DO surgical residency questions

[NeuroFun]

Hey all:

Ok, even though I am a pre-medical student I figured I should post this where I can get more reliable answers. First of all, I have recently been looking up the difference between DO and MD and I find DO's type of practice more geared towards my 'fancy'. I graduate this year (WOOO) and am applying to schools (both types) this summer most likely in the Texas area (thought a year off would be beneficial even though some say I should have gone straight) and as of now, I think I will prefer to go to the DO school.

The question I have is concerning the residency. I understand that DO's can have the choice to do either MD or DO residencies. I want to go into surgery I know for sure and I am pretty sure I want to specialize in orthopedic spine surgery (although my mind is still open). Both MD and DO have opportunities to do a resident in this specialty, but I wanted to know if there are any difference or preferences in the work world (job availability, salary, fellowship opportunity, etc) or anything regarding doing a DO surgical residency vs a MD one. I understand that DO's are considered to have a more hands-on approach and learn OMT, but most topics I see of DO residencies are of people wanting to do IM, FP, etc. So with emphasis on surgery (preferably spine), any advantages and disadvantages between DO and MD residencies would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!!

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[FrkyBgStok]

first off, welcome. second, more searching will indicate there are no differences in work environment. most importantly though you should know that orthopedic spine is one of the best paying fields in medicine and consequently one of the most competitive, so just know, whether you are doing MD or DO this will be incredibly hard to achieve. but good luck.

 

[TexasPhysician]

The difficulty you will run into is getting into that residency/fellowship from a DO school/residency. Ortho is HIGHLY competitive - even at top MD schools. One of my friends with board scores 90%ile+ from a Top 10 med school recently matched ortho.....he matched at his 8th choice. I couldn't believe he fell that far - impeccable student with great social skills, awards, AOA, etc. Its hard to imagine a better applicant.

So first you have to match ortho - easier from an MD program. You could match into a DO ortho spot, but I'm not sure any of those have spine fellowships. You would have to look that up. Being that the fellowship is also competitive, it would be easier to match this fellowship if your residency program provided fellowship training in spine.

I think the DO route is fantastic, but if you know you want a VERY specialized field, I would maximize those odds by going to an MD school - preferably one that has a home ortho program. As soon as you arrive, start doing ortho research and publish, publish, publish.

 

[NeuroFun]

Thanks this is really helpful.

 

[Dissected]

Ortho is mad hard to match. I can't even fathom how hard it is to get into spine surgery. If you have what it takes to get one of those spots it probably wouldn't matter much whether you went MD or DO for the first four. We've had a few grads come back to school and talk about what it takes, and its really intense stuff. Being in the top 10-20 of a DO class at a well respected school, smashing the boards (both sets), and doing really well in the clinical years is no easy job, but that can get you into some great programs. Every year we get a student or two matching to some MD ortho residencies, but they are literally in the top 10-20 of the class (out of 220). Research is good, and get involved in EC's and all that good stuff. And like the previous posters are saying too, if you really want that spine thing make sure you gun for a residency program that has a fellowship like that. Best of luck

 

[TexasPhysician]

To put it into perspective, Freida shows 17 programs that train you in Orthopaedic Surgery of the Spine (ORS).

 

[NeuroFun]

So, follow-up question, are there certain advantages/disadvantages of doing a DO ortho-spine residency vs MD one? I looked at the website and there are Ortho-Spine residencies specifically for DO.

 

[Dissected]

So, follow-up question, are there certain advantages/disadvantages of doing a DO ortho-spine residency vs MD one? I looked at the website and there are Ortho-Spine residencies specifically for DO.

There are 2 of them. No clue what kind of quality they are. Botsford Hospital in Michigan and Riverside County Medical Center in Souther California (Western/COMP). One has 2 spots and the other has 1. It's less about being an MD or DO program and more about the quality of education you would receive, which I can't speak to. But there are only 3 osteopathic spots total...so... good luck nabbing one!

 

[Nom]

I work with Spine docs (ortho and neuro) every day, and I can tell you that there are VERY few DO spine surgeons--that being said, most of the docs I work have 15+ years of practice, so there may not have been as many options for them during their education.

If you know you want to be a spine surgeon (emulating jack from lost? haha), I would look at the residency matches for DO school and see how many match Ortho to begin with. her is a list from another thread about DO residency matches.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=175626

According to AOA, there are only 2 residencies specific for Orthopedic spine surgery:

http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...essionid=f030ced0980735c3aa2c76686c325f327f43

That being said, there are many more ortho residencies (33):

http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...essionid=f030ced0980735c3aa2c76686c325f327f43

So, if you're set on Ortho Spine (aside remembering you might change your mind) and you can get into and MD program, it is probably a better bet. For example, 587 of the 641 orthopedic residencies offered were matched by "U.S. Allopathic Seniors" (I'm thinking this is allopathic residencies).

from here: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2009.pdf

Definitely have a backup plan because Ortho Spine is extremely difficult to match, and probably a bit more difficult for a DO. If you're looking simply for orthopedics, I'd say the chances are even between DO/MD. I dont know how many residency positions are offered in the 33 DO residencies listed, but if its an average of 5 spots per program thats 165 spots versus 641, but there are fewer DO students/schools--maybe it is easier to match "general" ortho as a DO.

After residency, it won't matter if you're a DO or an MD at all (some might argue it may be better to be an MD for private practice, but that's probably debatable).

Good luck, and remember you might be really sad in your 4th year of med school if the only thing you ever consider doing is being an ortho spine doc. A good goal, though. Hopefully you have some good experience that is pushing you in that direction.

 

[surag]

Ok first of all, there's a lot of BS in this thread so let me clarify. I know it's a bit old but for someone like me perusing through, this kind of info can only mislead the uninitiated.

First. There are a LOT of spine orthos who are DOs. I mean a lot. The percentage is probably no different than the MDs. Many of these DO docs went to ortho DO residencies of which there are about 5 that I know of that provide good training. Some match into MD programs-check out mcg or even Cleveland clinic.

Second. Ortho Spine is NOT competitive. If you do a search for mayo clinic trained spine surgeons w DO degrees you will find quite a few online.

The speciality while high paying is not competitive and allows DOs to match at solid programs. The lifestyle is the issue along with the other problems-narcotics patients, malpractice, awful hours etc. Also it's so hard to get into ortho that once in the fellowships are wide open. Furthermore, unlike say cardio, or retina, Many spine fellowships are not accredited-including the one at Stanford (an eg that quality of name does not equal accredition).

I wouldn't worry about getting a spine fellow as a do or md. I'd worry about getting into either residency to begin with. God there's a lot of nonsense in this thread here.

 

[cliquesh]

Ok first of all, there's a lot of BS in this thread so let me clarify. I know it's a bit old but for someone like me perusing through, this kind of info can only mislead the uninitiated.

I don't think this thread is that full of fail. There were roughly 4000 DO graduates last year, about 85 matched AOA othro and 3 matched ACGME Ortho. In 2010, 7 DOs matched ACGME Othro hand surgery (out of 139 spots) and 0 matched AOA ortho hand surgery. I couldn't find any specifics on ACGME ortho spine surgery but I'd imagine the numbers are similar. I know, however, there were 150 applicants for ~125 ACGME ortho spine spots, and only ~90 people matched. I would guess about 5 DOs matched spine surgery, which is on par with all other ACGME surgical fellowships, such as vascular and critical care.

So I would agree that it is slightly easier, as a DO, to land an ACGME surgical fellowship than to land an ACGME surgical residency, but I wouldn't say it is a sure thing by any means.

 

[surag]

I don't think this thread is that full of fail. There were roughly 4000 DO graduates last year, about 85 matched AOA othro and 3 matched ACGME Ortho. In 2010, 7 DOs matched ACGME Othro hand surgery (out of 139 spots) and 0 matched AOA ortho hand surgery. I couldn't find any specifics on ACGME ortho spine surgery but I'd imagine the numbers are similar. I know, however, there were 150 applicants for ~125 ACGME ortho spine spots, and only ~90 people matched. I would guess about 5 DOs matched spine surgery, which is on par with all other ACGME surgical fellowships, such as vascular and critical care.

So I would agree that it is slightly easier, as a DO, to land an ACGME surgical fellowship than to land an ACGME surgical residency, but I wouldn't say it is a sure thing by any means.

Couple of things. 1. You can get spine training in a DO program if you so wish. thats one thing. The posters indicated that its very hard to become a DO spine surgeon and that there were very few of them. They didnt mention it had to be ACGME training only.

That said, even ACGME trained DO spine surgeons are abound. plenty. Mayo, Hopkins, Cleveland Clinic, University of Rochester, throughout the past several years and more at lesser programs-which you can find by doing simple searches through google. One way to do so is to look for currently practicing doctors who list their education

That said, many spine fellowships dont even bother to mention who they are training, for whatever reason. As a result, the data on spine fellows is unscientific and hard to come by. But searching for this information will help you recognize its not nearly as bad to land one. More importantly (and this is what I lend weight to) a lot of orthopedic surgeons have personally told me that its much easier to land a spine fellowsihp. Will it get harder if it becomes more lucrative in the eyes of future residents? yes. Will more residents choose it? I dont know.