DNP (doctor of nursing practice) vs. DO/MD

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Actually I'm just a normal guy who knows how to study. I've completed 2 graduate degrees and now doing post-masters distance program. As a former assistant professor, I know a little bit about learning and for me, brick and mortar education for most subjects is so terribly wasteful of one's time and effort. Let's say it takes me an hour to actually get into the classroom and an hour back home. With distance education I have an extra 2 hrs a day to study, fuel saving for my car, no having to listen to gunner's or stupid students waste my time asking questions they would have known if they had read the lesson. Instead of furiously writing notes while the professor is talking, I can in some cases watch the lecture over and over. On and on....
I don't think you read the post you quoted. He/she was talking about you mentioning learning hands-on skills via distance education. I highly doubt that there's any literature that says you can learn surgery (for an extreme example) adequately by watching videos. The poster didn't seem to be saying anything about didactics and distance learning.

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So you just ignore the body of support that distance education has amassed?

The vast majority appears to be "home cooking"....by other online institutions. Much of the research is being pulled from other disciplines, which is hardly an apples to apples comparison for anything to do with healthcare.
 
The idea of this thread is useless.

A Nurse Practitioner is a mid-level practitioner and a Doctor is a Doctor.

The curriculum of the DNP program is a joke and doesn't compare to being a doctor at all. Most programs are online and part-time and at most, a lobbying effort from the Nursing Association.



NP's practice NURSING. Doctor's practice Medicine.

While still a midlevel clinician, the better comparison is PA vs. Doctor. Because while a PA is also a dependent practitioner, he atleast practices medicine, which isn't true for NP's.

All in all, I think NP's are great. They have a place in healthcare for sure, but I'm sick of them trying to pose as doctors, and try to push for independent practice when they aren't trained for either. I just wish they stayed as they are supposed to be, which is a mid-level care provider and that I will have to admit, they do great!

And for the people who claimed that "NP's are better then PA's," I urge you to look at the curriculums and decide for yourself. I was under the same misconception as most people until my friend applied to PA schools and I was helping him look into curriculums and WOW, PA's are MUCH more trained then NP's, although none are Doctors.
 
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Honestly, the only reason that NPs/DNPs can practice independently in some states while PAs (who can be argued receive far superior training than NPs/DNPs do) is because of their powerful nursing lobby.
 
I don't think you read the post you quoted. He/she was talking about you mentioning learning hands-on skills via distance education. I highly doubt that there's any literature that says you can learn surgery (for an extreme example) adequately by watching videos. The poster didn't seem to be saying anything about didactics and distance learning.

You been drinking?

Okay. Kudos to you my friend. Show of cyber-hands...who's impressed with the ZENman's Matrix-esque ability to osmotically learn hands-on technical skills by watching videos? I haven't noticied any announcements from Mr. Jobs recently so I must assume you own the proto-type Matrix Lazy Boy. You are unique and so, unfortunately, your exceptional personal abilities do not allay the concerns regarding the inadequacy of web-based learning for the remainder of your NP colleagues.

Sorry, are you even an NP yet or do you still have a couple videos to watch?
 
The vast majority appears to be "home cooking"....by other online institutions. Much of the research is being pulled from other disciplines, which is hardly an apples to apples comparison for anything to do with healthcare.

There is a lot of distance education research published in peer-reviewed journals. I agree there may not be any research yet specifically using say tradition vs distance education students from the same program in the same university but you should be able to generalize educational modalities and learning strategies. Some, however may not be able to. My educator wife says she can teach a learning needs student how to study for say geography and they won't be able to employ the same techniques in any other class.
 
Honestly, the only reason that NPs/DNPs can practice independently in some states while PAs (who can be argued receive far superior training than NPs/DNPs do) is because of their powerful nursing lobby.

Hey Kaushik, I couldn't have said it any better. Unfortunately that is the case and by their current push for even more independence, it isn't looking good for PA's and furthermore even doctors, who they are trying to claim they are by the DNP curriculum (ABSOLUTE joke). By them getting away with this, it completely devaluates the rigorous training that "real" doctors have to endure.
 
This however, has nothing to do with the OP...this is assuming that the NP or PA is not doctorally prepared. How does it work if their title is:
Amy Smith, ACNP, DNP?
EVERY health care professional coming in contact with the patient should identify themselves, along with their title and or service.
"hello, my name is Dr. Smith, I am a cardiology nurse practitioner"
or
"hello, my name is Dr. Jones, I am a cardiologist"
Or, "I am a resident, I am a med student etc"...It is the patient's RIGHT to know who is taking care of them. If they identify themselves as a NP, then what is the problem. I think it is worse when a NP or PA or med student walks into a room with their white coat on and doesn't identify their role or title. That creates more confusion.
 
The idea of this thread is useless.

A Nurse Practitioner is a mid-level practitioner and a Doctor is a Doctor.

The curriculum of the DNP program is a joke and doesn't compare to being a doctor at all. Most programs are online and part-time and at most, a lobbying effort from the Nursing Association.



NP's practice NURSING. Doctor's practice Medicine.

While still a midlevel clinician, the better comparison is PA vs. Doctor. Because while a PA is also a dependent practitioner, he atleast practices medicine, which isn't true for NP's.

All in all, I think NP's are great. They have a place in healthcare for sure, but I'm sick of them trying to pose as doctors, and try to push for independent practice when they aren't trained for either. I just wish they stayed as they are supposed to be, which is a mid-level care provider and that I will have to admit, they do great!

And for the people who claimed that "NP's are better then PA's," I urge you to look at the curriculums and decide for yourself. I was under the same misconception as most people until my friend applied to PA schools and I was helping him look into curriculums and WOW, PA's are MUCH more trained then NP's, although none are Doctors.

I think you are making a very big generalization there. For one thing, lets not forget that PAs are not required to have ANY previous medical/nursing/science background. Although some do require it. Also, there are some online DNP programs, but those are designed for MSN to DNPs....in otherwords, the nurse is already an NP...I will add that in the case of AuD and speech, this is also the same...if they already have a masters degree, most classes are on line. Another major difference, is that NP schools are meant to be specialty focused (with the exception of FNP, which is a generalist, and much more involved). The PA is a generalist.

As for "doctors practice medicine"...um. no...PHYSICIANS practice medicine. Nurses practice nursing...the title of "doctor" is an academic title...
 
I think you are making a very big generalization there. For one thing, lets not forget that PAs are not required to have ANY previous medical/nursing/science background. Although some do require it. Also, there are some online DNP programs, but those are designed for MSN to DNPs....in otherwords, the nurse is already an NP...I will add that in the case of AuD and speech, this is also the same...if they already have a masters degree, most classes are on line. Another major difference, is that NP schools are meant to be specialty focused (with the exception of FNP, which is a generalist, and much more involved). The PA is a generalist.

As for "doctors practice medicine"...um. no...PHYSICIANS practice medicine. Nurses practice nursing...the title of "doctor" is an academic title...

It will be interesting to see how your attitude will change if you decide to pursue medical school like you're indicating in another thread.
 
I think you are making a very big generalization there. For one thing, lets not forget that PAs are not required to have ANY previous medical/nursing/science background. Although some do require it. Also, there are some online DNP programs, but those are designed for MSN to DNPs....in otherwords, the nurse is already an NP...I will add that in the case of AuD and speech, this is also the same...if they already have a masters degree, most classes are on line. Another major difference, is that NP schools are meant to be specialty focused (with the exception of FNP, which is a generalist, and much more involved). The PA is a generalist.

As for "doctors practice medicine"...um. no...PHYSICIANS practice medicine. Nurses practice nursing...the title of "doctor" is an academic title...

Um.......No.
 
I think you are making a very big generalization there. For one thing, lets not forget that PAs are not required to have ANY previous medical/nursing/science background. Although some do require it. Also, there are some online DNP programs, but those are designed for MSN to DNPs....in otherwords, the nurse is already an NP...I will add that in the case of AuD and speech, this is also the same...if they already have a masters degree, most classes are on line. Another major difference, is that NP schools are meant to be specialty focused (with the exception of FNP, which is a generalist, and much more involved). The PA is a generalist.

As for "doctors practice medicine"...um. no...PHYSICIANS practice medicine. Nurses practice nursing...the title of "doctor" is an academic title...

So, if I am sitting in the ER and a NP comes in the room and says "Hi, I am Dr. So & So", I can be certain that I will get good medical....nursing....care ? Oh wait, they're different....are they ? I have no problem acknowledging their academic doctorates in an academic setting. In a clinical setting, they can't call themselves doctor since it is not a clinical doctorate.
 
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I think you are making a very big generalization there. For one thing, lets not forget that PAs are not required to have ANY previous medical/nursing/science background. Although some do require it. Also, there are some online DNP programs, but those are designed for MSN to DNPs....in otherwords, the nurse is already an NP...I will add that in the case of AuD and speech, this is also the same...if they already have a masters degree, most classes are on line. Another major difference, is that NP schools are meant to be specialty focused (with the exception of FNP, which is a generalist, and much more involved). The PA is a generalist.

As for "doctors practice medicine"...um. no...PHYSICIANS practice medicine. Nurses practice nursing...the title of "doctor" is an academic title...
Even with the generalist focus, PAs seem to receive far better training that the specialist NPs do in their training. There are also BSN-DNP that can be done online in addition to several direct-entry programs that require no prior healthcare experiences.

The entire NP/DNP curriculum is a joke compared to the medical school curriculum. NPs/DNPs receive less than 10% of the training that physicians do, yet they are pushing for equivalency and equal reimbursements as physicians? Hmmm...

Physicians practice medicine. NPs/DNPs practice medicine under the guise of nursing. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks, it's a duck.
 
Even with the generalist focus, PAs seem to receive far better training that the specialist NPs do in their training. .

a lot of it is simply more clinical hrs.
a typical fnp gets 500 hrs of fp clinicals but so did I in my "generalist program".
an emergency np(there are 1-2 programs) gets 800 hrs of em clinicals. I got >1200 hrs of em/trauma.
an acute care np gets 500-750 hrs of hospital based medicine. so did I in my "generalist program"
etc, etc
so although the pa is a "generalist", with 2000-3000 hrs of clinicals they often get more in a given specialty than an np who is a "specialist " in that field but they also get a well rounded education in other fields as well..
my focus was em so my 54 week clinical yr looked like this:
trauma surgery/critical care 5 weeks( > 600 hrs)
hospital based IM/infectious dz (5 weeks)
emergency med ( 5 weeks)
inpatient psych ( 5 weeks)
hospital based obgyn ( 5 weeks)
peds em ( 5 weeks)
fp ( 12 weeks)
em elective ( 12 weeks)
 
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a lot of it is simply more clinical hrs.
a typical fnp gets 500 hrs of fp clinicals but so did I in my "generalist program".
an emergency np(there are 1-2 programs) gets 800 hrs of em clinicals. I got >1200 hrs of em/trauma.
an acute care np gets 500-750 hrs of hospital based medicine. so did I in my "generalist program"
etc, etc
so although the pa is a "generalist", with 2000-3000 hrs of clinicals they often get more in a given specialty than an np who is a "specialist " in that field but they also get a well rounded education in other fields as well..
my focus was em so my 54 week clinical yr looked like this:
trauma surgery/critical care 5 weeks( > 600 hrs)
hospital based IM/infectious dz (5 weeks)
emergency med ( 5 weeks)
inpatient psych ( 5 weeks)
hospital based obgyn ( 5 weeks)
peds em ( 5 weeks)
fp ( 12 weeks)
em elective ( 12 weeks)
Exactly. :thumbup:

I don't get the NPs/DNPs who seem to think that they're training is vastly greater than what PAs receive just because they can practice without oversight in some states. Honestly, the only reason NPs/DNPs can practice independently in some states whereas PAs can't is because of the powerful nursing lobby, not because they receive strong training in medical care.
 
Exactly. :thumbup:

Honestly, the only reason NPs/DNPs can practice independently in some states whereas PAs can't is because of the powerful nursing lobby, not because they receive strong training in medical care.
actually it's because they don't practice "medicine", they practice "advanced nursing" so the medical boards can't oversee them.....
 
actually it's because they don't practice "medicine", they practice "advanced nursing" so the medical boards can't oversee them.....

Fortunately, APN's (in particular CRNA's) are losing court battles when they move into the practice of medicine, even if they claim it's the practice of nursing.
 
Wow! What angry replies to simple comments. You all are really threatened by another profession that you don't control and is expanding in the healthcare field. Maybe, just maybe you should consider that everyone should be working for the betterment of the PATIENT. How sad that is not your focus. Thought I would give you the list of financial expansions for Nursing based practices, that the government is providing in the healthcare reform. The truth stands for itself. Just FYI, the best docs will tell you they are the best because they were smart enough to listen to their nurses. I don't think those who posted the defensive comments are the best docs. Pretty apparent that they lack professionalism to say the least.

Here is your list of reforms concerning the expanding field of Nursing Practice

The new U.S. health care law expands the role of nurses with:

$50 million to nurse-managed health clinics that offer primary care to low-income patients.

$50 million annually from 2012-15 for hospitals to train nurses with advanced degrees to care for Medicare patients.

10 percent bonuses from Medicare from 2011-16 to primary care providers, including nurse practitioners, who work in areas where doctors are scarce.

A boost in the Medicare reimbursement rate for certified nurse midwives to bring their pay to the same level as a doctor’s.
 
Cumulative Number of Medical Malpractice Reports
Data Bank filings (Period 9/90 – 9/09) :

• 11 for NPs (2339 in state† results in a 1:213 ratio)

• 66 for DO/Interns/Residents ( 539 in state† results in a 1:8 ratio)

• 2901 for MDs/Interns/Residents ( 10,779 in state† results in a 1:4 ratio)

†[Provider # calculations based upon: 1) # of NPs reported from BON for 2010 PEARSON REPORT; 2) # of DOs “as of June, 2009” data from American Osteopathic Association; 3) # of MDs from Kaiser State Health Facts “data are for December 2008” (provided # of physicians minus # of DOs)]

These are the stats for only one state but thought it was interesting information.
 
Exactly. :thumbup:

I don't get the NPs/DNPs who seem to think that they're training is vastly greater than what PAs receive just because they can practice without oversight in some states. Honestly, the only reason NPs/DNPs can practice independently in some states whereas PAs can't is because of the powerful nursing lobby, not because they receive strong training in medical care.
This is the reason most things happen the way they do....power/money/influence. The DNP was developed to pursue more power, make programs more money, and increase the influence of nursing.
 
These are the stats for only one state but thought it was interesting information.

I appreciate you pulling some hard data. :thumbup:

I suspect there are a number of reasons for the difference in ratios, though I'd hazard a guess one of the reasons is an unequal distribution of practice area. Certain specialities like OB/GYN are far more likely to be sued than say Internal Medicine. I'd love to play with the raw data and see if anything useful can be pulled from it.
 
I appreciate you pulling some hard data. :thumbup:

I suspect there are a number of reasons for the difference in ratios, though I'd hazard a guess one of the reasons is an unequal distribution of practice area. Certain specialities like OB/GYN are far more likely to be sued than say Internal Medicine. I'd love to play with the raw data and see if anything useful can be pulled from it.
This isn't pulled from anywhere, its copied from the Pearson report which is a report on the state of nurse practitioners put out every year by the American Journal for Nurse Practitioners. The particular state appears to be Kentucky. Besides the obvious bias from the authors its suspect for a number of other reasons. The data is the collective number from 1990-2009 for NPs/DOs/MDs respectively. Anyone who has studied malpractice claims knows that NPs (and PAs for that matter) were rarely included or dropped from lawsuits because the physician was perceived as the deeper pocket. Its only with the advent of caps on malpractice claims that there have been more claims against NPs and PAs. This is evidenced by the rise in malpractice insurance in the last 5-6 years for NPs and PAs.

Also using the NPDB does not measure apples to apples. There are four items reported to the NPDB:
* Medical Malpractice Payment Reports - required for malpractice payments for the benefit of physicians, dentists, and other licensed health care practitioners;
* Adverse Clinical Privilege and Professional Society Reports - required for physicians and dentists, although other practitioners may be reported;
* Adverse Licensure Action Reports - required for physicians and dentists; and
* Medicare and Medicaid Exclusions - for physicians, dentists and other licensed health care practitioners.

So Physicians are reported for all four areas but NPs (and PAs) are only reported for Medical Malpractice payments and Medicare and Medicaid Exclusions. The chart states Malpractice so its hard to know how these numbers are being figured. Also consider that unlike medical boards nursing boards may not routinely share disciplinary information among states,
http://www.nurseweek.com/news/Features/05-03/Malpractice.asp
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/705800_3
http://www.propublica.org/article/f...l-disciplinary-database-remarkably-incomplete

Also there is wide variation between states concerning the reporting of nurse related incidents compared to physicians. While there is concern that both BON and BOM are under reporting, the dentist to physician ratio has much less variance than the nurse to physician report ratio.
http://www.npdb-hipdb.com/pubs/stats/2006_NPDB_Annual_Report.pdf

Basically this an editorial hiding as "statistics".

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
This isn't pulled from anywhere, its copied from the Pearson report which is a report on the state of nurse practitioners put out every year by the American Journal for Nurse Practitioners. The particular state appears to be Kentucky. Besides the obvious bias from the authors its suspect for a number of other reasons. The data is the collective number from 1990-2009 for NPs/DOs/MDs respectively. Anyone who has studied malpractice claims knows that NPs (and PAs for that matter) were rarely included or dropped from lawsuits because the physician was perceived as the deeper pocket. Its only with the advent of caps on malpractice claims that there have been more claims against NPs and PAs. This is evidenced by the rise in malpractice insurance in the last 5-6 years for NPs and PAs.

Also using the NPDB does not measure apples to apples. There are four items reported to the NPDB:
* Medical Malpractice Payment Reports - required for malpractice payments for the benefit of physicians, dentists, and other licensed health care practitioners;
* Adverse Clinical Privilege and Professional Society Reports - required for physicians and dentists, although other practitioners may be reported;
* Adverse Licensure Action Reports - required for physicians and dentists; and
* Medicare and Medicaid Exclusions - for physicians, dentists and other licensed health care practitioners.

So Physicians are reported for all four areas but NPs (and PAs) are only reported for Medical Malpractice payments and Medicare and Medicaid Exclusions. The chart states Malpractice so its hard to know how these numbers are being figured. Also consider that unlike medical boards nursing boards may not routinely share disciplinary information among states,
http://www.nurseweek.com/news/Features/05-03/Malpractice.asp
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/705800_3
http://www.propublica.org/article/f...l-disciplinary-database-remarkably-incomplete

Also there is wide variation between states concerning the reporting of nurse related incidents compared to physicians. While there is concern that both BON and BOM are under reporting, the dentist to physician ratio has much less variance than the nurse to physician report ratio.
http://www.npdb-hipdb.com/pubs/stats/2006_NPDB_Annual_Report.pdf

Basically this an editorial hiding as "statistics".

David Carpenter, PA-C
:thumbup:
Thanks for pointing this out. "The Pearson Report" is laughable at best and propaganda at worst.

A few sparkling gems from "The Pearson Report" Overview:
Linda J. Pearson, DNSc, FPMHNP-BC, FAANP
Family Psychiatric Mental Health NP

...

For the past 22 years, I have written an annual report that summarizes nurse practitioner legislation in each state. This annual report includes a review of pertinent state legislation and of rules and regulations that affect NPs, along with pertinent government, policy, and reimbursement information. The report continues to be widely disseminated, discussed, and utilized to promote legislation to allow NPs to practice to their full potential..

...

This 2010 Pearson Report Summary presents an overview of all 50 states and the District of Columbia in five areas: whether a Doctorate NP can legally be addressed as “Dr,” which NP titles are legally recognized, whether physician involvement is required for NP diagnosing and treating, whether physician involvement is required for NP prescribing, and whether any expansion in the NP SOP occurred in 2009. Consistent with the trend observed over the past 30 years of legislative or regulatory SOP role expansion for NPs, the following states succeeded in obtaining various degrees of additional SOP expansion: ALABAMA, ALASKA, ARIZONA, CALIFORNIA, COLORADO, FLORIDA, GEORGIA, HAWAII, IDAHO, KENTUCKY, LOUISIANA, MAINE, MISSISSIPPI, MONTANA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, NEW JERSEY, NEW MEXICO, NEW YORK, NORTH DAKOTA, OHIO, OKLAHOMA, OREGON, PENNSYLVANIA, RHODE ISLAND, SOUTH DAKOTA, TENNESSEE, TEXAS, UTAH, VIRGINIA, WASHINGTON, and WEST VIRGINIA.

...

On first inspection of these ratios, skeptical observers might challenge that (1) MDs and DOs handle riskier cases; (2) MDs and DOs have a broader SOP than do NPs; and (3) the total numbers of providers on which these ratios are based may not be accurate. Responses to these arguments are as follows: (1) Although many DOs and MDs handle a difficult caseload, one cannot discount the fact that a broad, deep, and consistent difference exists in the number of reported malpractice events (and HIPDB occurrences) among the providers, a difference that cannot be fully explained by “difficulty of cases” (also, NPs are practicing independently in increasingly stressful, complicated, and difficult positions and situations); (2) At the very least, these solid NP safety ratios demonstrate that the requirement for NPs to have physician supervision for safety’s sake is baseless; and (3) The lack of precision regarding the number of active providers likely applies evenly across all three professions.

...

NPs must use these malpractice and malfeasance ratios and figures to show legislators that the rationale for physician supervision over NPs is unfounded.

NPs have been providing safe, top-notch primary care for decades. As FactCheck.org has explained, humans tend to cling to previously held beliefs and reject or ignore new ideas offered by a new person. This propensity undoubtedly explains, at least in part, why healthcare policy analysts sometimes exclude NPs from serious discussions about healthcare reform and problems related to the lack of primary care providers. NPs must remind all policymakers of their value in helping solve the nation’s healthcare crisis. As President Obama persuasively articulated, "Yes We Can!"

NPs must continue to strive to remove statutory restrictions that prohibit NPs with earned doctorates from being addressed as ‘doctor." Many states have no requirement that doctorally-prepared NPs declare or clarify that they are NPs, and I also commend those states that have legislatively allowed qualified NPs to be addressed as “doctor” in the clinical setting as long as these doctorally-prepared NPs clarify that they are NPs. My concern centers on the eight states — Arkansas, Connecticut, Georgia, Maine, Mississippi, Ohio, Oklahoma, and Oregon — that have statutory restrictions against doctorally-educated NPs being addressed appropriately as “Doctor NP.” Kudos to Iowa’s NPs and legislature, who removed this legislative restraint in 2008.

...

Conclusion

Nurse practitioners, as part of the nursing profession, rate among the most trusted healthcare providers because we have earned consumers’ trust. NPs must continue our crusade to increase NPs’ legislatively sanctioned autonomy. Lack of NP practice autonomy robs citizens of a solution to some of the nation’s worst healthcare problems: access, quality of care, and affordability.

In 2009, 31 states reported some degree of an expanded legislative or regulatory NP SOP (See Summary Table 1). This number is up from 22 states that expanded their NP SOP in 2008 and 19 states that did so in 2007. We are moving in the right direction. The road map has been created by the Consensus Document to guide future regulatory directions. We must continue to encourage our legislators to do what is best for our nation—removingallbarriers to autonomous NP practice.

Nurse practitioners are powerfully important healthcare providers who are available to help our nation improve its healthcare outcomes and lower healthcare costs. We are almost 160,000 strong! One unwavering, fervent goal continues forThe Pearson Report—that NPs will share this annual updated legislative information with their legislators to help promote the truth that NPs are safe, competent, accessible, affordable, and high-quality healthcare providers. Barriers to fully autonomous NP practice mustbe removed to afford our citizens the care they deserve and desire from nurse practitioners.
 
The only people who should be addressed as "doctors" in health care are physicians. Nurses are not doctors. The Doctor of Nursing Practice is an oxymoron. This degree is a joke. And before you hate on my PharmD, that degree was introduced in the early 1900s and became more prevalent in the 1960s. It isn't a diploma mill MD reject degree, and pharmacists have always practiced independently. We haven't stepped on physicians toes and asked for outright prescriptive authority. There is overlap between what an MD and NP does, but the NP is supervised. Calling an NP "doctor" creates confusion for patients. Pharmacists shouldn't use the title either. Nothing makes me want to puke more than some pharmacy meeting circle jerk where everyone calls each other "doctor." If you want to practice medicine and be called "doctor," go to medical school. The degree creep is getting out of hand. Everyone will have a doctorate soon. I don't have a problem acknowledging doctorate level education in academia, but in a clinical setting, it is inappropriate to use the title "doctor" unless you are a physician. The creation of this DNP degree is to promote nursing's agenda to create practitioners that are supposedly equal to physicians. As long as "nursing" is a part of the degree, DNPs will never be considered "doctors" in the eyes of physicians or other healthcare professionals.
 
Degree creep is evident everywhere, because it brings in money. I know a girl who plays trombone in the orchestra. She got her PhD in music theory. They call her "doctor" and then people get confused when she says she plays the trombone.
 
The only people who should be addressed as "doctors" in health care are physicians. Nurses are not doctors. The Doctor of Nursing Practice is an oxymoron. This degree is a joke. And before you hate on my PharmD, that degree was introduced in the early 1900s and became more prevalent in the 1960s. It isn't a diploma mill MD reject degree, and pharmacists have always practiced independently. We haven't stepped on physicians toes and asked for outright prescriptive authority. There is overlap between what an MD and NP does, but the NP is supervised. Calling an NP "doctor" creates confusion for patients. Pharmacists shouldn't use the title either. Nothing makes me want to puke more than some pharmacy meeting circle jerk where everyone calls each other "doctor." If you want to practice medicine and be called "doctor," go to medical school. The degree creep is getting out of hand. Everyone will have a doctorate soon. I don't have a problem acknowledging doctorate level education in academia, but in a clinical setting, it is inappropriate to use the title "doctor" unless you are a physician. The creation of this DNP degree is to promote nursing's agenda to create practitioners that are supposedly equal to physicians. As long as "nursing" is a part of the degree, DNPs will never be considered "doctors" in the eyes of physicians or other healthcare professionals.

You "have always practiced independently" , really? I thought MDs wrote the rx you fill? The school of Pharmacy I am familiar with has been seeking "cerebral reimbursement" for the past 10 years. They are seeking to manage DM and HTN without MD supervision; they want to independently provide immunizations in the pharmacy. Thus, what are you seeking independence? , collaboration? Tell us about your vast experience as a practicing Pham D about the real world.
 
Pharmacists do work independently, but I never said we were equal to physicians because we are not. When I am the pharmacist on duty I'm in charge and the buck stops with me. I don't work for a physician. I can refuse to fill a prescription if I think it is unsafe. A doctor cannot force me to fill it. I am not supervised by a physician. There are laws that protect me if I refuse to fill a prescription. I would consider this working independently wouldn't you?. Managing DM and HTN is expansion of scope of practice that some in the profession feel is necessary for pharmacists to do but is irrelevant to this discussion. There will always be a school of thought in professions where we think we have to stick our noses in other people's business. We just need to be pharmacists and nurses should just be nurses. We've gotten along fine thus far, considering pharmacy is one of the oldest professions. With our current scope of practice, we are a safety net for the public. I don't give a **** about that other stuff. Your basic pharmacist is an independent practitioner that practices pharmacy. I would have gone to medical school if I wanted to write prescriptions. And since you brought immunizations up, they just passed a law in my state that will allow us to give influenza immunizations without a standing order from a physician. I didn't mind the standing order thing, but whatever, if it makes some people feel better. Anyway, my original point was that it is ******ed for nurses to call themselves "doctor" in a clinical setting. The same goes with pharmacists. I will acknowledge academic achievement, but in a clinical setting, only MDs and DOs are "doctors." I don't want a mid-level practitioner treating me or my family introducing themselves as "Dr. SoAndSo" if they are not a doctor. I would like to know the credentials of the person I am being treated by. The DNP is not as rigorous as a MD/DO program and therefore the degrees are not equivalent, even though some nurses with delusions of grandeur would like to believe. Yeah, I'm a new pharmacist but I've been in pharmacy for a long time. And I originally come from a blue-collar background. I know about the real world.
 
The only people who should be addressed as "doctors" in health care are physicians. Nurses are not doctors. The Doctor of Nursing Practice is an oxymoron. This degree is a joke. And before you hate on my PharmD, that degree was introduced in the early 1900s and became more prevalent in the 1960s. It isn't a diploma mill MD reject degree, and pharmacists have always practiced independently.

Since when did pharmacists have a "practice?"

I also think the DNP degree is pretty good for what it was designed to do, and if you look at some of their capstone projects you'll see that. I wouldn't want to do it though because I want more clinical hours, not knowledge on affecting health care change or how to set up a health business enterprise.
 
I mean no disrespect to nurse practitioners because they are valuable members of the health care team. They just don't need to be called "doctor." All this does is create confusion.
 
Degree creep is evident everywhere, because it brings in money. I know a girl who plays trombone in the orchestra. She got her PhD in music theory. They call her "doctor" and then people get confused when she says she plays the trombone.

The degree creep thing bringing in money is very true. I'll admit it happened in my own profession when they made the PharmD mandatory. The public never demanded more doctoral trained pharmacists. When the PharmD was revamped in the 1960s it was intended for those who wanted to do clinical pharmacy. Now that everyone has the PharmD, you have to do a residency if you want to be a clinical pharmacist. All this did was create an atmosphere where schools can charge more for tuition and put students into further debt. I really respect PhDs, and have no problem with them using the title doctor in an academic setting, but your point is well taken. Even when you watch the news, they don't call members of their expert panel "Dr. SoandSo" if they are PhDs. They simply say, "Mike has a PhD in political science," or whoever. When an MD comes along, they are introduced as "doctor." The lay public just doesn't get it and they get confused when someone who is not an MD refers to him or herself as doctor. Those who think that most people will know the difference between "doctors" with DNPs or MDs/DOs, or someone with a DrPH, DBA, or whatever give the general public too much credit because people are dumb. JDs are have doctorates but they don't use the title. I think it's a traditional thing. Even though I am a PharmD, I have never used or will ever use the title "doctor." When people come into my pharmacy and call me "doc," I tell them to call me by my first name.
 
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I mean no disrespect to nurse practitioners because they are valuable members of the health care team. They just don't need to be called "doctor." All this does is create confusion.

I once worked in PM&R and I don't remember anyone getting confused when a psychologist, for example, approached a patient and said, "I'm Dr. Smith. I'm a psychologist and I'm here to....

I'm currently in a large VA outpt. clinic (psych, primary care) and we have psychologists, all kinds of therapists, NP's and physicians running around in the same space. I don't think too many patients are confused...at least not about this issue. :D
 
I once worked in PM&R and I don't remember anyone getting confused when a psychologist, for example, approached a patient and said, "I'm Dr. Smith. I'm a psychologist and I'm here to....

I'm currently in a large VA outpt. clinic (psych, primary care) and we have psychologists, all kinds of therapists, NP's and physicians running around in the same space. I don't think too many patients are confused...at least not about this issue. :D

The difference here though is that the psychologist is making clear what he or she does. There isn't a question as to what this person's profession is. But not every nurse practitioner will say, "Hello, I'm Dr. Smith. I am a nurse practitioner." I think the VA is a little more progressive than most settings though. Correct me if I'm wrong. I did a rotation there and it was an awesome experience. Very fulfilling helping those that have served the US. I envy you man.

Hell, I had a guy that was a DC working with an orthopedic physician confuse me once. It was a strange collaboration, but whatever floats their boat. The patient had been getting all kinds of narcotics from other pharmacies and was dumb enough to use his insurance card to pay for it. I contacted the prescriber's office to notify him but the nurses couldn't get the MD that wrote it. So they put another "doctor" on the line and he asked me to cancel the prescription. I documented everything on the Rx. The next thing I know, I had an angry MD call me asking why I canceled his Rx. I told him what was going on and that Dr. Lee asked me to cancel it. The original prescriber said, "That man is not a physician. He is a chiropractor." So a guy that has zero prescriptive authority canceled a prescription. The MD did decide he wanted it canceled after I explained the situation. I also explained to him that this Lee guy introduced himself as "doctor" on the phone. I said hell, I guess they are giving doctorates to everyone now. Even the back crackers. I apologized for the confusion and everything was cool. The MD just didn't like the idea of a non-physician canceling his prescription, and I don't blame him one bit.
 
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But not every nurse practitioner will say, "Hello, I'm Dr. Smith. I am a nurse practitioner."

Perhaps but not every DPT, or Harmed will either, so where is the tooth gnashing about that? It all comes down to the word nurse. For some reason it is all right foe every health profession to get a doctorate but not nursing, even PA are going to a doctorate but I do not see any yelling and screaming. Face it this is all just Physician paranoia being echoed by a little army of sycophants who feel that "their" doctorate is real. It is not driven by a single fact. There has not been ONE documented case of a DNP misrepresenting themselves, and I do not want to hear any anecdotes cause we can all pull those out of the air forever.
 
For some reason it is all right foe every health profession to get a doctorate but not nursing, even PA are going to a doctorate but I do not see any yelling and screaming.

Wrong. There is no plan for the PA profession to go to a doctorate. There are some who have PhD's, but not a PhD in PA studies or such. Wake Forest now has a dual MPAS/PhD track, but that is a research track PhD program.

Furthermore the PA profession clearly states we work FOR the Doctors. The (real) Doctors have much more training and education than we do, therefore they take the lead in healthcare. While most NPs feel the same way, there is a (powerful) vocal minority within the nursing profession that continues to push for equality between NPs and Doctors; equality in pay (CMS compensation) and equality in social stature ("I'm a Doctor now!").

If you want to be called Doctor in a clinical setting, then get great grades in college, knock your MCAT out of the park, go to medical school, attend a residency, and become a real Doctor. Otherwise, if you call yourself Doctor in a clinical setting, you will hear snickering and laughing from a lot of people...laughing that you can rest assured that we will, indeed, be laughing AT you, and not WITH you!
 
http://www.baylor.edu/graduate/pt/index.php?id=27028

here is the clinical doctorate from baylor, argue with the army, it is true that Pa orginizations oppose the clinical doctorate but it exists, I suppose all those army PA's want to be called doctor.

The rest of your post says the the same things that doctors say but is not substantiated, no one is arguing that MD's have more training and thet using the title doctor in a clinical setting can be confusing to a patient.

I assume you will now start assailing PT and PharmD with the same concerns I mean they must want to confuse patients to, or is it that all of you just get a rush out of the dogpiling of nurses?
 
I'm familiar with the Baylor program. Yes, it is a true clinical doctorate (unlike the DNP which looks to me like it is more of an MPH), but the army PAs won't be called "Doctor" in the clinical settings. Why? Because they are not Doctors.

The O-6 who did my retirement physical is a PA. He was also the CO of the medical group. He had a handful of (real) Doctors who worked for him because he is an O-6, and the CO. But they didn't refer to him as "Doctor". Why? Because he wasn't a Doctor.

Stop trying to find a "victim" in the discussion because I'm not 'assailing' anybody. I have a great deal of respect for NPs (and PTs and PharmDs). But none of these folks should introduce themselves as a "Doctor" in a clinical setting because it is a misrepresentation of their skills.

And did you really just mention a dogpile of nurses?? Hmmmmm.....would have to give that some serious thought! :)
 
why do you insist on this nurse calling themselves "doctor", it is a nonissue there has not been a reported incident it is just a red herring that people are jumping at, I repeat why is no one screaming about the other doctorates and PharmD, or PT calling themselves doctor?

When I start hearing those concerns then maybe everyones concerns may have some credability, by the way any concern about optometrists calling themselves "doctor"? thought not, face it the hysteria is the same as the hysteria over the mosque in NY
 
Since when did pharmacists have a "practice?"

I also think the DNP degree is pretty good for what it was designed to do, and if you look at some of their capstone projects you'll see that. I wouldn't want to do it though because I want more clinical hours, not knowledge on affecting health care change or how to set up a health business enterprise.

Regarding the use of "practice": you really don't know what you are talking about. What cracks me up is when people are trying to be condescending and are completely incorrect. (Sidebar: coincidentally a couple weeks ago while I was working my prn gig I called a nurse practicioner who prescribed amoxicillin to a patient with a hx of a pcn allergy (hives). I called her regarding this. She (in a very condescending tone) went on to state "Yes, I'm aware he has a PEN-i-cillin allergy, that's why I prescribed A-MOX-i-cillin now just do as you're told and fill the script." and she hangs up. I proceeded to call back the urgent care center, asked for the MD/DO on duty and of course the medication was changed) Gamecock stated pharmacists practiced independently. You really should look up definitions regarding the word "practice" before trying to talk down to him.

What exactly is the DNP designed to do? I've heard some people state that it shall make NP's the equivalent to physicians, yet your statements make it sound more like a MPH degree.
 
why do you insist on this nurse calling themselves "doctor", it is a nonissue there has not been a reported incident it is just a red herring that people are jumping at, I repeat why is no one screaming about the other doctorates and PharmD, or PT calling themselves doctor?

When I start hearing those concerns then maybe everyones concerns may have some credability, by the way any concern about optometrists calling themselves "doctor"? thought not, face it the hysteria is the same as the hysteria over the mosque in NY

First you claim people are "assailing" you (or someone). Now you are claiming people are "screaming" about DNPs calling themselves Doctor. Then you say some of us are suffering from hysteria.

No, no, and no. Nobody is assailing you, nobody is screaming, and nobody has hysteria, so you can stop trying to make us "feel bad" about our points of view.
 
I'm not singling out nurses, and I do not get a rush from "dogpiling" them. If you look at my previous posts, I said PharmDs should not be called doctor in a clinical setting either, and I'm a PharmD. That is my personal opinion and it is fine if anyone disagrees. When pts. come into my pharmacy and call me "doc," I explain to them that I am a doctor of pharmacy and not a medical doctor, and they can call me by my first name. And believe me, I don't get called "doc" very often because most do not view pharmacists as doctors. Pharmacists do not get called doctor in a clinical setting by other healthcare professionals, only in an academic setting if they hold a PharmD. I don't get off on being called doctor anyway. I'm proud to get a doctorate, especially since I am the only person in my family to get a college degree. But I am not a doctor and I do not wish to be called one. I guess we should just call everyone doctor so they don't get their feelings hurt. That sounds like a good idea right? The term doctor means "teacher." So in an academic setting, if you hold a doctorate, the title makes sense. But traditionally, in a clinical setting, doctor = physician.

Gamecock stated pharmacists practiced independently. You really should look up definitions regarding the word "practice" before trying to talk down to him.

Thanks bud, we do indeed practice pharmacy.
 
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For some reason it is all right foe every health profession to get a doctorate but not nursing,
You do realize that nursing Ph.Ds and Ed.Ds have been around from a while right? It's poor justification to want a doctorate degree just because it's the cool thing to do. Also, people wouldn't have as much of a problem with the DNP if it added any useful clinical training. The nursing organizations tout it as a clinical doctorate, but it has barely any courses that are designed to help in clinical practice. Instead, it's filled with courses on business management, health policy, statistics, and has a Capstone project (no idea why you need to do research for a supposed clinical doctorate when a nursing PhD already exists). As others have mentioned, the similarities between the DNP and MPH degrees are striking.
 
You do realize that every response has boiled down to the title doctor, as if suddenly if nurses got a clinical doctorate then they will all run off and insist on the title in clinical settings, one again anyone got a problem with an optometrist calling themselves doctor? If not then the entire argument is specious and just MD fueled paranoia.
And yes I am aware that the PhD in nursing has been around for a long time, however the same demographic that moans about this moans about a PhD in nursing with the same arguments.
 
You do realize that every response has boiled down to the title doctor, as if suddenly if nurses got a clinical doctorate then they will all run off and insist on the title in clinical settings, one again anyone got a problem with an optometrist calling themselves doctor? If not then the entire argument is specious and just MD fueled paranoia.
And yes I am aware that the PhD in nursing has been around for a long time, however the same demographic that moans about this moans about a PhD in nursing with the same arguments.

You are at it again. Instead of confining your argument to the discussion at hand (whether DNPs should refer to themselves as Doctor in a clinical setting), you start attacking those who disagree with you by referring to our "paranoia".

YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM (victim of being "assailed", or somebody's "paranoia" or "hysteria").

Now, two points to the actual discussion:

1: Why do you call the DNP a "Clinical Doctorate"? Most of the curriculums I have seen are more like a MPH for NPs with little (to no!) more clinical hours required than for a MSN/NP (which only averages about 500 hours anyway...far, far short of the PA and any other "clinical doctorate" degree I know of).

2: If an optometrist walks into a hospital and calls him/herself a Doctor, people are gonna laugh.
 
I quit working in a hospital (best move ever)

In 20+ years of working in many places (most years as an RN) the only two places that I have seen a nurse wanting to be called "Doctor:" A university classroom (recent PhD grad), and at nursing conferences...

It certainly was silly (when I heard about it the first time) when she insisted to the students in the classroom that she be called "Doctor"
My first semester students in clinicals knew she was a tool...

And when I attend a conference, I always cringe at nurses calling themselves "Doctor"
Who are you kidding?
No one is impressed...

Anyway, not that it doesn't happen in hospitals, as it most likely does; BUT...

The outrage by Taurus et al makes for good "sky is falling" blogs on the internet, which is the very (and likely the only) place where it is most present (outside of academia).

I don't think anyone (in advanced practice nursing) actually believes that the DNP is even remotely close to being a phycisian...It's all (internet) hyperbole, and makes good fodder for DRAMA, which nurses are so adept at anyway...

I'll stick to teaching clinicals where the students have one goal in mind: to learn to be an RN, nothing more, nothing less...

And FWIW (having taught nursing for many years at several schools), I disagree w/ the notion that nursing schools push the APN "agenda" down the throats of the students.

Sure, some encourage the NP route, (I personally encourage the PA/med school route, and only for those who espouse one day to be an NP/CRNA) but it's not at all what some (on SDN) would claim.

We just want them to be good nurses, period.
 
The points of discussion were never about the cirriculam(at least not yours) as to should clinicans be calling themselves doctor in a clinical setting we have already agreed no, my point is that it is not happening so all of the hullaballo about it is really pointless.

As to the assailing part, why so worked up now? Why this Doctorate? As has been pointed out there have been others in the system with clinical doctorates but no one seemed to be worked up about it. Where is the outcry and concern over PharmD calling themselves doctor or Dpt's? There is none only nurses thus my point about the outcry.

So really, let me here the concern over the others (as if it really is an issue) until then it IS really no more then some raging paranoia.
 
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