DO Match List Thread 2020

[zero0]

I can at least see a non-surgical person making that assumption. Heck I’ll be the first to admit I only have vague ideas about what goes on in PM&R and I’ve no clue if I’m ever going to be taught anything about the entire field of rad/onc. But I’m talking about people legitimately considering these fields not realizing they have to through IM lol.

The BEST one of these cases ever (and I’ll stop derailing after this...maybe) was the chick who halfway through first year realized residency is a thing. That’s right. She really thought you just put in 4 years of med school and then apply to job opening in whatever field you want like any other job. She thought if you want to live in city X and there’s no openings in derm you just do cardiology for a while.

She immediately dropped out once she realized her error.

I can't say I'm shocked.
We're sitting in OMM lab end of 2nd f@cking year getting lectured on applying to residency (coming from my administration that's a joke in and of itself, but I digress) when the professor asks "how many of you didn't know you had to do residency after med school?" Lo and behold, to my horror, about 10 out of 75 people raise their hand. I just sat there, my jaw on the floor. I just couldn't hide the "holy f#ck you people are going to be responsible for people's lives one day, you just can't be this stupid" look on my face.

Anyway less fap fap more matchy match

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[Peach Newport]

I know several as well, I have changed my mind on how many apps a DO should be doing for psych, it should be over 100 with a goal of 20 interviews it’s the only way to be safe.

This, this, 100% this. IMO Long gone are the days when 9-12 was an appropriate length rank list for psych. Given some of the stuff I’ve seen this year and last, 16-20 should be considered minimum, and for the love of god, make sure at least half your list are “safeties” where DOs regularly match. Even some MDs I met on the trail in January told me they listened to their advisors who told them “you’re an MD with a 235 step 1 and no research, you’re good for mid/top tier psych” and they ended up with like 6 interviews.

 

[Spectreman]

Man, what did he do, does he have patents??

No man I am really good friends with him, he had below avg scores for ortho. He’s not that kind of guy. He is just a super hard working dude who knows ortho like mad.
Maybe top 1% type for pubs and CV? His name is on all of LaPrade’s work from that timespan too, so he has over 100 hard hitting pubs and several text books. LaPrade is a fellowship director for complex knee, has many procedures named after him, guy operates in NBA stars and Olympic athletes. It’s no joke, does not compare to your avg MD app in any way. Maybe an Ivy League MD app for other fields... maybe.

 

[Peach Newport]

Correct me if im wrong but not for solid mid tier Uni IM on the east coast which is my goal. Places like gtown, wake, brown categorical youll need more like 235-245 avg step 1 is what I have seen based on my research. Shooting for as high a Step 1 as possible just because I mean why wouldnt you shoot for your best and its always good to overcompensate with a test as important as that at this point in my training

Yeah you got it mostly. 225 is often fine for university based IM in a relatively undesirable area, especially small midwestern university med schools with relatively little brand name recognition. You’ll probably find a few big city university IM programs that will interview you also, but these will almost certainly be IMG/FMG heavy places that have... unpleasant reputations.

Matching a desirable university IM program in a big city is gonna take real scores, research, charisma, and connections. I’m sure SDN has other stories but the only people I know who matched uni IM, at a well-regarded institution, in a relatively desirable area, had at least 240+ and real research. Matching elite university IM is, at least nowadays, not happening as a DO.

 

[slowthai]

No man I am really good friends with him, he had below avg scores for ortho. He’s not that kind of guy. He is just a super hard working dude who knows ortho like mad.
Maybe top 1% type for pubs and CV? His name is on all of LaPrade’s work from that timespan too, so he has over 100 hard hitting pubs and several text books. LaPrade is a fellowship director for complex knee, has many procedures named after him, guy operates in NBA stars and Olympic athletes. It’s no joke, does not compare to your avg MD app in any way. Maybe an Ivy League MD app for other fields... maybe.

Wow, incredible. Thanks for the info.

 

[cjcarter]

I know several as well, I have changed my mind on how many apps a DO should be doing for psych, it should be over 100 with a goal of 20 interviews it’s the only way to be safe.

Idk about this. We had at least 13 people match psych this year and each applied to 50-70 programs and netted 10-15 interviews. These stories of people with 240+ step 1, good ECs, etc and didn’t match really makes me think they either had a bad LOR, did not interview well, or only applied to top competitive programs.

 

[ERK123]

This, this, 100% this. IMO Long gone are the days when 9-12 was an appropriate length rank list for psych. Given some of the stuff I’ve seen this year and last, 16-20 should be considered minimum, and for the love of god, make sure at least half your list are “safeties” where DOs regularly match. Even some MDs I met on the trail in January told me they listened to their advisors who told them “you’re an MD with a 235 step 1 and no research, you’re good for mid/top tier psych” and they ended up with like 6 interviews.

As somebody who just matched psych, claiming that 16-20 interviews should be the "minimum" for psych is insane unless the student is a very poor interviewer and is unable to adequately convey their interest in psych. There are always going to be some students with 10+ or even 16+ interviews that do not match, and psych has a slightly higher number of those than other specialities (according to the 2018 data). However, we cannot know what led to those people not matching. Some of those students may not have matched psych with 30 interviews due to how they come across in interviews or auditions. If a student wants to shoot for 16-20 interviews then that is their decision. Only 12/317 DO psych applicants had 16+ interviews in 2018. Attaining so many interviews is a difficult goal that is unlikely to be reached by the vast majority of applicants who end up matching psych.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Yeah you got it mostly. 225 is often fine for university based IM in a relatively undesirable area, especially small midwestern university med schools with relatively little brand name recognition. You’ll probably find a few big city university IM programs that will interview you also, but these will almost certainly be IMG/FMG heavy places that have... unpleasant reputations.

Matching a desirable university IM program in a big city is gonna take real scores, research, charisma, and connections. I’m sure SDN has other stories but the only people I know who matched uni IM, at a well-regarded institution, in a relatively desirable area, had at least 240+ and real research. Matching elite university IM is, at least nowadays, not happening as a DO.

Elite as in top tier? Or programs like Gtown and Wake which are mid tier. Gtown is big city and desirable location but several DOs matched Gtown IM this year actually. One of them went to my school and they didnt have real research that I know of

 

[Peach Newport]

As somebody who just matched psych, claiming that 16-20 interviews should be the "minimum" for psych is insane unless the student is a very poor interviewer and is unable to adequately convey their interest in psych. There are always going to be some students with 10+ or even 16+ interviews that do not match, and psych has a slightly higher number of those than other specialities (according to the 2018 data). However, we cannot know what led to those people not matching. Some of those students may not have matched psych with 30 interviews due to how they come across in interviews or auditions. If a student wants to shoot for 16-20 interviews then that is their decision. Only 12/317 DO psych applicants had 16+ interviews in 2018. Attaining so many interviews is a difficult goal that is unlikely to be reached by the vast majority of applicants who end up matching psych.

I will admit that I don’t have the data for this - charting outcomes 2020 might back me up, or it won’t. But I think it would be extremely misguided for applicants to ignore the changes that have happened in psych since 2018.

As for you comment, 12 applicants ranked 16 contiguous programs in 2017-18, not 16 interviews.

I believe it would be very foolish to use 2018 numbers. Most PDs on the trail remarked at how dramatically the applicant pool changed in the last 2 years and how much more competitive the field has gotten. A few mentioned that they needed to change their entire recruitment and ranking process.

 

[diesel2202]

Elite as in top tier? Or programs like Gtown and Wake which are mid tier. Gtown is big city and desirable location but several DOs matched Gtown IM this year actually. One of them went to my school and they didnt have real research that I know of

220-230 step 1 seemed to be the sweet spot for getting a decent number of mid tier university interviews. Sure there are people below that or even without step 1 who can snag solid interviews but likely not the quantity as those with 220+ step. Many also had something additional, whether it was research, previous work experience, significant leadership role, etc.

 

[Robotfishbrain]

This, this, 100% this. IMO Long gone are the days when 9-12 was an appropriate length rank list for psych. Given some of the stuff I’ve seen this year and last, 16-20 should be considered minimum, and for the love of god, make sure at least half your list are “safeties” where DOs regularly match. Even some MDs I met on the trail in January told me they listened to their advisors who told them “you’re an MD with a 235 step 1 and no research, you’re good for mid/top tier psych” and they ended up with like 6 interviews.

Almost no one gets 16-20 interviews and you are just spewing alarmist information with nothing to back it up. Please stop. Everything you are saying is incorrect and I have addressed these in my previous posts. Anecdotal information is non-sense and should not be used to discuss the prospect of an entire specialty.

 

[ritts]

Updates on LECOM matches (all campuses)

Anesthesiology
Cleveland Clinic
UT Houston
AGH
Case Western- UH-CMC x2
Mayo Clinic Jacksonville
Medical College of Wisconsin
Westchester Medical Center
Thomas Jefferson
Penn State

Child Neurology
Tufts Medical Center

Diagnostic Radiology
USF
Ohio State University
AGH
Maryland
Cincinnati
Minnesota
George Washington

Dermatology
Larkin

Emergency Medicine
UF
UCF
Medical College of Georgia
UF Jacksonville
Orlando Health
USF- Oak Hill
Desert Regional Medical Center x2
UPMC Pinnacle
UPMC Hamot
Geisinger
Buffalo x2
AGH x2

Family Medicine
Northwestern
Rowan
Medstar/Georgetown
Colorado- Swedish
Wright State
UPMC Shadyside
ECU- Vidant
Penn State

General Surgery
UPMC Pinnacle x2
Mercy St. Vincent- Toledo

Internal Medicine
AGH
Cooper
UC Riverside
Northwell Hofstra Staten Island
USF
UF Jacksonville x2
Nebraska
Kent Hospital/ Brown University
UPMC Pinnacle
Carilion Clinic
MSU McLaren
Rowan
Penn State
UF Gainesville

Med-Peds
LSU- NO

Interventional Radiology
Rutgers RWJ
USF
Henry Ford

Neurology
Rutgers RWJ
Cincinnati
Kaiser Permanente LA
Geisinger

OB/GYN
UC San Francisco- Fresno
UCF HCA

Ophthalmology
HCA-West
St. John's Episcopal

Orthopaedic Surgery
MSU McLaren
Eisenhower Army Medical Center
Broward
Jack Hughston Memorial
East Tennessee State University

Otolaryngology
Detroit Medical Center
UPMC Hamot

Pathology
Arkansas
Tennessee
Cleveland

Pediatrics
UPMC
Tufts Medical Center
Penn State
Nemours

PM&R
Cincinnati x2
Nebraska
NYU Grossman
UNC Chapel Hill
New Mexico

Psychiatry
University of Arizona
USF x3
AGH
Albany Medical Center x2
Toledo

Urology
MSU McLaren
Franciscan Health Olympia Fields
Naval Medical Center San Diego

 

[deleted1041468]

Idk about this. We had at least 13 people match psych this year and each applied to 50-70 programs and netted 10-15 interviews. These stories of people with 240+ step 1, good ECs, etc and didn’t match really makes me think they either had a bad LOR, did not interview well, or only applied to top competitive programs.

Same we had good matches for the scores that the students had. They definitely didn’t apply over a hundred places. Maybe it’s luck. Maybe it’s connections. Who knows.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Way more ortho this year than I was anticipating. Keep up the good work fellas!

 

[Deecee2DO]

220-230 step 1 seemed to be the sweet spot for getting a decent number of mid tier university interviews. Sure there are people below that or even without step 1 who can snag solid interviews but likely not the quantity as those with 220+ step. Many also had something additional, whether it was research, previous work experience, significant leadership role, etc.

Im surprised they had that kind of success with step in the 220s. Mid tier Unis avg is high 230s low 240s i thought at least thats what Ive heard from SDN and Frieda

 

[recycledpaper]

Why are people psych is competitive? Looks to me you can match it without even taking Step.

 

[Azmkv]

Why are people psych is competitive? Looks to me you can match it without even taking Step.

Good pay + good lifestyle = competitive

 

[Deecee2DO]

Good pay + good lifestyle = competitive

I don't understand why people are saying Psych is the new derm. Correct me if I'm wrong but Psych avg salary is under 300K/year. Derm avg is like 400K+. I agree good lifestyle but the salary of Psych (250-300K) to my knowledge is not THAT much better than primary care (225-250Kish depending on location). I've never heard of anyone going into psych because the money is so good just the lifestyle is amazing. I would go as far as to say Allergy has better pay and lifestyle than Psych

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I don't understand why people are saying Psych is the new derm. Correct me if I'm wrong but Psych avg salary is under 300K/year. Derm avg is like 400K+. I agree good lifestyle but the salary of Psych (250-300K) to my knowledge is not THAT much better than primary care (225-250Kish depending on location). I've never heard of anyone going into psych because the money is so good just the lifestyle is amazing. I would go as far as to say Allergy has better pay and lifestyle than Psych

In midwest cities psych docs def making 300k+ while working 35-40hours. The docs at my rotations were make 400k and never worked a weekend. academic jobs and big coastal cities brings down that average. On a hour bases psych pay is similar to gen surgery.

 

[Deecee2DO]

In midwest cities psych docs def making 300k+ while working 35-40hours. The docs at my rotations were make 400k and never worked a weekend. academic jobs and big coastal cities brings down that average. On a hour bases psych pay is similar to gen surgery.

Holy smokes. I didnt know that. I see why then thanks for your insight

 

[navigator]

.... Match rate was around 65% and I have not seen a single match on this thread where I thought "wow that's a strong academic program." Some of this may be a symptom of program preference (I matched to a super strong community program and had 4 solid academic programs lower on my list)

Dude hold up. You can still match somewhere in OB with below average scores and no research. Comparing it to ortho is going to give some poor OB gunner an aneurysm when they read that.

I think a bigger problem is too many people are still giving advice about matching OB like it’s 10 years ago and you just needed a pulse to get in.

My school (TCOM) got some solid matches at UMKC, JPS, and Vanderbilt, too!

 

[Kardio]

Why are people psych is competitive? Looks to me you can match it without even taking Step.

In midwest cities psych docs def making 300k+ while working 35-40hours. The docs at my rotations were make 400k and never worked a weekend. academic jobs and big coastal cities brings down that average. On a hour bases psych pay is similar to gen surgery.

Holy smokes. I didnt know that. I see why then thanks for your insight

2019 Review of Physician and Advanced Practitioner Recruiting Incentives by Merritt Hawkins

 

[Deecee2DO]

View attachment 299953

2019 Review of Physician and Advanced Practitioner Recruiting Incentives by Merritt Hawkins

Yeah thats what I was referring to was merritt but apparently this thread is saying these figures are being brought down by academic psych salaries

 

[Kardio]

Yeah thats what I was referring to was merritt but apparently this thread is saying these figures are being brought down by academic psych salaries

Overall average is 270, high is 400 [Table 9]
Northeast average is 260, midwest is 300 [Table 10]
Academic average is 230, group is 290 [Table 11]

I'm assuming that non-academic gigs in the midwest are the ones paying close to the "high" end

 

[Epilepsy365]

Yeah thats what I was referring to was merritt but apparently this thread is saying these figures are being brought down by academic psych salaries

Since I have matched and do not care anymore, the same concept applies to Neuro as well, considering that 90% of real life Neurology is done outpatient.

 

[Scrubs101]

10 ortho matches from MSUCOM:
2 mclaren oakland
3 beaumont farmington hills
1 university of buffalo
1 metro health in wyoming (MI)
1 henry ford macomb
1 mclaren lansing
1 texas tech

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

10 ortho matches from MSUCOM:
2 mclaren oakland
3 beaumont farmington hills
1 university of buffalo
1 metro health in wyoming (MI)
1 henry ford macomb
1 mclaren lansing
1 texas tech

Solid work. How many applied?

 

[recycledpaper]

I get that psychiatry is making good money for not a lot of work hours. That makes the specialty desirable.

But my question is why is psych competitive? What sort of average acceptance numbers are we talking here?

 

[Kardio]

why is psych competitive?

psychiatry is making good money for not a lot of work hours. That makes the specialty desirable.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Since I have matched and do not care anymore, the same concept applies to Neuro as well, considering that 90% of real life Neurology is done outpatient.

Makes sense. Congrats on the match man. You matched Psych?

 

[NeuroPsych999]

I get that psychiatry is making good money for not a lot of work hours. That makes the specialty desirable.

But my question is why is psych competitive? What sort of average acceptance numbers are we talking here?

2018 charting outcomes for DO's: 72.5% of applicants with first choice (preferred) of Psychiatry matched in the field. As other users have stated, the competition for Psych has definitely increased within the past two years. There's an increasing flux of more competitive applicants and US MD's. Furthermore, less IMGs are matching Psych.

 

[Scrubs101]

Solid work. How many applied?

No clue TBH, tough to keep track of with multiple campuses and base hospitals. I’ll update ya if I find out, but I was caught off guard by just how many people matched into it. I think i just dont know the class well enough to put an estimate on # of apps lol but ill ask around

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

10 ortho matches from MSUCOM:
2 mclaren oakland
3 beaumont farmington hills
1 university of buffalo
1 metro health in wyoming (MI)
1 henry ford macomb
1 mclaren lansing
1 texas tech

I want to point out something. People like to claim that all DO schools are created equal. This right here shows how wrong that thinking is. MSU had 10 ortho matches and 8 of those are to MSU ortho residencies.... resources matter, particularly when going for something competitive.

 

[recycledpaper]

Based off 2018 charting outcomes, psychiatry is nowhere near as competitive as dermatology.

The reason I bring this up is because if there are people out there who are interested in psychiatry but are discouraged by statements like "psych is the new derm," you shouldn't be. Look at the data. Average Step 1 for psych is 226, for dermatology 249. 6.8% AOA for psych, 49% for dermatology. 15 research projects vs 5 projects. Nearly every objective measure says that psych is not as competitive as everyone is making it out to be.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

I want to point out something. People like to claim that all DO schools are created equal. This right here shows how wrong that thinking is. MSU had 10 ortho matches and 8 of those are to MSU ortho residencies.... resources matter, particularly when going for something competitive.

I’ve learned a lot from this post...

Well not about the resource thing; that **** is obvious!

But that Wyoming is a city in Michigan!

*When I first read the list, I was like, Wyoming is being pretty liberal with the word “metro.” I guess Casper can be considered a “metropolitan city.”

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I want to point out something. People like to claim that all DO schools are created equal. This right here shows how wrong that thinking is. MSU had 10 ortho matches and 8 of those are to MSU ortho residencies.... resources matter, particularly when going for something competitive.

Agreed. KCU routinely matches 5+ ortho each year with 1-2 usually going to their sponsored program in KC (St Mary's). Even proximity to other programs matter. Look how many KCU grads are in UMKC/KU programs.

 

[risus_sardonicus]

Lol psych is not the new derm. You can match psych without USMLE or research. Psych does not care about board scores. The people claiming it’s tough are the ones with high board scores who failed to match, but very likely did not fit well into the program according to PDs. “Fit” and “commitment” are probably the most important factors these programs consider and can result in a sub-500 comlex, no USMLE candidate landing a mid-tier university psych program.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[deleted1041468]

Lol psych is not the new derm. You can match psych without USMLE or research. Psych does not care about board scores. The people claiming it’s tough are the ones with high board scores who failed to match, but very likely did not fit well into the program according to PDs. “Fit” and “commitment” are probably the most important factors these programs consider and can result in a sub-500 comlex, no USMLE candidate landing a mid-tier university psych program.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Agree. Seen it happen. Know some people but everyone wants their specialties to seem competitive. Heck I tell people neuro is competitive but I reality it’s harder than family to IM but it’s not derm and surg hard lol. To me matching university was easy with 600 plus comlex.

 

[IsWhat]

Agree. Seen it happen. Know some people but everyone wants their specialties to seem competitive. Heck I tell people neuro is competitive but I reality it’s harder than family to IM but it’s not derm and surg hard lol. To me matching university was easy with 600 plus comlex.

For a long time I thought Psychiatry was crying wolf about how competitive it has become, but after going through the process and speaking with multiple PDs it is clear to me ‘the cat is out of the bag’ in regards to Psych. The quality of life and compensation are simply in another league compared to pretty much any other specialty, and the new generation of physicians want that life, from the looks of it, pretty badly.

 

[Peach Newport]

For a long time I thought Psychiatry was crying wolf about how competitive it has become, but after going through the process and speaking with multiple PDs it is clear to me ‘the cat is out of the bag’ in regards to Psych. The quality of life and compensation are simply in another league compared to pretty much any other specialty, and the new generation of physicians want that life, from the looks of it, pretty badly.

I also thought this, that the psych forums and people I met were just hyping it. But then I hit the interview trail and every single PD said the exact same thing - psych is attracting a ton of MDs from good schools with good stats, and the level of competition is going up sharply.

Some things I strongly suspect:

1) the charting outcomes 2020 for psych will show at least a moderate increase in various measures of competitiveness for psych.

2) matching community programs in less desirable areas of the country will continue to be doable for an average DO for a little while.

3) The difficulty of matching in a desirable metro area, or a well-regarded academic program, has increased significantly over the last 2 years, and will continue to increase, as the number of competitive MDs increases.

 

[Robotfishbrain]

I also thought this, that the psych forums and people I met were just hyping it. But then I hit the interview trail and every single PD said the exact same thing - psych is attracting a ton of MDs from good schools with good stats, and the level of competition is going up sharply.

Some things I strongly suspect:

1) the charting outcomes 2020 for psych will show at least a moderate increase in various measures of competitiveness for psych.

2) matching community programs in less desirable areas of the country will continue to be doable for an average DO for a little while.

3) The difficulty of matching in a desirable metro area, or a well-regarded academic program, has increased significantly over the last 2 years, and will continue to increase, as the number of competitive MDs increases.

All this is conjecture and completely opposite of what Information I’ve gathered from PDs I’ve talked to. Board cutoffs remain incredibly low. Research and activity in psych is what matters above all after you’ve reached the cutoff.

These armchair predictions are hilarious to read. What speciality won’t be a little bit more competitive? There’s nothing new here. DOs continue to match in USMLE tier 1 research centers across the country. Law of averages tells us that the higher number of applicants will draw the average scores of matched applicants to the average of the exam, but until psych shoots past 230/550 It will remain doable for DOs equal to that of mid to low tier MDs.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

1) the charting outcomes 2020 for psych will show at least a moderate increase in various measures of competitiveness for psych.

Sure, I can get on board with that.

2) matching community programs in less desirable areas of the country will continue to be doable for an average DO for a little while.

Bro, what? Lol I don't even know much about psych and can tell you that isn't true at all.

 

[Peach Newport]

Sure, I can get on board with that.


Bro, what? Lol I don't even know much about psych and can tell you that isn't true at all.

I didn’t think that last part was particularly controversial, you sure you read it correctly?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I didn’t think that last part was particularly controversial, you sure you read it correctly?

You make it sound like the only chance an average DO has to match psych is at community programs in undesirable areas, and that option might go away in the near future. The only psych applicants I know are pretty bad applicants on paper, and they by and large matched pretty decently...

 

[risus_sardonicus]

Lol dude I personally know 3 ppl in my class who matched Psych at university programs without stellar scores. They did commit to auditions though. So like i said earlier - psych is not harder it’s just unique. Psych doesn’t give a **** about your scores, they are more interested in “commitment to the field” and “fit into the program”


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[MusicDOc124]

I don't understand why people are saying Psych is the new derm. Correct me if I'm wrong but Psych avg salary is under 300K/year. Derm avg is like 400K+. I agree good lifestyle but the salary of Psych (250-300K) to my knowledge is not THAT much better than primary care (225-250Kish depending on location). I've never heard of anyone going into psych because the money is so good just the lifestyle is amazing. I would go as far as to say Allergy has better pay and lifestyle than Psych

Friends graduating from residency were receiving 400k offers. Some even including coasts and tele psych.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Friends graduating from residency were receiving 400k offers. Some even including coasts and tele psych.

Omg lol i can see the hype now. Thats fire especially with those ballin hours

 

[Epilepsy365]

Friends graduating from residency were receiving 400k offers. Some even including coasts and tele psych.

LOL and people are quoting Merrit Hawkins #s.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Omg lol i can see the hype now. Thats fire especially with those ballin hours

Psych and Neuro are hidden gems. Don't quote me on that though lol.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Psych and Neuro are hidden gems. Don't quote me on that though lol.

Cat is out of the bag for Psych. Neuro is getting there as evident by the #s this year and the available soap spots in comparison to those from previous years.