalls of going that direction. I think a lot of the really disgruntled DO students that we hear in SDN a lot of times are the ones who didnt realize that there are more hoops to jump through. I dont mind all the hoops or PD bias, I just hope that my peers will treat me as an equal when I get out of residency.

 

[MedPR]

Yeah I'm the same way. If my last MD interview ends in acceptance than I will go there. Otherwise its DO for me. At least you educated yourself on downfalls of going that direction. I think a lot of the really disgruntled DO students that we hear in SDN a lot of times are the ones who didnt realize that there are more hoops to jump through. I dont mind all the hoops or PD bias, I just hope that my peers will treat me as an equal when I get out of residency.

Agreed.

 

[SpecterGT260]

And that's fine as long as what they're making sense of is factual. If someone is never told that MD opens more doors than DO, they're going to rationalize that DOs are docs, and they want to be a doc, so there's no reason not to go to DO school.

It doesn't even have to male sense. They just shouldn't recruit it it doesn't

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[SpecterGT260]

People make decisions in a way that makes sense to them, not in a way that makes sense to someone else. This is not a difficult concept.

Read my response to PR. There is a difference between making your own decision for yourself and entering into an open discussion to combat the ideas that do not fit your own misconceptions. That is what happened here. He is free to think whatever he wants. If he comes here to post his ideas they are (rightfully) subject to scrutiny.

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[Ost3oclast]

It doesn't even have to male sense. They just shouldn't recruit it it doesn't

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Have to male sense? What is that some extra ability us guys have? Hahaha jk bro jk

 

[SpecterGT260]

Have to male sense? What is that some extra ability us guys have? Hahaha jk bro jk

Uh.... yes involved with driving and the using of power tools

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[SLC]

And that's fine as long as what they're making sense of is factual.

Why does it matter to you if someone you've never even met in person is making a decision about their educational goals based on what you think is not factual. I mean really, where do you come off thinking they have to fall in line with what you think?

Why can't you just encourage them on, or better yet, just not post?

This is particularly annoying to me.

If someone is never told that MD opens more doors than DO, they're going to rationalize that DOs are docs, and they want to be a doc, so there's no reason not to go to DO school.

Yeah, but people pretend like the gulf of opportunity between MD and DO is so exceedingly wide. It's really not.

I can think of a handful of fields where MD would provide a meaningful advantage to all but the most neurotic of people. RadOnc being the most obvious.

And I have to say, that even as an MD, your chances at RadOnc are essentially nil.

Everything else is either DO friendly, or has AOA residencies.

When >80% of medical school graduates go into fields that are DO friendly, is there a reason not to go DO? I mean a real, solid reason that's not based on what you think you understand about things having never even set foot in a medical school classroom yet?

I just think this "MD opens more doors" is something that's been said so much around here that people have begun to think that going DO means that most doors are closed. That couldn't be further from the truth.

And now I'm upset with myself because I let you guys pull me into the debate when I was just trying to point out how incredibly ignorant even having these debates the way we do really is at the end of the day.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Yeah, but people pretend like the gulf of opportunity between MD and DO is so exceedingly wide. It's really not.

I can think of a handful of fields where MD would provide a meaningful advantage to all but the most neurotic of people. RadOnc being the most obvious.

And I have to say, that even as an MD, your chances at RadOnc are essentially nil.

Everything else is either DO friendly, or has AOA residencies.

When >80% of medical school graduates go into fields that are DO friendly, is there a reason not to go DO? I mean a real, solid reason that's not based on what you think you understand about things having never even set foot in a medical school classroom yet?

I just think this "MD opens more doors" is something that's been said so much around here that people have begun to think that going DO means that most doors are closed. That couldn't be further from the truth.

And now I'm upset with myself because I let you guys pull me into the debate when I was just trying to point out how incredibly ignorant even having these debates the way we do really is at the end of the day.

Hahaha DO vs MD debates are sink holes in terms of time. I catch myself watching them time and time again. I never participate cause I'm afraid everyone will make fun of me for trying to "keep the peace"

 

[SpecterGT260]

.

And now I'm upset with myself because I let you guys pull me into the debate when I was just trying to point out how incredibly ignorant even having these debates the way we do really is at the end of the day.

I was gunna mention a note of irony but it looks like you already found it

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[MedPR]

Why does it matter to you if someone you've never even met in person is making a decision about their educational goals based on what you think is not factual. I mean really, where do you come off thinking they have to fall in line with what you think?

Why can't you just encourage them on, or better yet, just not post?

This is particularly annoying to me.




Yeah, but people pretend like the gulf of opportunity between MD and DO is so exceedingly wide. It's really not.

I can think of a handful of fields where MD would provide a meaningful advantage to all but the most neurotic of people. RadOnc being the most obvious.

And I have to say, that even as an MD, your chances at RadOnc are essentially nil.

Everything else is either DO friendly, or has AOA residencies.

When >80% of medical school graduates go into fields that are DO friendly, is there a reason not to go DO? I mean a real, solid reason that's not based on what you think you understand about things having never even set foot in a medical school classroom yet?

I just think this "MD opens more doors" is something that's been said so much around here that people have begun to think that going DO means that most doors are closed. That couldn't be further from the truth.

And now I'm upset with myself because I let you guys pull me into the debate when I was just trying to point out how incredibly ignorant even having these debates the way we do really is at the end of the day.

First of all, you do realize you are engaging in the very activity that you called out me and sphincter for, right? (edit: nevermind, just read the last sentence of your post).

Second, DOs being disadvantaged in the more desirable residency specialties and residency programs is factual. I've never said that anyone needs to fall in line with what I think. I said that while I would like to convince people of my views, I mainly am concerned that they have the whole picture before making a decision. Why do I care that complete strangers are informed? For the same reason that I care about societal and global health.

The "gulf between DO and MD" exists. That's the key. Its depth or width is of course debatable, but knowing and accepting its existence is, in my opinion, an essential part of making the decision to still choose DO over MD. I like to make informed decisions and I assume I'm in the majority in that regard.

DO certainly doesn't close most doors. In reality the doors it does close, are (as you said) mostly closed to the vast majority of MDs anyway. But for me that's not the point. I'd like to think I'll be some superstar med student that will get a 280 on Step 1, honor all my clerkships, have glowing LORs, and end up in the residency of my choosing. However, I know that's unrealistic. What is realistic, however, is putting myself in a situation where I start out as least disadvantaged as possible. And at this point that's at an MD school.

However, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I would've chosen NSU over Drexel. I think being happy at a school will greatly improve my performance and I would be terribly unhappy at Drexel. I'm just fortunate enough to have been accepted to an MD school that I will enjoy attending if it does end up being my only MD acceptance.

 

[Ost3oclast]

First of all, you do realize you are engaging in the very activity that you called out me and sphincter for, right? (edit: nevermind, just read the last sentence of your post).

Second, DOs being disadvantaged in the more desirable residency specialties and residency programs is factual. I've never said that anyone needs to fall in line with what I think. I said that while I would like to convince people of my views, I mainly am concerned that they have the whole picture before making a decision. Why do I care that complete strangers are informed? For the same reason that I care about societal and global health.

The "gulf between DO and MD" exists. That's the key. Its depth or width is of course debatable, but knowing and accepting its existence is, in my opinion, an essential part of making the decision to still choose DO over MD. I like to make informed decisions and I assume I'm in the majority in that regard.

DO certainly doesn't close most doors. In reality the doors it does close, are (as you said) mostly closed to the vast majority of MDs anyway. But for me that's not the point. I'd like to think I'll be some superstar med student that will get a 280 on Step 1, honor all my clerkships, have glowing LORs, and end up in the residency of my choosing. However, I know that's unrealistic. What is realistic, however, is putting myself in a situation where I start out as least disadvantaged as possible. And at this point that's at an MD school.

Dude if you hit a 280 on step 1 your set. Lol. Even as a DO, you would get into your specialty of choice. It just might not be in the location or program thats #1 on your list, or even #2 or #3 but you should land residency somewhere. I think the bias is probably most visible in DO students who are in the mid-low 200's.