DO ignorance sucks

[seminoma]

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Perhaps the differences in values between DO and MD schools stem from the differences in their experiences with past students.

DO schools have long been considered to value non-traditional students and life experiences, whereas MD schools are considered to put more emphasis on academic achievement and scholarly projects. These ideas may be overblown, but they do probably stem from some level of truth. With that in mind, it's fair to say that DO schools and MD schools have both been matriculating and eventually graduating a certain type of student. In addition, they have been developing their curricula in ways that maximize the learning ability of their chosen students (or perhaps they matriculate students who they feel will fit their curricula the best). Thus, the "differences" in values are a product of admissions committees sticking with what they know and matriculating the types of students who have done well in the past. In essence, both DO and MD adcoms are playing it safe. Why take a risk when you don't have to?

So it's not the case of the big bad MD schools hating on non-trads. The MD schools just don't have as much experience with non-trads plus they have a steady stream of applicants that resemble previous year's matriculants so they might as well stick to it.

 

[Seth Joo]

Perhaps the differences in values between DO and MD schools stem from the differences in their experiences with past students.

DO schools have long been considered to value non-traditional students and life experiences, whereas MD schools are considered to put more emphasis on academic achievement and scholarly projects. These ideas may be overblown, but they do probably stem from some level of truth. With that in mind, it's fair to say that DO schools and MD schools have both been matriculating and eventually graduating a certain type of student. In addition, they have been developing their curricula in ways that maximize the learning ability of their chosen students (or perhaps they matriculate students who they feel will fit their curricula the best). Thus, the "differences" in values are a product of admissions committees sticking with what they know and matriculating the types of students who have done well in the past. In essence, both DO and MD adcoms are playing it safe. Why take a risk when you don't have to?

There is a lot more range in academic qualifications at Osteopathic schools compared to DO schools. I know classmates with MCATs in the low 20 to mid 20s and some with MCATs near 40.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Perhaps the differences in values between DO and MD schools stem from the differences in their experiences with past students.

DO schools have long been considered to value non-traditional students and life experiences, whereas MD schools are considered to put more emphasis on academic achievement and scholarly projects. These ideas may be overblown, but they do probably stem from some level of truth. With that in mind, it's fair to say that DO schools and MD schools have both been matriculating and eventually graduating a certain type of student. In addition, they have been developing their curricula in ways that maximize the learning ability of their chosen students (or perhaps they matriculate students who they feel will fit their curricula the best). Thus, the "differences" in values are a product of admissions committees sticking with what they know and matriculating the types of students who have done well in the past. In essence, both DO and MD adcoms are playing it safe. Why take a risk when you don't have to?

So it's not the case of the big bad MD schools hating on non-trads. The MD schools just don't have as much experience with non-trads plus they have a steady stream of applicants that resemble previous year's matriculants so they might as well stick to it.

It's not that DO schools have long valued non-traditional students and life experience. It is that their applicant pool is less impressive.

There is nothing magical about what DO schools look for compared to their MD counterparts. Their applicant pool is just less competitive. The same argument has been made by students from low tier MD schools compared to their Harvard/Columbia/Penn/UCSF counterparts. I'm sure I have made this argument a time or two. The truth of the matter is that the people getting into the Harvards of the world are superstars in every way. Their extra curriculars are much more impressive than yours or mine. Their grades are much better. Their MCAT scores are exceptional. They are often non-trads themselves.

There are plenty of non-traditional pre-meds in MD schools. MD schools just have an applicant pool that includes many non-trads who have gleeming academic records and strong ECs and don't need to consider those with blemishes. So it may seem that MD schools hate on non-trads; they don't. They just don't have to consider people with crappy stats who haven't proved they belong.

 

[DoctorS_]

I just had an MS1 at an allopathic school ask me, "Are you only applying to DO school or are you applying to med school too?"

 

[pink/\floyd]

I just had an MS1 at an allopathic school ask me, "Are you only applying to DO school or are you applying to med school too?"

This guy sounds like a prick. How can someone (in the medical field) not know about osteopathic physicians/DO schools?! How the heck did someone so ignorant get in?!

 

[radkat101]

This guy sounds like a prick. How can someone (in the medical field) not know about osteopathic physicians/DO schools?! How the heck did someone so ignorant get in?!

It's very common, and there's really no reason to take offense to it. I went out with some MD students at the beginning of the semester when I first got an acceptance and only 1 person from the group of 5 really knew what DO was. After some discussion they were on board, but they certainly weren't ignorant people.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I just had an MS1 at an allopathic school ask me, "Are you only applying to DO school or are you applying to med school too?"

A ton of allo people apply to MD/do so its suprising that person didn't atleast know.

 

[pink/\floyd]

It's very common, and there's really no reason to take offense to it. I went out with some MD students at the beginning of the semester when I first got an acceptance and only 1 person from the group of 5 really knew what DO was. After some discussion they were on board, but they certainly weren't ignorant people.

Given 20% of the current medical student population in America are training to become osteopathic physicians, I find this truly surprising and bizzare.

 

[radkat101]

Given 20% of the current medical student population in America are training to become osteopathic physicians, I find this truly surprising and bizzare.

I agree it's kinda weird, but a large portion of the remaining 80% didn't even need to consider applying DO, and therefore didn't really need to know the details. I'm also from Texas where most of us apply to our DO school along with the MD schools. I'm guilty of knowing little to nothing about DO until I got the interview. Now that I'm here, I still have a lot of trouble trying to explain the difference which is part of what drives the confusion. When I tell people that 2 hours of OMM a week is the only difference (which is true) it seems to make people suspicious. I mean, why have a whole different degree just for that??? Most of them won't really understand until they are out rotating or practicing with DOs.

 

[JimmyB123]

I just had an MS1 at an allopathic school ask me, "Are you only applying to DO school or are you applying to med school too?"

This is what I have gathered from my post-grad days, working at an "Ivory Tower" institution as well as working at a less prestigious institution. At the higher reaches of the academic echelon, people are more oblivious to what's below them. A physician-scientist working at the Cleveland Clinic doesn't know or care what DOs are. He cares about what his colleagues at the Brigham, or Cedars Sinai, or Emory are doing. I find that DO ignorance is far far less at a state allopathic school or a less prestigious institution, where people are more likely going to run into DOs in the workplace.

I used to feel really bad about the fact that there are people that don't know what DOs are (hence why I started this thread). But the more and more im realizing..who cares about those people? The world is a huge place and you don't have to surround yourself with high-and-mighty academics, or whoever they are that don't know what a DO does. There are enough people out there that do.

Edit: Now there are certainly humble open minded people at high end institutions that know very well what DOs are. Those people are my favorite

 

[F#&$#^&&@theMCAT]

As of now, DO's are often times looked down upon.. which is dumb. However, in 10 years students are going to be struggling to get into DO medical school because its going to be so competitive. DO and MD will eventually be the DDS and DMD of dentistry. Who cares what people say, know that either way (DO or MD) you will become a physician.

 

[ananasmed]

This is what I have gathered from my post-grad days, working at an "Ivory Tower" institution as well as working at a less prestigious institution. At the higher reaches of the academic echelon, people are more oblivious to what's below them. A physician-scientist working at the Cleveland Clinic doesn't know or care what DOs are. He cares about what his colleagues at the Brigham, or Cedars Sinai, or Emory are doing. I find that DO ignorance is far far less at a state allopathic school or a less prestigious institution, where people are more likely going to run into DOs in the workplace.

I used to feel really bad about the fact that there are people that don't know what DOs are (hence why I started this thread). But the more and more im realizing..who cares about those people? The world is a huge place and you don't have to surround yourself with high-and-mighty academics, or whoever they are that don't know what a DO does. There are enough people out there that do.

Edit: Now there are certainly humble open minded people at high end institutions that know very well what DOs are. Those people are my favorite

Agree, but also interesting to note... there are actually (relatively speaking) a lot of DOs at the Cleveland Clinic!

 

[Seth Joo]

It's not that DO schools have long valued non-traditional students and life experience. It is that their applicant pool is less impressive.

There is nothing magical about what DO schools look for compared to their MD counterparts. Their applicant pool is just less competitive. The same argument has been made by students from low tier MD schools compared to their Harvard/Columbia/Penn/UCSF counterparts. I'm sure I have made this argument a time or two. The truth of the matter is that the people getting into the Harvards of the world are superstars in every way. Their extra curriculars are much more impressive than yours or mine. Their grades are much better. Their MCAT scores are exceptional. They are often non-trads themselves.

There are plenty of non-traditional pre-meds in MD schools. MD schools just have an applicant pool that includes many non-trads who have gleeming academic records and strong ECs and don't need to consider those with blemishes. So it may seem that MD schools hate on non-trads; they don't. They just don't have to consider people with crappy stats who haven't proved they belong.

I recall from my premed advisor that if you had more than two Cs or lower on your transcript, you can forget about going to medical school, but he was referring to MD schools.

DO schools are way more forgiving about blemishes compared to MD schools. I have also noticed that DOs tend to be way more approachable as human beings compared to MDs. Faculty at MD schools tend to be a very intimidating lot, many are quite elitist.

 

[MetricSystem]

This is my stance.
Yes, MD applicant avg is higher than DO applicant avg.
However, better stats in undergrad doesn't mean you will be a better physician.
We will all start from the same point. Of course, if you were "smart" in undergrad, you will have a "easier" time in medical school but that's not a guaranteed.

Having DO ignorance is like saying nurses, PA, techs, and NPs are somehow below MDs or DOs. They all play a crucial role in medicine. Are you a "failure" if you become a nurse instead of a doctor?

also, I've read NPs vs PAs in earlier threads (some with personal experience). Guys, the amount of practice they do really depends where they practice.
Someone said NPs work like doctors whereas PAs have to get approval from doctors or something like that.
It really depends on what state and even what hospital in same state one works in.

 

[Seth Joo]

Anyway I believe that lamenting being a DO is like crying over spilled milk, those of us in school should just be thankful that DO schools exist because otherwise we would not become doctors, or we would be forced to go to some foreign country in the attempt to become a physician.

 

[AlteredScale]

DO schools are way more forgiving about blemishes compared to MD schools. I have also noticed that DOs tend to be way more approachable as human beings compared to MDs. Faculty at MD schools tend to be a very intimidating lot, many are quite elitist.

+1 this tends to be at schools where stats mean a whole lot (high MCAT high GPA) while the screen for having personable, approachable, and genuine students isn't as high of a priority. The medschool where I'm doing my UG at right now seems to have that. They aren't looking for the friendliest people, they want the sharpest and smartest who can blaze through pre clinical work and push out a ton of research at the same time. Which to me sounds like they are trying to produce physician investigators who will spend a good majority of their time in the lab, not practicing medicine, and that's OK, it's a different focus and different fit.

 

[67552931811]

As of now, the vast majority of physicians could care less if you are a DO. However, in 10 years students are going to be struggling to get into medical school because its going to be so competitive. DO and MD are the DDS and DMD of dentistry. Who cares what people say, know that either way (DO or MD) you will become a physician.

Fixed that for you.

 

[deleted407021]

People claim that the difficulty of curricula is more or less the same across med schools, DO and MD. And both degree granting entities, all across the country produce very high graduation rates and board passing rates, to the extent that US medical education is among of the best in the world. So if the med school difficulty is more or less homogenous and pretty much every school produces competent doctors, but incoming stats for most MD schools are higher than that for DO schools, it stands to reason that GPA and even MCAT scores are not the be all end all of measuring capability and intelligence in student populations.

This is probably an obvious statement...I'm just bored in my research methods lecture. :/

 

[AlteredScale]

People claim that the difficulty of curricula is more or less the same across med schools, DO and MD. And both degree granting entities, all across the country produce very high graduation rates and board passing rates, to the extent that US medical education is among of the best in the world. So if the med school difficulty is more or less homogenous and pretty much every school produces competent doctors, but incoming stats for most MD schools are higher than that for DO schools, it stands to reason that GPA and even MCAT scores are not the be all end all of measuring capability and intelligence in student populations.

This is probably an obvious statement...I'm just bored in my research methods lecture. :/

Oh jeeze. Is that a requirement?!

 

[deleted407021]

Oh jeeze. Is that a requirement?!

For psych majors, yeah.

 

[user3]

Anyway I believe that lamenting being a DO is like crying over spilled milk, those of us in school should just be thankful that DO schools exist because otherwise we would not become doctors, or we would be forced to go to some foreign country in the attempt to become a physician.

however, there is nothing wrong with being dissatisfied with how the AOA has managed the profession. I feel like you encourage condoning and tolerating of the broken status quo. It is such attitudes that have halted the advancement of the DO degree, and yours and my future opportunities.

 

[Seth Joo]

however, there is nothing wrong with being dissatisfied with how the AOA has managed the profession. And honestly, it is attitudes like yours-- encouraging condoning, and tolerance of the broken status quo-- that has halted the advancement of the DO degree, and yours and my future opportunities.

I never said anything about the AOA, I said that the existence of DO schools offers those who do not have the academic credentials for Allopathic schools the chance to become a doctor. Of course there are people who take the overseas route which I believe is more difficult, I even know of some people who go into DO schools but chose Caribbean and other foreign programs because of the two letters after their name. The AOA has its flaws, of course it does, but at the end of the day I think the outlook for DOs is bright.

Even if I do not get an MD residency, I will be grateful to get an AOA training position that will allow me to practice.

Yes there are issues with the system, but considering the alternative, which means going overseas and risking not getting a residency, the DO degree is a great alternative to the MD.

 

[JimmyB123]

I never said anything about the AOA, I said that the existence of DO schools offers those who do not have the academic credentials for Allopathic schools the chance to become a doctor. Of course there are people who take the overseas route which I believe is more difficult, I even know of some people who go into DO schools but chose Caribbean and other foreign programs because of the two letters after their name. The AOA has its flaws, of course it does, but at the end of the day I think the outlook for DOs is bright.

Even if I do not get an MD residency, I will be grateful to get an AOA training position that will allow me to practice.

Yes there are issues with the system, but considering the alternative, which means going overseas and risking not getting a residency, the DO degree is a great alternative to the MD.

It's unfortunate that you think of the degree as an "alternative" to the MD. I understand that mentality but I think that in order to be successful, happy, and ultimately passionate about whatever it is that you do, you shouldn't think like that.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

It's unfortunate that you think of the degree as an "alternative" to the MD. I understand that mentality but I think that in order to be successful, happy, and ultimately passionate about whatever it is that you do, you shouldn't think like that.

What would you call it? A "separate-but-equal equivalent" to the MD degree? I don't think there was any malevolence in saying it's an alternative. DMD is an alternative to DDS... That's not making a quality judgment.

 

[jl lin]

18-month online degree

rigorous

Well, I am totally opposed to NP/PA encroachment for a number of reasons, but I don't know of any reputable NP program that is 18 month online. Just like you are never going to see that for CRNA. It's impossible.

Also, the type and quality and amount of pre-graduate nurse clinical experience totally depends on the individual nurse. IMHO, schools are too quick to take those in their programs with less than 3 years full-time, quality clinical RN experience. But I don't run those programs, so. . .

At any rate, seriously, I don't know how you could do NP all online, b/c clinical rotations are required and graded, and I believe these are required to even be licensed as an NP and definitely for CRNA.

As far as comparing PA to NP or CRNA. There again, the difference will be in the quality and amount of clinical exposure--especially clinical work to which the individual must be accountable. I'd say that PAs get more science overall. But if you have a well-seasoned RN with a lot of quality clinical experience in acute and critical care, and you are bright, eh, I might be more inclined to take on the NP if I had to as a physician. I mean it really depends. This is why you interview INDIVIDUALS.

Again, I think programs need to tighten up on who gets into these NP and CRNA programs. Too many youngsters want to zoom right into advanced practice programs, and they clinically have barely gotten their feet wet. It's ridiculous.

IMHO, if you have to choose between NP, CRNA, and DO or MD, totally go for the DO or MD. Either DO or MD will prepare you better and take you farther. I'm a seasoned RN, and it is a very, very rare occasion when anyone is my family or I see a NP or PA. Sorry. I have my reasons, and I think I have touched on some of them.

 

[Seth Joo]

It's unfortunate that you think of the degree as an "alternative" to the MD. I understand that mentality but I think that in order to be successful, happy, and ultimately passionate about whatever it is that you do, you shouldn't think like that.

Most of the people who are doctors in the US have an MD degree, I also believe that in most countries that is the degree that most doctors hold.

Many people do apply DO as an alternative to MD, I was one of them, I think many of my classmates were the same. Some had the grades for MD, but could not get in, and some just did not have the grades but still had the motivation.

 

[user3]

.

 

[D2thaJay]

Honestly, I was worried about this before I started med school but now I realized that I am simply a med student. Not a DO med student. Just a med student trying to make it though the insanity. Even on my little bit of clinical experience so far in school I notice the DOs I am working with don't go around saying I am a DO they simply say I am a Dr and that's what their patients and colleges know them as. So when I graduate I will not introduce myself as DO "blank" but as Dr. "Blank" and that is all that matters.

 

[deleted436726]

Honestly, I was worried about this before I started med school but now I realized that I am simply a med student. Not a DO med student. Just a med student trying to make it though the insanity. Even on my little bit of clinical experience so far in school I notice the DOs I am working with don't go around saying I am a DO they simply say I am a Dr and that's what their patients and colleges know them as. So when I graduate I will not introduce myself as DO "blank" but as Dr. "Blank" and that is all that matters.

Seriously. If you don't believe this, just watch some TV news segments where they're interviewing a doctor. The caption never says "<name>, DO" or <name>, MD"... it's always "Dr. <name>".

 

[MetricSystem]

It's unfortunate that you think of the degree as an "alternative" to the MD. I understand that mentality but I think that in order to be successful, happy, and ultimately passionate about whatever it is that you do, you shouldn't think like that.

I actually agree with you about the "alternative" part. I am hesitant and careful when using the word "alternative" because, at least to me, it seems like that word makes things seem less important.
You never here people referring MD as an alternative to DO but DO as an alternative to MD. We keep pushing for MD=DO but refer DO as an alternative to MD.
Honestly, this maybe nitpicking and it might not really matter. But (to me [let me emphasize that if that isn't clear]) I don't think "alternative" is a right word choice. At least when I interviewed at schools, I didn't refer OMM/OMT as an alternative tool/skill/method to surgery/medications.

@Seth Joo I don't think "existence of DO schools offers those who do not have the academic credentials for Allopathic schools the chance to become a doctor" is completely true. There are those who choose to be DOs over MDs (I'm sure you know that). And there are MD schools that have lower avgs compared to DO schools.

Based on your logic, DO is an alternative to MD. Chiropractor or physical therapist is an alternative to DO. Nurses, techs, NPs, and PAs are all alternative to ones above and they would all have chosen to be MDs if they had a chance to or the academic credentials to (Not saying you said that. I'm over exaggerating).

 

[Seth Joo]

I actually agree with you about the "alternative" part. I am hesitant and careful when using the word "alternative" because, at least to me, it seems like that word makes things seem less important.
You never here people referring MD as an alternative to DO but DO as an alternative to MD. We keep pushing for MD=DO but refer DO as an alternative to MD.
Honestly, this maybe nitpicking and it might not really matter. But (to me [let me emphasize that if that isn't clear]) I don't think "alternative" is a right word choice. At least when I interviewed at schools, I didn't refer OMM/OMT as an alternative tool/skill/method to surgery/medications.

@Seth Joo I don't think "existence of DO schools offers those who do not have the academic credentials for Allopathic schools the chance to become a doctor" is completely true. There are those who choose to be DOs over MDs (I'm sure you know that). And there are MD schools that have lower avgs compared to DO schools.

Based on your logic, DO is an alternative to MD. Chiropractor or physical therapist is an alternative to DO. Nurses, techs, NPs, and PAs are all alternative to ones above and they would all have chosen to be MDs if they had a chance to or the academic credentials to (Not saying you said that. I'm over exaggerating).

It is very rare for someone to choose MD over DO, I heard of someone picking CCOM over U of Illinois MD because CCOM was close to Chicago, but for the most part MDs are generally more marketable and their schools get more applicants.

My own personal experience was that DO schools were much more responsive to a non traditional like me.

 

[deleted436726]

It is very rare for someone to choose MD over DO, I heard of someone picking CCOM over U of Illinois MD because CCOM was close to Chicago, but for the most part MDs are generally more marketable and their schools get more applicants.

My own personal experience was that DO schools were much more responsive to a non traditional like me.

MDs are more marketable? Dude, there's a 40,000+ shortage of physicians. I've never heard of any US trained physician complain about not being marketable or having trouble practicing in the region of their choice. Employers aren't exactly in a position to pick and choose to their heart's content.

 

[IslandStyle808]

It is very rare for someone to choose MD over DO, I heard of someone picking CCOM over U of Illinois MD because CCOM was close to Chicago, but for the most part MDs are generally more marketable and their schools get more applicants.

My own personal experience was that DO schools were much more responsive to a non traditional like me.

This maybe a school dependent thing, but this is not true across the board. Both the AAMC and AACOM have reported averages around 24-25. You may have a personal experience that says otherwise, but it is still important to look at the data.

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[67552931811]

Nvm.

 

[DrBowtie]

MDs are more marketable? Dude, there's a 40,000+ shortage of physicians. I've never heard of any US trained physician complain about not being marketable or having trouble practicing in the region of their choice. Employers aren't exactly in a position to pick and choose to their heart's content.

There's a maldistribution, not a shortage. Just look on any number of specialty boards like Cards, Rads, Rad Onc, Anesthesia and you'll see that some markets are saturated.

 

[username456789]

MDs are more marketable? Dude, there's a 40,000+ shortage of physicians. I've never heard of any US trained physician complain about not being marketable or having trouble practicing in the region of their choice. Employers aren't exactly in a position to pick and choose to their heart's content.

This sort of premed obliviousness is almost endearing.

Almost.

 

[th3v3rn]

This sort of premed obliviousness is almost endearing.

Almost.

I'm seriously confused, as a DO will it be harder to get a job compared to an MD equivalent?

 

[deleted407021]

There's a maldistribution, not a shortage. Just look on any number of specialty boards like Cards, Rads, Rad Onc, Anesthesia and you'll see that some markets are saturated.

There's an interesting article on NPR regarding the shortage and if it actually exists.

 

[Seth Joo]

There's a maldistribution, not a shortage. Just look on any number of specialty boards like Cards, Rads, Rad Onc, Anesthesia and you'll see that some markets are saturated.

I am from a city with an over supply of doctors, I would say the top 10 US cities have an oversupply of physicians. There is a shortage of primary care physicians and those in rural and inner city areas. Why is that? Its because doctors tend to go where they can earn money and have a good lifestyle. Many of the newer physicians have unprecedented levels of student debt, so there is a motive to pay your way out, and specialties pay more than primary care.

Of course there are some medical schools where the student's parents pay all the way, even some schools give scholarship money to students who are rich or well off.

MDs are more marketable in the sense that they tend to get more competitive residencies even if they have lower board scores and LORs, people tend to know what an MD is, whereas there are many people who do not know what a DO is, even among the medical community there exists some who hold biases.

I had a few friends who went to the island MD schools because they did not want to be DOs, but for me I thought getting a foreign degree would be riskier, even if you do not get an MD residency, there are plenty of AOA postgraduate programs.

 

[MetricSystem]

I am from a city with an over supply of doctors, I would say the top 10 US cities have an oversupply of physicians. There is a shortage of primary care physicians and those in rural and inner city areas. Why is that? Its because doctors tend to go where they can earn money and have a good lifestyle. Many of the newer physicians have unprecedented levels of student debt, so there is a motive to pay your way out, and specialties pay more than primary care.

Of course there are some medical schools where the student's parents pay all the way, even some schools give scholarship money to students who are rich or well off.

MDs are more marketable in the sense that they tend to get more competitive residencies even if they have lower board scores and LORs, people tend to know what an MD is, whereas there are many people who do not know what a DO is, even among the medical community there exists some who hold biases.

I had a few friends who went to the island MD schools because they did not want to be DOs, but for me I thought getting a foreign degree would be riskier, even if you do not get an MD residency, there are plenty of AOA postgraduate programs.

I really wish primary care physicians get compensated more.
By no means is 15-20k a year a bad salary for anyone but compared to more specialized physicians...
Even among medical personales, it's not "recommended" to do primary care if you want to make money.... I know, it's a little silly/crazy.

I know I'll have plenty of jobs when I start looking because I like suburban/rural settings more than crazy busy cities.

 

[pink/\floyd]

I really wish primary care physicians get compensated more.
By no means is (15-20k) a year a bad salary for anyone but compared to more specialized physicians...
Even among medical personales, it's not "recommended" to do primary care if you want to make money.... I know, it's a little silly/crazy.

I know I'll have plenty of jobs when I start looking because I like suburban/rural settings more than crazy busy cities.

x10 😀

 

[MetricSystem]

x10 😀

Well... after taxes, tuition debt, mortgage, food, bills, kids, wife, insurance, spa, cruise, gifts, cars, clothes, watches.... it might be 15-20k...

Just kidding. Thanks for pointing that out! Silly me.
I love medicine but I'm sorry, I can't go through medical school to only make 15-20k a year...

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Well... after taxes, tuition debt, mortgage, food, bills, kids, wife, insurance, spa, cruise, gifts, cars, clothes, watches.... it might be 15-20k...

Just kidding. Thanks for pointing that out! Silly me.
I love medicine but I'm sorry, I can't go through medical school to only make 15-20k a year...

I have actually done some math lately. Lets say you owe roughly 350-400K after interest. This is probably more accurate than the number that goes out saying "the average med school student has 150K in debt, thats not bad!"... For the rest of us at private schools or for those that have to take out full loan amounts, here is some basic math on it.

If you go into primary care I have heard you make maybe 130-150K out of residency (I have heard some start higher, but I have rarely heard of people starting lower than 120K, with the average being around 140K). You will get federal tax at 25% and state at 5% So you will be down to approximately 100K income. If you are on a 10 year repayment plan you will be paying roughly $3000-4000 a month towards your loan. So you are looking at about having $50,000-60,000 tangible income after taxes and student loans. While that is not amazing (especially for the work you put in), you wont be starving unless you have a bunch of kids or live lavishly. After your 10 years of payments are up you can pocket that extra 50K every year. Not to mention after 10 years of work you will have the experience to hopefully command a higher salary. Again this is the WORST case scenario (being a poorly paid PCP). If you get a more competitive specialty or the right fellowship, it can change these numbers pretty dramatically. Also if you do the 20 year repayment option then that obviously also changes the numbers pretty drastically.

So at least for me personally, I can be happy living on 50-60K after taxes and loans. Thats about 3x what I currently make and I work like a dog now. And then after a few years of paying loans I can actually make some decent money, sounds like an alright deal to me. I have yet to meet a legitimately struggling PCP. Many are stressed about the situation of lowered reimbursements, but most that I have met seem pretty content with how they are doing.

 

[67552931811]

I have actually done some math lately. Lets say you owe roughly 350-400K after interest. This is probably more accurate than the number that goes out saying "the average med school student has 150K in debt, thats not bad!"... For the rest of us at private schools or for those that have to take out full loan amounts, here is some basic math on it.

If you go into primary care I have heard you make maybe 130-150K out of residency (I have heard some start higher, but I have rarely heard of people starting lower than 120K, with the average being around 140K). You will get federal tax at 25% and state at 5% So you will be down to approximately 100K income. If you are on a 10 year repayment plan you will be paying roughly $3000-4000 a month towards your loan. So you are looking at about having $50,000-60,000 tangible income after taxes and student loans. While that is not amazing (especially for the work you put in), you wont be starving unless you have a bunch of kids or live lavishly. After your 10 years of payments are up you can pocket that extra 50K every year. Not to mention after 10 years of work you will have the experience to hopefully command a higher salary. Again this is the WORST case scenario (being a poorly paid PCP). If you get a more competitive specialty or the right fellowship, it can change these numbers pretty dramatically. Also if you do the 20 year repayment option then that obviously also changes the numbers pretty drastically.

So at least for me personally, I can be happy living on 50-60K after taxes and loans. Thats about 3x what I currently make and I work like a dog now. And then after a few years of paying loans I can actually make some decent money, sounds like an alright deal to me. I have yet to meet a legitimately struggling PCP. Many are stressed about the situation of lowered reimbursements, but most that I have met seem pretty content with how they are doing.

At what point in time are you using for the 350-400K example?

Using the same monetary values: if you begin making payments once you are done with residency (and say 350K in debt) you are paying ~2K a month just to cover the accruing interest going forward. Meaning you would need to be paying 5-6K a month in order to pay back that 350-400K in 10 years. Leaving you to live off 30-40K yearly for those 10 years...

However, if you are looking at it from the point of view that you graduate with 350-400K in debt then you are assuming one could pay off such massive interest on a resident's salary, highly unlikely unless you have another income in the house (i.e. spouse). Making the previous example a higher debt value with a lower income value (net and gross).

 

[MetricSystem]

At what point in time are you using for the 350-400K example?

Using the same monetary values: if you begin making payments once you are done with residency (and say 350K in debt) you are paying ~2K a month just to cover the accruing interest going forward. Meaning you would need to be paying 5-6K a month in order to pay back that 350-400K in 10 years. Leaving you to live off 30-40K yearly for those 10 years...

However, if you are looking at it from the point of view that you graduate with 350-400K in debt then you are assuming one could pay off such massive interest on a resident's salary, highly unlikely unless you have another income in the house (i.e. spouse). Making the previous example a higher debt value with a lower income value (net and gross).

Well, taking 70k avg a year x4, 280k. Given interest and extra spending, I think it is safe to say you will be 350-400k in debt. Isn't it?

 

[67552931811]

Well, taking 70k avg a year x4, 280k. Given interest and extra spending, I think it is safe to say you will be 350-400k in debt. Isn't it?

For me, no.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

At what point in time are you using for the 350-400K example?

Using the same monetary values: if you begin making payments once you are done with residency (and say 350K in debt) you are paying ~2K a month just to cover the accruing interest going forward. Meaning you would need to be paying 5-6K a month in order to pay back that 350-400K in 10 years. Leaving you to live off 30-40K yearly for those 10 years...

However, if you are looking at it from the point of view that you graduate with 350-400K in debt then you are assuming one could pay off such massive interest on a resident's salary, highly unlikely unless you have another income in the house (i.e. spouse). Making the previous example a higher debt value with a lower income value (net and gross).

I am giving a personal example which is to be the worst case scenario which would be if I had to take out the full 65K/year at KCUMB + 40K of undergrad debt.

This is under the assumption that I would obviously just be paying off some interest during residency and/or income based payments. I have no illusions that I will be making legitimate payments during residency and/or fellowship.

So I would be graduating with 300K, for which case you are right then, my payments will be a couple grand higher than expected. At that point I will still be looking at roughly double what I am making now... and thats STILL the worst case scenario. I COULD end up not having to take out as much for living expenses (up to 60K less overall depending on the wife's work), I COULD end up having more money because my wife has a good paying job (up to 100K in her field from what I have heard), I COULD end up in a competitive specialty which would obviously help me demolish the loans faster, the reimbursements for primary care specialties COULD be better in that time.

But as a worst case scenario in one of the poorer paying specialties, with hard work I will be doing at least twice as good as I am doing now. That sounds like a good deal to me. I am willing to put in the work to be making double what I am now, and then roughly 10x what I am making now, after 10 years of paying off loans.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

You are right Chitown, I did the math the other day and my payments were going to be around $5500/month. I was wondering where my lower amount came from. I forgot to include compounding interest to the math - that stuff is going to be adding WHILE I am paying.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I know it's worse case scenario. Just wanted to clarify.

Don't change that positive outlook!

I mean dont get me wrong... its going to be super hard and I know I will be feeling like I am poor as crap haha. But I do truly have hope that monetarily it will work out (after enough time) and that the work will truly be fulfilling.

Realistically even in the very worst scenario I would be doing a lot better than I am doing now. There is no money in science whatsoever and even if there was I pretty much hate this kind of work soooo. I also cant really see myself doing anything else, maybe starting a Whiskey company haha, but the chances of that working are probably even lower than my chances of graduating med school. So I am willing to put in the work to try and get out of this situation, even if it means I will only be making a little bit better for the first few years after residency.