Do all DO students graduating 2020 or later need to take USMLE or for competitive?

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Most PDs would recommend all DO students operate under the assumption that both exams are required. The only exception would be the small group of DO students that are testing very poorly prior to their exam date, and do not have a reasonable chance of passing USMLE. A failed exam is far worse than not taking it, so it's important to be realistic about expectations.
 
cryhavoc said:
Or just those ones going for a competitive specialty?

I'm going to start studying this summer and want to make sure I'm prepping appropriately.
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Depends what your definition of "competitive" specialty is.

PS. You will forget what you study over summer.
 
General opinion is that everyone above the bottom 3rd of their class and scoring above a 210 on their nbme practice tests should take it. Whether you end up needing it or not isn't the question, but whether it'll influence how you'll need to apply.

68PGunner said:
The answer is a resounding yes unless u want to go unmatched or settle for IM/FM in the boonies.
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Many people in my school's recent graduating class matched university programs in path, psych, fm, gas, and even em with just COMLEX. I'm not sure where you got this idea that COMLEX-only means that you only are able to apply to back wood programs.
 
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Need to? Probably not. But the only plausible reason not to take it is if you aren't scoring at least 215 or so on practice tests. Even if your usmle is below average it still may end up helping you, but in that respect you want to be sure you can pass it because you definitely don't want to fail it either.

If you're applying for something competive then you should be a competive person yourself, and do everything you can possible to increase your odds.

Assuming you're a first year who just finished, please don't start studying now and enjoy your summer. It's not worth it at all. Just enjoy yourself.
 
cryhavoc said:
Or just those ones going for a competitive specialty?

I'm going to start studying this summer and want to make sure I'm prepping appropriately.
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Coming from experience just matched this year. I ended up not taking the usmle and I regret it. I scored high on comlex high end of 500, top 5% of my class , all honors except one high pass in clerkships, interviews went good. I believed programs when they said they take comlex on their website so I thought I didn't need the usmle. I didn't apply to any really competitive programs so I thought I'd be fine. Yes i got interviews at those places but in the end I didnt match to my top two places who I saw took IMG and FMG over me. I still ended up at a good program but I know in the end it came down to me not having usmle.....point is as a DO take usmle so you are on equal ground as the mds who take it . Yes it's stupid but unfortunately that's how it goes
 
pedsisthebest333 said:
Coming from experience just matched this year. I ended up not taking the usmle and I regret it. I scored high on comlex high end of 500, top 5% of my class , all honors except one high pass in clerkships, interviews went good. I believed programs when they said they take comlex on their website so I thought I didn't need the usmle. I didn't apply to any really competitive programs so I thought I'd be fine. Yes i got interviews at those places but in the end I didnt match to my top two places who I saw took IMG and FMG over me. I still ended up at a good program but I know in the end it came down to me not having usmle.....point is as a DO take usmle so you are on equal ground as the mds who take it . Yes it's stupid but unfortunately that's how it goes
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Thank you for sharing.

More reality check for the DO students out there.
 
ChiTownBHawks said:
I know, right? Let's ignore the tens upon tens upon tens of personal experiences that dr celts alluded to and rely on that random anonymous internet experience. Especially when that random person on an anonymous forum KNOWS that's why they didn't match there.

....What
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There's a saying about horses and drinking.

Either way they likely missed the part that they matched regardless.
 
ChiTownBHawks said:
I know, right? Let's ignore the tens upon tens upon tens of personal experiences that dr celts alluded to and rely on that random anonymous internet experience. Especially when that random person on an anonymous forum KNOWS that's why they didn't match there.

....What
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What tens upon tens of personal experiences that dr celts alluded to? We have legitimate PDs from ACGME programs telling people to take the USMLE and yet we still have delusional DOs out there saying that the COMLEX is a credible substitute. No, it isn't. ACGME PDs either don't know how to interpret the COMLEX or think that the COMLEX is an inferior exam in which the curve is based on inferior medical students. If you want to be considered equivalent to a MD, you better take the USMLE in order to be compared to a MD.
 
ChiTownBHawks said:
I know of, personally, numerous DO's who have graduated within the last 1-2 years who have only taken comlex and matched at university programs in the fields celts talked about. But, of course, you only listen to what you want so not even sure why I'm replying.

As an aside I'm pretty damn pro-usmle for DOs. But, man, not taking it is definitely not a free ride to the land of suck that you have convinced yourself it is.
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Name those university programs and the specialties right now.
 
68PGunner said:
There is a difference between matching in the boonies and matching at a desirable location.
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Minneapolis, Kansas City, St. Louis, and a few others I know matched university FM programs. I know another two from last year who matched competitive specialties at KUMC & UMKC with just COMLEX, but I consider those less of my point because I would recommend USMLE if someone wanted to go into them.

But regardless, I have no real need to continue arguing with you. Plenty of people will continue to match relatively well in non-competitive specialties in decent places. And to remind you, the world does exist outside of surgery and more fields than not aren't extremely competitive.
 
ChiTownBHawks said:
I know of, personally, numerous DO's who have graduated within the last 1-2 years who have only taken comlex and matched at university programs in the fields celts talked about. But, of course, you only listen to what you want so not even sure why I'm replying.

As an aside I'm pretty damn pro-usmle for DOs. But, man, not taking it is definitely not a free ride to the land of suck that you have convinced yourself it is.
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Right, I'm not really sure where he got this impression from tbh. Sure, if you have a sub 500 comlex you're going to be getting the bottom of the barrel in terms of pickings, but for those who score above a 520? They can match pretty decently into a lot of things even in the ACGME.
 
I agree that if FM is your calling, university FM programs have no trouble with Comlex at many places. Anything more, and you should be taking USMLE.

But having said that, I have talked with multiple 4th years who expressed regret over not taking USMLE, because it cut off options for them, even tho they matched. If you want the most options, no matter what the field, USMLE will give you that. But if your gonna get a 215 or below, I don't know. I wouldn't take it unless my NBME says at least 220.
 
Lot of experts on the match here, who have never actually been through the match. Best line "without usmle you can only match into FM MD programs" and another line that adds to that "you shouldn't even take usmle if you're going to score 215 or below" (which btw, most DO students score a lot lower then MD students).
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
Minneapolis, Kansas City, St. Louis, and a few others I know matched university FM programs. I know another two from last year who matched competitive specialties at KUMC & UMKC with just COMLEX, but I consider those less of my point because I would recommend USMLE if someone wanted to go into them.

But regardless, I have no real need to continue arguing with you. Plenty of people will continue to match relatively well in non-competitive specialties in decent places. And to remind you, the world does exist outside of surgery and more fields than not aren't extremely competitive.
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I matched into a great university program in a very desirable city. I only took comlex like I said earlier So it is possible to still match into a md program only taking comlex. But you shut doors at some places and even if you get an interview in the end when rank order is being done I feel that person with the usmle will be ranked higher up than a person with comlex only. even if they have a low usmle 200 a comlex only person will still be ranked lower.
 
I swear every thread here sounds the same or has the same arguments.

Anyway, it depends on what specialty you want to go to and how competitive you want to be. IMO, just prepare for the USLME, work hard, do your best.
 
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pedsisthebest333 said:
I matched into a great university program in a very desirable city. I only took comlex like I said earlier So it is possible to still match into a md program only taking comlex. But you shut doors at some places and even if you get an interview in the end when rank order is being done I feel that person with the usmle will be ranked higher up than a person with comlex only. even if they have a low usmle 200 a comlex only person will still be ranked lower.
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I agree. You'd open up more doors with a usmle score in hand. I don't think anyone can really debate or deny that. I was mainly disagreeing with this belief that 68 has that basically denies your existence and fully believes you and other complex-only doctors are only able to match into programs in backwood areas.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
Minneapolis, Kansas City, St. Louis, and a few others I know matched university FM programs. I know another two from last year who matched competitive specialties at KUMC & UMKC with just COMLEX, but I consider those less of my point because I would recommend USMLE if someone wanted to go into them.

But regardless, I have no real need to continue arguing with you. Plenty of people will continue to match relatively well in non-competitive specialties in decent places. And to remind you, the world does exist outside of surgery and more fields than not aren't extremely competitive.
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To add on to this, I know people from my school with COMLEX only over the last couple years who got into FM and Neurology at UPMC, IM at FAU and USF, Neuro at UConn, FM, Neuro and IM at PSU, Peds and IM at UBuffalo, PM&R at SUNY-Stony Brook, Upstate, and NYU, Psych at URochester, UConn, UF, UH/Case, Drexel, and UT-San Antonio, etc.

None of this is to say you shouldn't take the USMLE if you can do OK or better on it. You absolutely should. Most people that don't take it say it limited them on applications and interviews. That said, you absolutely can match to a number of university programs without it, but it's harder. Again, I recommend planning to take it and doing it if you are doing well on NBMEs.
 
All you need to do is look at RVU's latest match list to understand why taking the USMLE has its benefits. I believe this was the first class of any DO school where everyone took step 1 and the results speak for themselves.
 
68PGunner said:
Pure laziness and insecurity.
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?? How do you figure that? Everyone I know that didn't take it had good reasons for doing so, including not needing it for their desired specialty and match location, not wanting to pay 600 bucks for an additional questionably necessary exam while they are supporting a full family on their loan allotment, and not feeling comfortable based on their pre-exam NBMEs. Get your head out of your ass and realize that different people do different things for different reasons. You act so much holier-than-thou and you haven't even taken these exams yet.
 
surfguy84 said:
Exactly. When I hear my classmates in my class tell me they aren't taking USMLE.....it's always the laziest ones.
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The people I know who aren't take it are either people who won't likely do well on it, want to go into primary care, and military students who from what I understand have no disadvantages in not taking it.
 
jrlob91 said:
?? How do you figure that? Everyone I know that didn't take it had good reasons for doing so, including not needing it for their desired specialty and match location
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Nobody knows what the desired specialty and match location are before Year 3.
not wanting to pay 600 bucks for an additional questionably necessary exam while they are supporting a full family on their loan allotment
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How much is $600 in term of the overall tuition of $300K for four years again? Excuse.
not feeling comfortable based on their pre-exam NBMEs.
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This goes back to my point of insecurity in term of feeling more comfortable being placed in a curve among DO students on the COMLEX exam vs being placed in a curve among MD students on the USMLE. For these people, PDs are right to feel that DOs are inferior medical students relative to MDs.
 
68PGunner said:
Nobody knows what the desired specialty and match location are before Year 3.

How much is $600 in term of the overall tuition of $300K for four years again? Excuse.

This goes back to my point of insecurity in term of feeling more comfortable being placed in a curve among DO students on the COMLEX exam vs being placed in a curve among MD students on the USMLE. For these people, PDs are right to feel that DOs are inferior medical students relative to MDs.
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I'm pretty sure I know multiple people who knew what they wanted to match and where they wanted to match before year 3. My comment still stands, stop giving advice when you haven't even taken the exams yet.
 
jrlob91 said:
I'm pretty sure I know multiple people who knew what they wanted to match and where they wanted to match before year 3. My comment still stands, stop giving advice when you haven't even taken the exams yet.
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I don't need to take Step 1 to tell people to take the USMLE in order to make themselves more competitive in the new landscape 2020 and after. If you want to give bad advice by telling people to be complacent bc the COMLEX is a good substitute for the USMLE, you're wrong by multiple accounts of people who have taken both exams and matched to residencies.
 
Please, be respectful to your colleagues. I'm saying this in a nice way because it's an important concept: never look down on fellow medical students. You don't know their story. Some people study hard for usmle and just really struggle with it. It's not an easy test by any means. A lot of you assume you'll do fine on it but trust me, it's much harder than people realize. One of the smartest people in my class didn't take usmle; he was also military and didn't need it. He matched something very competitive.

Some people are lazy, sure. But some people try hard and it's just not enough.
 
68PGunner said:
I don't need to take Step 1 to tell people to take the USMLE in order to make themselves more competitive in the new landscape 2020 and after. If you want to give bad advice by telling people to be complacent bc the COMLEX is a good substitute for the USMLE, you're wrong by multiple accounts of people who have taken both exams and matched to residencies.
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I never said to be complacent, I said you don't know everyone's situation, so you are not qualified to give people that advice on such a forum.
 
68PGunner said:
Pure laziness and insecurity.
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i find insult in that. That is not the case for everyone! Like I said I was top of my class and I am far from lazy. My school told us we didn't need to take it. Of course now I know that's wrong but I didn't know any better. When you read on a programs website they take comlex you believe it. Naive maybe but not lazy! Please don't make rude comments when you don't know anyone situation. I could say the same thing about MD students let them take our test with the comlex portion and let's see how they do. The omm portion in my opinion wasn't the easiest part of the test and a lot of the questions are out of left field.
 
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Carbon090 said:
I swear every thread here sounds the same or has the same arguments.

Anyway, it depends on what specialty you want to go to and how competitive you want to me. IMO, just prepare for the USLME, work hard, do your best.
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Psych or neuro. Preferably in a location that has wifi. I would prefer not to be in the middle of nowhere. I'm considering forensic psychiatry lately and I'm told if you do a good residency, it makes you look better when you show up in court to give an opinion. So a nice-ish psych residency?
 
grapefruit17 said:
Assuming you're a first year who just finished, please don't start studying now and enjoy your summer. It's not worth it at all. Just enjoy yourself.
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I don't have any money to vacation or enjoy myself. My family is poor. I'd travel the world if I only had the money. Maybe my kids will get to be so lucky.


And I know after a week or two I'm going to be bored out of my skull. And by the time I get a job, summer will be mostly over. So I rather just learn. I drank from a firehose all year and had to compromise how well I learned things because of time constraints. Plus the more times you see things, the better chance of it entering long-term memory. And the easier it is to relearn, say a year from now. Plus I need to keep my base knowledge strong for year two.

I feel like I forgot a lot. Couldn't even read an EKG if I wanted to right now . . . And forgot a ton of anatomy.
 
cryhavoc said:
Or just those ones going for a competitive specialty?

I'm going to start studying this summer and want to make sure I'm prepping appropriately.
Click to expand...

I was told by multiple PDs during my residency interviews that they wouldn't have interviewed me if I hadn't taken the usmle 1.

The score conversion between comlex and usmle varies from PD to PD. Some will say a 600 is equivalent to a 230, others will say a 600 is equivalent to a 200. Better to just eliminate unfair conversions by taking the test.
 
cryhavoc said:
I don't have any money to vacation or enjoy myself. My family is poor. I'd travel the world if I only had the money. Maybe my kids will get to be so lucky.


And I know after a week or two I'm going to be bored out of my skull. And by the time I get a job, summer will be mostly over. So I rather just learn. I drank from a firehose all year and had to compromise how well I learned things because of time constraints. Plus the more times you see things, the better chance of it entering long-term memory. And the easier it is to relearn, say a year from now. Plus I need to keep my base knowledge strong for year two.

I feel like I forgot a lot. Couldn't even read an EKG if I wanted to right now . . . And forgot a ton of anatomy.
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you don't need that much money. I didn't have money either. just do local events, hang out with friends, and relax. Go to a gym, or use tinder. Something. I matched into an MD psych residency, university program. Studying summer of MS1 won't affect your chances of doing that as well lol
 
grapefruit17 said:
you don't need that much money. I didn't have money either. just do local events, hang out with friends, and relax. Go to a gym, or use tinder. Something. I matched into an MD psych residency, university program. Studying summer of MS1 won't affect your chances of doing that as well lol
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Grapefruit. You've been an SDN OG I've looked up to since the get go. You a real one!
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
The people I know who aren't take it are either people who won't likely do well on it, want to go into primary care, and military students who from what I understand have no disadvantages in not taking it.
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Don't know about your class, but these people just so happen to be the laziest ones at ours.
 
It's always hilarious when members of the most revered and accomplished profession have to be reminded to knock it off and quit making fun of each other, otherwise they will basically put on time out.
 
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