DO versus St. George/ Ross

[jaadu1981]

While Im waiting to hear from US med schools, I am thinking about applying to DO schools or to Ross/St. George's in the Carribean to have some options. I looked into the residency placement rates for the carribean med schools and 90% of the students get residencies in the US and have a pass rate of 93% of the USMLE's step 1 (which is 1% better than the US interestingly). I was just wondering what everyone's opinion was on DO's or MD's from the Carribean?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[virilep]

I've recently interviewed at a couple of schools in the US, but for some reason, I feel that I should keep my options open and think about applying to DO schools or to Ross/St. George's in the Carribean. I looked into the residency placement rates for the carribean med schools and 90% of the students get residencies in the US and have a pass rate of 93% of the USMLE's step 1 (which is 1% better than the US interestingly). I was just wondering what everyone's opinion was on DO's or MD's from the Carribean?

do a thread search dude...

 

[imrep1972]

While Im waiting to hear from US med schools, I am thinking about applying to DO schools or to Ross/St. George's in the Carribean to have some options. I looked into the residency placement rates for the carribean med schools and 90% of the students get residencies in the US and have a pass rate of 93% of the USMLE's step 1 (which is 1% better than the US interestingly). I was just wondering what everyone's opinion was on DO's or MD's from the Carribean?

I was in your boat just a month ago or so. Another option to consider is either a post-bac, or a special master's program (SMP) to burnish your resume. Take a look at the Post-bac folder, and you will get a lot more info.

I was going to go to the Caribbean, but I have now been accepted to Georgetown's SMP. I will be in the program for a year, and, assuming I do well, should have a much better shot at a US Allopathic next year.

 

[ntmed]

While Im waiting to hear from US med schools, I am thinking about applying to DO schools or to Ross/St. George's in the Carribean to have some options. I looked into the residency placement rates for the carribean med schools and 90% of the students get residencies in the US and have a pass rate of 93% of the USMLE's step 1 (which is 1% better than the US interestingly). I was just wondering what everyone's opinion was on DO's or MD's from the Carribean?

Be careful about where you get your stats from. The USMLE pass rate for IMGs has always been about 50%. And of those who pass the USMLE, the match rate for IMGs has also been about 50%. This means only 1 in 4 people who go to a foreign medical school will get into a U.S. residency.

Both the USMLE pass rate and the match rate for IMGs have been a little higher the last couple years. So the overall success rate is probably closer to 33%, not the 90% you were told. This means that about 66% of people who attend a foreign medical school will not be able to practice medicine in the U.S.

http://www.usmle.org/scores/medlic.htm

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/data_tables.html

The advice others gave is good. Do a post-bacc or graduate program and repply to a U.S. school. It will be well worth it.

 

[IMbound]

I do agree that your best bet is to try to get into a US school. But if it doesn't work out SGU is a very good place to go. The final writer did mention the low first pass rate and residency attainment rate for IMGs. That is not the case for SGU students. The percents you have written are correct. That is our first time pass rate for step 1 is 93% and for step 2 90%. Also the great majority do attain residencies. Now, having said that, students from US schools will always get better residencies on average. Especially for the competitive residencies such as Derm, Optho, Ortho, Urology, Neurosurg. But we from SGU do get great residencies every year in Int. Med, Peds, Psych, Ob/Gyn, Gen Surg, Anesth, and ER. Students from DO schools tend to have similar choices as SGU when it comes to interviewing for residencies. I am going for Internal Med and I saw many DOs on the interview trail along with me. Final though, try your best to get into a US school. The post-bac programs can get you in to Med school the next year but they vary greatly in how successful they are in getting you into a US med school. I remember that a friend went to a post bac program in philly (I believe it was the one that Drexel University offers). There were 30 people in the post bac class and they were going for 3 spots in the Med school the next year. He ended up at SGU and now he justed finished specialization in Nephrology at Downstate University in NYC. Anyway, good luck, and I hope I was of help.

 

[JAMMAN]

In the end, the MD after your name will keep more doors open for you. So, strive for that above else.

 

[sixteenstones]

In the end, the MD after your name will keep more doors open for you. So, strive for that above else.

whatever dude. An MD opens no more doors than a DO. It's all the same.

 

[NNguyenMD]

whatever dude. An MD opens no more doors than a DO. It's all the same.

not in disagreement with you brother

 

[NNguyenMD]

While Im waiting to hear from US med schools, I am thinking about applying to DO schools or to Ross/St. George's in the Carribean to have some options. I looked into the residency placement rates for the carribean med schools and 90% of the students get residencies in the US and have a pass rate of 93% of the USMLE's step 1 (which is 1% better than the US interestingly). I was just wondering what everyone's opinion was on DO's or MD's from the Carribean?

the attrition rate at SGU is remarkably higher than a normal US medical school. In the first year its as high as 30%, according to a family member who went there for medical school.

 

[IMbound]

In my class of 280 we had around 20 people leave during or after the first semester. We do, after all, move to another country leaving friends and family behind. Many aren't ready. The ones who stay really want to be a doctor no matter what. That is what drives SGU students to get good residencies afterwards. We all really want that. Some students decelerate their course work to take 1 semester over 1 year. That also contributes to the attrition rate.

 

[HoodyHoo]

In the end, the MD after your name will keep more doors open for you. So, strive for that above else.

you are a douche, and will remain so with that closed-minded attitude. some of the DO's you interact with will be more competent, better overall physicians than yourself, how are you gonna handle that????????????

 

[ntmed]

you are a douche, and will remain so with that closed-minded attitude. some of the DO's you interact with will be more competent, better overall physicians than yourself, how are you gonna handle that????????????

Who let the troll in? Where's my fly swatter so I can smack it.

 

[jaadu1981]

In my class of 280 we had around 20 people leave during or after the first semester. We do, after all, move to another country leaving friends and family behind. Many aren't ready. The ones who stay really want to be a doctor no matter what. That is what drives SGU students to get good residencies afterwards. We all really want that. Some students decelerate their course work to take 1 semester over 1 year. That also contributes to the attrition rate.

Hello,
This question is for any of those people who attend St. George, I was just wondering, how do your respond to people who say that the stats on residencies and USMLE pass rates from St.George are just made up. Someone I spoke to advised me to be careful because Carribean offshore schools need to speak highly in order to continue attracting students to their schoosl. Also, I see that you are at St. George, I was just wondering besides the fact that its an offshore schools, how else is it different from the US med schools? For instance, is the class load the same? facilities? etc. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[tkim]

easy, people. everyone's entitled to their opinions.

 

[crys20]

these threads pop up daily seemingly.

the bottom line is that dos are more respected than fmgs. most people would take DO over foreign in a second, however there are some that NEED that md after their name. i would advise really learning about both options before making a decision.

 

[Yosh]

Why even entertain the DO vs MD battle? In the end..we will all be collegues...everyone is trying to get to the same place....wouldn't it be better to build each other up...rather than constantly try and tear each other down???

 

[NNguyenMD]

Why even entertain the DO vs MD battle? In the end..we will all be collegues...everyone is trying to get to the same place....wouldn't it be better to build each other up...rather than constantly try and tear each other down???

Don't forget you're talking to med student friend, complaining, insecurity, competition, and the constant need to one-up the next guy is what these guys were born to do!

Call me jaded, but my opinion of med students, only gets more discouraged with the longer time I have to spend here.

 

[EPA7X1]

Better to go Osteopathic than Caribbean. I don't know a single MD who looks down on DOs. I cannot say the same about people from off-shore schools. There are some fine Osteopathic schools and I have seen DOs working along with MDs in many fields.

 

[JAMMAN]

Better to go Osteopathic than Caribbean. I don't know a single MD who looks down on DOs. I cannot say the same about people from off-shore schools. There are some fine Osteopathic schools and I have seen DOs working along with MDs in many fields.

I am not saying that a DO is a worse physician or that an offshore MD is better. But I will state that there is a stigma attached to DOs in many allopathic residency and fellowship programs.

To those who disagree with me...I am speaking from experience. Offshore MDs are often chosen over DOs for competitive residency spots. This is a fact. This is true for surgery and surgical subspecialties in particular.

This is less of a factor in primary care specialties, but if you plan on doing a competitive medical subspecialty like cardiology or gastroenterology, then it becomes important again.

Sure, there are DOs and offshore MDs in all specialties, but the advantage is afforded the offshore MD...like it or not.

 

[IMbound]

Hello,
This question is for any of those people who attend St. George, I was just wondering, how do your respond to people who say that the stats on residencies and USMLE pass rates from St.George are just made up. Someone I spoke to advised me to be careful because Carribean offshore schools need to speak highly in order to continue attracting students to their schoosl. Also, I see that you are at St. George, I was just wondering besides the fact that its an offshore schools, how else is it different from the US med schools? For instance, is the class load the same? facilities? etc. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks

In my class of 280 alone there were only around 20 people or so who didn't pass in their first try. The stats are real because we have to send the school our scores before we start our third year clinicals. The residency stats are real also because we know how many people are applying for the match and we again reply to our school with what program we matched with. Again, it is NOT like graduating from an US school. For example, Urology is one of the hardest residencies to get nowadays. If you look at our 8 year match list on the SGU site, there were only 2-3 people who matched in urology over that period. If you look at the stats of any 1 US school you may have 1-2 people match every year in Urology. In reply to other questions you asked, our class size is between 250-300 and we have 2 entering classes per year: an August class and a Jan. class. The facilities are very good. The location is beautiful. I welcome any other questions.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

I looked into the residency placement rates for the carribean med schools and 90% of the students get residencies in the US and have a pass rate of 93% of the USMLE's step 1 (which is 1% better than the US interestingly).

SGU is an excellent school, but its percentage is misleading. From one of my older posts:

The board pass rates at the major non-AAMC Caribbean schools (i.e. SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba) are surprisingly high [around 80% for AUC and higher for the others (higher than 90% in some)], if I remember correctly. HOWEVER, these numbers are misleading due to high attrition (read: flunking out) or deceleration (read: getting held back / forced to slow down). I've stated this before, but it is not fair to compare DO passing rates (COMLEX) with MD passing rates. You can argue that some osteopathic schools claim 90%+ pass rates on COMLEX, but when I last checked, the national first time pass rate on the USMLE Step I (the test for allopathic residencies) for the past few years was around 75-80%. Again, some Caribbean schools range from 80-90+ percent (but again, there's the issue of attrition, shelf exams, and deceleration so the numbers are misleading). MDs do not take the COMLEX and are not eligible to do so. Therefore, you cannot evaluate how they would perform on the non-OMM sections of the COMLEX. Bringing up the COMLEX proves little and does not make for good comparisons. The point is that a comparison of Caribbean med students and osteopathic students on the USMLE Step 1 or USMLE vs. COMLEX is not easy or useful to evaluate.

ntmed, this is probably true:

Be careful about where you get your stats from. The USMLE pass rate for IMGs has always been about 50%. And of those who pass the USMLE, the match rate for IMGs has also been about 50%. This means only 1 in 4 people who go to a foreign medical school will get into a U.S. residency.

Both the USMLE pass rate and the match rate for IMGs have been a little higher the last couple years. So the overall success rate is probably closer to 33%, not the 90% you were told. This means that about 66% of people who attend a foreign medical school will not be able to practice medicine in the U.S.

http://www.usmle.org/scores/medlic.htm

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/data_tables.html

The advice others gave is good. Do a post-bacc or graduate program and repply to a U.S. school. It will be well worth it.

BUT just to echo IMbound's comment:

St. George's and Ross are not like typical foreign medical schools. Although SGU and Ross' pass rates are somewhat misleading, the pass rates are significantly higher than 50%.

This question is for any of those people who attend St. George, I was just wondering, how do your respond to people who say that the stats on residencies and USMLE pass rates from St.George are just made up.

I'm not an SGU student, but I know a lot about it. I have a relative that goes there and I'd just like to reiterate: the stats are not made up, but ARE misleading

these threads pop up daily seemingly.

the bottom line is that dos are more respected than fmgs. most people would take DO over foreign in a second, however there are some that NEED that md after their name. i would advise really learning about both options before making a decision.

While I have great respect for osteopathic medicine, this is simply unfair. If you want to argue that some US students choose osteopathic schools over US allopathic schools when given the choice, I'll acknowledge that. If you want to say that 99.9999999% of US students in SGU/Ross/AUC/Saba are US MD rejects, I'll even acknowledge that. I will acknowledge that the best physician I've ever had the privilege of shadowing was a DO.

I will NOT acknowledge that it is solely for the MD degree. While this may be a significant and frequent reason why students attend Caribbean schools, I am sick of hearing the pre-DOs and DOs bash people for choosing the Caribbean route and assuming that it's just "so they can get the MD."

Did you ever consider that some people just don't want to do OMM? I will tell you that I am intrigued my many aspects of osteopathic manipulative medicine but I have my reservations. Specifically, I feel that some of the craniosacral manipulations are questionable. A study of the history of osteopathy reveals that Still was largely a revolutionist against the common "allopathic" medicine of the time which was unfounded, unproven, and ineffective (e.g., bloodletting). And yet, some of the craniosacral manipulations, which strike me as unfounded, unproven, and ineffective are a major part of the osteopathic education. I understand that there is much research going into OMM, but this strikes me as strange thinking. Osteopathic researchers are trying to evaluate whether the treatment works while these unproven treatments are taught in the osteopathic curriculum. In my opinion, the craniosacral manipulations should be proven effective first if they are to be included in the curriculum. Until that happens, I feel the manipulations should not be taught. In contrast, many of the lower back modalities have been proven, and I'm cool with that. If you take a look at the Osteopathic Forum, you will see that many DO students who love OMM do NOT believe in some of the craniosacral manipulations they are taught. The amount of time spent in the manual medicine component of osteopathic medical school curricula is significant. Some people simply are not willing to spend this time if they have no interest in it. Furthermore, some specialties are not well suited for OMM. If a person aspires to be a radiologist, for example, OMM will not bear a significant role in the physician's practice. In contrast, family practitioners and physical medicine and rehabilitation physicians may find OMM highly efficacious and useful. The point here is that people do not just go to the Caribbean for the MD.

Lastly, you blanketed FMGs as less respected. This is simply unfair and you did not even specify your reasoning, which I suspect deals specifically with US MD rejects. It is especially unfair to apply this to FMGs who attended medical schools in their native countries and trained in the US. I have close relatives that are FMGs that did their residencies in highly respected hospitals, including one that belonged to a prestigious Ivy League at the time, and both of these relatives went on to highly competitive fellowships. One went into pediatric cardiology and the other went into open-heart anesthesia. My relatives were highly respected when they were practicing physicians. One of my relatives shared ALL of a Hopkins-trained, American, general surgeon's cases and this GS was considered the best in the area (this was in addition to many other cases). The Hopkins grad respected his work that much and felt my relative was one of the best he had ever worked with. If less respect is given to FMGs who receive equal training, that shows nothing but prejudice and discrimination. Such thinking should be eliminated, not propagated.

I think we often get too caught up in silly trivial battles over which is better. Often we belittle our fellow colleagues. For what reason, I am not sure. Don't we have the same telos?

I think SDN's founder realizes something that many of us do not: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1606369&postcount=1

Why even entertain the DO vs MD battle? In the end..we will all be collegues...everyone is trying to get to the same place....wouldn't it be better to build each other up...rather than constantly try and tear each other down???

AMEN

 

[MD Dreams]

Hello,
This question is for any of those people who attend St. George, I was just wondering, how do your respond to people who say that the stats on residencies and USMLE pass rates from St.George are just made up. Someone I spoke to advised me to be careful because Carribean offshore schools need to speak highly in order to continue attracting students to their schoosl. Also, I see that you are at St. George, I was just wondering besides the fact that its an offshore schools, how else is it different from the US med schools? For instance, is the class load the same? facilities? etc. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks[/QUOT

I'm in my final term down here at SGU. This is my advice to you: Before you consider SGU or an osteopathic school try with all of your effort at least two times to get into a US medical school. This is not because I think that you'll be a better doctor if you go to a US med school, but your life with be easier without the stigma.

Having said that, I am very greatful at SGU for giving me a chance to become an MD when no one else would. The two negatives about this place would be 1)It can be tough to be away from the states and home during med school 2)Many of the teachers leave much to be desired. I don't know how other medical schools are, but I had to teach myself many of the subjects. With respect to your other questions, the facilities are up to date and provide you with what you need to learn. The class size is about twice as large as a US med school (~250-300) and two classes start each year. As far as people dropping out, I'm glad because they were obviously here for the wrong reasons.

As far as passing the USMLE, if you come down here to study and do just that you will pass the USMLE and you may even do very well on it -- it's up to you. The previous post was referring to foreign med schools that cator to individuals whose first language is not english. Don't let this issue bother you. Secondly, you will get a residency spot in the US. However, if you are shooting for highly competitive residencies it will be much more difficult, and perhpas impossible for a few, perhaps! Also, you will find that once you get into the clinical years, your performance, character, integrity, passion, etc. will play a much more vital role in how others view you than where you went to school. I have seen individuals come through here whom I think will be magnificent physicians and whom I would be honored to call colleagues. On the other hands, there are those whom I have great reservations about. The bottom line, if you want nothing else but to become a doctor, and other doors have been closed to you, you will achieve you goal at SGU, and also at other Carribbean/foregin school (?) and at osteopathic schools. Your road will be more challenging for sure, but you will have the chance to make your dream come true. I only have 11 more weeks and I'll be done with my basic science years, so I've tried to convey my experience to you and I hope it helped, at least to a small degree. All the best.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Good luck with Match Day, MD Dreams--St. Pat's is just around the corner.

 

[DD214_DOC]

The average stats at SGU are higher than at most DO schools. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[allendo]

Hey you guys need to wake up!!! The D.O. and M.D. worlds are coming together and yes D.O.'s are chosen in residency over FMG's thats just the facts!!!! Sorry dont want to hurt feelings but thats how it is!! In my town all the D.O.'s did M.D. residency and we have them in every specialty so Jamman has the wrong tune playin. The top guy from a carrib school can do well but think about how many carrib schools there are and then how many non carib grads are trying to get in also. And if carrib schools are so good why cant they get licensed in TEXAS!!! Thats why I didnt go carrib!! Some people still have a stigma about D.O.s but very few practice OMM anymore and work perfectly well beside M.D.s Hey but I will be jealous of your tan!!

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Whoa there. You CAN get licensed in Texas coming from the Caribbean medical schools. However, you have to follow the fairly strict Texas guidelines to prove substantial equivalence of education. For example, you have to perform the proper family practice and neurology rotations. There are guidelines for this. But it is false to say that you can't get a Texas license from the Caribbean. Texas gives Caribbean students a harder time (I'm not sure why) and if they want Texas licensure they need to do a little bit of the old hoop jumping, but again, you can get a license coming from the Caribbean. This has been discussed in the General Discussion for Internationals and IMGs forum.

 

[allendo]

Oh yes thats why Ross was spending so much money in lawyer fees fighting the texas state medical board?? And also why St. Matts cant get approved, call em they told me last year they were not accepting applications from fmgs!!!!!!! I dont know about st george but some of the schools are having a hell of a hard time....

 

[Sainttpk]

Sometimes I do not get this forum, if you want to be a doctor so bad, then why does it matter if you have the Letters M.D. or D.O. behind your name? Why go to a foreign school when you can enjoy the advantages of living in the United States. If having an M.D. behind your name is so important then maybe you should just go offshore.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

allendo,

Please read my post. I'm not going to deny that legal disputes have occurred. And I did not say that these schools have guaranteed licensure for Texas. You're correct--these schools do not. However, students from these schools can receive licensure if they follow Texas' guidelines for licensure. Whenever a person decides to go to a foreign medical school, he/she should know the possible licensure issues. Non-LCME, AAMC Caribbean grads have to prove "Substantial Equivalence of Their Education." By default, they will not receive licensure, but by abiding by the guidelines, they can.

These are the schools that do NOT have to prove equivalence:
http://www.tsbme.state.tx.us/professionals/docinfo/doclic.htm

But that doesn't mean that you have to be from one of these schools to gain licensure in Texas. Again, that's not the case. You need to prove "substantial equivalence of education."

St. Matt's has more problems with Texas. It's less established and much newer than some of its fellow Caribbean med schools. Honestly, I don't know the specifics on St. Matt's. But I do know that the limitations of St. Matt's have been specified on the ValueMD website--and by a faculty member of St. Matt's if I remember correctly. Some Caribbean schools have major licensure issues, others do not. You've gotta be aware of caveat emptor no matter where you go, especially if you go to a foreign med school. But for other states, St. Matt's is a reasonable option.

 

[novacek88]

Being a D.O., hopefully I can offer some objective advice. Mind you, I'm writing this from the perspective of a pre-medical student so I don't necessarily agree with these opinions but here we go.

Advantages of going foreign MD

1. You don't have to learn OMM which is an additional responsibility. No, DO schools do not go lighter in other areas because you are taught OMM. That's a myth. DO schools are arguably more difficult than MD schools because of the additional OMM responsibility.

2. You get the M.D. title.

3. DO's are requred to take the COMLEX but many elect to take the USMLE too out of practicality so as a DO, you will most likely take both exams unless you are content with going into a very non-competitive field or hospital that gladly accepts COMLEX scores in exchange for USMLE scores.


Advantages of going DO

1. More opportunities to specialize and many parts of this country are clearly pro-DO so much so that they have nearly equal footing with M.D. 's such as the midwest. Obviously in some fields, DO and FMG's are in the same boat like surgery but fields like PM&R clearly favor DO's and have a history of matching DO's without any real discrimination.

2. You get to stay at home and not worry about traveling for rotations (of course this doesn't apply to all DO schools see AZCOM)

3. Licensure issues-I know this is not a big deal but some states do have issues with FMG's like Texas. You will probably be able to bypass such issues in reality but it still makes it a pain in the arse.

 

[JMK2005]

Being a D.O., hopefully I can offer some objective advice. Mind you, I'm writing this from the perspective of a pre-medical student so I don't necessarily agree with these opinions but here we go.

How does that qualify you as a D.O.????

 

[Phil Anthropist]

How does that qualify you as a D.O.????

I believe novacek is saying that he (or she, sorry I don't know) is a DO.

Novacek is writing as if he were a pre-medical student (but again is a DO). In other words, novacek is trying to imagine how a pre-med would see the options and is trying to do it from an objective point of view. Make sense?

I agree with most of novacek's post

 

[JMK2005]

Make sense?

Yes..Yes... very clever and solid post!

 

[drtongue_danger]

I looked into going to Ross or SGM here is what made me change my mind
1. cost- SGM is costs a lot of cash to attened when you compare it to other MD schools
2. class size- SGM or Ross has much bigger class sizes than US schools (MD or DO) and they take in 3 class's a year.
3. liveing condition. I don't know about SGM but i have heard that Ross is a pretty run down place, which can be good because you are there to study not to play. but it was not for me
4. issues with different states like Texas

this all being said I think a great doctors come from SGM and Ross. I work at a hosbital and one of the best doctors here went to SGM.

do what ever floats your boat

 

[Freeeedom!]

That "stigma" thing is pure BS. It boils down to "if you want to learn OMT then become a DO"
But as a senior resident, I actively interview, grade, and RANK potential residents for our EM residency. At most, we will ONLY rank 1 FMG in 80 rank positions. 1.
DO's we rank as many as the US MD grads. Why? If you have more than 1 FMG in your residency class per year, they will FLOOD your program with applications and the US grad applications will go down. Just a fact. Look at ANY internal medicine program, if they have 1 FMG in a class, they have 3 the year after so on and so forth. US MD graduates use the number of FMG's in a program as a watermark for quality NOT THE NUMBER OF DO's in a program.
Trust me, this is what I do.

As far as licensure, there is zero problem with DO licensure. But for FMG's it is a different story. I have recently decided to gain an additional state licensure and saw this on the Indiana Health Professions Bureau web page

"
The following foreign medical schools were reinstated for possible approval for licensure:

1. American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine (1984 to present)

2. Ross University of Medicine (1984 to present)

3. St. George's University School of Medicine ( 1984 to present)

4. UTESA School of Medicine (1986 to present)

5. CETEC University"

Hell, even Indiana is raising licensure eyebrow to the best off coast schools.

Really something to look at.

 

[crys20]

Sometimes I do not get this forum, if you want to be a doctor so bad, then why does it matter if you have the Letters M.D. or D.O. behind your name? Why go to a foreign school when you can enjoy the advantages of living in the United States. If having an M.D. behind your name is so important then maybe you should just go offshore.

This echoes my sentiments exactly. If the OP honestly doesn't know which option is going to give him MORE options, then it's obviously DO. Would I be off base to say that going to a good DO school is going to provide a better education, and better chance at landing better residencies? However, that may not be as important as the two letters after your name.

 

[IMbound]

That "stigma" thing is pure BS. It boils down to "if you want to learn OMT then become a DO"
But as a senior resident, I actively interview, grade, and RANK potential residents for our EM residency. At most, we will ONLY rank 1 FMG in 80 rank positions. 1.
DO's we rank as many as the US MD grads. Why? If you have more than 1 FMG in your residency class per year, they will FLOOD your program with applications and the US grad applications will go down. Just a fact. Look at ANY internal medicine program, if they have 1 FMG in a class, they have 3 the year after so on and so forth. US MD graduates use the number of FMG's in a program as a watermark for quality NOT THE NUMBER OF DO's in a program.
Trust me, this is what I do.

As far as licensure, there is zero problem with DO licensure. But for FMG's it is a different story. I have recently decided to gain an additional state licensure and saw this on the Indiana Health Professions Bureau web page

"
The following foreign medical schools were reinstated for possible approval for licensure:

1. American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine (1984 to present)

2. Ross University of Medicine (1984 to present)

3. St. George's University School of Medicine ( 1984 to present)

4. UTESA School of Medicine (1986 to present)

5. CETEC University"

Hell, even Indiana is raising licensure eyebrow to the best off coast schools.

Really something to look at.

Actually, this list means that those 5 schools ARE approved meaning that students from these schools CAN get licensure in Indiana. So indiana is straight out saying that these schools are accepted. Licensure may be an issue in Texas as they are one of the most stringent on FMGs. I don't think other boards are like this. I don't like how this discussion has degenerated into. I think that people should be able to voice their opinion without putting down either FMGs or DOs. In the end we are all DOCTORS. Having said that, some programs do look at DOs vs FMG MDs differently. It all depends on the students particular situation. It also really makes a difference what specialty you want to go into. ER is a very competitive field right now. But, SGU students do place in good ER programs across the country. In fact, we placed one at DUKE last year in ER. But it is difficult for us to place in specialties such as Derm, Urology, Neurosurg, radiology, radiation oncology. Then again, it is tough for many to place in these most competitive specialties. I really don't know how it is for DOs to place in these specialties but I'm willing to wager that it is harder for them to place than an american med grad.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I would recommend doing as search on this topic, as it has been discussed extensively. I will discuss a few points:

1. DO's overall have a much higher pass rate on the MD boards than do foreign MD's. In addition, DO's have their own boards, in which they have an even higher pass rate.

2. DO's have a higher acceptance rate into MD residencies overall than foreign MD's. DO's also are able to apply for DO residencies, so the opportunities are much greater.

3. DO's enjoy the same licensure rights as domestic MD's in all states. Foreign MD's cannot be licensed by certain states, and must go through a much more difficult accrediation process that do domestic MD's and DO's.

4. The people who have negative DO's are simply the ones who don't completely understand what they are. DO schools teach the exact same courses as MD schools, and add one more course. There are many DO schools that are national ranked in the top schools overall with MD's. You will not see any Foreign medical schools ranked, because after speaking to residency program directors, you will find that they are often hesitant to accept such applicants.

5. Keep in mind that when discussing "foreign medical grads" I am talking about schools such as in Mexico and the Caribbean that have minimal acceptance standards for students. Many of these schools don't even require an MCAT or a degree. It is because of these substandards that the limitations are true. If you talk about foreign graduates in first world countries such as Britain and Germany, then you will likely get equal training as that in the U.S.

Good luck on whatever decision you make. A good friend of mine is in medical school in Mexico, and enjoys it. He also regrets not considering D.O. schools however, and is hoping to transfer to one.
__________________

 

[Phil Anthropist]

From the same thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=2358947&postcount=15

 

[OSUdoc08]

From the same thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=2358947&postcount=15

poor arguments, that don't seem to negate any of the facts I have mentioned

you can argue it in 50 different directions, but being a foreign MD will always be a greater disadvantage than being a DO in every possible way

----all you have to do is look at admissions requirements and board scores---

 

[Phil Anthropist]

poor arguments, that don't seem to negate any of the facts I have mentioned

I asked you specific questions, but you did not respond to them. If my arguments were incorrect, feel free to correct me; I welcome your responses. And if my arguments were incorrect, why let me propagate false information? Again, feel free to correct me.

Some of your statements such as...

1. "Foreign MD's cannot be licensed by certain states."

2. "You will not see any Foreign medical schools ranked."

are false and misleading, respectively. If the arguments I proposed are poor, please feel free to enlighten me. I've made it clear that I support both FMGs as well as DOs.

Regarding (1): I have relatives who graduated from foreign medical schools who ARE licensed in ALL fifty states. While these are not Caribbean medical schools, the fact that my relatives graduated from foreign medical schools AND are licensed to practice in all fifty states clearly negates the first statement above.

Regarding (2): First, you do not mention what "rankings" you are referring to. Second, I believe you are referring to US News Primary Care rankings. And if so, foreign medical schools are, by definition, not considered in these rankings. The US News Graduate school rankings ALL rank only US schools. Even AAMC, LCME accredited schools in Canada are not considered. Therefore, while your statement is technically true, your reasoning for your statement ("You will not see any Foreign medical schools ranked."), "because after speaking to residency program directors, you will find that they are often hesitant to accept such applicants," is false. And your statement, any way you look at it, is misleading. To reiterate: only US medical schools are ranked on US medical school rankings because only schools in the United States are considered. This has nothing to do with residency program directors. That's why the special US News' annual rating, in both print and electronic form, is called "America's Best Graduate Schools."

I believe both of these facts clearly negate your logic. However, if you find these points fallacious, feel free to refute them. I welcome respectful discussion.

Phil

 

[Phil Anthropist]

you can argue it in 50 different directions, but being a foreign MD will always be a greater disadvantage than being a DO in every possible way

This is a non-sequitur. If you want to argue that the DO route is advantageous, fine, but that doesn't make your statements in the previous thread correct.

----all you have to do is look at admissions requirements and board scores---

I addressed this in the previous thread as well.

 

[cooldreams]

what is the point in argueing this?

i know WHY we do it, but really, there is little to no point.

here is the big WHY - because we have unoccupied time, and meandering thoughts. if we were in a state of emergency, you wouldnt care, doc = doc... your petty disputes subside to get the emergency gone. it is sad that it takes a time of crisis to unite people.

i would like to argue, that no matter what medical school you goto, the type and caliber of doctor you become is based on you. .................................

l8rs.

 

[PathOne]

True. Some offshore grads currently can't get approval in Cali, NM, Tex. and Kansas. But if you look at the respective websites of the licensing board, the list of foreign schools that ARE considered equivalent is AWFULLY long. So yes, the vast majority of FMG's CAN get licensed everywhere, and only some offshore/shady/very recently estab. school grads will have problems.

Also agree on the "ranking" discussion. PD's have two rankings: The specifics of the applicant (80-90%), and his/her own experience with certain schools (10-20%). Med school applicants seem to have ONE ranking in mind: US News (100%).

On a final note, I personally have a really hard time understanding why people would choose a non-US school over a DO school, if they intend to train and practise in the US.

Since both are physicians, I'd have to think that people who just can't live with a DO-title would seem to have a problem with their self-esteem/self-confidence. It's especially strange, that most of these persons would find it MORE prestigious to go to a more-or-less tested offshore school with or without MCAT requirements on some poor Caribbean island, than to attend a accredited US DO-school.

 

[Chisel]

I am not saying that a DO is a worse physician or that an offshore MD is better. But I will state that there is a stigma attached to DOs in many allopathic residency and fellowship programs.

To those who disagree with me...I am speaking from experience. Offshore MDs are often chosen over DOs for competitive residency spots. This is a fact. This is true for surgery and surgical subspecialties in particular.

This is less of a factor in primary care specialties, but if you plan on doing a competitive medical subspecialty like cardiology or gastroenterology, then it becomes important again.

Sure, there are DOs and offshore MDs in all specialties, but the advantage is afforded the offshore MD...like it or not.

Where are the stats to back-up your ridiculous claims. "Speaking from experience" - what experiences do you have? One or two examples. Even if you have five examples, I wouldn't call that "experience."

Why is it that some MS (whether MD or DO) always become involved in the MD is better than DO thing or that a constant defense of the DO degree is needed.

I will put my degree against any other MS degree when I finish.

A Dr. is a Dr. We all learn the same info. Last time I checked Biochem at an Allopathic school is the same as Biochem at a DO school or at an off shore school.

We're all going to be colleagues someday. Will those who type about the inferiority of the DO degree on SDN be so confrontational when they deal with a colleague who has DO after his/her name?

Chisel
PCOM MSIII

 

[Chisel]

Did you ever consider that some people just don't want to do OMM? I will tell you that I am intrigued my many aspects of osteopathic manipulative medicine but I have my reservations. Specifically, I feel that some of the craniosacral manipulations are questionable. :

- Isn't it true that throughout medicine we have been teaching treatments that may have little to no clinical data supporting or refuting it. Or when treatments are studied and we find out months or years down the road that newer studies reveal new evidence.

A study of the history of osteopathy reveals that Still was largely a revolutionist against the common "allopathic" medicine of the time which was unfounded, unproven, and ineffective (e.g., bloodletting). And yet, some of the craniosacral manipulations, which strike me as unfounded, unproven, and ineffective are a major part of the osteopathic education.:

- To say that it is a "major part of the osteopathic education" is absolutley ridiculous. At least from the halls at PCOM, Craniosacral is not "major" by anyones standards. It is often taught to those interested in it on occassions outside of the normal class day.

I understand that there is much research going into OMM, but this strikes me as strange thinking. Osteopathic researchers are trying to evaluate whether the treatment works while these unproven treatments are taught in the osteopathic curriculum. In my opinion, the craniosacral manipulations should be proven effective first if they are to be included in the curriculum.:

- Aren't there studies taking place today to evaluate many of the treatments we use today in medicine and that are taught in school. To take COX-2 inhibitors as an example, if further studies were not performed on the drugs we believed to be safe and effective, we would have never known about their adverse cardiac findings.

Until that happens, I feel the manipulations should not be taught. :

- I am going to leave those decisions to the faculty,administrators, and those with experience in OMM.

In contrast, many of the lower back modalities have been proven, and I'm cool with that. If you take a look at the Osteopathic Forum, you will see that many DO students who love OMM do NOT believe in some of the craniosacral manipulations they are taught. The amount of time spent in the manual medicine component of osteopathic medical school curricula is significant.:

- True. But it does not lessen any time spent on any other studies. Anyway, it is necessary to learn manipulation as it was part of the philosophy which Osteopathy was found.



Just my opinion.

My advice - If you feel that you want OMM to be part of your future in medicine and you believe in the tenets of Osteopathy then by all means research it and apply to DO schools.

And, conversely, if you do not believe in any of the above go to Allopathic school. Don't let others change your mind either way.

Chisel
PCOM MSIII

 

[PathOne]

Some observations:

1. NO ONE has PROVEN that DO's are inferior to MD's. If anyone had, med mal lawyers would have a field day, and it would be instantly apparent in insurance premiums.

2. For many, if not all, DO is a backup to MD, as average entry stats ARE lower. Hence the "lower status".

3. The above can also help explain why DO's are having a harder time matching into competitive allo residencies.

4. From casual observation, it does seem to me that basic and clinical research publications aren't as frequent at DO-schools, even if adjusted for the much higher number of MD-schools.

5. ...But that's even more apparent among offshore schools, which are certainly not generally known for their huge contributions to medical research.

In conclusion, I can understand why most applicants try to go to MD-schools, but I still can't understand why anyone will voluntarily choose to go to some third world Caribbean island to attend a for-profit "MD-factory" over a DO-school, simply for two letters. All other things being equal, the only reason I can think of to go to a med school in a different country would be if you wanted to practise in that country, or if you could receive a better training in that foreign country. And none of those statements can by any stretch of the imagination be applied to offshore schools.

 

[DrFeelgoodDO]

In the end, the MD after your name will keep more doors open for you. So, strive for that above else.

 

[DrFeelgoodDO]

I am not saying that a DO is a worse physician or that an offshore MD is better. But I will state that there is a stigma attached to DOs in many allopathic residency and fellowship programs.

To those who disagree with me...I am speaking from experience. Offshore MDs are often chosen over DOs for competitive residency spots. This is a fact. This is true for surgery and surgical subspecialties in particular.

This is less of a factor in primary care specialties, but if you plan on doing a competitive medical subspecialty like cardiology or gastroenterology, then it becomes important again.

Sure, there are DOs and offshore MDs in all specialties, but the advantage is afforded the offshore MD...like it or not.

 

[group_theory]

It is true that the stereotype of "DOs being US-allo reject" is out there.

But then again, what is the stereotype of "MD from SGU/Ross"?


An MD doesn't automatically make it better than DO. Curriculum is almost the same (OMM exception of course). Rotation are in the US. In the end, the AOA accredited school grants the "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" and the Carribean school grants the "Doctor of Medicine" degree.

Is there a secret course that is only taught in MD schools? A course that makes its MD students better than DO students, so much so that PDs will rank FMG MDs higher than DOs?