DO ignorance

[orangeman25]

So I'm sitting at work chatting with my coworker, who is also applying to medical school currently (MD only though).

She was surprised that DOs can do family medicine. I asked her what she thought DOs do, and she was like "idunno, physical therapy?"

Has anyone faced this kind of ignorance before? And most importantly does it die down in a community of medical professionals?

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[Awesome Sauceome]

Sure I have, with undergrads and pre-meds. Out in the working world it is non-existent except for top tier research based MD schools.

 

[Gundam00]

Yea nobody realizes in the hospital I shadow at. Also your friend sounds really like a really educated pre-med for knowing what a DO is...

 

[Tri4thlete]

It really shows their level of intelligence, understanding of medicine, and naivety. Just ignore it, and chuckle to yourself (or respectfully correct them if they are interested in knowing).

I'm an avid sports fan, and athlete. It would be like me asking you "Have you ever done an Ironman? Do you even know what it is?" Then you respond with, "Err no, is that like the Tour de France?"

Most people who care about triathlon or sports as a topic have some idea what consists of an Ironman. In that case, I would chuckle to myself as you clearly have a very low interest/intelligence when it comes to triathlon or sports.

 

[AlteredScale]

Same here. I come from a very high level research university. There's only a handful of DOs in their entire health system. After talking with some of the college students, many assume DO is "just an" optometrist! I'm glad to hopefully be a part of our pre-SOMA to increase the awareness of the DO profession.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I have tried a whole heap of ways to educate people on this issue. Here is what I found to be most successful:

Ask them if they have a dentist. Most people will quickly give you an "of course."

Next ask them if they go to a DDS or DMD? At this point about 95% of people will scratch their head.

I then go on to explain that in essence that the DO and MD is the same thing as the dentist issue. That there are several ways to become a licensed physician in the United States but these two routes have slightly different training based upon historical differences. In practice and opportunity they can be remarkably similar.

 

[Tri4thlete]

I have tried a whole heap of ways to educate people on this issue. Here is what I found to be most successful:

Ask them if they have a dentist. Most people will quickly give you an "of course."

Next ask them if they go to a DDS or DMD? At this point about 95% of people will scratch their head.

I then go on to explain that in essence that the DO and MD do the same thing but have slightly different training based upon historical differences.

Exactly. When I was an undergrad I really didn't know what a D.P.M was. Now I can tell you what that is, including a myriad of other initials behind the names of medical professionals.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

For some reason though the DDS/DMD thing has really set it home for a lot of people that I have explained it to. Because EVERYONE knows what a dentist is, but so few actually know what kind of training their dentist did. So it helps teach them and shows their ignorance without coming off like a jerk. Most people end the conversation by being like... reallly??? I never knew that there were two types of doctor OR two types of dentist.... The comparison is a really quick and easy way to help family members and friends understand.

 

[orangeman25]

It really shows their level of intelligence, understanding of medicine, and naivety. Just ignore it, and chuckle to yourself (or respectfully correct them if they are interested in knowing).

I'm an avid sports fan, and athlete. It would be like me asking you "Have you ever done an Ironman? Do you even know what it is?" Then you respond with, "Err no, is that like the Tour de France?"

Most people who care about triathlon or sports as a topic have some idea what consists of an Ironman. In that case, I would chuckle to myself as you clearly have a very low interest/intelligence when it comes to triathlon or sports.

Agree. But if someone is going into medicine, they should know what a DO does. Like, do we not know what nurses or PAs or optometrists do? Of course we do. Such ignorance is just annoying and having colleagues like that would suck.

 

[orangeman25]

I have tried a whole heap of ways to educate people on this issue. Here is what I found to be most successful:

Ask them if they have a dentist. Most people will quickly give you an "of course."

Next ask them if they go to a DDS or DMD? At this point about 95% of people will scratch their head.

I then go on to explain that in essence that the DO and MD is the same thing as the dentist issue. That there are several ways to become a licensed physician in the United States but these two routes have slightly different training based upon historical differences. In practice and opportunity they can be remarkably similar.

Wow this is amazing. Will use this.

 

[orangeman25]

I should have told my coworker that DOs go on to be internists, anesthesiologists, and surgeons. Her jaw probably would have dropped.

 

[radkat101]

My best friend is at a state MD school, and I hang out with him and some of his classmates on a pretty regular basis. One of the MEDICAL STUDENTS with us had no idea what a DO was, and a couple others weren't really sure. It's not just pre-meds.

 

[cliquesh]

My best friend is at a state MD school, and I hang out with him and some of his classmates on a pretty regular basis. One of the MEDICAL STUDENTS with us had no idea what a DO was, and a couple others weren't really sure. It's not just pre-meds.

I have had attendings ask me, "what does the DO mean after your name?" Plenty of people have no idea what DOs are.

 

[radkat101]

I have had attendings ask me, "what does the DO mean after your name?" Plenty of people have no idea what DOs are.

I guess it never goes away. I don't perceive it as ignorance though. It just indicates that they've never been involved in an MD vs DO pissing contest. This is actually refreshing. When they found out I was a DO student (and what it was), their perceptions didn't seem to change or anything.

 

[hallowmann]

Agree. But if someone is going into medicine, they should know what a DO does. Like, do we not know what nurses or PAs or optometrists do? Of course we do. Such ignorance is just annoying and having colleagues like that would suck.

My best friend is at a state MD school, and I hang out with him and some of his classmates on a pretty regular basis. One of the MEDICAL STUDENTS with us had no idea what a DO was, and a couple others weren't really sure. It's not just pre-meds.

This really isn't that surprising. DO schools didn't really have a ton of exposure to the general public until recently. Go back <20yrs and there were only like 15-16 DO schools that collectively produced less than 1700 graduates per year. DOs even now barely represent 10% of practicing physicians. On top of that the distribution of DOs is not uniform nationally.

Its hard enough to find someone in college that even knows 10 docs, let alone whether one was a DO. If I didn't grow up in a family with medical professionals and didn't find this site, I wouldn't really know what DOs were either. Even with that kind of exposure I didn't really learn about them until I was halfway into college. Usually enough medical professonals interact with DOs on rotations and in hospitals, but some manage to get through all of medical school and residency without really interacting with DOs.

That said, I think this type of thing will only happen less. DO grads are currently 1/5 of all US medical grads, and they may get to 1/4 in the next 5 yrs. In time this will correlate to a 15-20% of all practicing US physician population.

 

[RTC19]

I face this sort of ignorance all the time. My prehealth advisor, of all people, thought that DOs did not have prescribing rights.

 

[WaterIsGood]

I wouldn't call it ignorance.
DO schools do such a poor job in recruiting/advertising. Which is unfortunate because there are tons of quality applicants that simply give up on med school or go overseas because they have no idea about DO schools.

I had very little knowledge about DO schools up until a few years ago. And I definitely didn't appreciate the equality between MD and DO physicians when it comes to scope of practice. It was SDN that eventually filled in the holes for me.

I'm sure a lot of past and current DO students were the same.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I face this sort of ignorance all the time. My prehealth advisor, of all people, thought that DOs did not have prescribing rights.

pre-health advisors on the other hand REALLY burn my biscuits....

I am cool with family members, friends, random people. But people who are in charge of helping direct people's lives should at the very least be aware of the truth between the two.

Thankfully my advisor has been extremely supportive of my applying DO, but I am shocked by how ill-informed some are.


On a side note, I agree with a couple of posts up, someone mentioned the distribution of DOs. Thats another big thing too... some areas have a ton of DOs running around, whereas others have none. Overall the numbers are definitely growing though which hopefully should help with the recognition.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I read somewhere here last year, that apparently a DO student's CLASSMATE was baffled to know that DOs could practice outside of family medicine. How someone matriculates into a DO school without knowing what they can/cannot do with their prospective degree is beyond me.

 

[nontrad78]

pre-health advisors on the other hand REALLY burn my biscuits....

I am cool with family members, friends, random people. But people who are in charge of helping direct people's lives should at the very least be aware of the truth between the two.

Thankfully my advisor has been extremely supportive of my applying DO, but I am shocked by how ill-informed some are.


On a side note, I agree with a couple of posts up, someone mentioned the distribution of DOs. Thats another big thing too... some areas have a ton of DOs running around, whereas others have none. Overall the numbers are definitely growing though which hopefully should help with the recognition.

I visited the same advisor whom I worked with for my first application, and let her know that I was planning on applying to DO programs across the country. After going through my plan, she said, "So your strategy is to apply more broadly?"

That's when I knew I was on my own. I was vindicated when at the end of the session, I asked her if there were any suggestions that she had for me through the process, she replied, "Thank you notes. Make sure you write thank you notes."

 

[VanEman]

I think the issue also may be somewhat regional. Places where DO's have a fairly long tradition probably don't have people that would give that ignorant a response, but DO schools are popping up in places that never had them before, so I think it will take some time.

 

[Shinobiz11]

Fortunately for me, Michigan is one the most DO-friendly states. My FM is a DO and they are pretty much everywhere around here. I find it really sad that ignorant students have never taken the time to Google/research basic premed information. One junior in my 400-level microbio class asked when "we" were suppose to take the MCAT. Others are so delusional, especially because everyone here dreams of getting into UMich.

 

[Goro]

It's one of the drawbacks of the profession. You'll get used to constantly explaining that, no, you're not an optometrist.


Go dig up my "I am not making this up" thread for what I had to deal once for just being faculty at a DO school.

So I'm sitting at work chatting with my coworker, who is also applying to medical school currently (MD only though).

She was surprised that DOs can do family medicine. I asked her what she thought DOs do, and she was like "idunno, physical therapy?"

Has anyone faced this kind of ignorance before? And most importantly does it die down in a community of medical professionals?

 

[Shinobiz11]

It's one of the drawbacks of the profession. You'll get used to constantly explaining that, no, you're not an optometrist.


Go dig up my "I am not making this up" thread for what I had to deal once for just being faculty at a DO school.

That's what you get for not being a real adcom

 

[tawnymarie]

So I'm sitting at work chatting with my coworker, who is also applying to medical school currently (MD only though).

She was surprised that DOs can do family medicine. I asked her what she thought DOs do, and she was like "idunno, physical therapy?"

Has anyone faced this kind of ignorance before? And most importantly does it die down in a community of medical professionals?

I'm not sure it's really ignorance. I'll admit anytime I've walked into a major hospital...I see MD on most name tags. When I tell people I am trying to go to DO school...It's not a backup to MD school...It's not due to low scores or grades or gpa. I genuinely want to be a DO. A few people I know who went to or are going to DO school did so for one of those reasons and unfortunately tell people that quite often who have not been exposed to a DO before so they assume those kind of doctors are "less" than an MD. THAT is the kind of ignorance I hate. I've met plenty of icky MD's. I can see someone making a wrong guess on what a DO is or does...I don't really get offended. I just give them a very long winded response on what a DO is and the difference in their training is all Usually they're intrigued Thankfully not much negativity encountered.

 

[BodyBuildingDOC]

Haha, this reminds me of last semester when my college bio professor asked where I'll be applying. I said I plan on being a DO and applying only to those schools. Without hesitation he said "oh, a DO....that's almost as good as a doctor." LoL~

 

[NYEMMED]

I recently read a article in the NYT that stated DOs make up 25% of US medical students now. Its only a matter of time before the US public recognition improves.

 

[orangeman25]

Haha, this reminds me of last semester when my college bio professor asked where I'll be applying. I said I plan on being a DO and applying only to those schools. Without hesitation he said "oh, a DO....that's almost as good as a doctor." LoL~

Are you serious? Your prof really said that? Wow.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Are you serious? Your prof really said that? Wow.

But then you get awesome people like an experience I had a month or so back.

I was in the elevator with the chair of the biochem department at the med school I work at. He was asking if I was applying to school. I said "welll... my grades were bad in undergrad. I got a really rough start. And my MCAT is a hair below average, so I wont be applying to this school (being the school I work at). So with those things in mind I started looking into DO and saw that I liked it. So I applied to 10 DO schools."
Without hesitation he commented on how he also had a rocky start, and that as far as he has seen, DOs are just as good as MD, they just dont have quite as long of a legacy behind the name.

Definitely brightened my day, especially coming from someone who is so high in the ranks of academia.


I honestly just think it depends on the person you are talking to. Some people are humble, some are arrogant. Some people are knowledgeable on the field, some are ignorant. Its just life.

 

[AvrgPreMedKid]

I have tried a whole heap of ways to educate people on this issue. Here is what I found to be most successful:

Ask them if they have a dentist. Most people will quickly give you an "of course."

Next ask them if they go to a DDS or DMD? At this point about 95% of people will scratch their head.

I then go on to explain that in essence that the DO and MD is the same thing as the dentist issue. That there are several ways to become a licensed physician in the United States but these two routes have slightly different training based upon historical differences. In practice and opportunity they can be remarkably similar.

Perfect.

 

[CUNYguy]

I've used Awsome Sauceome's explanation plenty of times and every time it gets my point across.

Fortunately for me, in NYC, I frequently run into DOs in the hospital, and in private practices.

One thing that I hate more than anything is when people try to make DO schools noticeable as a backup. I was more polarized towards allopathy at the beginning, and through reading up on osteopathy, I don't been think I'll be applying to MD schools. People should be told about osteopathy as a primary choice, not a secondary.


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[sylvanthus]

I've used Awsome Sauceome's explanation plenty of times and every time it gets my point across.

Fortunately for me, in NYC, I frequently run into DOs in the hospital, and in private practices.

One thing that I hate more than anything is when people try to make DO schools noticeable as a backup. I was more polarized towards allopathy at the beginning, and through reading up on osteopathy, I don't been think I'll be applying to MD schools. People should be told about osteopathy as a primary choice, not a secondary.


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Dude, get used to people thinking DO is a backup because it often IS, whether people are honest with themselves or not. Many times people get their MCAT back and suddenly they become passionate about the "DO philosophy." You are going to have a rough next decade if you get annoyed by this.

 

[Dreamstoo]

I wouldn't call it ignorance.
DO schools do such a poor job in recruiting/advertising. Which is unfortunate because there are tons of quality applicants that simply give up on med school or go overseas because they have no idea about DO schools.

I had very little knowledge about DO schools up until a few years ago. And I definitely didn't appreciate the equality between MD and DO physicians when it comes to scope of practice. It was SDN that eventually filled in the holes for me.

I'm sure a lot of past and current DO students were the same.

It's very sad how many personal examples who did this back in the 1990s and the early 2000s (people I have heard about through some older friends). Heck the neighbor down my street still regrets to this day for not applying to DO schools. He ended up pursuing a career outside of medicine and has told my mother that he regrets it. He wanted to be a doctor but gave up too easily because of the lack of knowledge of DOs, etc.
In terms of SDN, I felt the pre-osteopathic crowd is more nurturing and realistic with each other. I can thank a handful of people on this forum that keep me motivated. Heck, today I am having a bad day but I do remember reading people's stories here on their struggles to becoming a doctor.

 

[abolt18]

For anyone saying that it's not ignorance, might I direct you to the definition of ignorance. People in med school, or practicing doctors, or your average Joe in the street not knowing what a DO is = ignorance = lack of knowledge or information

ig·no·rance
ˈignərəns/
noun

1. lack of knowledge or information

 

[user3]

DO schools do such a poor job in recruiting/advertising. Which is unfortunate because there are tons of quality applicants that simply give up on med school or go overseas because they have no idea about DO schools.

I have always wondered why this is. Schools could definitely do a better job.

Regardless, this topic of "DO ignorance" is a multi-layered issue that could be discussed hours on end.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Dude, get used to people thinking DO is a backup because it often IS, whether people are honest with themselves or not. Many times people get their MCAT back and suddenly they become passionate about the "DO philosophy." You are going to have a rough next decade if you get annoyed by this.

I think even when DO is used as a backup (it happens) those people still usually embrace osteopathy and like some of its unique aspects.

 

[Dreamstoo]

I've used Awsome Sauceome's explanation plenty of times and every time it gets my point across.

Fortunately for me, in NYC, I frequently run into DOs in the hospital, and in private practices.

One thing that I hate more than anything is when people try to make DO schools noticeable as a backup. I was more polarized towards allopathy at the beginning, and through reading up on osteopathy, I don't been think I'll be applying to MD schools. People should be told about osteopathy as a primary choice, not a secondary.


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They are incredibly common in New York from what I've heard.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

They are incredibly common in New York from what I've heard.

I can confirm

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

It's one of the drawbacks of the profession. You'll get used to constantly explaining that, no, you're not an optometrist.


Go dig up my "I am not making this up" thread for what I had to deal once for just being faculty at a DO school.

Link for those interested:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/i-am-not-making-this-up.1049104/

 

[sylvanthus]

I think even when DO is used as a backup (it happens) those people still usually embrace osteopathy and like some of its unique aspects.

Yaaaaaa no.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Yaaaaaa no.

All the DO residents I speak too seem to like being a DO.

 

[deleted407021]

I find it interesting that people - who otherwise know nothing about the medical profession aside from the idea of MD - instantly assume anything else other than that magic "MD" is somehow inferior. I suppose it's like someone brought up eating only cupcakes for desert and finding the idea of a brownie as an alternative, to be somehow inferior to the cupcake, despite never having tried it. Yet I think it goes a bit deeper than that. People put doctors on a pedestal; they're sages as far as they're concerned. I think, to many "MD" is the terminus of social acheivement and when exposed to something like DO or, to a much lesser extent, MBBS, they immediately assume that the holder of the title at some time fell short of that coveted holy "MD". In premeds this phenomenon is also observed but with something different. They've spent the last few years of their lives, many of them, striving for a goal which they also see as being the epitome of achievement. And when exposed to something purported to be identical yet different and just slightly more achievable, they not only shelve it below the "MD", but they chastise it and reticule it for daring to be different yet trying to be the same. This is their reaction to the "DO". For some it stands for chiropractor(?) while for others it represents a strange slap in the face of their aspirations, yet all of these reactions are born of one source. Ignorance.

 

[DrEnderW]

They are incredibly common in New York from what I've heard.

Depends where. Some places and specialties, yes. Other major academic hospitals literally don't have a single DO out of hundreds of physicians (or essentially have none) with complete ignorance to the fact that there are 2 DO schools in manhattan and LI. I've firsthand experienced both sides.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

The way I found out about DO was kind of awkward... 10 years ago when I was doing my clinical rotation in nursing school, there was an elderly patient who asked her nurse to find out if a consulting physician was MD or DO after his PCP told him that he put a consult for a specialist... and when I asked the nurse about it, she told what a DO is. That nurse was informed come to think of it now because after I became a nurse I was amazed to find out that most of the nurses that I worked with don't know what a DO is...

 

[CUNYguy]

Depends where. Some places and specialties, yes. Other major academic hospitals literally don't have a single DO out of hundreds of physicians (or essentially have none) with complete ignorance to the fact that there are 2 DO schools in manhattan and LI. I've firsthand experienced both sides.

I would say that from the PCPs and other FP/IM physicians that refer their patients to the cardiology practice that I work for, that they're torn 50/50, and if it's not a clean tear, I would say a lot operate freely with MSNPs or RPA-Cs, or alongside other MD FP/IMs.

Most people in the hospital that I volunteer at don't really care about credentials, because everyone calls this physician Dr. So-and-So.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

This really isn't that surprising. DO schools didn't really have a ton of exposure to the general public until recently. Go back <20yrs and there were only like 15-16 DO schools that collectively produced less than 1700 graduates per year. DOs even now barely represent 10% of practicing physicians. On top of that the distribution of DOs is not uniform nationally.

Its hard enough to find someone in college that even knows 10 docs, let alone whether one was a DO. If I didn't grow up in a family with medical professionals and didn't find this site, I wouldn't really know what DOs were either. Even with that kind of exposure I didn't really learn about them until I was halfway into college. Usually enough medical professonals interact with DOs on rotations and in hospitals, but some manage to get through all of medical school and residency without really interacting with DOs.

That said, I think this type of thing will only happen less. DO grads are currently 1/5 of all US medical grads, and they may get to 1/4 in the next 5 yrs. In time this will correlate to a 15-20% of all practicing US physician population.

I was 25 until I learned that DOs even existed. It was by coincidence too. I was talking to a psychiatrist at work, and I commented that I was going to apply to med school but it was so hard to get into a close one (I'm from SF). He said "Are you going to apply to the DO school in Vallejo?" and it went from there.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

I have tried a whole heap of ways to educate people on this issue. Here is what I found to be most successful:

Ask them if they have a dentist. Most people will quickly give you an "of course."

Next ask them if they go to a DDS or DMD? At this point about 95% of people will scratch their head.

I then go on to explain that in essence that the DO and MD is the same thing as the dentist issue. That there are several ways to become a licensed physician in the United States but these two routes have slightly different training based upon historical differences. In practice and opportunity they can be remarkably similar.

I've used this a few times. It works great.

 

[Jamie561]

It really shows their level of intelligence, understanding of medicine, and naivety. Just ignore it, and chuckle to yourself (or respectfully correct them if they are interested in knowing).

I'm an avid sports fan, and athlete. It would be like me asking you "Have you ever done an Ironman? Do you even know what it is?" Then you respond with, "Err no, is that like the Tour de France?"

Most people who care about triathlon or sports as a topic have some idea what consists of an Ironman. In that case, I would chuckle to myself as you clearly have a very low interest/intelligence when it comes to triathlon or sports.

Lack of intelligence is a bit rough

 

[orangeman25]

Actually I'm going to completely disregard my coworkers words. On medicine period.

They just said they want to do emergency medicine for a couple years before "moving on" to neurosurgery. Lulz whaaaa?

 

[CUNYguy]

Actually I'm going to completely disregard my coworkers words. On medicine period.

They just said they want to do emergency medicine for a couple years before "moving on" to neurosurgery. Lulz whaaaa?

I was actually thinking of being an Emergency ENT neurology electrophysiology interventional radiologist before I turn 32.


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