Dismissal from Dental School

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MDROCKSTAR

MDROCKSTAR

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I good friend of mine was recently dismissed from dental school. She was a DS3, I think. Some of her clinical faculty members were giving her a really rough time, which ultimately led to her dismissal. She was unsuccessful in her appeals. I’ve known her practically all my life and know she would make an excellent dentist. She wants to transfer to another school—which I heard is really hard to do. Do any of you know any schools that take transfer students? Would she be able to start third year again or would she have to start all over again? She really doesn’t deserve this—I feel so bad for her. Is there any advice I could give her?
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MDROCKSTAR said:
I good friend of mine was recently dismissed from dental school. She was a DS3, I think. Some of her clinical faculty members were giving her a really rough time, which ultimately led to her dismissal. She was unsuccessful in her appeals. I’ve known her practically all my life and know she would make an excellent dentist. She wants to transfer to another school—which I heard is really hard to do. Do any of you know any schools that take transfer students? Would she be able to start third year again or would she have to start all over again? She really doesn’t deserve this—I feel so bad for her. Is there any advice I could give her?
Click to expand...

Most schools will take transfer students... generally in good standings. Without details on why she was dismissed it is impossible to give any better answer. If it was an ethical violation, dismissed with prejudice... there would be little chance. You say her appeals were denied... again we need more information.

With the appeals process that must follow legal channels... well it will be hard to do anything... BUT... additional studies in basic science/research... get a master's degree... volunteer... then reapply... being sure the problem she had was corrected.

When I was full time at a dental school... we had several students in trouble.. near dismissal... I helped them... and they are now educators/leaders.
 
rarm1 said:
Most schools will take transfer students... generally 0in good standings. Without details on why she was dismissed it is impossible to give any better answer. If it was an ethical violation, dismissed with prejudice... there would be little chance. You say her appeals were denied... again we need more information.

With the appeals process that must follow legal channels... well it will be hard to do anything... BUT... additional studies in basic science/research... get a master's degree... volunteer... then reapply... being sure the problem she had was corrected.

When I was full time at a dental school... we had several students in trouble.. near dismissal... I helped them... and they are now educators/leaders.
Click to expand...


It wasn't an ethical violation. She really didn't do anything wrong-- it's just that they don't think she has the skills to become a dentist, which is stupid since they just haven't given her enough clinic time. They just suspend her from clinic and give her bad evaluations. One particular faculty member is so demeaning to her, he made her cry in clinic. She complained, and they told her to get over it. All the faculty is ganging up on her and cover for themselves. They have made many mistakes, so I feel she had strong case against them. This particular school is filled with cold, heartless people. They are ruining her future for ludicrous and malicious reasons.

Are there any schools that actually foster a nurturing learning environment?

What does 'dismissed with prejudice' mean?
 
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MDROCKSTAR said:
It wasn't an ethical violation. She really didn't do anything wrong-- it's just that they don't think she has the skills to become a dentist, which is stupid since they just haven't given her enough clinic time. They just suspend her from clinic and give her bad evaluations. One particular faculty member is so demeaning to her, he made her cry in clinic. She complained, and they told her to get over it. All the faculty is ganging up on her and cover for themselves. They have made many mistakes, so I feel she had strong case against them. This particular school is filled with cold, heartless people. They are ruining her future for ludicrous and malicious reasons.

Are there any schools that actually foster a nurturing learning environment?

What does 'dismissed with prejudice' mean?
Click to expand...

So tell us which school has these cold and heartless faculty members.
 
MDROCKSTAR said:
This particular school is filled with cold, heartless people. They are ruining her future for ludicrous and malicious reasons.

Are there any schools that actually foster a nurturing learning environment?
Click to expand...

Mind if you share what school this is? It would greatly help SDN pre-dents decide on where to spend ~$2-300k in loans.
 
The ACD/ADA recently accredited a dental school in India and another in Mexico. Perhaps she can go outside the country if she is so determined.
 
MDROCKSTAR said:
Are there any schools that actually foster a nurturing learning environment?
Click to expand...

I'm a noob 1st year, but I think our school does a pretty good job.

In the beginning of the year our school had us take a personality test. Studies have shown that dentists tend to have "judging" personalities, which means they form opinions quickly and it's hard to change their mind on a matter. I've definitely noticed that in the school. Faculty are pretty nice here, but it's hard to change their minds about things.
I could see how that would be a recipe for disaster if the faculty weren't expected to treat the students with respect.

Why did they kick her out rather than having her repeat a year? Does that not happen at that school?
 
I think it is a little too easy to simply say she was kicked out for no good reason. I'm the first person to stick up for a student when I understand what is going on, but unless you were in the clinic and saw what she was doing, witnessed first-hand whether or not she actually has the technical skills for dentistry, and personally saw what the faculty were doing in response, all you have to base anything on is her opinion and her say about what happened.

But if you are right and she was inappropriately dismissed, she might have a case for transfer...but she'd have to convince any school that took her that the other school made a mistake.
 
If they don't have anything real on her.....like documented evidence that she did not have the skills to become a dentist, she can probably hire a lawyer. It is not unheard of for faculty members to gang up on a given student like bullies in a schoolyard. She would be able to sue for emotional damages. Then, she can get her confidence back up and go somewhere that dental students don't complain about.....like UOP. That's where I'd send my kids.

MDROCKSTAR said:
It wasn't an ethical violation. She really didn't do anything wrong-- it's just that they don't think she has the skills to become a dentist, which is stupid since they just haven't given her enough clinic time. They just suspend her from clinic and give her bad evaluations. One particular faculty member is so demeaning to her, he made her cry in clinic. She complained, and they told her to get over it. All the faculty is ganging up on her and cover for themselves. They have made many mistakes, so I feel she had strong case against them. This particular school is filled with cold, heartless people. They are ruining her future for ludicrous and malicious reasons.

Are there any schools that actually foster a nurturing learning environment?

What does 'dismissed with prejudice' mean?
Click to expand...
 
When you are dealing with the possibility of 100's of 1000's of dollars in loans then the school walks an extremley fine line in booting a student b/c they can't perform in clinic. If anything, they could have had her remediate the former year or give her more preclinical work. There is definitely room for legal action on her part and most schools would not risk a potential lawsuit and just have the student repeat a year. There are so many things she could potentially bring up that will serve her well in the court of law. I'm curious to see how this will end up.:rolleyes:
 
What I find really odd with her situation is that they tried to get rid of her early in the third year-- thus their intent for dismissal was clear. They gave her a month or two and that was it. All she was asking for was to repeat the third year. Is that too much to ask?

Do they not care that she spent 4yrs of undergrad, 2 yrs of rigorous dental school, and a crapload of loans to get to this point? --The school was so quick to cleanse themselves of her.

U of P has a really good reputation when it comes to fostering a good learning environment. Would it be difficult for her to transfer there? --Also, from what I heard, are they a three year program? I assume curicula would not match up.
 
there is got to be more to the story bud.
 
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MDROCKSTAR said:
What I find really odd with her situation is that they tried to get rid of her early in the third year-- thus their intent for dismissal was clear. They gave her a month or two and that was it. All she was asking for was to repeat the third year. Is that too much to ask?

Do they not care that she spent 4yrs of undergrad, 2 yrs of rigorous dental school, and a crapload of loans to get to this point? --The school was so quick to cleanse themselves of her.

U of P has a really good reputation when it comes to fostering a good learning environment. Would it be difficult for her to transfer there? --Also, from what I heard, are they a three year program? I assume curicula would not match up.
Click to expand...

The more and more you talk about the more and more shady this seems. How could they graduate her from her second year, proving to them she has enough pre-clinical skill to move on to clinic, and then ditch her early in third year without chance of remediation?

As far as transferring, it might be worth a shot, but according to our website transfers are very rare because of the program incompatibility.
 
Daurang said:
The ACD/ADA recently accredited a dental school in India and another in Mexico. Perhaps she can go outside the country if she is so determined.
Click to expand...

Are you sure? or was it just California... I have not seen anything from CODA...
 
MDROCKSTAR said:
What I find really odd with her situation is that they tried to get rid of her early in the third year-- thus their intent for dismissal was clear. They gave her a month or two and that was it. All she was asking for was to repeat the third year. Is that too much to ask?

Do they not care that she spent 4yrs of undergrad, 2 yrs of rigorous dental school, and a crapload of loans to get to this point? --The school was so quick to cleanse themselves of her.

U of P has a really good reputation when it comes to fostering a good learning environment. Would it be difficult for her to transfer there? --Also, from what I heard, are they a three year program? I assume curicula would not match up.
Click to expand...

With appeals, you can have legal process and lawyers... We don't have all the facts... If pts are in danger it is the duty of all hospitals, medical and dental schools, etc... to protect the patient.

Generally before dismissal they try remediation... Did They?

We don't have the entire story... did she tell you everything? and creating?
I have been on these review committees and guidelines are strictly followed. But errors do happen, even if lawyers are involved
 
rarm1 said:
Are you sure? or was it just California... I have not seen anything from CODA...
Click to expand...

I didn't pay attention to the article but it may have been just California.
 
MDROCKSTAR said:
I good friend of mine was recently dismissed from dental school. She was a DS3, I think. Some of her clinical faculty members were giving her a really rough time, which ultimately led to her dismissal. She was unsuccessful in her appeals. I’ve known her practically all my life and know she would make an excellent dentist. She wants to transfer to another school—which I heard is really hard to do. Do any of you know any schools that take transfer students? Would she be able to start third year again or would she have to start all over again? She really doesn’t deserve this—I feel so bad for her. Is there any advice I could give her?
Click to expand...

I am going to take a wild guess. Is this student from Howard?

The word "appeal" sounds just as stinky as ever. If not, please educate the masses of which dental school ruined yet another student's life.
 
MaxAnn said:
I am going to take a wild guess. Is this student from Howard?

The word "appeal" sounds just as stinky as ever. If not, please educate the masses of which dental school ruined yet another student's life.
Click to expand...

No, the school is not Howard. I cannot give the name of the school at this point in time. I am sorry.
 
MDROCKSTAR said:
No, the school is not Howard. I cannot give the name of the school at this point in time. I am sorry.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't divulge any information that could somehow identify your friend until she's exhausted all her appeals/options. It's too easy for members of the administration there to discover comments made about them regarding the situation and deliver a biased judgment in her case.
 
disregard.
 
Oh, so it was Michigan. Well good luck to her and congrats on the 1.7 mil verdict. Hopefully there was enough money left over after expenses and legal fees for her to pay off her loans and pursue her new career.
 
HupHolland said:
No, the girl dismissed from Michigan was dismissed in 2005. The OP's friend was likely dismissed much later than that based on the thread date.

Hup
Click to expand...

You could be right.

I will say however that these two stories are both about females with extremely similar stories. The odds of a thing like this happening twice within a few years of each other seems very slim.

The other case involved the student being kicked out in 2005, and the associated press reports just came out this month reporting the completion of the case and award of 1.7 mil.

Don't you think it is possible that within those three years this thread was created about that very incident?
 
Hysteria24 said:
You could be right.

I will say however that these two stories are both about females with extremely similar stories. The odds of a thing like this happening twice within a few years of each other seems very slim.

The other case involved the student being kicked out in 2005, and the associated press reports just came out this month reporting the completion of the case and award of 1.7 mil.

Don't you think it is possible that within those three years this thread was created about that very incident?
Click to expand...

I guess anything is possible.

Just saying that a student being kicked out in 2005, and an anonymous post in late 2007 stating that "a good friend of mine was recently dismissed" don't seem to be the same case, that's all.

Anyways- it's not important.

Hup
 
I'm currently a predent applying this year, and I pray that whatever school this is, is not one of the schools that I've been accepted to so far.....This is unfortunate to hear about your friend and I do feel like something is missing hear; however, if this exactly like youy say, then I know the man upstairs will work this one out.
 
KOM said:
So tell us which school has these cold and heartless faculty members.
Click to expand...


NJDS... new jersey dental

i saw the articles online.. lost the links but u can find them if u want..

about alissa zwick.. i totally agree with her. i did my own research. she had good grades, but that's a minor point. if she got roughed up by these faculty for no reason, screw them.. they deserve to pay the price.



New cheating scheme rocks dental school

UMDNJ plans to discipline eight linked to exam-copying scandal
Friday, February 16, 2007 BY TED SHERMAN AND JOSH MARGOLIN
Star-Ledger Staff
A new cheating scandal has hit the state's dental school, this time involving an elaborate scheme by students to secretly memorize test questions and distribute the answers.
At least four students at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey are facing dismissal and four others could be suspended for the remainder of the year or receive letters of reprimand, a school official said.
It is the second major cheating incident at UMDNJ's New Jersey Dental School in less than a year. Nearly a quarter of last year's graduating class was forced to perform up to a year of community service, and one student was denied a diploma, after the students were caught trading credits for clinical procedures they never performed.
Cecile A. Feldman, dean of the dental school in Newark, expressed anger at the new scheme. "It's clearly not something we accept at this university," she said. "This is not what we do as professionals."
The scandal involved the distribution of exam questions to students likely to take the exams the following year.
As many schools do, New Jersey Dental School releases old exams each year to provide students with an idea of the kinds of questions they will face. Those tests are typically distributed to incoming students as study aids. In fact, some schools create a formal archive of old exams for students to study.
However, a number of students at the dental school took the tradition to another level -- gaining copies of exams that were still being used and never intended for release.
According to Feldman, the students came up with a clandestine operation to cull questions from the exams. She said they instructed other members of the class to memorize specified questions and set up e-mail accounts under false names so that nothing could be traced back to them. The questions would be e-mailed to other students for posting on a Web site, and the composite exams would be handed over as a gift to the next year's class.
 
So it's a cheating scandal. Fair enough.
 
MDROCKSTAR said:
What I find really odd with her situation is that they tried to get rid of her early in the third year-- thus their intent for dismissal was clear. They gave her a month or two and that was it. All she was asking for was to repeat the third year. Is that too much to ask?

Do they not care that she spent 4yrs of undergrad, 2 yrs of rigorous dental school, and a crapload of loans to get to this point? --The school was so quick to cleanse themselves of her.

U of P has a really good reputation when it comes to fostering a good learning environment. Would it be difficult for her to transfer there? --Also, from what I heard, are they a three year program? I assume curicula would not match up.
Click to expand...



TO ME AN ETHICAL VIOLATION MEANS THAT SHE GOT CAUGHT CHEATING.

If she cheated then all the lawyers in the land wont be able to help her.

Either you are typing this up for shock value or your not telling us the whole story.

she probably cheated.
 
verticalbite said:
TO ME AN ETHICAL VIOLATION MEANS THAT SHE GOT CAUGHT CHEATING.

If she cheated then all the lawyers in the land wont be able to help her.

Either you are typing this up for shock value or your not telling us the whole story.

she probably cheated.
Click to expand...

I know exactly who u r referring to... the student sued Michigan dental and won. I dont think the payment was high enough because they probably tortured that poor little soul. I've read the Lexis article which goes into the details and Michigan dental has some serious problems. It's a terrible thing that she lost her Liberty rights-- that is the right to pursue the occupation of her choice. She wanted to me a dentist. Now she cannot be. At least she getting "some" compensation for this... I wonder how much a dentist makes in a lifetime..

graduate age 26 ish.. retire age 60 ish.. 35 years of career.
35 years * $150K/year (average salary for gen dentist) = $5250K, which is 5.25 million dollars.

She didn't even get 2 million... not cool. School should be held 100% accountable for her lifetime salary career lost. No question about it.

Michigan is appealing this but they will not win on the appeal because they have nothing to go on.

----- also.. on a previous post i saw:
Would you like to see a list of some other injustices these four words have been used to justify throughout history?

Since you brought up the subject of professional competence, though, try this: if Michigan can't handle a simple academic appeal properly, maybe they shouldn't be deciding who gets to enter our profession. How does your argument feel on the other foot?
__________________
Bill Johnson, DDS

Which raises a good point... Michigan sits on its high horse but certainly doesn't deserve to.
 
Last edited:
One of the schools I interviewed at mentioned how some school(s) had a few problems with cheating in the past. I can't believe this :eek:
Hummm, these students>>> how were they going to do quality dentistry once they had real patients if they didn't learn the material? Poor patients :eek:
 
AlwaysImproving said:
One of the schools I interviewed at mentioned how some school(s) had a few problems with cheating in the past. I can't believe this :eek:
Hummm, these students>>> how were they going to do quality dentistry once they had real patients if they didn't learn the material? Poor patients :eek:
Click to expand...

Guys please lets not spread rumors. She wasn't accused of cheating. The story can be found here:

http://www.michigandaily.com/content/2008-12-03/former-dental-student-awarded-17-million-lawsuit

i dunno the real story, but to be kicked out at 3rd year.. ugh, i cant even imagine it.
 
Daurang said:
The ACD/ADA recently accredited a dental school in India and another in Mexico. Perhaps she can go outside the country if she is so determined.
Click to expand...


which dental in india??? i know la salle in mexico allows u to practice in CA.. which is the indian one? as per my knowledge, la salle is the only college outside the US that is accredited by the ADA....
 
Does this mean People should avoid Michigan?

That doesnt seem very nice
 
DrNush said:
which dental in india??? i know la salle in mexico allows u to practice in CA.. which is the indian one? as per my knowledge, la salle is the only college outside the US that is accredited by the ADA....
Click to expand...
It is not accredited by ADA,it is only accredited by California State Board.
 
xsmail321 said:
I know exactly who u r referring to... the student sued Michigan dental and won. I dont think the payment was high enough because they probably tortured that poor little soul. I've read the Lexis article which goes into the details and Michigan dental has some serious problems. It's a terrible thing that she lost her Liberty rights-- that is the right to pursue the occupation of her choice. She wanted to me a dentist. Now she cannot be. At least she getting "some" compensation for this... I wonder how much a dentist makes in a lifetime..

graduate age 26 ish.. retire age 60 ish.. 35 years of career.
35 years * $150K/year (average salary for gen dentist) = $5250K, which is 5.25 million dollars.

She didn't even get 2 million... not cool. School should be held 100% accountable for her lifetime salary career lost. No question about it.

Michigan is appealing this but they will not win on the appeal because they have nothing to go on.

----- also.. on a previous post i saw:
Would you like to see a list of some other injustices these four words have been used to justify throughout history?

Since you brought up the subject of professional competence, though, try this: if Michigan can't handle a simple academic appeal properly, maybe they shouldn't be deciding who gets to enter our profession. How does your argument feel on the other foot?
__________________
Bill Johnson, DDS

Which raises a good point... Michigan sits on its high horse but certainly doesn't deserve to.
Click to expand...

yeah but she hasn't worked a single day as a dentist.

Oh you sucked at school? here ya go, have some free money.
 
xsmail321 said:
It's a terrible thing that she lost her Liberty rights-- that is the right to pursue the occupation of her choice.
Click to expand...
You know what would have been far, far worse? Knowingly allowing someone who is unfit for the profession to become a dentist anyway, and placing countless patients at risk of harm as a result.
 
lotexigeus said:
yeah but she hasn't worked a single day as a dentist.

Oh you sucked at school? here ya go, have some free money.
Click to expand...


not going to lie

I lol'd


aphistis said:
You know what would have been far, far worse? Knowingly allowing someone who is unfit for the profession to become a dentist anyway, and placing countless patients at risk of harm as a result.
Click to expand...


x2
 
xsmail321 said:
NJDS... new jersey dental

i saw the articles online.. lost the links but u can find them if u want..

about alissa zwick.. i totally agree with her. i did my own research. she had good grades, but that's a minor point. if she got roughed up by these faculty for no reason, screw them.. they deserve to pay the price.



New cheating scheme rocks dental school

UMDNJ plans to discipline eight linked to exam-copying scandal
Friday, February 16, 2007 BY TED SHERMAN AND JOSH MARGOLIN
Star-Ledger Staff
A new cheating scandal has hit the state's dental school, this time involving an elaborate scheme by students to secretly memorize test questions and distribute the answers.
At least four students at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey are facing dismissal and four others could be suspended for the remainder of the year or receive letters of reprimand, a school official said.
It is the second major cheating incident at UMDNJ's New Jersey Dental School in less than a year. Nearly a quarter of last year's graduating class was forced to perform up to a year of community service, and one student was denied a diploma, after the students were caught trading credits for clinical procedures they never performed.
Cecile A. Feldman, dean of the dental school in Newark, expressed anger at the new scheme. "It's clearly not something we accept at this university," she said. "This is not what we do as professionals."
The scandal involved the distribution of exam questions to students likely to take the exams the following year.
As many schools do, New Jersey Dental School releases old exams each year to provide students with an idea of the kinds of questions they will face. Those tests are typically distributed to incoming students as study aids. In fact, some schools create a formal archive of old exams for students to study.
However, a number of students at the dental school took the tradition to another level -- gaining copies of exams that were still being used and never intended for release.
According to Feldman, the students came up with a clandestine operation to cull questions from the exams. She said they instructed other members of the class to memorize specified questions and set up e-mail accounts under false names so that nothing could be traced back to them. The questions would be e-mailed to other students for posting on a Web site, and the composite exams would be handed over as a gift to the next year's class.
Click to expand...


Hmmm...interesting...isn't UMDNJ charged with medicaid fraud just a few years ago. I find this very ironic....
 
It's a terrible thing that she lost her Liberty rights-- that is the right to pursue the occupation of her choice.



Treating patients is not a right, but a PRIVILEGE given to dentists by the patients. Patients place their health and trust in the hands of the dentist. It is the duty of the dental community to assure that this trust is not violated. The ethical principles of non-malficence and beneficence are spelled out quite clearly on the ADA's website.
 
ortho1234 said:
It's a terrible thing that she lost her Liberty rights-- that is the right to pursue the occupation of her choice.



Treating patients is not a right, but a PRIVILEGE given to dentists by the patients. Patients place their health and trust in the hands of the dentist. It is the duty of the dental community to assure that this trust is not violated. The ethical principles of non-malficence and beneficence are spelled out quite clearly on the ADA's website.
Click to expand...

I was about to say, both your statements contradict each other, until I realized you were quoting someone else at first.
 
ortho1234 said:
It's a terrible thing that she lost her Liberty rights-- that is the right to pursue the occupation of her choice.



Treating patients is not a right, but a PRIVILEGE given to dentists by the patients. Patients place their health and trust in the hands of the dentist. It is the duty of the dental community to assure that this trust is not violated. The ethical principles of non-malficence and beneficence are spelled out quite clearly on the ADA's website.
Click to expand...

It is indeed terrible. But then again, ill give up the occupation of my choice for 1.7 million dollars in a heartbeat. Thats just me
 
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