DO seems way more competitive

[TheBoneDoctah]

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Of course not. A surgeon is a surgeon. The only problem is that many good residency programs don't take DO's. DO's who do any specialty will make the same as MD's in the same specialty.

Correct.

 

[samac]

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Doctor_ofa_Osteopathic_Medicine_(DO)/Salary

Also, I know a couple of DO's who told me what their ranges are.

If you go out into areas that are less desirable you get paid more. Around popular areas the pay is less. In NJ and PA, the average for DO's are only $150k.

The problem with this is the pool of people they have reporting. They only have 29 people reporting their salaries, and those are all in primary care.

 

[Seth Joo]

And the perceived level of difficulty has become a real level of difficulty and drives the applicant pools for MD and DO in different ways. The reverberations and amplifications that can be found on sites such as SDN and in media such as USNWR affect the way the applicant pools as well.

I went through the admissions process at both MD and DO schools. My perception was that DO schools were easier to gain admission to than MD schools. I got far more interviews at DO programs than I did MD, and wound up getting multiple admissions offers. I guess I would be an average MD applicant, but well above average for DO.

MD schools tend to attract more competitive applicants, even the lowest ranked MD schools don't take less than a 30 MCAT except in rare circumstances while many DO programs will take people with a 26-27.

 

[user3]

I went through the admissions process at both MD and DO schools. My perception was that DO schools were easier to gain admission to than MD schools. I got far more interviews at DO programs than I did MD, and wound up getting multiple admissions offers. I guess I would be an average MD applicant, but well above average for DO.

MD schools tend to attract more competitive applicants, even the lowest ranked MD schools don't take less than a 30 MCAT except in rare circumstances while many DO programs will take people with a 26-27.

also...even if your stats are around the average of an MD matriculant (3.7/31), you will struggle to get more than a handful of interviews-- if any--, even if you apply early and broadly.

yet if your stats are around the average of DO matriculants (3.5/27) and you apply early and broadly, you will get more interviews than you can attend.

 

[Seth Joo]

also...even if your stats are around the average of an MD matriculant (3.7/31), you will struggle to get more than a handful of interviews-- if any--, even if you apply early and broadly.

yet if your stats are around the average of DO matriculants (3.5/27) and you apply early and broadly, you will get more interviews than you can attend.

If you get an interview your chances of getting into the school that is interviewing you is much higher, as much as 50 percent at some schools and nearly 75 percent at some others. That is my point, MD is much harder to gain admission to than DO.

 

[AwayFromReality]

If you get an interview your chances of getting into the school that is interviewing you is much higher, as much as 50 percent at some schools and nearly 75 percent at some others. That is my point, MD is much harder to gain admission to than DO.

Are you saying that if a DO school interviews you, then you have a high chance of getting in to that DO school or are you saying MD schools give few interviews but once you get an interview your chances of getting in to that school is high?

 

[j4pac]

Notice I said "ideally"...given 2 people..with equal intangibles...wouldn't you agree the better physician would have a better academic record? I'm in no way implying a "good" physician should always have a stellar undergrad GPA/MCAT. But if prospective physicians have both, why not celebrate it.

Not really. From what I understand MCAT success has a decent correlate to board exam success...but not med school success and certainly not success as a professional (certainly after the minimums are set).

I think that it comes down to schools wanting their student to test well on the boards because it is a graduation requirement and a large determinate for residency placement.

GPA is highly associated to the classes you took in undergrad and the level of difficult of those classes. This varies greatly by school.

I don't think that there is any question that the wealthy and well connected have a significant advantage with the MCAT. The guy working through undergrad to survive while not being able to take significant time off and invest in a review course is at a significant disadvantage. There is a very common theme between my friends who are DOs and my friends who are MDs. My DO friends had significantly less resources to put toward MCAT than my MD friends. Could be the small sample size but it probably says something. My DO friends ended do well on their boards (I'm from LECOM B) and landing comparable residency to my MD friends. They certainly weren't any less intelligent or hard working.

 

[Seth Joo]

Are you saying that if a DO school interviews you, then you have a high chance of getting in to that DO school or are you saying MD schools give few interviews but once you get an interview your chances of getting in to that school is high?

If you get an interview at either your chances of getting an offer of admission go up a lot for both programs.

 

[keels99]

If you get an interview at either your chances of getting an offer of admission go up a lot for both programs.

That's a given (considering if you don't get an interview it's literally a 0% chance.) I think what they meant was if you get an interview at an MD, about 20-30% are offered admission versus the 40-50% for DO (take these numbers with a grain of salt, I was just using them as an example.)

 

[user3]

Not really. From what I understand MCAT success has a decent correlate to board exam success...but not med school success and certainly not success as a professional (certainly after the minimums are set).

I think that it comes down to schools wanting their student to test well on the boards because it is a graduation requirement and a large determinate for residency placement.

GPA is highly associated to the classes you took in undergrad and the level of difficult of those classes. This varies greatly by school.

I don't think that there is any question that the wealthy and well connected have a significant advantage with the MCAT. The guy working through undergrad to survive while not being able to take significant time off and invest in a review course is at a significant disadvantage. There is a very common theme between my friends who are DOs and my friends who are MDs. My DO friends had significantly less resources to put toward MCAT than my MD friends. Could be the small sample size but it probably says something. My DO friends ended do well on their boards (I'm from LECOM B) and landing comparable residency to my MD friends. They certainly weren't any less intelligent or hard working.

but come on though...I don't think a 27 is an unreasonable expectation for premeds, traditional or non, who put in a serious effort towards the test. It is one thing to score marginally with those circumstances you described, but bringing those issues up after scoring poorly...it kind of comes across as excuse-making.

Noshie made a 27 after several months of studying while working full time, after having scored several times in the teens/low 20's.

 

[samac]

but come on though...I don't think a 27 is an unreasonable expectation for premeds, traditional or non, who put in a serious effort towards the test. It is one thing to score marginally with those circumstances you described, but bringing those issues up after scoring poorly...it kind of comes across as excuse-making.

Noshie made a 27 after several months of studying while working full time, after having scored several times in the teens/low 20's.

I personally like the idea of at least an 8 in each subsection, across the board that puts you right around the 50th percentile, so at least you're average when it comes to the MCAT. Someone with a 25/26 could still be an exceptional applicant depending on what else they have in their application.
I think if you get lower than a 24 though you're dipping into scary territory where people aren't performing at an average level.

 

[Bones 2020]

All of this riffraff about salaries makes me glad I'm not going into medicine for the money lol

 

[asdf123g]

All of this riffraff about salaries makes me glad I'm not going into medicine for the money lol

...yet

 

[kenjixshadow]

Most physicians care about where they live for the rest of their careers. Money isn't important when you're unhappy where you are.

You'll be more uphappy with 300k+ debts with 7% of unsubsidized loan. Ppl will suck it up, work a few years in undesirable area to pay off their debt ASAP.

The average DO physician makes around $160k a year.

What an absurd statement with no source to back that up. You're taking accounts of every DO physician in every specialty. There is no way that the average of full time attending physician compensation would be that low.
Like you said, DO and MD are physicians. The compensation is the same in any specialty.

In NJ and PA, the average for DO's are only $150k

Presuming this is solely about family doctor sine DO in other specialties make way more. Medscape estimated family physicians in mid-alantic area make average of 188k. That is more than your 150k.
http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2015/familymedicine#page=7

Most DO's who practice don't end up in surgery. Most of them go into Family Practice and primary care.

You played that word carefully so no one could nitpick it. I wouldn't say most, but a majority of DO do end up in primary care. Nevertheless, that number is evidently going down based on 2015 match list as more DO students applied for competitive residencies.

Uhh...you're wrong about anesthesia making that much. How do I know? My sister is an attending anesthesiologist.

$400k is without health insurance and malpractice insurance and tax. Take all of that away, you'll make WAY less than you think..

Any salary you see on this website or from google is pre-tax and pre-mal practice. Speaking of med mal, the expense depends on what type of policy it is. Claims based is less expensive but may require that you buy a tail while occurrence is more expensive. However, other posters' point is still stand as anesthesiologist do make 400k+.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

How would they become as competitive as MD schools when DO typically costs more money, the residency options pale in comparison, and the fact that its actually a tougher road considering OMM plus the extra exams? Obviously it can't and won't. Not to mention all those who need the "MD" after their names.

It has gotten more competitive the past few cycles, but this is it IMO - we're seeing DO just about maxed out on the competitiveness scale given the facts above and the combination of an uncertain future of healthcare and the very uncertain outcome of the merger. The merger actually has me very concerned about the future of DO's.

The sky is always falling on SDN ;-)

 

[mathnerd88]

You'll be more uphappy with 300k+ debts with 7% of unsubsidized loan. Ppl will suck it up, work a few years in undesirable area to pay off their debt ASAP.

What an absurd statement with no source to back that up. You're taking accounts of every DO physician in every specialty. There is no way that the average of full time attending physician compensation would be that low.
Like you said, DO and MD are physicians. The compensation is the same in any specialty.

Presuming this is solely about family doctor sine DO in other specialties make way more. Medscape estimated family physicians in mid-alantic area make average of 188k. That is more than your 150k.
http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2015/familymedicine#page=7

You played that word carefully so no one could nitpick it. I wouldn't say most, but a majority of DO do end up in primary care. Nevertheless, that number is evidently going down based on 2015 match list as more DO students applied for competitive residencies.

Any salary you see on this website or from google is pre-tax and pre-mal practice. Speaking of med mal, the expense depends on what type of policy it is. Claims based is less expensive but may require that you buy a tail while occurrence is more expensive. However, other posters' point is still stand as anesthesiologist do make 400k+.

Have you considered Obamacare and its future implications on physician's salaries? Will doctors still make that much 9 years down the line? The problem isn't for older doctors. Nobody is going to decrease their salaries. The NEW doctors will be the ones pinched right after residency. As things become more efficiently run, where do you think those cuts are going to start? I know that anesthesiologists at my hospital three years ago would be paid at least $250k when they start with a signing bonus. Now they're only offering barely $200k when a new anesthesiologist signs on.

You see, I can't assume that when a doctor will make that much as soon as they graduate. Nobody can. When you plan out your life, you plan for the worst and hope for the best. There will always be some doctors who make a lot, but then there are also some doctors who make much less.

I'm not going to assume that when I graduate I can make so much that these loans won't be a problem. Of course they will. There are other major expenses to worry about in your 30's. (House, car, etc.) Living a couple of years in an undesirable area is just throwing money away on rent and not investing it on a house.

 

[kenjixshadow]

Have you considered Obamacare and its future implications on physician's salaries? Will doctors still make that much 9 years down the line?

Yes, but the ACA is not here to stay. A single payer system will replace it in the future. 20 years ago, doctors made less (besides plastic) than they do today and are happier. You know why? They didn't have to deal with the today BS. Don't worry about physicians' salaries. RVU will keep primary care in check while forcing the other specialties to have more workload in order to keep the same wages.

 

[Mad Jack]

Let's put it this way. Consultants straight out of college already make at least $80k a year, not even with signing bonuses. By the time doctors are out of residency, consultants already have made $640k ahead of you AND don't have loans. (That's also assuming their pay never increases, but it does per year.) Adding your student loans and interest, you are about almost a million dollars behind.

By the time you become a doctor, consultants already make almost the same pay as you. I believe people have the completely WRONG idea about how much doctors actually make. Back in the 90's and early 2000's doctors made WAY more. With the healthcare system changing, it won't be as lavish anymore.

Being a doctor DOES NOT give you as much money as you think. My sister is an attending as an anesthesiologist is still making not as much. Guess how much doctors make as a resident? Only $50-60k a year. Want to buy a house? You're going to have to wait until you're almost 40.

If you want to be a doctor for the money, you're out of your mind. Marry someone with a nice job to also help you.

You're not going to be a consultant straight it off undergrad unless you came from an Ivy, in which case your undergraduate education came at a price comparable to many medical schools. I love how people pretend everyone that gets a bachelor's degree is instantly hirable by some consulting firm or similar for approaching six figures a year and that undergrad is free.

 

[Mad Jack]

Have you considered Obamacare and its future implications on physician's salaries? Will doctors still make that much 9 years down the line? The problem isn't for older doctors. Nobody is going to decrease their salaries. The NEW doctors will be the ones pinched right after residency. As things become more efficiently run, where do you think those cuts are going to start? I know that anesthesiologists at my hospital three years ago would be paid at least $250k when they start with a signing bonus. Now they're only offering barely $200k when a new anesthesiologist signs on.

You see, I can't assume that when a doctor will make that much as soon as they graduate. Nobody can. When you plan out your life, you plan for the worst and hope for the best. There will always be some doctors who make a lot, but then there are also some doctors who make much less.

I'm not going to assume that when I graduate I can make so much that these loans won't be a problem. Of course they will. There are other major expenses to worry about in your 30's. (House, car, etc.) Living a couple of years in an undesirable area is just throwing money away on rent and not investing it on a house.

Is that a 200k signing bonus or salary, because that's literally the worst I've ever heard of for a non-mommy track job and I'd be hard-pressed to believe it unless you're in some super desirable location or the hours are 40/wk.

As to your other points, you really have a combination of a flawed understanding of healthcare economics and poor financial sense. You want to plan for a nightmare scenario, that's fine. I'll be over here simply not accepting insurance if reimbursement is too low for my liking, and working for myself or as a partner instead of as someone's employee.

 

[deleted480308]

Is that a 200k signing bonus or salary, because that's literally the worst I've ever heard of for a non-mommy track job and I'd be hard-pressed to believe it unless you're in some super desirable location or the hours are 40/wk.

I agree. posting one hospitals offer as though it's indicative of anything doesn't work in medicine.....employee/partner track, salary/total comp, call schedule, hours, location etc......all change everything

 

[mathnerd88]

Is that a 200k signing bonus or salary, because that's literally the worst I've ever heard of for a non-mommy track job and I'd be hard-pressed to believe it unless you're in some super desirable location or the hours are 40/wk.

As to your other points, you really have a combination of a flawed understanding of healthcare economics and poor financial sense. You want to plan for a nightmare scenario, that's fine. I'll be over here simply not accepting insurance if reimbursement is too low for my liking, and working for myself or as a partner instead of as someone's employee.

Please explain what is flawed with my reasoning on healthcare economics. No, $200k was not a signing bonus, but the actual salary per year. Three years ago it would've been more and they would provide another $30k signing bonus.

Yes, it is in a super desirable location, and it is 40 hr/wk. One of the major cities in the Northeast. I can plan my scenario based on the averages of how much primary care physicians make. Private schools ten years ago were only $40-45k in tuition per year. Now it is around $60k per year.

 

[tom10]

lol.
I strongly doubt the accuracy of these numbers.
Spend two seconds on the EMP forums and find out.

Ok guys, I have ACTUALLY SEEN the numbers of what the EM, gas, psych, FM, hospitalists and cardiologists get paid at my core site. Not hearsay, I HAVE SEEN THE ACTUAL NUMBERS. I don't have an agenda here to try and convince people they're gonna make a ****load of money. I don't really care, I'm just offering up my real life experience.

 

[AlteredScale]

Everyone just calm down now. Just calm down.

 

[Mad Jack]

Please explain what is flawed with my reasoning on healthcare economics. No, $200k was not a signing bonus, but the actual salary per year. Three years ago it would've been more and they would provide another $30k signing bonus.

Yes, it is in a super desirable location, and it is 40 hr/wk. One of the major cities in the Northeast. I can plan my scenario based on the averages of how much primary care physicians make. Private schools ten years ago were only $40-45k in tuition per year. Now it is around $60k per year.

Simple fact is, no docs, no billing. That's why anesthesia has historically been able to command pay in excess of their actual billing rate (no anesthesiologists=no beds filling, no surgeries performed, etc). The classic example is nurses- they generate no revenue, and are an expense, plus there is a glut of nursing grads, and yet salaries continue to rise because hospitals need them and they will only work for a certain level of compensation. You also neglect the ability of providers to refuse insurance and bill directly, something that will surely occur if reimbursement gets low enough. Oh, and the ability of new physicians to band together and form their own partnerships if groups in the area are excessively unfair to new partners. I mean, you use one example of a crush anesthesia job with typical compensation for the hours and area (anesthesia is typically pays 300k for 60 hours in desirable areas, 200k for 40 is both typical and reasonable, especially if they're doing their own cases) to say all of healthcare is going straight to hell. It's sad really. But feel free to run away from medicine, we really already have a gross excess of pessimists and naysayers, rather than people willing to fight for better compensation and working arrangements.

 

[mathnerd88]

Simple fact is, no docs, no billing. That's why anesthesia has historically been able to command pay in excess of their actual billing rate (no anesthesiologists=no beds filling, no surgeries performed, etc). The classic example is nurses- they generate no revenue, and are an expense, plus there is a glut of nursing grads, and yet salaries continue to rise because hospitals need them and they will only work for a certain level of compensation. You also neglect the ability of providers to refuse insurance and bill directly, something that will surely occur if reimbursement gets low enough. Oh, and the ability of new physicians to band together and form their own partnerships if groups in the area are excessively unfair to new partners. I mean, you use one example of a crush anesthesia job with typical compensation for the hours and area (anesthesia is typically pays 300k for 60 hours in desirable areas, 200k for 40 is both typical and reasonable, especially if they're doing their own cases) to say all of healthcare is going straight to hell. It's sad really. But feel free to run away from medicine, we really already have a gross excess of pessimists and naysayers, rather than people willing to fight for better compensation and working arrangements.

I never said healthcare is going straight to hell. The problem is we don't know the effects of Obamacare so far, since it is so recent.

I did say it is doable, just don't expect the glamor like it used to be.

Doctors can refuse insurance, but then get less patients. Some patients won't go to doctors who won't take insurance. In the end, everyone can speculate, but nobody would know the true answer here.

 

[Mad Jack]

I never said healthcare is going straight to hell. The problem is we don't know the effects of Obamacare so far, since it is so recent.

I did say it is doable, just don't expect the glamor like it used to be.

Doctors can refuse insurance, but then get less patients. Some patients won't go to doctors who won't take insurance. In the end, everyone can speculate, but nobody would know the true answer here.

Uncertainty is opportunity to anyone with a good eye. Trouble is, medical school attracts a lot of risk-averse personality types, so they get all fearful and cowardly in the face of change.

 

[kenjixshadow]

You see, I can't assume that when a doctor will make that much as soon as they graduate.

Correct, but that is why newly graduated doctors will want to join the partner track, work as locum, or work in the undesirable area.

Nobody can. When you plan out your life, you plan for the worst and hope for the best. There will always be some doctors who make a lot, but then there are also some doctors who make much less.

Why do you think there are more DO enter specialties now in lieu to primary care?

Living a couple of years in an undesirable area is just throwing money away on rent and not investing it on a house.

1) buy a house near the hospital then resell it later, or put out a lease. Locum docs would be more than happy to stay there. Or
2) negotiate the hospital to pay for your rent

I never said healthcare is going straight to hell. The problem is we don't know the effects of Obamacare so far, since it is so recent.

I know one so far. The visits to the ER increases. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...nts-flocking-to-ers-under-obamacare/10173015/

In the end, everyone can speculate, but nobody would know the true answer here.

Fair enough, but so far, you're the only person in here who is afraid of the uncertain future. Perhaps medicine is not the right field for you. Get out of here while you can, pre-med.

 

[Gandyy]

Alas, what really seems frustrating to me is how DO medical students are all treated the same by residency directors. There is a significant difference between difficulty of gaining admission to say Touro-CA
opposed to say.. KYCOM- Pikeville.

My biggest problem with the residency bias towards DO's is this.

Guy graduates from low tier MD school such as UMKC (average MCAT is a 28-29, 3.6 gpa) and another Guy Graduates from Touro-CA (average MCAT is a 30, 3.6 gpa).

Guess who has a much better chance of landing a residency they want outside of primary care?

The residency's that just say "No DO's", what in the world is going through their minds?

(I am not referring to ultra competitive residency's like Derm or plastics). Those are hard to get for both no matter what. I am more referring to upper tier Internal Medicine residencys that land you cardiology fellowships and gasteroenterology fellowships, general surgery residencys, neurosurgery residencys, neurology, urology etc

 

[mathnerd88]

Fair enough, but so far, you're the only person in here who is afraid of the uncertain future. Perhaps medicine is not the right field for you. Get out of here while you can, pre-med.

You misunderstood my intention. I never said I was AFRAID of the uncertain future. I'm telling OTHERS that if they're in it for the money, they're going to be disappointed. I don't really care about the money, because I really want to be a physician. You don't need to put others down.

Thanks.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Alas, what really seems frustrating to me is how DO medical students are all treated the same by residency directors. There is a significant difference between difficulty of gaining admission to say Touro-CA
opposed to say.. KYCOM- Pikeville.

My biggest problem with the residency bias towards DO's is this.

Guy graduates from low tier MD school such as UMKC (average MCAT is a 28-29, 3.6 gpa) and another Guy Graduates from Touro-CA (average MCAT is a 30, 3.6 gpa).

Guess who has a much better chance of landing a residency they want outside of primary care?

The residency's that just say "No DO's", what in the world is going through their minds?

(I am not referring to ultra competitive residency's like Derm or plastics). Those are hard to get for both no matter what. I am more referring to upper tier Internal Medicine residencys that land you cardiology fellowships and gasteroenterology fellowships, general surgery residencys, neurosurgery residencys, neurology, urology etc

Amen. I feel as though they are very shallow. For example, I'll give my scenario.

I went to community college for four years prior to realizing I wanted to become a doctor. I trashed my GPA. I took four years of classes and my GPA was under 3.0. After realizing what I wanted, I finished up some GE courses and transferred to UCLA majoring in neuroscience. I did well at UCLA and scored a 31 on my MCAT. My GPA was only 3.4 when I applied because even though I did well at UCLA, the enormous stack of classes and units I had taken wouldn't allow my GPA to rise. I would have needed 3-4 years of UCLA courses to raise my GPA significantly.

Now, I am accepted at a DO school. However, residences will take someone who went to Univeristy of New Mexico which has an average MCAT of like 27 and not even look at me.


I don't get it.

 

[Gandyy]

Amen. I feel as though they are very shallow. For example, I'll give my scenario.

I went to community college for four years prior to realizing I wanted to become a doctor. I trashed my GPA. I took four years of classes and my GPA was under 3.0. After realizing what I wanted, I finished up some GE courses and transferred to UCLA majoring in neuroscience. I did well at UCLA and scored a 31 on my MCAT. My GPA was only 3.4 when I applied because even though I did well at UCLA, the enormous stack of classes and units I had taken wouldn't allow my GPA to rise. I would have needed 3-4 years of UCLA courses to raise my GPA significantly.

Now, I am accepted at a DO school. However, residences will take someone who went to Univeristy of New Mexico which has an average MCAT of like 27 and not even look at me.


I don't get it.

Yep. Its pretty outrageous.

 

[studentdocftw]

Not really. From what I understand MCAT success has a decent correlate to board exam success...but not med school success and certainly not success as a professional (certainly after the minimums are set).

I think that it comes down to schools wanting their student to test well on the boards because it is a graduation requirement and a large determinate for residency placement.

GPA is highly associated to the classes you took in undergrad and the level of difficult of those classes. This varies greatly by school.

I don't think that there is any question that the wealthy and well connected have a significant advantage with the MCAT. The guy working through undergrad to survive while not being able to take significant time off and invest in a review course is at a significant disadvantage. There is a very common theme between my friends who are DOs and my friends who are MDs. My DO friends had significantly less resources to put toward MCAT than my MD friends. Could be the small sample size but it probably says something. My DO friends ended do well on their boards (I'm from LECOM B) and landing comparable residency to my MD friends. They certainly weren't any less intelligent or hard working.

So how do you suppose we select our future physicians? There has to be a standardized form of testing (MCAT) along with a subjective work ethic determinant (GPA). Otherwise, we would be left with "who wants to help alleviate pain" candidates...which is essentially everyone interested in medicine. And obviously some applicants are at an advantage with resources and connections..but isn't that life? Until we find a better way to work around that issue..there's no other way to assess mental aptitude for medicine..which is a necessity. You can want to help people all you want, but without proper retention...you can't apply the science.

 

[AlteredScale]

So how do you suppose we select our future physicians? There has to be a standardized form of testing (MCAT) along with a subjective work ethic determinant (GPA). Otherwise, we would be left with "who wants to help alleviate pain" candidates...which is essentially everyone interested in medicine. And obviously some applicants are at an advantage with resources and connections..but isn't that life? Until we find a better way to work around that issue..there's no other way to assess mental aptitude for medicine..which is a necessity. You can want to help people all you want, but without proper retention...you can't apply the science.

In the DO programs, I think it might be safe to assume that when an applicant has a slightly lower than average MCAT score to their matriculation average but had work 40-50 hours through all of undergrad to support themselves, they will be looked at to a similar light to an applicant who did not have to work at all but has an MCAT score a few points above.

I cannot provide any information on how this is comparable to those on MD admissions.

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[j4pac]

So how do you suppose we select our future physicians? There has to be a standardized form of testing (MCAT) along with a subjective work ethic determinant (GPA). Otherwise, we would be left with "who wants to help alleviate pain" candidates...which is essentially everyone interested in medicine. And obviously some applicants are at an advantage with resources and connections..but isn't that life? Until we find a better way to work around that issue..there's no other way to assess mental aptitude for medicine..which is a necessity. You can want to help people all you want, but without proper retention...you can't apply the science.

The problem is that there are too many applicants for each spot. It forces admissions committees to have very black and white screening processes. MD programs won't look at an applicate with a 27 MCAT...forget the fact that there is no difference between the success of someone with a 31 MCAT and a 27. The bottom line is that they HAVE TO screen applicants because they don't have the time and resources DESPITE the lack of evidence. Ideally a medical school would have the opportunity to take each application on a case by case basis, but that isn't possible.

Again...I'm not suggesting that there is a better way. I am simply saying that the very black and white screening of applications is incredibly flawed and there are applicants who would make better physicians than those accepted to medical school. I say this as a guy who have known too many to count poor medical students, both MD and DOs...and even more poor residents.

Ultimately medical school is work...and residency is work. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to determine work ethic by looking at an MCAT and GPA.

 

[Gandyy]

The problem is that there are too many applicants for each spot. It forces admissions committees to have very black and white screening processes. MD programs won't look at an applicate with a 27 MCAT...forget the fact that there is no difference between the success of someone with a 31 MCAT and a 27. The bottom line is that they HAVE TO screen applicants because they don't have the time and resources DESPITE the lack of evidence. Ideally a medical school would have the opportunity to take each application on a case by case basis, but that isn't possible.

Again...I'm not suggesting that there is a better way. I am simply saying that the very black and white screening of applications is incredibly flawed and there are applicants who would make better physicians than those excepted to medical school. I say this as a guy who have known too many to count poor medical students, both MD and DOs...and even more poor residents.

Ultimately medical school is work...and residency is work. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to determine work ethic by looking at an MCAT and GPA.

Hmm, I would say that GPA is a much better indicator of work ethic than the MCAT is, and is probably the best indicator of academic work ethic on an applicants profile.

 

[mathnerd88]

Hmm, I would say that GPA is a much better indicator of work ethic than the MCAT is, and is probably the best indicator of academic work ethic on an applicants profile.

Hey Gandy, is your GPA verified?

 

[Gandyy]

Hey Gandy, is your GPA verified?

yessir, why do you ask? Well it is for the MD application.

DO application is taking quite some time.

 

[mathnerd88]

yessir, why do you ask? Well it is for the MD application.

DO application is taking quite some time.

I'm looking at the verification thread on DO forums and the date you submitted and transcripts received matched the others who were verified yesterday. I assumed yours might have been verified too.

I was just wondering.

 

[Gandyy]

I'm looking at the verification thread on DO forums and the date you submitted and transcripts received matched the others who were verified yesterday. I assumed yours might have been verified too.

I was just wondering.

Ah, funny story. I realized I had this typo, undeserved instead of undeserved. So they redelivered it per my request so I could fix it and then I had to resubmit it knowing fully well

that I lose my spot in the queue. Paranoid and Neurotic. I know.

 

[mathnerd88]

Ah, funny story. I realized I had this typo, undeserved instead of undeserved. So they redelivered it per my request so I could fix it and then I had to resubmit it knowing fully well

that I lose my spot in the queue. Paranoid and Neurotic. I know.

Ahh...that makes total sense.

 

[j4pac]

Hmm, I would say that GPA is a much better indicator of work ethic than the MCAT is, and is probably the best indicator of academic work ethic on an applicants profile.

I agree. But I would also wager that course load matters...Chem major vs sociology major (I took both upper level classes and there is no comparison). Also extracurriculars matter. The guy working full-time and has a 3.4 is more impressive to me than a guy with a 3.5 and doing nothing but studying all day.

 

[mathnerd88]

I agree. But I would also wager that course load matters...Chem major vs sociology major (I took both upper level classes and there is no comparison). Also extracurriculars matter. The guy working full-time and has a 3.4 is more impressive to me than a guy with a 3.5 and doing nothing but studying all day.

That's not exactly true. A full-time student takes a lot more classes in general than a part-time student. It is almost impossible for anyone to be a full-time employee and a full-time student at the same time.

 

[Gandyy]

I agree. But I would also wager that course load matters...Chem major vs sociology major (I took both upper level classes and there is no comparison). Also extracurriculars matter. The guy working full-time and has a 3.4 is more impressive to me than a guy with a 3.5 and doing nothing but studying all day.

Truth. But then there never was any undergraduate discipline that is harder than pre-med besides engineering pre-med.

When you are a declared pre med you now have tacked on about 1 billion EC activities including lab research (I worked in a lab throughout all of college literally) as opposed to your average major who gets C's and B's all 4 years and gets a job somewhere in their respective market assuming they didnt major in Forestry or other joke majors.

Engineering Pre-med is absolute insanity, but I've seen some people successfully come out with fairly high gpas.

 

[j4pac]

That's not exactly true. A full-time student takes a lot more classes in general than a part-time student. It is almost impossible for anyone to be a full-time employee and a full-time student at the same time.

Full-time Student with a full-time work schedule vs full-time student

and oh ya...they do exist.

A part-time worker with a full-time school schedule with a 3.4 is more impressive than a full-time student only with a 3.5.

 

[mathnerd88]

Full-time Student with a full-time work schedule vs full-time student

and oh ya...they do exist.

So they work odd-hours?

 

[j4pac]

So they work odd-hours?

My wife worked 40 hours a week while completing a 14-15 hour college schedule. She was able to manage a 3.6 GPA as an undergrad. Little did LECOM Bradenton know that they were getting a brilliant machine...750 COMLEX.

 

[keels99]

That's not exactly true. A full-time student takes a lot more classes in general than a part-time student. It is almost impossible for anyone to be a full-time employee and a full-time student at the same time.

Not really. I worked 35-45 hours a week while taking 15-16 hours a semester. I worked/still work with with a lot of others who did the same. We all worked night shifts at the hospital and had time to sleep/study around those shifts. It's not as uncommon as you would think.

 

[mathnerd88]

I guess I was pretty naïve. I took 8 credits while having a full time job and I thought that was a lot.

 

[studentdocftw]

The problem is that there are too many applicants for each spot. It forces admissions committees to have very black and white screening processes. MD programs won't look at an applicate with a 27 MCAT...forget the fact that there is no difference between the success of someone with a 31 MCAT and a 27. The bottom line is that they HAVE TO screen applicants because they don't have the time and resources DESPITE the lack of evidence. Ideally a medical school would have the opportunity to take each application on a case by case basis, but that isn't possible.

Again...I'm not suggesting that there is a better way. I am simply saying that the very black and white screening of applications is incredibly flawed and there are applicants who would make better physicians than those accepted to medical school. I say this as a guy who have known too many to count poor medical students, both MD and DOs...and even more poor residents.

Ultimately medical school is work...and residency is work. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to determine work ethic by looking at an MCAT and GPA.

In that case, I wholeheartedly agree with you. As a biochemistry major at a top engineering school in the country, I had my fair share of impossible upper level math courses that were mandated to graduate. It was a sacrifice to my GPA to matriculate to that school, but I definitely don't regret it at all. At the same time, I can't use that instance as an excuse. The fact is, it's not feasible to look at each applicant on a case by case basis and I understand you agree with that. So what can an applicant do? Work his/her butt off to achieve the highest MCAT/GPA possible. No more ifs, and, or buts about it. And I'm saying this with both a mediocre GPA and MCAT.