Surgical Residencies

[mgb39]

Is general surgery attainable as a graduating DO after the 2020 residency merger?

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[Cath Up]

Nobody knows yet. probably will be attainable for better DO students/USMLE/COMLEX performers. But unclear where cutoffs will be.

 

[Moose A Moose]

Nope. Just family medicine in the Midwest.

 

[bears1992]

Nope. Just family medicine in the Midwest.

Dang it. I was hoping to practice pediatric neurosurgery in Manhattan. Guess I'll just go sell insurance...

 

[mgb39]

Nobody knows yet. probably will be attainable for better DO students/USMLE/COMLEX performers. But unclear where cutoffs will be.

Thank you, does it matter whether you graduate from a new or an established school in terms of going on to residency?

 

[Cath Up]

Thank you, does it matter whether you graduate from a new or an established school in terms of going on to residency?

I am not the best person to answer this question. I have only read what others on this site think.

My understanding is that currently (pre-merger) the majority of ACGME residency PDs, particularly for competitive residencies, group all DO schools into one category that is seen less favorably than MD programs. A not insignificant subset of competitive residencies are considered to be completely closed to DOs. It seems like a subset of PDs recognize certain DO schools as solid feeder schools for their programs. New schools will not have this slight advantage.

Post-merger, no one knows. Though I have read that there will be residencies with osteopathic distinction, which I think we can assume favor DOs.

My guess is DOs that want to enter into general surgery post-merger (that do not have incredible stats that make them competitive at historically ACGME residencies) will have the best shot at residencies that were historically AOA and exist post-merger. Though, I have seen some people express concern that some historically AOA programs will stop accepting DOs in favor of MDs, or at least accept proportionally more MDs. It seems to me like DO stats for general surgery have a better chance of going up (you need to be a better student and take USMLE step 1) than staying the same or going down.

 

[allantois]

Thank you, does it matter whether you graduate from a new or an established school in terms of going on to residency?

If you are talking about a school like BCOM or LUCOM, then yes they are not established and nobody is familiar with them.

 

[mgb39]

If you are talking about a school like BCOM or LUCOM, then yes they are not established and nobody is familiar with them.

Is that a considerable factor for PDs?

 

[Cath Up]

Is that a considerable factor for PDs?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

See page 3.

 

[workaholic181]

Is general surgery attainable as a graduating DO after the 2020 residency merger?

DOs will definitely still land GS residencies. I personally believe attending a more established DO school benefits one but ultimately you can achieve the scores anywhere to get into surgery.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yes general surgery is still a reasonable goal for a DO who is above the 50th percentile in their class and does above average on boards. It's not like the subs where you essentially need to be perfect.

 

[osteodoc7]

I think this upcoming merger will only remove some of the remaining stigma that might still be around towards DO's. It's a step towards getting into the heads of the narrow minded individuals and convincing them that a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine is as efficient as his allopathic counterpart. I think this merger will be a positive for the DO programs. I see DO vs MD medical school becoming a similar analogy to the medical school applicant that attended a small regional university vs a nationally ranked university. Sure some medical schools have significant bias towards ivy leagues schools or top ranked institutions. However, we all know plenty of kids that got into top tier medical schools coming from unheard of small regional universities. The "prestige" of the institution you received your degree from has always influenced your application. A 3.5 at Princeton undergrad always looked better than a 3.5 at Never Heard Of U. But as long as you perform in the class, on the boards and in research you'll get the residency.

P.S, I think the reason its harder to get into specialties coming from a DO is most importantly associated to you as an individual. The reality is, DO programs have applicants with lower GPA and MCAT scores. Unless something changes while in medical school (which happens often enough), you will most likely apply for residencies with lower board scores and research experience.

 

[MTRN406]

I think this upcoming merger will only remove some of the remaining stigma that might still be around towards DO's. It's a step towards getting into the heads of the narrow minded individuals and convincing them that a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine is as efficient as his allopathic counterpart. I think this merger will be a positive for the DO programs. I see DO vs MD medical school becoming a similar analogy to the medical school applicant that attended a small regional university vs a nationally ranked university. Sure some medical schools have significant bias towards ivy leagues schools or top ranked institutions. However, we all know plenty of kids that got into top tier medical schools coming from unheard of small regional universities. The "prestige" of the institution you received your degree from has always influenced your application. A 3.5 at Princeton undergrad always looked better than a 3.5 at Never Heard Of U. But as long as you perform in the class, on the boards and in research you'll get the residency.

P.S, I think the reason its harder to get into specialties coming from a DO is most importantly associated to you as an individual. The reality is, DO programs have applicants with lower GPA and MCAT scores. Unless something changes while in medical school (which happens often enough), you will most likely apply for residencies with lower board scores and research experience.

It is also inherently more difficult to do the things that you need to do to become a competitive applicant for competitive specialties at most DO schools. At an MD school, there is usually a hospital next door where you can go do research and get recommendations from people who are well established in the field who can help you get residencies. That's difficult to do if you're in some place like Dothan, Alabama or Cumberland Gap, Tennessee. Add to that the extra time you have to spend learning OMM and studying for two sets of boards, and you can see that the physical environment itself stacks the odds against you, even if there is minimal prejudice against DOs just for the sake of them being DOs by program directors.

 

[zuzuspetals8]

I am a D.O. MS-4 currently mulling through the grind that is general surgery residency interview season. In speaking openly with other interviewees when I'm traveling to these interviews, it is clear that being a D.O. puts you at a disadvantage in obtaining a M.D. general surgery residency slot. Some areas are also worse than others, like the south. Let me use my stats as an example:

I attend a well established D.O. school (been around 117 years). COMLEX 616 and 704, top 10% of my class, honors in surgery and IM with shining LORS from 2 general surgeons and 1 neurosugeon. USMLE 229 and 245. 1 research experience and previous experience in healthcare before medical school.

I applied to 20 D.O. schools and 46 M.D. schools (mind you all in the southeast from VA to TX). I landed 11 D.O. interviews and had not ONE M.D. interview invite. Not one.

In talking to my D.O. peers applying to GS, they are experiencing similar feedback. Maybe not quite as dramatic as mine, but they are only getting M.D. interviews in places like North and South Dakota, Michigan, Ohio, NJ, NY, a few in Cali. Most of these applicants also have USMLE scores far greater than mine.

This is for 2018 residency year, I don't think much will change in two years by 2020. My guess is that D.O. programs will likely continue to favor D.O. applicants and M.D. will do the same. If anything, D.O.s will have it even harder than we do now. The truth is that most M.D. programs don't care about COMLEX and favor their own.

My advice to upcoming D.O. candidates applying to general surgery is this:
1. You must kill the USMLE
2. Apply to all the programs that are/were AOA before the merger.
3. You absolutely HAVE to be willing to cast a wide net and be accepting of the fact that you could and will likely be moving somewhere you never thought you would ever have to go.
4. Try to do research and get your names on some papers. I never really thought it mattered but it seems to be a common theme among selected GS M.D. applicants.
5. If you want to go somewhere, you must do an interview rotation there and you must make them give you an interview. You have to be a stellar interviewer!

I was under the impression that I was a competitive canditate based on encouraging words from student affairs and residency coordinator at my school but they were wrong. I don't want to discourage anyone from applying to GS. This world needs D.O. general surgeons. But better to hear this now rather than during application season when it comes as a huge and unexpected shock.

Good luck to everyone and I'm open to questions.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I am a D.O. MS-4 currently mulling through the grind that is general surgery residency interview season. In speaking openly with other interviewees when I'm traveling to these interviews, it is clear that being a D.O. puts you at a disadvantage in obtaining a M.D. general surgery residency slot. Some areas are also worse than others, like the south. Let me use my stats as an example:

I attend a well established D.O. school (been around 117 years). COMLEX 616 and 704, top 10% of my class, honors in surgery and IM with shining LORS from 2 general surgeons and 1 neurosugeon. USMLE 229 and 245. 1 research experience and previous experience in healthcare before medical school.

I applied to 20 D.O. schools and 46 M.D. schools (mind you all in the southeast from VA to TX). I landed 11 D.O. interviews and had not ONE M.D. interview invite. Not one.

In talking to my D.O. peers applying to GS, they are experiencing similar feedback. Maybe not quite as dramatic as mine, but they are only getting M.D. interviews in places like North and South Dakota, Michigan, Ohio, NJ, NY, a few in Cali. Most of these applicants also have USMLE scores far greater than mine.

This is for 2018 residency year, I don't think much will change in two years by 2020. My guess is that D.O. programs will likely continue to favor D.O. applicants and M.D. will do the same. If anything, D.O.s will have it even harder than we do now. The truth is that most M.D. programs don't care about COMLEX and favor their own.

My advice to upcoming D.O. candidates applying to general surgery is this:
1. You must kill the USMLE
2. Apply to all the programs that are/were AOA before the merger.
3. You absolutely HAVE to be willing to cast a wide net and be accepting of the fact that you could and will likely be moving somewhere you never thought you would ever have to go.
4. Try to do research and get your names on some papers. I never really thought it mattered but it seems to be a common theme among selected GS M.D. applicants.
5. If you want to go somewhere, you must do an interview rotation there and you must make them give you an interview. You have to be a stellar interviewer!

I was under the impression that I was a competitive canditate based on encouraging words from student affairs and residency coordinator at my school but they were wrong. I don't want to discourage anyone from applying to GS. This world needs D.O. general surgeons. But better to hear this now rather than during application season when it comes as a huge and unexpected shock.

Good luck to everyone and I'm open to questions.

Anothe illustrations that ACGME PDs don’t care about COMLEX scores

 

[Goro]

Is general surgery attainable as a graduating DO after the 2020 residency merger?

I will wager it will be difficult but not impossible. Only some 5% of my students have gone into ACGME Gen Surg residencies. The wise SouthernSurgeon has written in these for a as to what it takes to snag a surgical residency.

Keep in mind that it can be hard for MD grads as well. Generally, at 7-12% of MD grads go into surgery. I think the highest I've seen was from one of the southern schools (and not a major one like Emory or Vandy)...about 22% did Gen Surg!

 

[mfrey28]

Can anyone comment on matching GS through the military?

 

[RinShanKaiHo]

I am a D.O. MS-4 currently mulling through the grind that is general surgery residency interview season. In speaking openly with other interviewees when I'm traveling to these interviews, it is clear that being a D.O. puts you at a disadvantage in obtaining a M.D. general surgery residency slot. Some areas are also worse than others, like the south. Let me use my stats as an example:

I attend a well established D.O. school (been around 117 years). COMLEX 616 and 704, top 10% of my class, honors in surgery and IM with shining LORS from 2 general surgeons and 1 neurosugeon. USMLE 229 and 245. 1 research experience and previous experience in healthcare before medical school.

I applied to 20 D.O. schools and 46 M.D. schools (mind you all in the southeast from VA to TX). I landed 11 D.O. interviews and had not ONE M.D. interview invite. Not one.

In talking to my D.O. peers applying to GS, they are experiencing similar feedback. Maybe not quite as dramatic as mine, but they are only getting M.D. interviews in places like North and South Dakota, Michigan, Ohio, NJ, NY, a few in Cali. Most of these applicants also have USMLE scores far greater than mine.

This is for 2018 residency year, I don't think much will change in two years by 2020. My guess is that D.O. programs will likely continue to favor D.O. applicants and M.D. will do the same. If anything, D.O.s will have it even harder than we do now. The truth is that most M.D. programs don't care about COMLEX and favor their own.

My advice to upcoming D.O. candidates applying to general surgery is this:
1. You must kill the USMLE
2. Apply to all the programs that are/were AOA before the merger.
3. You absolutely HAVE to be willing to cast a wide net and be accepting of the fact that you could and will likely be moving somewhere you never thought you would ever have to go.
4. Try to do research and get your names on some papers. I never really thought it mattered but it seems to be a common theme among selected GS M.D. applicants.
5. If you want to go somewhere, you must do an interview rotation there and you must make them give you an interview. You have to be a stellar interviewer!

I was under the impression that I was a competitive canditate based on encouraging words from student affairs and residency coordinator at my school but they were wrong. I don't want to discourage anyone from applying to GS. This world needs D.O. general surgeons. But better to hear this now rather than during application season when it comes as a huge and unexpected shock.

Good luck to everyone and I'm open to questions.

I have a first author paper on a decent journal (if~7.5) in an unrelated field. How does that look or I need pubs in related field to the specialty?