Discrimination against DOs?

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published on the opinion section of an internet site?? that does not mean published....ahhhahaha

im saying there is no need...

Yeppers. If by opinion section you mean the NBME PD survey and match statistics. The first paper is technically tallied opinions, but I would say those opinions matter, wouldn't you? 😉
It is, after all, the OPINIONS of the PDs that determines if they rank you or even interview you :shrug:
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published on the opinion section of an internet site?? that does not mean published....ahhhahaha

im saying there is no need...

bro...

Yeppers. If by opinion section you mean the NBME PD survey and match statistics. The first paper is technically tallied opinions, but I would say those opinions matter, wouldn't you? 😉
It is, after all, the OPINIONS of the PDs that determines if they rank you or even interview you :shrug:
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tumblr_m89u6xbKLx1rsccu2o1_1280.jpg


Not exactly, but I just really wanted to use it.
 
I'm pretty sure its true, to various degrees, for most 4th years. I've not met a MD or DO 4th year who actual cares anymore, unless they are rotating in a field related to their speciality of choice. Maybe it's just our generation.

Yup, thats why third year is the year that matters.
 
Yeppers. If by opinion section you mean the NBME PD survey and match statistics. The first paper is technically tallied opinions, but I would say those opinions matter, wouldn't you? 😉
It is, after all, the OPINIONS of the PDs that determines if they rank you or even interview you :shrug:
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Please post the paper thanks

* match statistics? how on earth does that show bias?there are to many confounding variables to show that match stats is the result of bias...
 
Please post the paper thanks

* match statistics? how on earth does that show bias?there are to many confounding variables to show that match stats is the result of bias...

Lol.

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Please post the paper thanks

* match statistics? how on earth does that show bias?there are to many confounding variables to show that match stats is the result of bias...

and when you are working your butt off trying to convince yourself that it isnt there, that probably seems like a valid point. Listen, I have been through this SO many times (I think even in this thread... which means you didnt read :eyebrow: ).... so before I post the paper and give you a rundown, lets do a little thought experiment:

(fyi, this is talking about bias in the MATCH... if you are trying to plug in other biases, i.e. patient or... whatever... that isnt what we are talking about. Your previous posts are hard to follow as they are a string of loosely related thoughts spaced apart)

So, per the match statistics, more DOs go unmatched each year (70% match rate vs 90+ for MDs) in the ACGME match. Within that, very very few DOs have EVER matched things like ACGME ortho, derm, or plastics. I added it up awhile ago. It is something like single digits per year, and only like 20 over the last 5 years. Proportionally speaking, grossly underrepresented as compared to MDs in terms of the # matching compared to the total size of the pool.

So, either there is a bias in terms of who gets interviewed or ranked, some statistical anomaly is happening in which DOs simply do not want to become orthopedists, dermatologists, or plastic surgeons, or (the most fun answer because of the rage faces that come out because of it) DOs simply cannot score well enough on boards to be competitive except in very rare cases. Those are the only 3 possibilities that explain this. I personally think it is PD bias, but hey, you are welcome to think they are not as bright if that is what you want 👍

This trend is most pronounced in the competitive fields but match rates are STILL lower even in things like IM, FM.... basically everything. The numbers get harder to tease out in things like FM and psych, or PM&R..... So the jury is still out. In all probability, even for the least competitive specialties, considering all programs in said specialty, even with better match rates it is unlikely that they offset the 70% overall in such a way that 'matchability" is equal to an MD of the same stats and CV. Basically this means that, there are more PDs who care less about it in the lower competitive fields, but you need to develop an understanding for how averages work in something like this. It doesnt mean each PD cares less, it means some still care very much, but fewer of them care. Think Russian roulette. If you go from a 6 shooter to a 600 shooter revolver, it isnt like you are 1/100th as dead if you pick the wrong one. Practically this translates into fewer interviews and lower ranking by PDs which may mean they all fill up with MDs before the algorithm seats you, and this part IS based on percent chance.


So, for the paper:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf
This is the survey put out across all specialties asking PDs to rank the factors that they consider when deciding to interview or rank.

If you look on page 3, graduation from US ALLOPATHIC school is listed 7th overall in terms of how many program directors cited it as influencing their decision. This is ranked higher than the deans letter, class rank, honors grades, and ranked equal to clerkship grades. Page 5 shows ALLOPATHIC graduation as being cited even higher than step1 for rankings (post interview).

There isnt a specialty out there that didnt rank this. As I said earlier, it is ranked higher in competitive fields and lower in lower fields, but still sits above many other things that most people cite here as important for nearly every field. Additionally, you need to think about what it means to assess an applicant for a position. Even if it were ranked last, it is still considered just by being ranked. This means you must, at least more of the time, outperform your MD graduate colleague in some way to be ranked above him in the match. The degree to which you must out perform him/her, or the % of programs where having equal performance will hurt you is reflected in that published opinion paper 👍
 
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There is definately discrimination out there. I am not even sure why this is a thread and up for debate. There are programs out there that require DO students to pay "tuition" to rotate at the program and do not require the same of MD students.

There are programs in EM (which is not considered very competitive at this time) that have never taken a DO and just recently started "allowing" them to rotate at their hospital.

Pretending this kind of thing doesn't go on accomplishes nothing and feeds the wrong information to premeds out there.

Don't go into medical school blind.
 
SpecterGT: Honestly I dont know why you bother. Pre-meds on here get more stupid by the day. They choose to ignore facts and dont understand basically probability (math)

Let them find out the hard way
 
There is definately discrimination out there. I am not even sure why this is a thread and up for debate. There are programs out there that require DO students to pay "tuition" to rotate at the program and do not require the same of MD students.

There are programs in EM (which is not considered very competitive at this time) that have never taken a DO and just recently started "allowing" them to rotate at their hospital.

Pretending this kind of thing doesn't go on accomplishes nothing and feeds the wrong information to premeds out there.

Don't go into medical school blind.

This post should be made into a thread and stickied, then making a DO vs MD thread should be banned. Solved all the problems
 
There is definately discrimination out there. I am not even sure why this is a thread and up for debate. There are programs out there that require DO students to pay "tuition" to rotate at the program and do not require the same of MD students.

There are programs in EM (which is not considered very competitive at this time) that have never taken a DO and just recently started "allowing" them to rotate at their hospital.

Pretending this kind of thing doesn't go on accomplishes nothing and feeds the wrong information to premeds out there.

Don't go into medical school blind.

I had completely forgotten about that. While separate from the end-game argument, yes.... that would impact a number of things. To those who are curious, check out the PD survey, prior knowledge of the applicant and audition rotations are also ranked as influencing their decisions. Having to pay for the chance will negatively impact that.

To the last part abso-freaking-lutely. It isnt about dissing DOs or putting pre-DO kids down. It is about being realistic because there just isn't a situation where being misinformed is helpful. And if 1 or 2 people want to stubbornly insist it doesnt happen out of any defense mechanism-driven logic they desire, it still doesn't justify spreading that misinformation to other people who may read this.
 
This post should be made into a thread and stickied, then making a DO vs MD thread should be banned. Solved all the problems

Maybe, but then SDN (particularly pre-osteo) would be a barren wasteland.
 
Yup, id estimate like 75% of the traffic in this sub forum is just due to MD vs DO threads.

Currently there are this many MD vs DO threads (based on either title and/or discussion) on the first page of pre-osteo. It's been a slow week considering there are a handful of relatively old threads still on page 1.

MD vs DO threads (either by title or discussion) on the first page of pre-osteo:
Discrimination against DOs?
Would you have gone to an MD school if you were accepted into one?
Am I relegated to Caribbean status?
Why are acceptance rates for osteopathic schools so low?
DOs who are EP Cardiologists
Why should DO still be 'seperate but equal' from an MD?
 
I dont have time to post/answer all your concerns..but i will do my best.

You saying that their is "published" data highlighting DO bias is untrue, you are teasing away at information using YOUR own bias view of the data

-- dont get me wrong-- i do believe their is bias...but iam against your comments of published...again you seem to lack the insight of various variables effecting your assumptions...

you are picking data from left right and center...and putting them together...

please refrain from saying PUBLISH..this again..(like the initial posted article is OPINION)


So, per the match statistics, more DOs go unmatched each year (70% match rate vs 90+ for MDs) in the ACGME match. Within that, very very few DOs have EVER matched things like ACGME ortho, derm, or plastics. I added it up awhile ago. It is something like single digits per year, and only like 20 over the last 5 years. Proportionally speaking, grossly underrepresented as compared to MDs in terms of the # matching compared to the total size of the pool.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf
look at pg 11, # of DOs matched year over year in ACGME have increased from low of 70% to 75%, unmatched down from 30% to 25%

Again...you also have the DO match system
as MANY good students have chosen to go with high paying high specialty fields in the DO match and opted out of the ACGME match.



not being admitted into plastics, derm ...that does not show bias...there are MANY factors that play into that..."again saying that this is PUBLISH?!!" ...maybe you should submit an article to pubmed and see if they take it

age for example...many DOs are of a higher age bracket vs MDs and are not really interested in an internship that lasts 20000 yrs...
MAJORITY of my class is married and have children...i dont think they are into doing


- THERE is also a drop/stagnant residency positions while MD school affiliated with these residency hospitals increase, obv their goal is to provide spots for their own students

The MD match results have also remained stagnant at 94-95%


So, either there is a bias in terms of who gets interviewed or ranked, some statistical anomaly is happening in which DOs simply do not want to become orthopedists, dermatologists, or plastic surgeons, or (the most fun answer because of the rage faces that come out because of it) DOs simply cannot score well enough on boards to be competitive except in very rare cases. Those are the only 3 possibilities that explain this. I personally think it is PD bias, but hey, you are welcome to think they are not as bright if that is what you want 👍

THAT is the #1 reason...inability to perform well--accepting subpar students--, inability to do the USMLE (and opting for the comlex)



This trend is most pronounced in the competitive fields but match rates are STILL lower even in things like IM, FM.... basically everything. The numbers get harder to tease out in things like FM and psych, or PM&R..... So the jury is still out.


http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf
pg 10 and 11 and 17
year over year increase




In all probability, even for the least competitive specialties, considering all programs in said specialty, even with better match rates it is unlikely that they offset the 70% overall in such a way that 'matchability" is equal to an MD of the same stats and CV. Basically this means that, there are more PDs who care less about it in the lower competitive fields, but you need to develop an understanding for how averages work in something like this. It doesnt mean each PD cares less, it means some still care very much, but fewer of them care. Think Russian roulette. If you go from a 6 shooter to a 600 shooter revolver, it isnt like you are 1/100th as dead if you pick the wrong one. Practically this translates into fewer interviews and lower ranking by PDs which may mean they all fill up with MDs before the algorithm seats you, and this part IS based on percent chance.


So, for the paper:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf
This is the survey put out across all specialties asking PDs to rank the factors that they consider when deciding to interview or rank.

If you look on page 3, graduation from US ALLOPATHIC school is listed 7th overall in terms of how many program directors cited it as influencing their decision. This is ranked higher than the deans letter, class rank, honors grades, and ranked equal to clerkship grades.

This is also ranked LOWER! vs USMLE SCORE #1, LETTERS of rec, statement, grades step 2, etc etc

Page 5 shows ALLOPATHIC graduation as being cited even higher than step1 for rankings (post interview).

-- was ranked equal with USMLE scores and leadership


There isnt a specialty out there that didnt rank this. As I said earlier, it is ranked higher in competitive fields and lower in lower fields, but still sits above many other things that most people cite here as important for nearly every field. Additionally, you need to think about what it means to assess an applicant for a position. Even if it were ranked last, it is still considered just by being ranked. This means you must, at least more of the time, outperform your MD graduate colleague in some way to be ranked above him in the match. The degree to which you must out perform him/her, or the % of programs where having equal performance will hurt you is reflected in that published opinion paper 👍
 
ive noticed that. If I browse from my phone it doesnt tell me the date things were posted. I have accidentally bumped months old threads that were on the first page.
 
there is NO need to ban any of these threads


If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington



--ps i will NOT reply to the comments after this post...as a. i dont care and b i dont have time
 
How about this?

SDN debates mean $hite? This thread especially. Who cares? Go do something productive. Seriously.

But yeah, DO discrimination exists. Again, who cares? Deal with it. Or don't go DO. Easy.
 
there is NO need to ban any of these threads


If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington



--ps i will NOT reply to the comments after this post...as a. i dont care and b i dont have time

:banana:
 
I dont have time to post/answer all your concerns..but i will do my best.

You saying that their is "published" data highlighting DO bias is untrue, you are teasing away at information using YOUR own bias view of the data

-- dont get me wrong-- i do believe their is bias...but iam against your comments of published...again you seem to lack the insight of various variables effecting your assumptions...

you are picking data from left right and center...and putting them together...

please refrain from saying PUBLISH..this again..(like the initial posted article is OPINION)
Ok, so we have established that you refuse to see anything other than your opinion and you don't math too good 👍

Increases in DO match rate means DECREASING bias, not the absence of bias.

That paper IS published. Did you think "published" was reserved only for journals and childrens books? :laugh: And it clearly states that MD/DO is highly considered by PDs. It doesnt have to be the thesis to be a published fact. This is just.... :smack: seriously duder..... srsly

It is simply foolhardy to look at statistical underrepresentation and say "NOPE! Its all those OTHER factors that I have a hard time listing. CANT be bias CANT BE!" 🙄

There are MANY non-trad MD students as well. We have a few over 40 in my class, several in the 30s as well. Do you have the averages or are you just spitting back out the SDN mantra on the subject?

Who gives half a crap if it is ranked lower than step1? Everyone knows step1 is the primary factor. But agian, you demonstrate that you dont understand how any of this works. I spelled it out for you in there but lets try again: given equal step1 scores, the MD is more likely to be ranked than the DO simply for having an MD :shrug:. That thing carries weight. You seem to think that if a DO has a score 1 higher than the MD that suddenly none of the other factors matter. That is silly 👍

The AOA match fills to the brim every year in the competitive specialties. They do not have empty seats like AOA FM does. In fact, AOA primary care spots are only about half filled. Why do you think that their primary care seats go unfilled but their competitive fields fill right up? Again, it is simply foolish to write this off as "other variables".

Also, on the topic of "insight".... that quality you seem to think I lack, if we are talking numbers, variables, whatever... Do you have any idea how simply ridiculous and intellectually insulting it is to make the claim that "all these variables" must account for the difference to a greater degree than a published survey citing allopathic graduation as a significant contributor. Your explanations within my quote are laughably ignorant on the subject. Again.... WTF does an increase in matching have to do with anything? It is that kind of logic that we described earlier when we said some people will bend over backwards to convince themselves of what they want to hear. Each time you attempt to correct one of my statements in there (with the exception of where I said greater to step1, whoops, didnt look close enough, equal 🙄, like that was a hingepoint to my argument or something....) you demonstrate only that you have no idea what these numbers mean or how they come to be.

Whatever man, go forth into that big exciting unbiased world. I heard ACGME PDs actually prefer DOs for FM and IM because they are less likely to miss something due to their training to treat the WHOLE patient :laugh:
 
Maybe, but then SDN (particularly pre-osteo) would be a barren wasteland.

Hahaha yeah you are probably right.

(this isn't directed at anybody here but).......

I don't understand why people feel the need to make an attempt at "justifying" why they went DO. I mean....who cares? I've never had a problem with it...but then again, I have pretty tough skin. I have always wanted to be a doctor, and now, I will be one (whether its the DO school I have been accepted to, or the MD school who is still deciding on my app). DO and MD students should be proud of themselves for GETTING INTO medical school. At the end of the day, thats what it we are both doing, going to medical school. I mean, how many people have the gall to even ATTEMPT the MCAT, let alone apply and get accepted to a U.S med school. At the end of the day, we will all be doctors. We will ALL have the responsibility of taking care of our patients, dodging lawsuits and eating stress everyday. Are pre-DO students REALLY gonna feel inferior for scoring a 27 on their MCAT instead of a 31 and applying to a DO school? It just seems ridiculous and "nit-picky" to me. People are so self-concious that its ridiculous. On the other side of the coin, people will also find ANY reason in the world to try and make themselves feel superior to someone else, its human nature, nobody wants to finish 2nd in a race. Still, DO students dont need to feel like they are finishing 2nd to MD students, even if some do. We are both on the same team, running the same race together.

Shouldn't we be teaming up together on issues that effect the profession of medicine ( the need for more GME, increased midlevel autonomy etc) instead of battling on who is better, or did better in undergrad, or who has more research, or if some random PD in California or New York is gonna piss on your app cause your a lowly DO?

We should all just get over it.👍
 
I dont have time to post/answer all your concerns..but i will do my best.

You saying that their is "published" data highlighting DO bias is untrue, you are teasing away at information using YOUR own bias view of the data

-- dont get me wrong-- i do believe their is bias...but iam against your comments of published...again you seem to lack the insight of various variables effecting your assumptions...

you are picking data from left right and center...and putting them together...

please refrain from saying PUBLISH..this again..(like the initial posted article is OPINION)

This is an example of someone nitpicking based on their own interpretations of words when nothing said was in any way inaccurate. Call out a couple irrelevant technicalities and then claim that the other person is simply too dumb to know what they are saying 👍:laugh:👎

Guys, don't be like this. This is a bad example of how to be.

It is published. Get over it 😎. Go look up the definition of publish in a dictionary (something else that is also published, btw).
 
Hahaha yeah you are probably right.

(this isn't directed at anybody here but).......

I don't understand why people feel the need to make an attempt at "justifying" why they went DO. I mean....who cares? I've never had a problem with it...but then again, I have pretty tough skin. I have always wanted to be a doctor, and now, I will be one (whether its the DO school I have been accepted to, or the MD school who is still deciding on my app). DO and MD students should be proud of themselves for GETTING INTO medical school. At the end of the day, thats what it we are both doing, going to medical school. I mean, how many people have the gall to even ATTEMPT the MCAT, let alone apply and get accepted to a U.S med school. At the end of the day, we will all be doctors. We will ALL have the responsibility of taking care of our patients, dodging lawsuits and eating stress everyday. Are pre-DO students REALLY gonna feel inferior for scoring a 27 on their MCAT instead of a 31 and applying to a DO school? It just seems ridiculous and "nit-picky" to me. People are so self-concious that its ridiculous. On the other side of the coin, people will also find ANY reason in the world to try and make themselves feel superior to someone else, its human nature, nobody wants to finish 2nd in a race. Still, DO students dont need to feel like they are finishing 2nd to MD students, even if some do. We are both on the same team, running the same race together.

Shouldn't we be teaming up together on issues that effect the profession of medicine ( the need for more GME, increased midlevel autonomy etc) instead of battling on who is better, or did better in undergrad, or who has more research, or if some random PD in California or New York is gonna piss on your app cause your a lowly DO?

We should all just get over it.👍

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

End of thread right there fellas!
 
This is an example of someone nitpicking based on their own interpretations of words when nothing said was in any way inaccurate. Call out a couple irrelevant technicalities and then claim that the other person is simply too dumb to know what they are saying 👍:laugh:👎

Guys, don't be like this. This is a bad example of how to be.

It is published. Get over it 😎. Go look up the definition of publish in a dictionary (something else that is also published, btw).

How about you drop it now. Sometimes I think you go looking for these types of arguments.

Some people either can't or won't acknowledge fact. But some people either can't or won't let well enough alone either. It's pathetic either way.
 
How about you drop it now. Sometimes I think you go looking for these types of arguments.

Some people either can't or won't acknowledge fact. But some people either can't or won't let well enough alone either. It's pathetic either way.

🙄
The conversation is very civil and honestly very constructive/productive until someone comes in and starts calling out a bunch of nonsense because what is being said made them upset 👎

There is a difference between looking for a fight and having it constantly find you. Ironically it would have been dropped (assuming he was genuine in his claim that he wont be back) until you decided to play internet mommy. Typically, callouts are confronted. Calling out the guy who reacted to being called out several times by a straw grasping troll isnt exactly the best way to let it die.
 
🙄
The conversation is very civil and honestly very constructive/productive until someone comes in and starts calling out a bunch of nonsense because what is being said made them upset 👎

There is a difference between looking for a fight and having it constantly find you. Ironically it would have been dropped (assuming he was genuine in his claim that he wont be back) until you decided to play internet mommy. Typically, callouts are confronted. Calling out the guy who reacted to being called out several times by a straw grasping troll isnt exactly the best way to let it die.

Dude I didn't even notice that you changed your avatar! WTF is it?
 
Dude I didn't even notice that you changed your avatar! WTF is it?

:laugh::laugh::laugh: You must be relatively young (<23?) if you don't know and immediately fear the SkiFree abominable snowman 😎 Very popular computer game on earlier windows machines. I think Win95 came with it stock
 
:laugh::laugh::laugh: You must be relatively young (<23?) if you don't know and immediately fear the SkiFree abominable snowman 😎 Very popular computer game on earlier windows machines. I think Win95 came with it stock

I'm 24......fail 🙁
 
Well hell I'm only 27 😳 I assumed it was an age gap. My gf didn't know what it was either. You guys never played ski free?

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Negative, I played frogger back in the day if that tells ya how old I am.

Used to play might and magic on my parents old ibm. Loved that game. But, never SkiFree.
 
Well hell I'm only 27 😳 I assumed it was an age gap. My gf didn't know what it was either. You guys never played ski free?

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I don't think so man. I barely remember loading up the good ole "Amazon Trail" when I was a kid hahaha:meanie:
 
published on the opinion section of an internet site?? that does not mean published....ahhhahaha

im saying there is no need...

Hmmm, looks like you are saying both now...There is obvious bias in the basic stats of students who have matched into programs. What more does anyone need? Doesn't mean you cant overcome them, but bias is obviously present.


edit: I hate when I respond to something that I think is the most recent post, because its at the bottom of the page Im on, only to see that after Ive published my comment, the conversation is over. Boo
 
I don't think so man. I barely remember loading up the good ole "Amazon Trail" when I was a kid hahaha:meanie:

Haha amazon trail was later. Good game though.





How about oregon trail?

You have died of dysentery 👍

Now the question is which version. Monochrome was before me. I played the one where all you need is to pick the doctor and buy $200 of bullets and just slaughter the Buffalo in a historically correct fashion to get to Oregon. Newer versions didn't let you hunt whenever you want or pair you against some rival in a race or something. Lame

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Hmmm, looks like you are saying both now...There is obvious bias in the basic stats of students who have matched into programs. What more does anyone need? Doesn't mean you cant overcome them, but bias is obviously prese

edit: I hate when I respond to something that I think is the most recent post, because its at the bottom of the page Im on, only to see that after Ive published my comment, the conversation is over. Boo
What you did there, I see it 👍


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Haha amazon trail was later. Good game though.







You have died of dysentery 👍

Now the question is which version. Monochrome was before me. I played the one where all you need is to pick the doctor and buy $200 of bullets and just slaughter the Buffalo in a historically correct fashion to get to Oregon. Newer versions didn't let you hunt whenever you want or pair you against some rival in a race or something. Lame

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I remember dying of dysentery and thought it was some kind of animal. Of course I was in first grade so I wasn't well versed in disease. 🙁
 
I can remember how cool it was when I learned it was god awful diarrhea 😀

Also when we covered it in med school (can't remember if pharm or micro) you could tell who played it by looking around the class

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I can remember how cool it was when I learned it was god awful diarrhea 😀

Also when we covered it in med school (can't remember if pharm or micro) you could tell who played it by looking around the class

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Right? When I first figured out what it was I had this horrible image of dying on the toilet......hahaha!
 
Depends..... mostly on how much you believe misinformation is damaging to people who read 👍

So how damaging is said misinformation? Exactly what fate are you crusading to save people from? Even more importantly, why?

Because one only has to look through your posting history to realize that you've basically camped out in Pre-DO to post anytime anything remotely pro-DO comes up.

I'm not saying that there isn't some delusion going on among some pre-DO posters, but you can't honestly say that your sole mission is to "set the facts straight" can you?

I mean, my observation is that these threads pretty much only gain traction when someone like you comes in and fans the flames.

So I'm just sayin, maybe take a step back once in a while and let these threads die without a huge multi-page argument.
 
You guys haven't lived

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