DO - Degree Change ...

[Red Beard]

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i have already sent a petition with my faculty advisor and classmates...why the hell should a DO who had lets say a 25 on their mcat, 3.2 gpa, no research, poor credentials be awarded an MD just because they completed an MD residency......i had to bust my *** studying and doing well to get where i am today, thats bulls**t

Wow.

I always thought Darmouth students were generally pretty good with reading comprehension, reasoning, and clarity of thought😕

 

[ctdocMD]

Calm down before you give yourself an aneurysm, those are some pretty low stats. I know my stats aren't near those listed and I turned down an MD school to go DO. In fact I personally know of a guy with a 42 that turned down full ride scholarships at several MD schools to go to a DO school. If you want to look at some MD stats, I know of a few people with 25-26's and one with a 21 that got into my state school. But this isn't about a stat war. You need to do more research before you start flaming and sending out petitions. This proposition would not convert all MD's to MDDO's. Only the MD's who want to learn OMM and attend an Osteopathic residency would become M.D.,D.O.'s.

no this is about DO's getting awarded MD, DO degree for completing allopathic residencies

 

[Buckeye4life]

. . .

 

[coffeebythelake]

Wow.

I always thought Darmouth students were generally pretty good with reading comprehension, reasoning, and clarity of thought😕

Weak. Instead of ad hominem attacks against people who disagree with your POV, perhaps you can explain your reasoning how the D.O./M.D. designation would make you a better doctor.

 

[bkpa2med]

I'll ignore the underlying condescension and agree with you. I should not be awarded a degree I did not earn. Schools grant degrees, not licensing exams or residencies.

Don't hate when my license plates say MD on it instead of scum of the earth DO

Gotta love NYC👍

 

[REM12]

I'm sorry guys, but I'm yet to hear a cohesive, well informed argument that tells me that any of this will benefit either current DOs or OMSs. I can't help but think that this is all a thinly veiled "I really wanted to be an MD" argument. If someone can actually show how these proposed changes will benefit our profession, by all means let me know.

And please show me a direct correlation between MCAT scores and quality of patient care.

 

[J1515]

Weak. Instead of ad hominem attacks against people who disagree with your POV, perhaps you can explain your reasoning how the D.O./M.D. designation would make you a better doctor.

<disclaimer - I'm a DO>

Nobody can explain it. I've demanded an explanation now on every single thread pertaining to this nonsense and it gets ignored. The ironic thing is, if they did combine the degrees and all of a sudden competition to DO schools increased, a lot of these DO pre-meds and students who are MD rejects whining about their letters would end up without an acceptance to ANY school (MD or DO). They wouldn't be able to become a physician, period. But these people don't realize that. All they care about is the letters.

 

[Red Beard]

Instead of ad hominem attacks against people who disagree with your POV, perhaps you can explain your reasoning how the D.O./M.D. designation would make you a better doctor.

That's not my contention and I think if you read my posts its pretty clear. I've said repeatedly on here that I personally don't care about degree intitials.

As for my 'attack'...I've known two Dartmouth grads, and interacted with one student here. The former were highly capable of having a rational discussion and were all around great people. It would be unfair for me to start making generalizations based on my interaction here with ctdocMD, wouldn't it? In return, I'd appreciate it he/she would refrain from slinging unsubstantiated and over-generalized crap about DO MCATs and stats.

EDIT: I'm unsubscribing from this thread (have to focus on studying), if you want to reply to me or have any further discussion with me, you can PM me.

 

[Iquitos]

no this is about DO's getting awarded MD, DO degree for completing allopathic residencies

Actually, from what I understand every DO would be granted the MDDO degree regardless of which residency they complete. Among other things, this would allow DO's to practice in a broad international field. Obviously there are some legitimate reasons behind this initiative (not just a bunch of bickering on online boards) or the AMA and the AOA would not be wasting their precious time on it.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

i have already sent a petition with my faculty advisor and classmates...why the hell should a DO who had lets say a 25 on their mcat, 3.2 gpa, no research, poor credentials be awarded an MD just because they completed an MD residency......i had to bust my *** studying and doing well to get where i am today, thats bulls**t

Your the one making a very BS generalization here. There are DOs and MDs who have strong credentials and some who have poor credentials. Dont get on your high horse, and act as if an allopathic school is synonymous with greater overall success--it is an individual endeavor. If an applicant to a residency has the credentials to get into a good residency, then it doesnt matter if they are a DO or MD.

San Juan Sun: I assume you are selecting for an AOA residency, so I would make the argument that generally the better DO applicants (at least better in board scores and grades) are applying to ACGME residencies instead of AOA residencies, even if its a moderately competitive residency. 51% of AOA residencies were unfilled last year(or this year) based on a recent JAOA article. This indicates a significant portion of DO grads are applying for and getting ACGME residencies. As ctdocmd has failed to see, and as DOanethesia so clearly pointed out earlier, these DO applicants are getting these residencies over other MD applicants, because these residencies see these applicants as being better qualified.

 

[Iquitos]

Your the one making a very BS generalization here. There are DOs and MDs who have strong credentials and some who have poor credentials. Dont get on your high horse, and act as if an allopathic school is synonymous with greater overall success--it is an individual endeavor. If an applicant to a residency has the credentials to get into a good residency, then it doesnt matter if they are a DO or MD.

San Juan Sun: I assume you are selecting for an AOA residency, so I would make the argument that generally the better DO applicants (at least better in board scores and grades) are applying to ACGME residencies instead of AOA residencies, even if its a moderately competitive residency. 51% of AOA residencies were unfilled last year(or this year) based on a recent JAOA article. This indicates a significant portion of DO grads are applying for and getting ACGME residencies. As ctdocmd has failed to see, and as DOanethesia so clearly pointed out earlier, these DO applicants are getting these residencies over other MD applicants, because these residencies see these applicants as being better qualified.

👍

 

[DannMann99]

It makes sense to me for a few reasons.

1) It essentially removes any need to push for international practice rights. (saves time, and money, and possibly a few headaches).

2) People dedicated to the DO calling can remain that way, you dont have to be MD's or MD, DO's... people dedicated to MD can remain that way as well.

3) It will be even across the board, as in: not just DO's will become MD DO's. (fair)

4) It will bring the two branches of medicine closer, though they're both essentially the same branches of medicine to begin with....
(omm)

People keep saying they're no valid arguements for the change. I'm fine whether they change it or not, i'm just saying it does make sense in some situations.

 

[coffeebythelake]

People keep saying they're no valid arguements for the change. I'm fine whether they change it or not, i'm just saying it does make sense in some situations.

Reason 1 seems like a way to circumvent rules in other countries. Reasons 2 and 3 aren't reasons. Reason 4... maybe...

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

San Juan Sun: I assume you are selecting for an AOA residency, so I would make the argument that generally the better DO applicants (at least better in board scores and grades) are applying to ACGME residencies instead of AOA residencies, even if its a moderately competitive residency.

To be clear, I am not selecting applicants. I'm merely a resident who was invited to help go through applications.

As for your argument, I think it totally depends on the specialty. So what if 51% particpate in the allo match? That's only about half. I highly doubt that this half is more competitive as a whole than the other. In any case,the whole point of bringing this up was to dispel the notion that a majority of osteopathic medical students are spectacular. Simply put, most are average. It's one thing to be an osteopathic cheerleader, but let's not go so far as to make radical new policy based on a misguided belief that (Stuart Smalley voice) we're good enough, and we're smart enough, and that people like us.

But to get back to the point I've made several times: can anyone provide an explanation as to why allowing MDs to do AOA residencies helps DOs?

 

[Iquitos]

To be clear, I am not selecting applicants. I'm merely a resident who was invited to help go through applications.

As for your argument, I think it totally depends on the specialty. So what if 51% particpate in the allo match? That's only about half. I highly doubt that this half is more competitive as a whole than the other. In any case,the whole point of bringing this up was to dispel the notion that a majority of osteopathic medical students are spectacular. Simply put, most are average. It's one thing to be an osteopathic cheerleader, but let's not go so far as to make radical new policy based on a misguided belief that (Stuart Smalley voice) we're good enough, and we're smart enough, and that people like us.

But to get back to the point I've made several times: can anyone provide an explanation as to why allowing MDs to do AOA residencies helps DOs?

I would imagine filling Osteopathic residencies with MD's would allow more of them to stay open and not be closed due to lack of participation/funding. The longer the residencies go unfilled the more likely they are to be closed. Now whether opening the gate for MD's will actually help these programs fill to capacity could be debated. However, the increase in class size enrollment to MD and DO schools that will occur in the next 8 or so years could potentially drive more people into these residencies.

 

[Buckeye4life]

In any case,the whole point of bringing this up was to dispel the notion that a majority of osteopathic medical students are spectacular. Simply put, most are average. It's one thing to be an osteopathic cheerleader, but let's not go so far as to make radical new policy based on a misguided belief that (Stuart Smalley voice) we're good enough, and we're smart enough, and that people like us.

go DO go!!!!

That's seriously sad you think that lowly of DO graduates abilities and potential.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I would imagine filling Osteopathic residencies with MD's would allow more of them to stay open and not be closed due to lack of participation/funding. The longer the residencies go unfilled the more likely they are to be closed. Now whether opening the gate for MD's will actually help these programs fill to capacity could be debated. However, the increase in class size enrollment to MD and DO schools that will occur in the next 8 or so years could potentially drive more people into these residencies.

If DOs don't want to go after the Traditional Rotating and Family Medicine AOA spots (the most common type of unfilled positions), why would we expect MD students to do so?

BTW, nice quote by Elder Nelson.

 

[Iquitos]

If DOs don't want to go after the Traditional Rotating and Family Medicine AOA spots (the most common type of unfilled positions), why would we expect MD students to do so?

BTW, nice quote by Elder Nelson.

I suppose supply and demand since there will be an increase in enrollment, but like I said, this could be debated. I haven't heard of any call for an increase in residency spots either ACGME or AOA, just a call for increase slots at medical schools.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

If DOs don't want to go after the Traditional Rotating and Family Medicine AOA spots (the most common type of unfilled positions), why would we expect MD students to do so?

BTW, nice quote by Elder Nelson.

Talking with faculty a couple hours ago, I was told the same thing abt the unfilled spots. I was also told in terms of number of residency spots they are a small percentage compared with dual accredited spots. I was also told that an MD today could pursue OMT training via certain DO schools if they were interested, and it is a RARE phenomenon to have an MD do this.

I for one dont think this is a good idea. At least I don't really see any benefit to the DO profession. I really dont see it being accepted by the profession as a whole either.

 

[ctdocMD]

i just dont see how all of you fail to see my point. DO and MD should not be mixed, well thats my estimation. there is a reason why they are both different and i believe they should stay different. thats it. sure, DO's participate in MD residencies but they did not get their degree of medicine from residency...they earned it from med school. thats how it should stay. as i said, i worked to get where i am today, no offense but it would have been an easier route if i went DO and knew that eventually one day MDs and DOs could have the same title MD,DO...do you see my point?

 

[DannMann99]

there is a reason why they are both different and i believe they should stay different.

Outside of OMT. How do they differ?

Just

 

[DannMann99]

there is a reason why they are both different and i believe they should stay different.

Outside of OMT. How do they differ?

 

[ShyRem]

Wow, ct. just... wow. I am... dumbfounded.

As for OMM being taught to MDs --- didn't y'all know HARVARD has an OMM summer intensive course for MDs, taught by DOs, that is consistently packed with a waitlist? But then again, I'm a proponent for a combined match; I also think that if MDs want to take the OMM intensive course they should be allowed into AOA residencies with USMLE scores. After all, DOs want to be allowed into ACGME residencies with COMLEX scores.




Now I'm going to put on my "mod" hat and remind y'all that if this thread degenerates I will not hesitate to bring out the paddle. It's gotten close a couple of times (you know who you are). Play nice. I won't say it twice. Remember what your momma said: treat others as you would expect them to treat you. And if you don't have something nice to say (or at least said in a non-nasty way), don't say anything at all. I remind you to see Lee's notice regarding MD v. DO threads.

I can't believe I have to say that to people who are in school to be professionals.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Actually it might. I thought it wouldn't happen either, but apparently the AMA and the AOA have a joint proposition on this issue. From what I understand, the proposition is to allow MD's to enter osteopathic residencies and possibly change the DO credentials to M.D.,D.O. The AOA is actually coming to the students to ask their opinion about the issue. I attended a meeting with our class presidency who will report our ideas to the AOA at a national meeting.

I also have a buddy that was in that meeting, he echoed what you said about the AMA actually starting the talks with the AOA and he said something about AMA helping with OMM research and scientifically validating it. If there were a change in initials it would be MD DO.

 

[UCFMOP]

Ct,

Your responses smack of elitism that I suspected was at med school, but didnt know it was exaggerated by the "Ivy" attitude of "Hey wait I want to walk around and say, 'Look Im a MD, a REAL doctor. Not like that shmuck over there who got a D.O'" Hey buddy I just read the paper today and on the front page it says "DO AND MDS ARE BOTH PHYSICANS, UPSETS DARTMOUTH STUDENT"

 

[EastWestN2grt]

i just dont see how all of you fail to see my point. DO and MD should not be mixed, well thats my estimation. there is a reason why they are both different and i believe they should stay different. thats it. sure, DO's participate in MD residencies but they did not get their degree of medicine from residency...they earned it from med school. thats how it should stay. as i said, i worked to get where i am today, no offense but it would have been an easier route if i went DO and knew that eventually one day MDs and DOs could have the same title MD,DO...do you see my point?

I am going to stay very mild in my response to this, first of all because 'Mama' is watching, but more so because this above response makes me realize that like many MD students (and I guess I should say many in the American public) you dont really understand what a DO is, or at least have misconceptions about the DO degree.

First, I agree that there should remain a distinction between the two degrees. I have in the past used the analogy of luxury cars -Meredes and BMW = MD and DO; it is better for consumers that there is a choice. With that said, I want to tell you that you should REALLY research what the DO profession is about, before you stick your foot in your mouth in the future when it might be professionally bad for you--like saying the above statement to your attending or chief who is a DO. Osteopathic physicians are deeply ingrained through every aspect of medicine, at EVERY level of medicine, this may be a surprise to you but there has even been a DO Surgeon General of the Army. 1 of 5 med students now are DO students, so your lack of exposure to the profession I guarantee will be changed shortly. Probably when you begin rotations next year.

Did you realize that all of those classes you are taking in medical school are EXACTLY the same classes we DO students take, except we also have to take OMT classes. That is the only difference. Im begging you! Research the DO profession. Look online, dont make judgements based on whatever bias or prejudice you might have about a profession that is your complete equal.

Finally if you cant get over your own biases, realize that the leaders in the allopathic community ie. AMA, understand the similarities between the degrees ALOT more than you, and are the ones who are involved in this proposition. The AMA understands DO = MDs( - OMT), if this wasnt true as you mistakenly believe there would be no way the AMA would be involved in something like this.

Mama, I have been nice......


On a sidenote to my fellow DO students/DOs, it is moments like this whether it be an allopathic student or ignorant patient that I start to think the MD, DO degree may not be a bad thing. Especially if it stops the seemingly never ending ignorance out there --follow in the steps of the founder --you know, Andrew T. Still MD, DO.... we shall see..

 

[DocFox]

i worked to get where i am today, no offense but it would have been an easier route if i went DO

You're right I was just picked up on the street by my DO school, I didn't work AT ALL to get to where I am...

With your reasoning the MD students at Washington University S.L., Harvard, Yale, and UCSF should get an even different degree from the one you are getting from "lowly Dartmouth". Let's make it M.D.!. The exclamation represents that they worked harder than you to get where they are and they don't want to have to get the same degree as you.

Okay, but seriously, congrats on going to a damn good medical school. Get over yourself though. You are probably going to be colleagues with a DO and *gasp* maybe even have an attending that's a DO. I dare you to speak up then.

 

[Ki45toryu]

i have already sent a petition with my faculty advisor and classmates...why the hell should a DO who had lets say a 25 on their mcat, 3.2 gpa, no research, poor credentials be awarded an MD just because they completed an MD residency......i had to bust my *** studying and doing well to get where i am today, thats bulls**t

Wow...someone is showing their true colors.

Lets not go down this route and get this thread locked aight? Everyone in medical school worked very hard to get into medical school....and you know full well that if an MD or a DO is in a residency, they had to work hard in medical school to get into that residency.

And for the record, I don't want a change either....but lets not make this a urinating contest OK?

 

[DocFox]

As far as benefits for the degree change, I think that it would help with opening up international practice rights and distinguishing us from DOs in all other countries that are "osteopaths" and just do manipulation. It shows that we are fully licensed, capable physicians in places that don't know what we are.

Also it would attract more (& better?) students to DO schools that otherwise might want to go international. Not that there is anything wrong with that but keeping people in the US would probably be easier on those students (for many reasons).

To be clear I have no problem with the DO degree but I won't fight to keep it. Let DOs that want to use the MD, DO distinction use it and those that don't shouldn't have to. No big deal right?

I also agree that opening up DO residencies might make it harder for DOs to get certain positions but think that's a selfish reason. Residencies that really incorporate OMM should favor DOs because they already know OMM or be persuaded by MD students that want to train their that they are motivated to learning and applying OMM and will do the training. Other than that pick the best applicant and judge students on their own merits, with school prestige ratings being pretty low on the list.

Just my thoughts.

 

[endocardium]

Honestly, don't give ctdocMD any more of your time and energy by responding to his or her nonsense. We don't need to defend ourselves at all and we especially don't need to defend our choice. Don't feed 'em; it just makes 'em more hungry. Bigotry sucks, but as evidenced by this thread (specifically, ctdocMD's posts), it most certainly exists. Some people just don't like what is different than their own.

Anyway, it's amazing how much stock we put into a degree, for goodness sake. Is it the degree that defines the quality of care provided, or the moment-to-moment actions themselves of those who hold the degree? I would think it is the second. And that's what's worth spending time improving.

 

[Ki45toryu]

Honestly, don't give ctdocMD any more of your time and energy by responding to his or her nonsense. We don't need to defend ourselves at all and we especially don't need to defend our choice. Don't feed 'em; it just makes 'em more hungry. Bigotry sucks, but as evidenced by this thread (specifically, ctdocMD's posts), it most certainly exists. Some people just don't like what is different than their own.

Anyway, it's amazing how much stock we put into a degree, for goodness sake. Is it the degree that defines the quality of care provided, or the moment-to-moment actions themselves of those who hold the degree? I would think it is the second. And that's what's worth spending time improving.

That being said, you full well know people going into the profession because of the letters behind their name.

 

[DocFox]

it's amazing how much stock we put into a degree, for goodness sake. Is it the degree that defines the quality of care provided, or the moment-to-moment actions themselves of those who hold the degree? I would think it is the second. And that's what's worth spending time improving.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and that's why I don't care if the degree is changed of course as long as there is a beneficial reason for it (see my post above).

 

[endocardium]

That being said, you full well know people going into the profession because of the letters behind their name.

Of course, it's undeniable. I would argue, however, that it isn't those letters they are after specifically, but some false sense they are going to be able to fill the void in their soul by obtaining...whatever it is. I mean, if it wasn't those two letters, it would be something else, I think.

 

[amindwalker]

I know some people who got MCAT scores in the thirties who are real mouth-breathers and are doing much worse in med school than I am. I also know at least one guy who took the MCAT three times and took a prep course to finally get a 23, who is doing much better than me. Let's just agree that MCAT and GPA do not equal success in med school or competency in practice.

Furthermore, I submit to you that the difficulty with which one gains admission to a medical program is conversely proportionate with the difficulty of the program. For example; Yale medical school (I have been told) has no exams, no grades, and no class ranking. They just assume that if you can gain admission, that you will be successful. The Caribbean schools have (as I understand) a nearly 50% wash out rate. It's not that they can't hack it, it's just that they make it extra hard to succeed so that those who complete the training will definitely be competitive.

I attend a school which according to the 2003 published stats, was the second easiest program to get into in the US, although that is no longer the case. It is a very tough school. I wanted to go to UB in Buffalo but didn't get in (out of state) because my wife's huge Italian-American family lives there. So I chose my school for geographical reasons (because it is nearby). I was accepted into several programs, but picked this one for my wife.

For the shigella camel/haploid ingestor (who shall remain nameless) who thinks he/she/it is somehow superior to DOs because of an unchecked ego, I would like to say... well, to quote Hornblower, "You're not worth the powder."

A.T. Still was an MD. In 1874, he "flung dung" (some of you will get it)because at the time, allopathic medicine was complete quackery, with all the bloodletting, patent remedies, and digital clitoral manipulation to relieve feminine "hysteria" being done by perverted male physicians, he no longer felt he could be associated with the absurdities of "modern medicine." He focused on bone setting to relieve pain and other illnesses. And guess what, it worked!! During the swine flu pandemic of 1918, osteopaths (as they were then called) had 0.25% patient mortality rate compared to the allopathic 90%. (Please check my stats, I'm a married man and therefore am wrong a lot)

I find it interesting that the roles have reversed, DOs are considered by some to be the quacks, and some of the MDs, by virtue of being matriculated to their geographical preference, have a superiority complex. Get over it! DOs are here, get used to it! I am going to be an anesthesiologist. Are you going to assume I am not competent because I don't have MD behind my name? Well, I guess that means you can't do your surgery doc.

We need to focus on harmony not division. Degree change? I don't give a flying rat's @$$!!! If you think you're better than me, meet me in the cage, motor scooter! That's always been my policy. Otherwise, stow that MD vs DO nonsense where the lumbar splanchnics work. Just don't get sick on my watch, cuz apparently, all AT Still did was make it so that dummies like me could become physicians. Have a nice day.

 

[cyclohexanol]

During the swine flu pandemic of 1918, osteopaths (as they were then called) had 0.25% patient mortality rate compared to the allopathic 90%. (Please check my stats, I'm a married man and therefore am wrong a lot)

0.25% vs 5%

RK Smith
One hundred thousand cases of influenza with a death rate of one-fortieth of that officially reported under conventional medical treatment. 1919
J Am Osteopath Assoc, May 2000; 100: 320 - 323.

http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/reprint/100/5/320?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=smith%2C+rk&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT


An aside:
If you ask me, this study is cited way too many times in support of osteopathic techniques. In 1918, the 'standard' treatment of influenza was some combination of the following: aspirin, quinine, cinnamon oil+milk, digitalis, and serum from recovering patients. Doing absolutely nothing for these patients might have been better than some of the treatments. Not to mention that research methods and medical study design at the turn of the century may not have been that great. There are a number of factors that the article does not account for at all.

I'm not saying the treatment wasn't useful, I'm just tired of OMM profs preaching about it like its gospel and omitting the possible flaws of the study.

 

[Boner]

Again, I will reiterate the basic idea for those whose reading comprehension might be questionable. The MD,DO will be granted by osteopathic medical schools. An MD will still be granted by allopathic schools. If an MD were to enter an osteopathic residency, they MUST learn OMM. If they complete the 200 hours of OMM training equivalent to osteo undergrad education, they will also be able to earn the MD,DO.
One of the underlying issues is the FACT that DO education is exactly the same as MD education, except DOs get OMM training. There is nothing "holistic" about the physio, pharm, biochem, etc... that we as DO students learn (for those who don't think so, get over it).

Furthermore, by having MDs learn OMM in our residencies, and by having DOs teach OMM in MD residencies, we are doing a great service by educating more physicians in OMM. Having more people learn OMM will spark more interest in OMM research as well.

 

[deleted72725]

thats how it should stay. as i said, i worked to get where i am today, no offense but it would have been an easier route if i went DO and knew that eventually one day MDs and DOs could have the same title MD,DO...do you see my point?

Hmmm... and how would you know it? did you complete DO school first and now you are in MD school? Interesting, how can you have opinion about something you don't know. Or maybe you are a repeater DO school got you smarter and ready for MD school! from preschool to kindergarten

 

[DannMann99]

👍 Boner

 

[deleted72725]

Again, I will reiterate the basic idea for those whose reading comprehension might be questionable. The MD,DO will be granted by osteopathic medical schools. An MD will still be granted by allopathic schools. If an MD were to enter an osteopathic residency, they MUST learn OMM. If they complete the 200 hours of OMM training equivalent to osteo undergrad education, they will also be able to earn the MD,DO.
One of the underlying issues is the FACT that DO education is exactly the same as MD education, except DOs get OMM training. There is nothing "holistic" about the physio, pharm, biochem, etc... that we as DO students learn (for those who don't think so, get over it).

Furthermore, by having MDs learn OMM in our residencies, and by having DOs teach OMM in MD residencies, we are doing a great service by educating more physicians in OMM. Having more people learn OMM will spark more interest in OMM research as well.

well put!👍

 

[coffeebythelake]

Again, I will reiterate the basic idea for those whose reading comprehension might be questionable. The MD,DO will be granted by osteopathic medical schools. An MD will still be granted by allopathic schools. If an MD were to enter an osteopathic residency, they MUST learn OMM. If they complete the 200 hours of OMM training equivalent to osteo undergrad education, they will also be able to earn the MD,DO.

Osteopathic medical schools begin granting MD/DO much to the chagrin of allopathic medical schools and AMA. MD/DOs are not permitted to use only the MD designation. MDs advertise they are not osteopathic physicians and that MD/DO is not the same as MD. MD/DOs advertise they are fully licensed physicians with full practicing rights, and that they are not different from MDs (public asks why they are MD/DO and not just an MD). End result: nothing has changed, except a bunch of DOs that can pretend they are MDs.

NB: I have yet to hear a compelling reason how a change in name will make DOs better doctors.

One of the underlying issues is the FACT that DO education is exactly the same as MD education, except DOs get OMM training. There is nothing "holistic" about the physio, pharm, biochem, etc... that we as DO students learn (for those who don't think so, get over it).

The FACT is osteopathic medical schools grant DO and allopathic medical schools grant MD.

Furthermore, by having MDs learn OMM in our residencies, and by having DOs teach OMM in MD residencies, we are doing a great service by educating more physicians in OMM. Having more people learn OMM will spark more interest in OMM research as well.

Most allopathic physicians don't want to be associated with OMM, so I don't know why you would think it is a "great service" to physicians, or society, or humanity.

 

[amindwalker]

Thanks cyclohexanol. I was too lazy last night to check the stats.

 

[DannMann99]

As for OMM being taught to MDs --- didn't y'all know HARVARD has an OMM summer intensive course for MDs, taught by DOs, that is consistently packed with a waitlist?

eikenheim.

Letters dont make good doctors, no one is refuting that...

 

[Boner]

Osteopathic medical schools begin granting MD/DO much to the chagrin of allopathic medical schools and AMA.

If you have read any of the previous posts, you will have noticed that the degree designation change is part of a negotiation WITH the AMA.

The FACT is osteopathic medical schools grant DO and allopathic medical schools grant MD.

True, but the education is the same, except for OMM. If I'm not mistaken, looks like you attend Wayne State. Being from Michigan, you should be very aware of this considering MSU has an MD and DO school. Both schools share basic science classes and rotation sites.

Most allopathic physicians don't want to be associated with OMM, so I don't know why you would think it is a "great service" to physicians, or society, or humanity.

Actually, a lot of allopathic PM&R residencies teach manipulation. They don't brand it as OMM, but it is the same thing. Furthermore, MDs are continually enrolling in CME OMM courses. Now, this might not represent the majority of MDs, but you can't just write off OMM because of your personal opinion when a good deal of MDs are pursuing OMM education.

 

[UCFMOP]

So will DMU grads and other osteopathic grads receive two degrees?

Doctorate of Medicine, and the Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine?

Or just one huge diploma with four letters MDDO

 

[J1515]

NB: I have yet to hear a compelling reason how a change in name will make DOs better doctors.

Same here. I'm still waiting too.

I have a better idea. How about if your last name starts with a K or lower, and you go to a DO school, do an osteopathic residency but an allopathic fellowship OR, if you go to an MD school and do an allopathic residency with an osteopathic fellowship but take 200 hours of OMM, OR if you go to a Carribean school and do an osteopathic residency with an allowpathic fellowship but your last name starts with a T or lower, then you can get a DO, MD degree but you can only use the MD letters on days that there are no other MDs working in your practice? How does that sound everyone?

I can't believe the nonsense I'm reading here. Shouldn't you people be studying to become the best doctor you could possibly be rather than coming up with all these ridiculous plans of how to change our letters when in reality IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN?

I have the solution to everyone's problem, ready? Listen up...here it is:
-------------
PRE-MEDS - IF YOU DON'T WANT THE LETTERS "DO" FOLLOWING YOUR NAME, DON'T GO TO AN OSTEOPATHIC MEDICAL SCHOOL. IF YOUR GRADES/MCAT AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR AN ALLOPATHIC SCHOOL - TOUGH ****.
-------------

Problem solved.

Now stop embarassing our profession and worry about issues that pertain to practicing medicine and saving lifes.

 

[bth7]

Most allopathic physicians don't want to be associated with OMM, so I don't know why you would think it is a "great service" to physicians, or society, or humanity.

Wrong.

FACT: Studies show that the vast majority of allopathic physicians have a favorable attitude towards manual medicine, and have no problem recommending it to their patients.

• Physicians' and patients' attitudes toward manual medicine: implications for continuing medical education.
• Allopathic family medicine residents can learn osteopathic manipulation techniques in a 1-month elective.

Pre-meds: be very careful who you listen to in this discussion. People make claims without backing them up with verified sources.

Interesting discussion about the degree change idea in this months, DO magazine. Certainly more articulate than the discussion here, which quickly devolves into " If you don't want a 'DO' after your name, don't go to an osteopathic school." For those of you reading, their are plenty of us who are very into the osteopathic profession who want to discuss the degree change, and we don't need to hide behind an SDN avatar to do it.

Check it out: DO degree change, May 2008 (These are the responses to the original article on the degree change. You can read the original article here: Letter Perfect, Can a new degree lead to more recognition for DOs?.)

bth

 

[Anton Chigurh]

Wrong.

FACT: Studies show that the vast majority of allopathic physicians have a favorable attitude towards manual medicine, and have no problem recommending it to their patients.

• Physicians' and patients' attitudes toward manual medicine: implications for continuing medical education.
• Allopathic family medicine residents can learn osteopathic manipulation techniques in a 1-month elective.

Pre-meds: be very careful who you listen to in this discussion. People make claims without backing them up with verified sources.

Interesting discussion about the degree change idea in this months, DO magazine. Certainly more articulate than the discussion here, which quickly devolves into " If you don't want a 'DO' after your name, don't go to an osteopathic school." For those of you reading, their are plenty of us who are very into the osteopathic profession who want to discuss the degree change, and we don't need to hide behind an SDN avatar to do it.

Check it out: DO degree change, May 2008

bth

Thanks for the article bth. Pretty much the same arguments espoused by sdners in this thread, without the rhetorical garbage. It'll be very interesting to see how the AOA & AMA handle this.

 

[cyclohexanol]

NB: I have yet to hear a compelling reason how a change in name will make DOs better doctors.

Same here. I'm still waiting too.

Clearly not every decision that is made in the medical profession is designed to make doctors better. Despite what you may believe it is, in fact, possible to make a collective organizational decision that has nothing to do with education or quality of training as it pertains to improving physician quality.

How did changing the degree from Doctor of Osteopathy to Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine make us better doctors?

Originally, allo med schools in the US granted the MB degree. How did changing MB to MD make them better doctors?

Again, not everything we do or decide upon needs to make us better doctors.

 

[bth7]

Thanks for the article bth. Pretty much the same arguments espoused by sdners in this thread, without the rhetorical garbage. It'll be very interesting to see how the AOA & AMA handle this.

I agree. It will be interesting. I find all things related to the relationship between the AMA and AOA very interesting.

This NEJM article from this week on a related topic is also worth reading:
Grassroots Activism and the Pursuit of an Expanded Physician Supply

bth

 

[amindwalker]

It's interesting that anyone who so much as hints about the degree change on this forum gets shot down with blind fury by the people who don't want to change the degree. I'm alarmed that such individuals seem to think that character assassination is professional behavior.

I've never advocated the degree change, but I have to say that those in favor of it (here and in the current edition of the DO magazine) are, in my opinion, doing a better job of presenting their case in a logical (and rational) manner. The other side, for the most part, seems to be lashing out angrily and resorting to whatever means necessary to prevent any intelligent discussion of the topic.

I submit to you that there are probably many people who would like to see a degree change, but are too afraid to discuss it here because they don't want to be SCREAMED AT IN ALL CAPS, called names, or publicly insulted. I haven't read any posts where a proponent of degree change is hatefully flaming an individual poster for disagreeing with the concept. If someone's opinion on the matter differs from yours, please try to be mature enough to respectfully listen to it. However, if your opinion of me is that I'm a (insert your favorite dirty word), and you express that on this forum, be advised I might respond in kind. I hate bullies and that's what some of you are being.