DO seems way more competitive

[mathnerd88]

I read your post SON, and i know exactly what I'm about.

Sure you do. Wait a couple more years. Let me know what kind of physician you'll be.

You graduated college in 2006. You're entering medical school in 2015. You're probably 32, which means you'll be at least 40 when you become a practicing physician. Let me know how you do in ten years ok?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Gandyy]

Yo guys, I've talked to both of you individually on this forum.. You are both more level headed than this.

Right? Just agree to disagree lol

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Lol...you were quoting average emergency physicians. Sorry to burst your bubble, but most DO's go into primary care.

Family medicine physicians make $78 an hour.

In that article the lowest figure as of 2010 was 77.00. Still higher than your figure, and as I mentioned, there are ways to eliminate Med school debt completely.

 

[mathnerd88]

In that article the lowest figure as of 2010 was 77.00. Still higher than your figure, and as I mentioned, there are ways to eliminate Med school debt completely.

I never said there wasn't. I'm talking about the DO physician here. Most of them go into Family Medicine or Primary Care, and hourly salary is about $77-90.

Look, I'm not trying to start an argument with you. I just expressed my views, and there's no need for attacking just because my views differ from yours. People can take my views with a grain of salt.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

I never said there wasn't. I'm talking about the average medical student here.

The average med student has every opportunity to take advantage of these programs, in fact many of these opportunities go unfilled because people dont want to take it or dont know about it.

 

[mathnerd88]

The average med student has every opportunity to take advantage of these programs, in fact many of these opportunities go unfilled because people dont want to take it or dont know about it.

Same with pretty much almost every profession? Some companies will even pay for your MBA if you know where to look.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

I never said there wasn't. I'm talking about the DO physician here. Most of them go into Family Medicine or Primary Care, and hourly salary is about $77-90.

Look, I'm not trying to start an argument with you. I just expressed my views, and there's no need for attacking just because my views differ from yours.

And that is still more than the average PA.

I've told you I'm not doing this because I disagree with you, i do it because you give BAD advice and in general don't know what you are talking about. There is s difference.

 

[mathnerd88]

And that is still more than the average PA.

With a lot more schooling and studying 10-12 hours per day...and a lot more exams.

You're already making better than 95% of the population with a PA salary. For most people that's already enough. It's up to you whether you feel that spending two more years of school and 4 more years of residency is worth it making that much more than a PA.

Don't forget, when you're a resident, you're going to be working crazy odd hour shifts for little pay.

My point is that there are other professions out that are better financially and on your health. For people who think physicians are all about money, they're in for a huge surprise.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Same with pretty much almost every profession? Some companies will even pay for your MBA if you know where to look.

This situation is rare and and is becoming more and more unheard of. Not only that but MBAs are becoming so easy to get the next step might be putting them in crackerjack boxes.

And no, this is far from the same in every profession. Do you know of any programs willing to pay off your MBA degree because of the high demand for businessmen in lower served communities?

 

[mathnerd88]

This situation is rare and and is becoming more and more unheard of. Not only that but MBAs are becoming so easy to get the next step might be putting them in crackerjack boxes.

And no, this is far from the same in every profession. Do you know of any programs willing to pay off your MBA degree because of the high demand for businessmen in lower served communities?

Lol...now you're just twisting things around. I'm saying there are always programs available to people who know where to look, regardless of which professional school they want to enter.

Btw, I did look into these programs that you are talking about and asked doctors about it. They said they know doctors who did this and end up working in indian reservations in the middle of nowhere. I don't know about you, but that is not my preference. If you're okay with that, then that's perfect for you. I encourage you to apply.

I don't want to be 40 and have kids and have to move them to an underdeserved community. I'm sorry, but that's not my cup of tea. If I were single and have no family, then I would be totally for it.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

With a lot more schooling and studying 10-12 hours per day...and a lot more exams.

You're already making better than 95% of the population with a PA salary. For most people that's already enough. It's up to you whether you feel that spending two more years of school and 4 more years of residency is worth it making that much more than a PA.

Don't forget, when you're a resident, you're going to be working crazy odd hour shifts for little pay.

My point is that there are other professions out that are better financially and on your health. For people who think physicians are all about money, they're in for a huge surprise.

Ya, know what a resident makes. Still worth it financially in the long term to be a physician.

And again to quote you "maybe you should read my post again." I'm not disagreeing that there are other ways to make money, just that the examples you give are bad examples as you have as much chance getting into med school as you have getting into those.

 

[mathnerd88]

Ya, know what a resident makes. Still worth it financially in the long term to be a physician.

And again to quote you "maybe you should read my post again." I'm not disagreeing that there are other ways to make money, just that the examples you give are bad examples as you have as much chance getting into med school as you have getting into those.

I did admit that didn't I, I specifically said, maybe the consultant profession was a bad example.

 

[Gandyy]

Its odd, some of the doctor's I've shadowed have told me not to become a physician. That was in high school though.

 

[mathnerd88]

Its odd, some of the doctor's I've shadowed have told me not to become a physician. That was in high school though.

Haha, most doctors told me don't become a physician if you're in it for the money, because it isn't as glamorous as it was in the 1990's and the 2000's. They said things are definitely now changing for the next couple decades.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Lol...now you're just twisting things around. I'm saying there are always programs available to people who know where to look, regardless of which professional school they want to enter.

Btw, I did look into these programs that you are talking about and asked doctors about it. They said they know doctors who did this and end up working in indian reservations in the middle of nowhere. I don't know about you, but that is not my preference. If you're okay with that, then that's perfect for you. I encourage you to apply.

I don't want to be 40 and have kids and have to move them to an underdeserved community. I'm sorry, but that's not my preference.

I know about your argument for these programs, to quote you again "maybe you should read my post," you are limiting yourself. If you know about these programs, and chose not to do it, then bitch about the debt to income ratio THATS YOUR FAULT. Don't ask for free money then whine about the terms.

 

[Gandyy]

Haha, most doctors told me don't become a physician if you're in it for the money, because it isn't as glamorous as it was in the 1990's and the 2000's. They said things are definitely now changing for the next couple decades.

Yea, but grass is always greener on the other side right?

 

[mathnerd88]

I know about your argument for these programs, to quote you again "maybe you should read my post," you are limiting yourself. If you know about these programs, and chose not to do it, then bitch about the debt to income ratio THATS YOUR FAULT. Don't ask for free money then whine about the terms.

I never asked about free money...lol you completely misunderstood my point.

I'm talking about the AVERAGE physician. Does the AVERAGE phyisican make use of these programs? No.

I already explained to you why I don't want to participate in those programs.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

I did admit that didn't I, I specifically said, maybe the consultant profession was a bad example.

Maybe you should re-read my posts. You continue to use bad examples.

 

[mathnerd88]

Maybe you should re-read my posts. You continue to use bad examples.

Where's my bad example? I already admitted being a consultant may be a little far out of reach, but my other examples were fine.

Look, since you're already in medical school, you should act the part. Stop trying to pick a fight with someone else. That's not what physicians do.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

I never asked about free money...lol you completely misunderstood my point.

I'm talking about the AVERAGE physician. Does the AVERAGE phyisican make use of these programs? No.

I already explained to you why I don't want to participate in those programs.

By researching programs that forgive or pay off student debt, that's exactly what you are doing.

 

[mathnerd88]

By researching programs that forgive or pay off student debt, that's exactly what you are doing.

And, what's your point? Please kind sir, give me some more information on these programs that forgive or pay off student debt. I'm pretty sure most of them come with some sort of caveat.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Where's my bad example? I already admitted being a consultant may be a little far out of reach, but my other examples were fine.

Look, since you're already in medical school, you should act the part. Stop trying to pick a fight with someone else. That's not what physicians do.

You confuse picking a fight with trying to prevent you from giving bad advice.

 

[mathnerd88]

You confuse picking a fight with trying to prevent you from giving bad advice.

How did I give bad advice?

My original post and my point (which you clearly misunderstood) was saying that people should become a physician not for the money, but because they can't imagine doing anything else. If they want money, then other professions are better suited.

I've seen firsthand many physicians get overstressed because of residency or medical school. My sister also said half of her medical school class was on drugs for some form of depression, stress or anxiety. She said if she had to do it all over again, maybe she would've chosen differently.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

How did I give bad advice?

My original post and my point (which you clearly misunderstood) was saying that people should become a physician not for the money, but because they can't imagine doing anything else. If they want money, then other professions are better suited.

I understand you just fine boy, its you who clearly misunderstands. Ive detailed why in all my posts, reread them 4-5 times. Repetition seems to be important for you.

 

[mathnerd88]

I understand you just fine boy, its you who clearly misunderstands. Ive detailed why in all my posts, reread them 4-5 times. Repetition seems to be important for you.

Apparently, you too, who googled too fast and didn't really read through what google actually said. Your research on salaries was basically a Google search and reading the numbers without reading the content. Hopefully you don't do that when you study in medical school.

Sorry, you're in your thirties. Please don't try to prove you're right with someone in their 20's. You're more mature than that. I'm done talking on this subject with you. There's no point in trying to repeat myself or you trying to repeat yourself.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Apparently, you too, who googled too fast and didn't really read through what google actually said. Your research on salaries was basically a Google search and reading the numbers without reading the content. Hopefully you don't do that when you study in medical school.

Sorry, you're in your thirties. Please don't try to prove you're right with someone in their 20's. You're more mature than that. I'm done talking on this subject with you. There's no point in trying to repeat myself or you trying to repeat yourself.

I do not envy the mentorship that will be required to turn you from the little s$&@bag you are.

Good luck with all.

 

[mathnerd88]

I do not envy the mentorship that will be required to turn you from the little s$&@bag you are.

Good luck with all.

No need to insult others. Please respect the forum rules.

 

[Gandyy]

You know I was thinking about using the whole popcorn emoticon, but the argument melted the bag.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

No need to insult others. Please respect the forum rules.

I wish it was an insult, sadly its just who you are. And you will have a tough time in your twenties because of it.

 

[mathnerd88]

You know I was thinking about using the whole popcorn emoticon, but the argument melted the bag.

Lol...yeah. Oh well. Too tired to keep trying to repeat myself.

 

[mathnerd88]

I wish it was an insult, sadly its just who you are. And you will have a tough time in your twenties because of it.

Ok. You win. Feel better now? I'll be man enough to end this tirade.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Ok. You win. Feel better now? I'll be man enough to end this tirade.

I don't feel better, as i said Im sad for you and how much of a struggle your life is going to be.

 

[mathnerd88]

I don't feel better, as i said Im sad for you and how much of a struggle your life is going to be.

Let's just agree to disagree on that.

 

[FutureD0C17]

Concerned how? I will admit my end goal is to be an ER doctor. If this merger works in some negative way where most DO's are forced in primary care, I don't know what I'd do. Although I believe in some contexts ER doctors are considered primary care.

I'm right there with you, I want options. Obviously the concern is getting lumped into one big pile with all the MD's and still facing a bias. The DO niche is fading fast and will be completely wiped out once the merge takes full effect. No more AOA options and no more reserved spots in SOAP. Who knows what will happen.

 

[mathnerd88]

I'm right there with you, I want options. Obviously the concern is getting lumped into one big pile with all the MD's and still facing a bias. The DO niche is fading fast and will be completely wiped out once the merge takes full effect. No more AOA options and no more reserved spots in SOAP. Who knows what will happen.

Right now, many facets in medicine is up in the air. We also have Obamacare and not really knowing its full effect on healthcare yet.

It'll be several more years to fully know the outcome of these new mergers and programs.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Let's just agree to disagree on that.

I used to have a personality like yours, and I know many young people (and older people) who have your same disposition. Either you are going to get tossed around and think that it's always "other's who dont get/appreciate you," or you are going to realize that it's you- you need to change. Either way I do not envy your position.

Again, I am not saying this to be malicious- its just the hard and sad reality you are going to in one way or another come to terms with.

 

[mathnerd88]

I used to have a personality like yours, and I know many young people (and older people) who have your same disposition. Either you are going to get tossed around and think that it's always "other's who dont get/appreciate you," or you are going to realize that it's you- you need to change. Either way I do not envy your position.

Again, I am not saying this to be malicious- its just the hard and sad reality you are going to in one way or another come to terms with.

It is hard for me to think you're not malicious when you just pretty much fed me insults (and even cursing me out) the whole time you were posting. I was merely defending myself. I don't need other people to get or appreciate me. I just expressed my opinion and if you don't agree with it, I have nothing against you.

I've already changed a lot. I'm not the same person when I graduated a couple years back. I believe in working well with people. I'm naturally good-natured, and I'm sorry if I ever insulted you. What I have a problem with is the constant lambasting from you just because of some posts I made that you don't agree with. I already conceded to you that I might have been extreme mentioning consultant jobs, but that wasn't my main point.

I just wanted to drive the point across that being a physician is not as glamorous as it was before. I wanted to make sure that people who are going into this profession do it NOT for the money, but the actual passion of wanting to study and work hard, and to always help people. I've seen people get overstressed and burnt out while in medical school and even in residency.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

It is hard for me to think you're not malicious when you just pretty much fed me insults (and even cursing me out) the whole time you were posting. I was merely defending myself. I don't need other people to get or appreciate me. I just merely expressed my opinion and if you don't agree with it, I have nothing against you.

I've already changed a lot. I'm not the same person when I graduated a couple years back. I believe in working well with people. I'm naturally good-natured. What I have a problem with is the constant lambasting from you just because of some posts I made that you don't agree with. I already conceded to you that I might have been extreme mentioning consultant jobs, but that wasn't my main point.

It's not that I disagree...its that you are simply wrong. The lambasting was my Sergeant side coming out- honestly you deserve it because you are arrogant and uninformed. If that feels insulting to you, I am sorry...don't be arrogant and do better research.

You absolutely need people who appreciate and get you, saying you dont need this is a statement of a boy who doesn't understand the importance of having other people behind him- even though he tries to claim in the next paragraph that he believes in working with other people.

Good for you on changing! Keep doing that, you really need it. I hope to see you here or in the healthcare environment one day being a true member of the team and being respectful to others, right now, based on what you say and the way you carry yourself in these forums you are simply not there.

 

[mathnerd88]

It's not that I disagree...its that you are simply wrong. The lambasting was my Sergeant side coming out- honestly you deserve it because you are arrogant and uninformed. If that feels insulting to you, I am sorry...don't be arrogant and do better research.

You absolutely need people who appreciate and get you, saying you dont need this is a statement of a boy who doesn't understand the importance of having other people behind him- even though he tries to claim in the next paragraph that he believes in working with other people.

Good for you on changing! Keep doing that, you really need it. I hope to see you here or in the healthcare environment one day being a true member of the team and being respectful to others, right now, based on what you say and the way you carry yourself in these forums you are simply not there.

I'm going to be honest with you. Nobody deserves being insulted- wrong or not. You're the one coming across as arrogant because you believe you're completely correct. You also seem to have an air of condescension when you talk with me. When I talk with others, I don't EVER say they're flat out wrong. That's unprofessional and rude. I believe there is some merit to what I am saying, as is I believe there is some merit to what you're saying.

That's one thing you need to learn while in medicine. You'll have patients or even some nurses who treat you like crap and think they're better than you. You have to know how to be self-aware, and realize how to diffuse an intense situation. I'll admit I didn't diffuse this situation as quickly as I should have. You still have to be professional with others. You also mentioned you're a sergeant. I've never seen someone who served be so rude and condescending to a civilian. I still appreciate your service to our country.

I think you need to change, and I'm not insulting you. I honestly don't understand your posts. You're certainly not carrying yourself as a team worker. You're going to meet a lot of people who won't agree with you in your life, and even in healthcare. They may be totally wrong, but you still have to know how to deal with them.

 

[Moose A Moose]

Returned to this thread after 12 hours and its become a battle royale.

 

[mathnerd88]

Returned to this thread after 12 hours and its become a battle royale.

I apologize it had to become this way.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

I'm going to be honest with you. Nobody deserves being insulted- wrong or not. You're the one coming across as arrogant because you believe you're completely correct. When I talk with others, I don't EVER say they're flat out wrong. That's unprofessional and rude. I believe there is some merit to what I am saying, as is I believe there is some merit to what you're saying.

That's one thing you need to learn while in medicine. You'll have patients or even some nurses who treat you like crap. You still have to be professional with them. You also mentioned you're a sergeant. I've never seen someone who served be so rude to a civilian. I still appreciate your service to our country.

I think you need to change, and I'm not insulting you. I honestly don't understand your post because I've been everything you're telling me I should be.

If you have never told someone they are wrong when they are wrong you need to start putting on your big boy pants and stick up for yourself (which your doing right now, just in a situation which you are very wrong). There are certainly not merits to every opinion, and unfortunately for you there is little merit to what you have been saying in this thread.

I need to adjust professionally? Nope, I do pretty well professionally. I deal with jerk customers all the time, I know perfectly how to kiss ass after they were mean for no reason whatsoever (well, usually unhappy over my companies policies that cost them lots of money). I used to fail in these interactions, but as you must do, I learned from them and now do quite well.

I've been dealing with nurses for years now in both my civilian careers, I know perfectly the tiptoe through the tulips game you have to play with them.

I know there is a time and a place to be a Sergeant, after all, I am one, and I am often commended on how good of one I am. You telling me how to be one to a civilian is further evidence that you speak to and about things that you have no clue.

You have been everything I am telling you to be? Nope, if you were, I wouldn't be telling you you need to be them. Again, right now you are in the "it's them, not me" phase of your life. You will get past that (hopefully) and realize what you once were.

 

[mathnerd88]

If you have never told someone they are wrong when they are wrong you need to start putting on your big boy pants and stick up for yourself (which your doing right now, just in a situation which you are very wrong). There are certainly not merits to every opinion, and unfortunately for you there is little merit to what you have been saying in this thread.

I need to adjust professionally? Nope, I do pretty well professionally. I deal with jerk customers all the time, I know perfectly how to kiss ass after they were mean for no reason whatsoever (well, usually unhappy over my companies policies that cost them lots of money). I used to fail in these interactions, but as you must do, I learned from them and now do quite well.

I've been dealing with nurses for years now in both my civilian careers, I know perfectly the tiptoe through the tulips game you have to play with them.

I know there is a time and a place to be a Sergeant, after all, I am one, and I am often commended on how good of one I am. You telling me how to be one to a civilian is further evidence that you speak to and about things that you have no clue.

You have been everything I am telling you to be? Nope, if you were, I wouldn't be telling you you need to be them. Again, right now you are in the "it's them, not me" phase of your life. You will get past that (hopefully) and realize what you once were.

I'm sorry, but I guess I'll never understand you. I just know that NOBODY deserves to be insulted. That's empathy and compassion. Plus, it is also part of the forum rules. There's a reason for that.

In this case, there are certainly merits in everyone's opinions on this matter, because all of this is just speculation. We are in the beginning of one of the biggest healthcare overhauls in our country since 50 years ago, and there are always going to be different opinions on what's happening.

 

[Gandyy]

If this keeps going on, I foresee a locked thread

 

[kenjixshadow]

@mathnerd88 Many folks in this thread, including myself, disagree with you and hence why you see ppl call you out. Let's be honest here, everyone knows medicine is going to the wrong direction, but it is still better than a vast majority of careers. Medicine is still the surest thing out there where efforts and work are very consistently rewarded very well -- especially once you've sunk the cost of tuition and endured the training.

Even if a cynical person enters this field for the money, s/he will one day make a difference to someone's life and honestly who cares of one's motives are. Medicine is a lifetime commitment. We knew of this and are expected the worst to come. Only incompetent fools do themselves a disservice by not scrutinizing more of this profession. A casual SDNer and non-members can easily find this thread (and many more related topics) to read for themselves.

 

[mathnerd88]

@mathnerd88 Many folks in this thread, including myself, disagree with you and hence why you see ppl call you out. Let's be honest here, everyone knows medicine is going to the wrong direction, but it is still better than a vast majority of careers. Medicine is still the surest thing out there where efforts and work are very consistently rewarded very well -- especially once you've sunk the cost of tuition and endured the training.

Even if a cynical person enters this field for the money, s/he will one day make a difference to someone's life and honestly who cares of one's motives are. Medicine is a lifetime commitment. We knew of this and are expected the worst to come. Only incompetent fools do themselves a disservice by not scrutinizing more of this profession. A casual SDNer and non-members can easily find this thread (and many more related topics) to read for themselves.

But that's the thing. I agree with you. But my warning was that it wasn't easy, and that making money should be secondary to this profession. Tuition costs are rising higher than inflation, and there is a concern for physician salaries because of the Affordable Care Act. Naturally, I have a "tread with caution" attitude when you're sinking $250k in tuition and then 4 years of residency making $50-60k a year. It is a concern when I'm out of residency, I'll be in my late 30's and have to worry about other expenses when it comes to raising a family and buying a house, and paying for my kid's college tuition. Is there anything wrong with being concerned about this?

There are other ways that money can be made and end up being better than a physician without the hard work and studying that comes with medical school. I fail to see why this is of no concern to anyone financially. I'm not saying this is impossible, just that a lot of sacrifices have to be made in the beginning.

You think medicine is going in the wrong direction? Maybe for physicians yes, but not for the general public. More people are now covered by health insurance.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

I'm sorry, but I guess I'll never understand you. I just know that NOBODY deserves to be insulted. That's empathy and compassion. Plus, it is also part of the forum rules. There's a reason for that.

In this case, there are certainly merits in everyone's opinions on this matter, because all of this is just speculation. We are in the beginning of one of the biggest healthcare overhauls in our country since 50 years ago, and there are always going to be different opinions on what's happening.

Again, disagreeing with you because people absolutely deserve to be insulted at times. We can't do it because people are too sensitive, and we unfortunately live in a society that caters to that. You need significant shift in how you talk to people and deal with people in general. You may counter and say that I need that as well, but trust me...I'm only talking to you like this BECAUSE YOU NEED IT. The fact that you quote that you will never understand me and what I am saying is further evidence that YOU need to change.

 

[mathnerd88]

Again, disagreeing with you because people absolutely deserve to be insulted at times. We can't do it because people are too sensitive, and we unfortunately live in a society that caters to that. You need significant shift in how you talk to people and deal with people in general. You may counter and say that I need that as well, but trust me...I'm only talking to you like this BECAUSE YOU NEED IT. The fact that you quote that you will never understand me and what I am saying is further evidence that YOU need to change.

The problem is, it isn't your call to tell someone to change. We are all adults here.

If you can't follow the rules on this forum, then don't post. If you have a problem with the rules, then take it up with the forum moderators to change them.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Do you guys really think that DO aren't gonna be able to specialize after the merger?

 

[MightBeACylon439]

But that's the thing. I agree with you. But my warning was that it wasn't easy, and that making money should be secondary to this profession. Tuition costs are rising higher than inflation, and there is a concern for physician salaries because of the Affordable Care Act. Naturally, I have a "tread with caution" attitude when you're sinking $250k in tuition and then 4 years of residency making $50-60k a year. It is a concern when I'm out of residency, I'll be in my late 30's and have to worry about other expenses when it comes to raising a family and buying a house, and paying for my kid's college tuition. Is there anything wrong with being concerned about this?

There are other ways that money can be made and end up being better than a physician without the hard work and studying that comes with medical school. I fail to see why this is of no concern to anyone financially. I'm not saying this is impossible, just that a lot of sacrifices have to be made in the beginning.

You think medicine is going in the wrong direction? Maybe for physicians yes, but not for the general public. More people are now covered by health insurance.

By blaming the ACA for falling physician salaries you are showing that you are out of touch again. Even with the ACA healthcare is enormously profitable and hospitals continue to make tons of money and are saturating neighborhoods with hospitals that are already full on their healthcare needs.

Corporate medicine is what is lowering physician salaries...and again if you believe that its the ACA then you are part of the problem.