DO >>> Carib and all that

[ChrisMack390]

The one I've bolded would truly be sad. It takes a pretty evil letter writer to write you a bad LOR. Or at least a totally ignorant letter writer.

I'm not suggesting someone intentionally botched her chances, but it can be done unintentionally.

For example - we were hiring someone to work in our clinical research office, and someone's reference came back with many positive comments and one "weakness" which was that the person could sometimes be disorganized. I think the writer was attempting to give a candid, honest review, but ended up completely ruining her chance of getting the job (as strong organization skills are the single most important thing in clinical research jobs).

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[ChrisMack390]

Yeah those were her real stats lol she was good on paper but reading her PS and talking to her weekly does show her elite mentality (prob due to her stats) lol

This is another common sink - applying to only top programs because your stats are "good enough"

 

[Seth Joo]

Its already a well known fact that DO schools are much better than Caribbean schools, it has been that way for a long time. The numbers that the more well known Caribbean schools present to applicants forgets to mention the high attrition rates of their starting classes. A school like Ross fails out half its class before the clinical phase and other schools have attrition rates between 20 to 30 percent!!!

That being said I would not blanket all IMG/FMGs as inferior to DOs. Certainly not MDs from other English speaking countries like the UK, Australia, Ireland, Canada, Israel, etc. all are countries that have an excellent system of education. There are some programs out there that take IMGs but not DOs and vice versa. A friend of mine who did not get accepted into an MD program in North America went to Ireland and did extremely well in the match, he got into a top university residency program in Boston and his program never took a single DO. This is was three years ago though that he graduated, but I do not think things change that quickly. Then again this guy who went to Ireland had a 34 MCAT and a 3.7 GPA, he would have gotten into a US medical school but was not lucky, I think he would have been successful in a US MD school given his academic performance and stellar MCAT. I would say MDs from English speaking countries are on par or superior to MDs, which would place them above DOs.

 

[ChrisMack390]

There are great medical institutions outside of the US, like in Scotland, Australia, Germany, etc.

The Caribbean schools are a scam and are not among these.

 

[Monkitty]

First, I have no love for the Caribbean diploma mills.

Second, I have to say I'm a little shocked at the American-centric ego bouncing around here. Some people are acting like American MDs and American med schools are the end-all-be-all in the world. Undoubtedly we are good, in some respects best (research), but there are EXCELLENT doctors in most every country, that did not train in the US.

Just... some folks, check your ego a little bit. America isn't the center of the world.

 

[Grace184]

But..but...
MERRICA

Didn't the last few posts just point out other countries with great medical programs?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

First, I have no love for the Caribbean diploma mills.

Second, I have to say I'm a little shocked at the American-centric ego bouncing around here. Some people are acting like American MDs and American med schools are the end-all-be-all in the world. Undoubtedly we are good, in some respects best (research), but there are EXCELLENT doctors in most every country, that did not train in the US.

Just... some folks, check your ego a little bit. America isn't the center of the world.

We are talking about foreign schools that cater to American students that can't get j to MD/do programs. We aren't talking schools that cater to their own populations.

 

[Monkitty]

But..but...
MERRICA

Didn't the last few posts just point out other countries with great medical programs?

Prior to that there seemed to be a thread of "'MERICA!" that I picked up on. Though it's entirely possible I conceived that on my own.

We are talking about foreign schools that cater to American students that can't get j to MD/do programs. We aren't talking schools that cater to their own populations.

Then I supposed I misinterpreted some posts. As noted above, it seemed to me like the conversation was creeping towards celebrating "American exceptionalism".

I humbly apologize

 

[Seth Joo]

Caribbean schools are offshore schools that mimic the curriculum of US Allopathic schools, they are only foreign in that they do not have LCME accreditation and are located outside of the US. Their primary motive is to make as much as money possible.

There is a Caribbean school that opened a DO school in Colorado, the owner of the RVU owns AUC.

There are excellent institutions outside of the US in the countries I mentioned before, and these ones are as good as the top Allopathic institutions which would place them above DO schools.

 

[acapnial]

Caribbean schools are offshore schools that mimic the curriculum of US Allopathic schools, they are only foreign in that they do not have LCME accreditation and are located outside of the US. Their primary motive is to make as much as money possible.

There is a Caribbean school that opened a DO school in Colorado, the owner of the RVU owns AUC.

There are excellent institutions outside of the US in the countries I mentioned before, and these ones are as good as the top Allopathic institutions which would place them above DO schools.

Wait... are you saying that RVU is a branch campus of a caribbean school? Or that it's some kind of sister school to AUC because you think that RVU and AUC are owned by the same people (which they aren't).

 

[Seth Joo]

Wait... are you saying that RVU is a branch campus of a caribbean school? Or that it's some kind of sister school to AUC because you think that RVU and AUC are owned by the same people (which they aren't).

The Tien family owns AUC and RVU. They are both independent schools.

 

[acapnial]

The Tien family owns AUC and RVU. They are both independent schools.

Devry owns AUC and just one Tien owns RVU, not the entire family

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Yup, AUC was sold to Devry prior to launch of RVU.

 

[Seth Joo]

Yup, AUC was sold to Devry prior to launch of RVU.

The founder of AUC is Yife Tien, he is also the founder of RVU. You can look it up on RVU's website.

 

[acapnial]

The founder of AUC is Yife Tien, he is also the founder of RVU. You can look it up on RVU's website.

AUC was founded by Paul Tien

 

[ChrisMack390]

I have a friend who goes to RVU and absolutely loves it. They have also been killing it on USMLE/COMLEX scores and have solid match lists.

I'm very torn on whether to apply here or not. I really love Denver and the school appears to be doing great, but I just can't trust it's roots. Also, no resesrch is kind of a dealbreaker, though id imagine students are able to do something at one of the CUs or something if they wish.

@Goro I'm curious what you think of this place given your knowledge of osteopathic schools and disdain for for-profit universities.

 

[Goro]

Go and hold one's nose, if one has to. You may have noted that l rarely, if ever, recommend RVU.

I'll recommend RVU > CNU for right now.

I have a friend who goes to RVU and absolutely loves it. They have also been killing it on USMLE/COMLEX scores and have solid match lists.

I'm very torn on whether to apply here or not. I really love Denver and the school appears to be doing great, but I just can't trust it's roots. Also, no resesrch is kind of a dealbreaker, though id imagine students are able to do something at one of the CUs or something if they wish.

@Goro I'm curious what you think of this place given your knowledge of osteopathic schools and disdain for for-profit universities.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The founder of AUC is Yife Tien, he is also the founder of RVU. You can look it up on RVU's website.

I didn't argue against that.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Go and hold one's nose, if one has to. You may have noted that l rarely, if ever, recommend RVU.

I'll recommend RVU > CNU for right now.

Is your aversion purely based on the for-profit status, or do you have more concerns?

 

[Goro]

The for-profit thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Is your aversion purely based on the for-profit status, or do you have more concerns?

 

[gannicus89]

I started reading it out of curiosity. I started feeling bad for this guy because he seemed to have had decent scores and been motivated for the right reasons. Then I read this "I was offered an early acceptance to the following years class at Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine" and loss all sympathy because he was a *******.

What a horrifying tale...

 

[deleted158872]

Are for-profit US schools eligible for federal loans?

 

[IslandStyle808]

Are for-profit US schools eligible for federal loans?

Yes. In RVUs case, they had to graduate their first class before all students were eligible. Burrell's case is unusual, from the 2016 thread the school has stated it is eligible for federal loans in 2 years. Seems this has something to do with the for profit status.

 

[Seth Joo]

Go and hold one's nose, if one has to. You may have noted that l rarely, if ever, recommend RVU.

I'll recommend RVU > CNU for right now.

I strongly disagree, always go MD if given the chance. California is known as a very MD centric state anyway that biased towards MDs much like my home state Massachusetts, its always best to swim with the current than against it. CNU might have some kinks right now but they will be worked out real quick, and from the looks of it their facilities look excellent.

 

[Gandyy]

I strongly disagree, always go MD if given the chance. California is known as a very MD centric state anyway that biased towards MDs much like my home state Massachusetts, its always best to swim with the current than against it. CNU might have some kinks right now but they will be worked out real quick, and from the looks of it their facilities look excellent.

Seth Joo, arent you a DO student though?

 

[becomingdoctor]

Yes. In RVUs case, they had to graduate their first class before all students were eligible. Burrell's case is unusual, from the 2016 thread the school has stated it is eligible for federal loans in 2 years. Seems this has something to do with the for profit status.

BCOM is fast b/c it's backed by a major university. Just like no one worried about UCR. The process for stand alone school like ruv and cnu is very different.

 

[Seth Joo]

Seth Joo, arent you a DO student though?

I am a DO student, but my feet are firmly planted to the ground, and I do not believe in any AOA propaganda. I think like a consumer, and I want the most value for my dollars, the AOA runs like a business as well, looking to make money. That is why you see DO schools open up multiple branch campuses like McDonalds's franchises.

To date I believe only two MD schools have branch campuses, Duke has one in Singapore and Cornell has one in Qatar, both cater to the local populations in those countries and neither admit US students.

Believe it or not many faculty at DO schools do not like the expansion of branch campuses, its the administrative big wigs and the AOA executives that push the expansion, but the faculty themselves cringe at this.

 

[IslandStyle808]

BCOM is fast b/c it's backed by a major university. Just like no one worried about UCR. The process for stand alone school like ruv and cnu is very different.

Right but MUCOM had their federal aid from class one, since it was tied to a university that has graduated classes of students AND is non-profit. If Burrell wasn't for profit, it would have been the same.

A stand alone school needs to graduate one class before it can receive federal aid. This is how it works for medical school at least.

 

[Goro]

One could argue that the state schools have branches. Think IU, U MN or U IL.

I am a DO student, but my feet are firmly planted to the ground, and I do not believe in any AOA propaganda. I think like a consumer, and I want the most value for my dollars, the AOA runs like a business as well, looking to make money. That is why you see DO schools open up multiple branch campuses like McDonalds's franchises.

To date I believe only two MD schools have branch campuses, Duke has one in Singapore and Cornell has one in Qatar, both cater to the local populations in those countries and neither admit US students.

Believe it or not many faculty at DO schools do not like the expansion of branch campuses, its the administrative big wigs and the AOA executives that push the expansion, but the faculty themselves cringe at this.

 

[deleted158872]

Yes. In RVUs case, they had to graduate their first class before all students were eligible. Burrell's case is unusual, from the 2016 thread the school has stated it is eligible for federal loans in 2 years. Seems this has something to do with the for profit status.

how do you know that? BCOM doesn't state anywhere on their website that they're for-profit

 

[Seth Joo]

One could argue that the state schools have branches. Think IU, U MN or U IL.

Its not the same, state schools have created different campuses out of the need to serve their constituent populations. What DO schools have done is completely reckless and much of it out of financial motive. There are several DO schools that have more than two branch campuses which makes them more like McDonalds franchises than legit institutions of higher learning.

There are a lot of faculty who oppose the expansion of new schools, its mostly administration and the AOA who are gung ho about opening up new schools, lets face it the AOA is a corporate money making enterprise. The faculty on the other hand are getting the short end of the stick, they are not making money. The CEO of AZCOM earns EIGHT times in salary what an associate professor in basic science earns, another point of contention is that faculty salaries tend to be lower at DO schools than at larger MD schools.

Faculty remain silent for fear of retaliation from administration.

In my opinion the best run branch campuses right now are ATSU-SOMA, AZCOM, and Western U - Oregon.

I get very nervous when I hear about DO schools like Liberty University, I read their charter, now that is scary.

 

[IslandStyle808]

wow, they don't state anywhere on their website that they're for-profit

There was one page where they were being indirect about it when discussing tuition

http://bcomnm.org/giving/

"BCOM will do all of this in addition to fulfilling its overall mission of educating, diversifying and placing new physicians in the Southwest. And doing so at a tuition cost below many of its not for profit peers (see below) and evaluated and accredited by the same commission as all osteopathic medical schools."



This news paper article states it is for-profit.

http://www.bizjournals.com/albuquer...makes-multi-million-dollar-investment-in.html

 

[deleted158872]

Good catch!

 

[Seth Joo]

There was one page where they were being indirect about it when discussing tuition

http://bcomnm.org/giving/

"BCOM will do all of this in addition to fulfilling its overall mission of educating, diversifying and placing new physicians in the Southwest. And doing so at a tuition cost below many of its not for profit peers (see below) and evaluated and accredited by the same commission as all osteopathic medical schools."



This news paper article states it is for-profit.

http://www.bizjournals.com/albuquer...makes-multi-million-dollar-investment-in.html

Now that is weird, a state school for profit DO school? Now this is why I am so against the expansion of new DO schools. Its particularly bad when existing DO schools open up branch campuses, they could use that money instead to upgrade their existing campuses, fund research, open a teaching hospital, things that would improve the reputation and standing of the existing school and benefit the current students and faculty. Of course give the faculty better salaries as well which would help with retention.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Now that is weird, a state school for profit DO school? Now this is why I am so against the expansion of new DO schools. Its particularly bad when existing DO schools open up branch campuses, they could use that money instead to upgrade their existing campuses, fund research, open a teaching hospital, things that would improve the reputation and standing of the existing school and benefit the current students and faculty. Of course give the faculty better salaries as well which would help with retention.

It's a privately funded school with a partnership to NMSU (not under the school). Yeah I hear you. The school is actually trying to help set up residencies in the area, which was kind of a shocker. Not sure when the GME programs will be up and running.

 

[becomingdoctor]

Now that is weird, a state school for profit DO school? Now this is why I am so against the expansion of new DO schools. Its particularly bad when existing DO schools open up branch campuses, they could use that money instead to upgrade their existing campuses, fund research, open a teaching hospital, things that would improve the reputation and standing of the existing school and benefit the current students and faculty. Of course give the faculty better salaries as well which would help with retention.

Money is everything, MD schools have steady funding from the government, research, donation etc., but DO schools don't. However, those people gotta make money from somewhere right? As tuition is the main resource of the income for most DO schools, expanding class size, building more campus (taking advantage of the reputation of the existing campus) is a classical business strategy. I argue the entire MD/DO difference does not deserve two separate educational organizations in terms of the content they teach and their philosophy they believe. But creating an different entity is a lucrative business. It's the same theory as two gas stations at one intersection are usually belong to different companies.

 

[Seth Joo]

Money is everything, MD schools have steady funding from the government, research, donation etc., but DO schools don't. However, those people gotta make money from somewhere right? As tuition is the main resource of the income for most DO schools, expanding class size, building more campus (taking advantage of the reputation of the existing campus) is a classical business strategy. I argue the entire MD/DO difference does not deserve two separate educational organizations in terms of the content they teach and their philosophy they believe. But creating an different entity is a lucrative business. It's the same theory as two gas stations at one intersection are usually belong to different companies.

The CEO of AZCOM earns a whopping 600k a year, has a private jet that takes her anywhere she wants, an expense account, Midwestern University, has a very large annual turnover, around 228 million in 2012 alone. I think LECOM's CEO makes similar income.

DO schools are not poor, don't let the fact that they do not get NIH funding fool you these schools make serious money. The administrators and the folks at the AOA are making $$$$$, its the faculty that are toiling for small paychecks and the students paying high fees and getting small return on their investment.

DO schools have much lower overhead than MD schools, most of them do not have teaching hospitals for instance, most DO schools assign their students to various hospitals and clinics during years 3 and 4 on a voluntary basis.

Its rather amazing how an administrator like Dr. Goeppinger, the CEO of Midwestern University jets around in her own private jet while many of my professors struggle to make payments on their cars and mortgages. Many professors live in fear of the administration, I think the situation is no different at many other schools.

 

[AlteredScale]

Its not the same, state schools have created different campuses out of the need to serve their constituent populations. What DO schools have done is completely reckless and much of it out of financial motive. There are several DO schools that have more than two branch campuses which makes them more like McDonalds franchises than legit institutions of higher learning.

There are a lot of faculty who oppose the expansion of new schools, its mostly administration and the AOA who are gung ho about opening up new schools, lets face it the AOA is a corporate money making enterprise. The faculty on the other hand are getting the short end of the stick, they are not making money. The CEO of AZCOM earns EIGHT times in salary what an associate professor in basic science earns.

Faculty remain silent for fear of retaliation from administration.

In my opinion the best run branch campuses right now are ATSU-SOMA, AZCOM, and Western U - Oregon.

I get very nervous when I hear about DO schools like Liberty University, I read their charter, now that is scary.

I do agree with the concern for expansion. Especially when I saw that NYIT-COM was considering (and I believe has approval) to build a branch campus in ARKANSAS. IMO, that makes no sense and there should be a much more stringent pathway towards this type of expansion.

The only branch campus that has been approved so far that makes me not roll my eyes is the KCU Joplin Campus which IMO works out as thed have had two hospitals partner with them in Joplin (Joplin Mercy, Freeman Health System) for clinical training for 3rd year. These types of partnerships within the city support the mission of the campus. The generation of residency programs in the area should also help keep grads in the area.

The only two things I am worried about are 1) will admissions be adherent to screening applicants towards their familiarity and/or residency in Joplin in order to protect its mission (such as UCR or SIU) and 2) will the class size be kept down in order to allow for a high faculty-to-student ratio. Especially if they are trying top pipeline PCP's in the area.

 

[Seth Joo]

I do agree with the concern for expansion. Especially when I saw that NYIT-COM was considering (and I believe has approval) to build a branch campus in ARKANSAS. IMO, that makes no sense and there should be a much more stringent pathway towards this type of expansion.

The only branch campus that has been approved so far that makes me not roll my eyes is the KCU Joplin Campus which IMO works out as thed have had two hospitals partner with them in Joplin (Joplin Mercy, Freeman Health System) for clinical training for 3rd year. These types of partnerships within the city support the mission of the campus. The generation of residency programs in the area should also help keep grads in the area.

The only two things I am worried about are 1) will admissions be adherent to screening applicants towards their familiarity and/or residency in Joplin in order to protect its mission (such as UCR or SIU) and 2) will the class size be kept down in order to allow for a high faculty-to-student ratio. Especially if they are trying top pipeline PCP's in the area.

AZCOM has very high turnover with regards to its basic science faculty, its because many professors jump ship and go to better paying universities. I looked up the salary data for full time associate professors at my school and it was a fraction of what professors earned at my undergraduate university. I thought it was appalling given its a medical school, but I saw professor salaries at many DO schools to be quite low compared to many MD institutions, at the MD school where I got my undergraduate degree the median professor salary is over 250k a year.

I was examining my school's balance sheet and its making some serious cash.

This despite administrators making 600k+ a year!!! Ridiculous.

 

[AlteredScale]

AZCOM has very high turnover with regards to its basic science faculty, its because many professors jump ship and go to better paying universities. I looked up the salary date for full time associate professors at my school and it was a fraction of what professors earned at my undergraduate university. I thought it was appalling given its a medical school, but I saw professor salaries at many DO schools to be quite low compared to many MD institutions, at the MD school where I got my undergraduate degree the median professor salary is over 200k a year.

UC San Diego pays their professors very nicely, especially in the Health Sciences area. I would say many of the basic science professors at MD inst. get a better compensation because many of them have duties as PI's in addition to their lecture duties.

You don't think cost of living (especially since most research intensive MD programs are in big cities) would have anything to do with the increase in pay?

 

[Seth Joo]

UC San Diego pays their professors very nicely, especially in the Health Sciences area. I would say many of the basic science professors at MD inst. get a better compensation because many of them have duties as PI's in addition to their lecture duties.

You don't think cost of living (especially since most research intensive MD programs are in big cities) would have anything to do with the increase in pay?

I looked up a few DO schools located near major metro areas and they also paid their professors some rather low salaries as well.

Another thing to note about the MD schools is that the professors also get grants for research as well, at the MD school where I got my undergraduate some of these grants were worth millions of dollars.

 

[AlteredScale]

I looked up a few DO schools located near major metro areas and they also paid their professors some rather low salaries as well.

It's gotta be the fact then that a large university just has more money in the pot than a lot of private DO programs.

 

[Seth Joo]

It's gotta be the fact then that a large university just has more money in the pot than a lot of private DO programs.

I do not know about that, Midwestern University is actually very rich for a school with only two campuses, its annual turnover is over $228 million, they are flush with money. I was surprised that faculty salaries here are actually lower than that of my professors at my undergraduate university, in fact less than half of what my undergraduate professors earn. It boggles my mind that someone with a Phd in Biochemisty earns less than a Humanities professor but this world makes no sense.

Clinical faculty at DO schools work as volunteers, they get no compensation at all, while clinical faculty at Allopathic schools are very well paid.

It doesn't surprise me why I keep seeing new faces at my school all the time.

 

[AlteredScale]

I do not know about that, Midwestern University is actually very rich for a school with only two campuses, its annual turnover is over $228 million, they are flush with money. I was surprised that faculty salaries here are actually lower than that of my professors at my undergraduate university, in fact less than half of what my undergraduate professors earn. It boggles my mind that someone with a Phd in Biochemisty earns less than a Humanities professor but this world makes no sense.

Clinical faculty at DO schools work as volunteers, they get no compensation at all, while clinical faculty at Allopathic schools are very well paid.

It doesn't surprise me why I keep seeing new faces at my school all the time.

Very depressing to hear that? :/ KCU seems to keep their profs with them and I would say a big part of that is strong compensation.

But competition is fierce and the highest bidder always wins. I'm perplexed as to why Midwestern would be so meager with their pay grades for profs.

 

[becomingdoctor]

UC San Diego pays their professors very nicely, especially in the Health Sciences area. I would say many of the basic science professors at MD inst. get a better compensation because many of them have duties as PI's in addition to their lecture duties.

You don't think cost of living (especially since most research intensive MD programs are in big cities) would have anything to do with the increase in pay?

Actually UCSD doesn't pay their clinician very well. I just did a quick search on ucpay org for their neurosurgical staff, and most of them are under 400k, which is like poverty for neurosurgeons. Linda Liau from UCLA made over 1 million in 2013!

 

[AlteredScale]

Actually UCSD doesn't pay their clinician very well. I just did a quick search on ucpay org for their neurosurgical staff, and most of them are under 400k, which is like poverty for neurosurgeons. Linda Liau from UCLA made over 1 million in 2013!

Poverty? I think 400-600K is a fairly decent amount for a normal attending surgeon no? 1 million is a rarity especially in academic medicine if you are talking base compensation as strictly a clinician.

When you do a research of Dr. Liau her REGULAR (base compensation) pay is around 300K she has almost 400K in NIH funds (two R01's). You can count that she has other research funding from other orgs since she is a part of the cancer research center. That will end up being around 1million in gross pay.

The only people making millions at UCSD are department chairs, vice-chancellors, president, PI's who are actually on multiple grant awards, etc etc.

A search of multiple neurosurgeon faculty at UCLA (assistant to full professor, excluding leadership positions) also show between 200 - 600K for compensation.

As someone who actually worked within UCSD and UCSD health sciences administration I know pay rates for professors with a based compensation at 500K is unlikely for any attending physician or research scientist unless they are in a leadership role.

 

[becomingdoctor]

Poverty? I think 400-600K is a fairly decent amount for a normal attending surgeon no? 1 million is a rarity especially in academic medicine if you are talking base compensation as strictly a clinician.

When you do a research of Dr. Liau her REGULAR (base compensation) pay is around 300K she has almost 400K in NIH funds (two R01's). You can count that she has other research funding from other orgs since she is a part of the cancer research center. That will end up being around 1million in gross pay.

The only people making millions at UCSD are department chairs, vice-chancellors, president, PI's who are actually on multiple grant awards, etc etc.

A search of multiple neurosurgeon faculty at UCLA (assistant to full professor, excluding leadership positions) also show between 200 - 600K for compensation.

As someone who actually worked within UCSD and UCSD health sciences administration I know pay rates for professors with a based compensation at 500K is unlikely for any attending physician or research scientist unless they are in a leadership role.


View attachment 194972View attachment 194973View attachment 194971

Neuro usually makes more than most of other surgical specialties, <300k several years out of training is very low. Their practice practice counterparts can go pass half million very easy with same amount of workload and pressure.

 

[Seth Joo]

Actually UCSD doesn't pay their clinician very well. I just did a quick search on ucpay org for their neurosurgical staff, and most of them are under 400k, which is like poverty for neurosurgeons. Linda Liau from UCLA made over 1 million in 2013!

You should do some research before you open your mouth, academic salaries are supposed to be lower than professional salaries, but salaries at DO institutions are much lower than MD institutions, you can look up the numbers at DO schools doing a Google search, you can find out that the salaries of professors at DO schools are not particularly impressive.

A Basic Science professor at the MD school at the university where I got my undergraduate degree on average earns $250k a year, and that does not include the massive amounts of grants these people get per year. You also forget many of these clinical staff also get grants on top of their salaries as well, so they really get a lot more money.

I did a search of DO basic science associate professor salary data from schools located near major cities and saw they were only a fraction of many MD schools, it does not surprise that many DO schools have a lot turnover when it comes to faculty, many professors remain for a short period of time and move on to greener pastures when they get a chance, or they hire people they know do not have many other options (ie foreigners with visa issues who cannot leave).



All this despite the fact that administrator salaries keep climbing up and up.

 

[kalat]

@Seth Joo I can't be bothered to piece out everything you've said in this thread, but please stop referring to federal grants as if they were personal income. I don't know anyone who has ever even looked at a research lab think that (and you shouldn't because it's completely misguided). Institutions take much of the money and place guidelines on its use (in addition to federal restrictions). Non-clinical faculty making over 200K a year is also reserved for high performers and leadership roles. It's not typical at any "normal" school.

 

[Seth Joo]

@Seth Joo I can't be bothered to piece out everything you've said in this thread, but please stop referring to federal grants as if they were personal income. I don't know anyone who has ever even looked at a research lab think that (and you shouldn't because it's completely misguided). Institutions take much of the money and place guidelines on its use (in addition to federal restrictions). Non-clinical faculty making over 200K a year is also reserved for high performers and leadership roles. It's not typical at any "normal" school.

I can tell you that my professors at my Ivy League school used their grant money for their own personal use, including purchasing homes, sending their kids to school, buying cars, homes, whatever, and the grants were in the seven figures. Being a professor at an Ivy League institution is a big thing and a ticket to a very good life. They did not just necessarily use it to do their research as we might put it.

It is a very far cry from being a professor at a DO school. I know many of my professors would jump if Harvard gave them a call.