What the hell are you saying???
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DO over MD?
Started by muscme
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What the hell are you saying???
Ideally speaking, go where you will be happiest, where the location fits your life's circumstances, and where the curriculum suits your learning style. And always, always consider cost.
As for the DO vs MD issue, go shadow a DO and find this stuff out for yourself. It is one thing to read it on SDN, and it is entirely another to go to a hospital and shadow a practicing physician with a DO degree.
HAHA, I don't know. SDN is like binge drinking ... Sometimes I'll be on it for days, posting everywhere, mixing ish up, etc, then I won't touch it for a long time because I know it is bad and people start to yell things.
YES.....but only on SDN.
In my two years of working closely with a D.O. (who is under current consideration for the medical director position), I have never heard one person (patient or otherwise) ask him what D.O is or why he is not a M.D. You'll be too busy (along with everyone else) and the Patients generally have much bigger concerns than your name tag (such as why hospital food is so crappy). Don't be fooled by the whole ROAD thing. You're chances of a ROAD residency are rather small to begin with and I really believe that a lot of D.O.s don't go to med school with the idea that they will come out with a ROAD residency and therefore they dont apply as often (and there are farrrr less D.O. grads to begin with). Just do well and you'll have as good as shot as any. I want to find you this link of a surgical spine specialty clinic in NY...its run by D.O.s and only employs a few (one or two) M.D.s. Its quite an amazing place.
Interestingly enough though....I have a friend who went to Columbia for undergrad and then Harvard for grad school. He ended up at Mich State for Med School. He applied for a residency at Harvard and was denied because they do NOT consider any D.O. applicants. Funny thing is, he is an M.D. but Harvard was confused because Mich State has both M.D. and D.O. programs. He was never able to get them to reconsider. Ended up at Mayo in a plastics fellowship anyway. Moral of the story? Medicine is a bit ridiculous no matter which route you go and you will encounter challenges and setbacks (cause you surely haven't had enough of those already).
Go where you will be most happy (and with the least debt! you'll thank me later 😉).
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From one married man to a soon to be married man...I think your soon to be wife has already made the decision for you... What you should ask yourself, is will she be happier at spot A, or spot B..because in the end, when your wife is happy..your happy <---Honest to god Truth!
"To function effectively, individuals must voluntarily postpone immediate gratification and persist in goal-directed behavior for the sake of later outcomes."
-Mischel et al. 1989
I would begin by comparing the M3 curriculum between the MD and DO schools you are weighing. You will be well served doing your clerkships in an academic medical center.
In terms of residency options, odds are you will be better off going MD. A significant portion of DO grads enter the allopathic match, and they match at a lower rate than their MD counterparts. You can peruse the 2009 NRMP match data here (see Table 4 on page 9).
On a more personal note, moving across the country is daunting, but medical school is transient. It's an opportunity for some adventure, and afterwards you literally have the rest of your life to move somewhere familiar and comfortable.
All that said, if you examine the situation and feel that going DO will be the best option for you and your family, good luck with your decision!
To OP: You really need to decide what factors are most important to YOU. Is you IS DO cheaper than OS MD? (I would guess yes). As someone else said, check out the residency match list for both, even if you are thinking PC/FM.
What was the environment inside the school? Are they both PBL or systems or traditional curriculae? What is a better fit with your learning style?
How much of a support system do you need? If you are planning on having kids while in school, then definitely stay near your family. What kind of job does your fiance have/will have? Is it easily portable, or better to stay in one spot?
Only you can know how important the prestige factor is. I would think it is less of an issue (if it is even an issue) when you are doing primary care as opposed to a specialty, but I can't really see it being important once you have secured your residency spot. Just remember there is also variation between schools across DO & MD anyway (i.e. bottom 5 versus top 5).
Personally, I withdrew my DO applications once I got an MD acceptance. I really had no interest in the osteomanipulation and am really geared towards surgery, so I thought it was a better route (plus I really liked the school I got into).
What was the environment inside the school? Are they both PBL or systems or traditional curriculae? What is a better fit with your learning style?
How much of a support system do you need? If you are planning on having kids while in school, then definitely stay near your family. What kind of job does your fiance have/will have? Is it easily portable, or better to stay in one spot?
Only you can know how important the prestige factor is. I would think it is less of an issue (if it is even an issue) when you are doing primary care as opposed to a specialty, but I can't really see it being important once you have secured your residency spot. Just remember there is also variation between schools across DO & MD anyway (i.e. bottom 5 versus top 5).
Personally, I withdrew my DO applications once I got an MD acceptance. I really had no interest in the osteomanipulation and am really geared towards surgery, so I thought it was a better route (plus I really liked the school I got into).
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you have a yearning to get back into your mother's womb!!
lol!!!
wrong. wrong. wrong. must. stop. posting.
this is the SDN bias I am talking about. Anyone who says that "it's important that a person fully understands that they will be perceived differently by a number of patients" in regards to a D.O. degree has no clue what the real world is like. Come back and post your thoughts once your 5-10yrs out of residency (or when your direct supervisor is a D.O., or your patient leaves you to seek care under a D.O.).
What was I saying about the Patients caring about the qaulity of hospital food....or the Patients arguing with you about what the read on webMD or why they cant go smoke a cigarette while hooked up to telemetry? Oh yeah, that Patients are wayyyyyy more concerned about generally everything than whatever is on your name tag. Hell, if they even remember your name after a 30 minute consultation, you're on a good track. 👍
I think you should at least have a look into the residency programs in your area/near your hometown (DO and MD). I think I saw somewhere in this thread that you are interested in primary care, so it probably won't be much of a concern.
Anyway, if your reasons for not going MD are to stay in/near your hometown, there would be there's no point in staying near your hometown for 4 years if you are going to have to move elsewhere for residency anyway.
The ones who don't match are academically less qualified than the rest of the applicants, plain and simple. They wouldn't have matched to their ranklist regardless of whether they were an MD or DO. Students who take the USMLE and do well, and have mostly honors on their transcript, research, and LORs from well known doctors in the field will fare just fine (assuming they're not applying only to allo derm, neurosurg, etc).
With all due respect, I beg to differ. Medical school and residency will be the most stressful times in your life. Having familiarity of your surroundings, with family and friends close by to support you can make those difficult times infinitely easier to cope with.
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this forum is now dumber for having read to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuBHzJ5LrXE
I completely agree with you Jagger. You can't go around generalizing FOR other people.
They are YOUR friends, Borne, and since they are your friends, they might know a thing or too more than the "average" person since you are pursuing the medical route. You can't assume that your friends are "average" because they don't go to college or some other BS. A good majority of the US population is Hispanic and I can bet you that many of them can't even begin to describe to you the differences between a DO and an MD. Coming from a Hispanic background and community, I have seen sooo many cases where these people don't even know who to contact to receive BASIC care. So, my point is, stop assuming you know what the "average" American knows because you don't have the slightest clue.
As far as DO vs MD, I don't think you should worry so much about prestige OP. If you want to practice medicine and that is your passion, it shouldn't matter. If those "initials" at the end of your name tag are that important to you, maybe you should reconsider your desire to become a doctor because last I checked, doctors care about helping people. Besides, it's already difficult as it is to get into an MD schools. And a good majority of those who do get into med school have been privileged some way in there lives. They haven't had to worry about maintaining a family or working several jobs to pay for school. If they don't have to worry about anything like that, obviously they have more time to dedicate to their studies. Does that mean an under-privileged person shouldn't have that opportunity, even though they are fully capable, because they have had other priorities? Of course not! Case in point, if DO schools do accept average and slightly below average applicants, that doesn't take anything away from the fact that their goals are to make good doctors. Since MD requirements are almost impossible as it is, it's nice to know that some people still require the human element in an applicant. Because as far as I know, we are going to treating people and we are working for people.
it comes down to this
any MD from US medical school >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DO
now DO slightly more > MD from SGU or Ross
simple
any MD from US medical school >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DO
now DO slightly more > MD from SGU or Ross
simple
well I dont know what I want to do in medicine later.. BUT looking at NRMP data if you are an MD from an LCME school (not DO) you have statistically a very good chance of matching into some of these (especially cards)
in your opinion
I think someone who gets a 270 on their boards regardless of the degree will be looked on more favorably than someone with a 200 (or a fail)
For someone advocating for the equality of non-science majors, you don't seem particularly open-minded towards people who become physicians through schools that are slightly different.
Cardiology is a fellowship that has little to do with where you went to school and more to do with where you do your residency, publications, and inservice exams/step3. You have a poor chance at matching into derm, rad/onc, neurosurgery no matter where you go or what you do. You are misinformed.
Generalizing and completely incorrect.
Pre-meds will argue about anything.
I disagree with your assessment that if you care about your initials, you somehow don't care about "helping people." You've spent many years trying to get into med school. You have to live with yourself in whatever career you choose, be it medicine, law, business, whatever. If people want to go to a DO school as their first choice or their second choice, that's their business. The same goes for MD schools. You will spend the next 4 decades of your life being in the profession. I won't begrudge someone else for trying to get exactly what they want: MD, DO or whatever else. I don't believe getting what you want and not settling will somehow make you a less caring physician. And yes, for some, DO is settling.
Have you ever worked at a hospital before? Again, neither I, my colleagues, nor any of the preceptors and residents I've worked with have encountered this scenario you are talking about. Zero DO's that I've worked with have had to qualify or explain themselves at the hospitals I have rotated at. Patients just want to be taken care of and they don't give a crap about whether you are an MD or DO. I have no idea where this myth comes from. In the past, I have encountered a couple of people, in an area what wasn't very DO-heavy, who weren't familiar with it and were curious, but that was the extent of it.
Good luck with that. You do know that the Latin root for "doctor" means teacher, right? Part of the role implies educating patients. BTW, brace yourself, because there's nothing really easy about the path to becoming a physician.
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If you want an MD degree than by all means go for it. I don't think anybody gives a damn. If that's what gets you up in the morning, to have an "MD" after your name, then I'm happy for you. I don't want anyone to settle, if they can help it. To each their own. I'm not going to sit here and waste my time convincing someone to pursue the DO degree when they really want an MD after their name. I just don't like it when people, especially those who haven't spent one day working at a hospital or even a medical school classroom, spew verbal diarrhea and spread ignorance about DO's and osteopathic medicine. There's more to life than "my dick is bigger than yours." Sigh. 🙄
I have worked at what's considered the best private hospital in the city I lived in at the time. The doctors there do wear white coats and they do have their degrees after their name. I never saw a DO. So there were none to talk to about whether patients ask them about it. At the school I go to there are extremely few DOs on faculty.
Sure, that's fine. I can understand that and don't fault you for not knowing. I have no problem with lack of information. That can be easily solved, as long as one is open to learning.
As we have already established, DO's are still the minority amongst physicians. They are, however, rapidly growing. Some areas have fewer DO's than others and some areas may have a significantly higher concentration. I have been in hospitals with relatively few DO's, but even then, I've never seen a patient question the degree or even ask about it. I'm sure it does happen on occasion, but I don't think it's as prevalent as many people think or assume. Whether you are a DO or MD, you have a job to do and a lot of patients to see. Nobody cares. Everyone works together to get the job done.
This.
EVERYONE in medicine is important, from the docs to the lab scientists to the techs. You don't have someone doing their job, everything falls apart. Since MD & DO = SAME JOB, as long as they do well that is all that matters.
...And are team-players. That matters too. We are all playing in the same sandbox. Be nice.
Just wondering, but I've seen several physicians in my area who have both MD and DO degrees...how does this happen? I can't believe anyone would put themselves through 4 extra years of schooling for virtually the same degrees?
Just a fun little anecdote...
At our orientation at KCOM (DO school) one of the speakers told a story about how when he was a kid he went to a DO, as DOs are the large majority in Kirksville for obvious reasons. Well he went along with his grandmother to a MD in Columbia and he said "Grandma, I thought you said we were going to see a doctor..."
All depends on your location and what you know. In some areas the only doctors are DOs and I don't see a higher rate of death/illness/malpractice/etc based on them being "lesser" physicians. But, maybe I'm just biased being a OMS I. 🙂
Go to a school that will make you happy and will be the best fit for your situation. Trust me, if I had the option to be close to family and friends during school, I would take it in a heartbeat, regardless MD/DO. Best of luck w/ your decison.
At our orientation at KCOM (DO school) one of the speakers told a story about how when he was a kid he went to a DO, as DOs are the large majority in Kirksville for obvious reasons. Well he went along with his grandmother to a MD in Columbia and he said "Grandma, I thought you said we were going to see a doctor..."
All depends on your location and what you know. In some areas the only doctors are DOs and I don't see a higher rate of death/illness/malpractice/etc based on them being "lesser" physicians. But, maybe I'm just biased being a OMS I. 🙂
Go to a school that will make you happy and will be the best fit for your situation. Trust me, if I had the option to be close to family and friends during school, I would take it in a heartbeat, regardless MD/DO. Best of luck w/ your decison.
Just have to add: The egg came first! Birds evolved from reptilian ancestors who laid eggs.
Fun tidbit 😉
MD>>>>>>>>>>DO in public's view. Enough said
I thought Jebus put birds in the garden of eden??
I'm only kidding ...
Did Hunter S. Thompson tell you that? 😀
Please read things before you post ... half this discussion has been about how this is untrue because the public is absolutely clueless when it comes to medicine.
I wish ...
I recently switched to pre-med aspirations, won't go into detail about that. But I have about a 3.56 currently and have yet to take most of the chemistry/physics pre-reqs. I was pretty depressed a few weeks ago when I came to this forum and was told that DO was going to be my only option due to my low GPA because I initially had a bunch of misconceptions about it which I had absorbed from some college peers and honestly from a lot of threads I had read on this forum. Additionally my bf attendeda holiday party with his extended family (most of which whom I've never met) which is comprised of several doctors and a ph.d in public health who consults for kaiser, and basically he told the entire group that my GPA was too low for allopathic so I had been looking at DO. I was and still am pretty mortified, mostly about the bash on my GPA.
Anyhow this long babbling rant is just to say that after doing some actual research, and some not so verifiable internet searches, as well as talking to some doctors and nurses etc I've already dropped down my bias by a considerable amount. But I am not planning on going into a terribly competative residency... so...
Good luck with your decision OP and I hope you are able to make the choice that's the best fit for your goals and lifestyle!
Anyhow this long babbling rant is just to say that after doing some actual research, and some not so verifiable internet searches, as well as talking to some doctors and nurses etc I've already dropped down my bias by a considerable amount. But I am not planning on going into a terribly competative residency... so...
Good luck with your decision OP and I hope you are able to make the choice that's the best fit for your goals and lifestyle!
How would the public favor MD over DO if the public does not know what a DO is? There's the conundrum.
Ummm 3.56 + good MCAT and you should be fine for Allo.
Who ever you heard that from is full of ****.
60% of applicants with your GPA get into Allopathic medschool. Average acceptance rate for all GPAs and MCAT scores is 50%. You're slightly above average.
Do well on the MCAT and rack up some solid EC's and clinic hours and you're golden.
Yeah there was pretty much an entire 3 page thread telling me to give up on allo haha. I've since learned that was entirely untrue as well. But I'm still exploring both MD and DO options! That was my overall point!
Both are solid options and with a competitive MCAT score, you should get offers from both.
Like most of the questions on SDN, there's no real right answer. Things to think about concerning your DO acceptances, though -- do you like the schools? How are clinicals arranged? Are they at hospitals with affiliated residency programs or are they preceptorship-based? Can you do them in the same location where you do basic sciences, or are you going to have to move after 2nd year? How happy are the students with the clinical rotations? Everyone has a decent 1st and 2nd year -- it's 3rd and 4th year that matter. It also makes sense to ask these questions about the allopathic school that accepted you.
As for MD v. DO, that's an age-old SDN debate. For most people, a DO degree works as well for them as an MD, and no, DOs don't make less money in the same specialties. However, if you decide later (people change their mind) that you want a ROAD type of specialty, MD is probably better. Anesthesia and radiology are somewhat open to DOs, but allopathic derm isn't going to happen. Of course, it won't happen for most MD students either, so eh. As for the more open specialties, some of the top academic programs on the coasts (UCLA, UCSF, Columbia, Harvard, etc.. ) might be closed off to you in any specialty. But again, they're not open to all allopathic grads either. So yes, discrimination exists in some pockets, and yes, some doors will close automatically regardless of your performance if you go the DO route. However, for most people, it probably won't affect your life/career.
As for MD v. DO, that's an age-old SDN debate. For most people, a DO degree works as well for them as an MD, and no, DOs don't make less money in the same specialties. However, if you decide later (people change their mind) that you want a ROAD type of specialty, MD is probably better. Anesthesia and radiology are somewhat open to DOs, but allopathic derm isn't going to happen. Of course, it won't happen for most MD students either, so eh. As for the more open specialties, some of the top academic programs on the coasts (UCLA, UCSF, Columbia, Harvard, etc.. ) might be closed off to you in any specialty. But again, they're not open to all allopathic grads either. So yes, discrimination exists in some pockets, and yes, some doors will close automatically regardless of your performance if you go the DO route. However, for most people, it probably won't affect your life/career.
come on, man. what are you basing this on? admissions? there are a lot of US MD schools that are easier to get into than DO schools. if you're in-state in less competitive states (e.g. WV, AL, AZ, AR, CO, HI, KS, SC, KY, MS, etc.) then you have a damn good shot at getting in to IS schools. E.g. You got a 40% chance of geting into WVU if you're in state. (And 68% chance of getting an interview). if you're IS in AZ, you're guaranteed an interview. Let's be serious. In less competitive states, you got anywhere from 20-42% straight odds of getting in. that's VERY high.
now if you're in cali, like me, then you're screwed for IS schools.
