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Do We Need Another Pod School???

Discussion in 'Podiatry Students' started by jonwill, Mar 24, 2007.

  1. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
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    Western in Cali has announced that they will be opening a podiatric medical program starting in 2009. (http://wsprod.westernu.edu/wu/newsreleases/nr_detail.jsp?id=3160) Keep in mind that if each existing school takes up to their enrollment cap set by the CPME, the number of students graduating would FAR EXCEED the number of residency slots available. Years ago, this would not have been a problem as residency was not required to practice. Fast forward 20 years and podiatry has become a surgical sub-specialty in which a residency is required and completely vital to one's success. By law, you can not practice without one. Do we need another program pumping out students?

    I do not believe that another podiatry school is needed. However, as the Western program will be affiliated with the DO program, I would take Western any day over a free standing school with no MD/DO affiliation.

    Opinions?
     
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  3. OSUDDS

    OSUDDS Senior Member
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    buuuurn
     
  4. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    I 100% agree with your assessment. I do not know if Western and CCPM will be able to exist in such close proximity. I think that one of the programs will kill the other. Whether it is CCPM blocking the final accreditation of Western (which will be very unfortunate for the students in the program at the time), or Western killing any interest in CCPM.

    I personally would like to see a merger but that would mean two deans become one. I don't know a lot of deans that are willing and looking to give up the position. I think that Western will be great b/c it uses the DMU integration model and it would be ashame to lose about 100 of history if CCPM would close.

    I don't have the answer but if the CPME allows podiatry to go back to the "dark ages." You can beat that they will lose my respect and support, as will APMA and the council of deans.
     
  5. Dr. Gangrene

    Dr. Gangrene AZPOD 2011
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    You guys are done w/ school or almost there. What is your assesment of the field. Is there a NEED for another school? It would be a shame if some very qualified students did not get a residency because there were just too many qualified students.

    I would think that a new school would only be allowed if it was needed. Do the cpme and apma think the same way?
     
  6. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    I hope. But too many leaders in podiatry are driven by money not what is best for the profession. That is why some schools take students that have low entrance stats and end up never passing boards.

    More schools means more yearly fees. I just don't want podiatry to turn into OD or DC. A DPM on ever corner and two working in the local WalMart
     
  7. cool_vkb

    cool_vkb Member
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    Hey but i have a question! for DCs and ODs they dont need any kind of Board certifications and Residencies. So may be all DCs can practice.

    But even if 10000 pods are graduating every year (bcoz of low entrance requirements of Pod schools). I doubt all of them would ever practice because as you guys said the Board exams are really hard and nearly all states require some kind of residency and they cant even get board certification.

    So i think, if a huge number of unwanted candidates are accepted. may be we will have a huge number of DPMs. but the number of board certified & surgical DPMs will still be low. It will be like, we will have two classes of Pods then. The ones who were not smart enough working at shoe stores or walmart. And the ones who really were brilliant working alongside orthopods.

    The case with DCs is different, bcoz every single DC who graduates from school is eligible to practice. tats why they all end up practicing. but because of extra requirements in Podiatry. I doubt and pray sincerely that we should never see a day of working in walmart and malls:)
     
  8. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
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    Well, the fact of the matter is that with 8 schools accepting the max number of students, there are already more students than residency programs. So adding another school to the mix is just increasing the number of students that will not get residency training and therefore, will not be able to practice.

    I do not think that there is a need for another school. What I do think there is a need for is schools that are affiliated with a mainstream medical school (trademarked by Feelgood as the "DMU model").

    I also do not think that the CPME will be able to justify opening another school. Something has to give. Allowing students to go into six figure debt and then receive no residency training would be completely irresponsible and I would have to assume the CPME will see the same thing.
     
  9. krabmas

    krabmas Senior Member
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    THe problem with having so many pods that are not up to snuff is that they become disgruntled with the profession like what happened several years ago when there were not enough residencies to go around. That is why there are pods posting on Forum 54. People expect that if it is easy to get into it must be an easy road all the way thru.

    I hope that if another school opens at least one of the other schools closes. It does not have to be Cali either. I agree with Jonwill (I think it was him) that the un-afilliated schools should merge or subsist.
     
  10. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    Also, with demand comes new board certification organizations. Using your 10K graduation number if only 1K gets a residency and board certified. That means you have 9K in limbo. That means they outnumber the more qualified group 1 to 9. That equals out to more money and more power. The same reason some of these national organizations are looking to add more schools anyways.
     
  11. OSUDDS

    OSUDDS Senior Member
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    ODs take boards
     
  12. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
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    The problem is not with boards. The problem is that one cannot be a licensed podiatric physician without residency.
     
  13. OSUDDS

    OSUDDS Senior Member
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    i was responding to this statement

    ODs do take boards.
     
  14. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    If the CPME/COTH/Council of Deans/APMA are dumb enough to recklessly expand, then they will be dumb enough to accommodate. Ignorance knows not bounds.
     
  15. Dr. Gangrene

    Dr. Gangrene AZPOD 2011
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    So what happens with those that don't get a residency? Do they "try again next year" or what.
    Does this currently happen? I was under the impression that at this time, there are enough residencies to go around.
     
  16. gustydoc

    gustydoc Senior Member
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    This year there was a little over a hundred extra residency spots so no-one is going with out a residency right now. Through the class of 2010 there will be enough spots for students, but if class sizes keep increasing the way they have been the number of students could hypothetically exceed the number of residency positions.
     
  17. oncogene

    oncogene Senior Member
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    So how many PM&S-36 and PM&S-24 programs in the country?Have any of the powers that be comment on thus issue? I don't think podiatry would ever recover from a mistake like that again because it just happened a short time ago.
     
  18. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
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    I don't know exact numbers as some programs are still transitioning to the new models. When I asked the same question to a member of the CPME last year, he stated that there would be roughly 380 PM&S-36 slots and 160 PM&S-24 slots.
     
  19. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    This is not hypothetical. It is an absolute. If the trend does not change and they fully accredit AZPod which would allow them to take a larger class (I have heard they are hoping to be the size of DMU ~60) and they allow Western to open a school (it looks like they are shooting for about 45-60 students in there class also [http://www.westernu.edu/bin/cape/10%20yr%20strategic%20plan.ppt#267,27,Western University Enrollment In Schools & Colleges ]). That is an addition of about 75-100 students. If the class of 2007 was a small class and only had 100 extra spots. That guarantees a shortage of residencies.

    Either a a) school must close, b) schools will have to lower there class sizes, or c) they will have to make more residencies. If the last option is the one that is chosen, they will probably rush into it and have to lower the standards. I cannot see them adding 50 quality spots in 5 years. It cannot be done.

    Besides residencies where are the new applicants going to come from? Many schools are already scrapping the bottom of the barrel to fill the class; we are going to see schools digging in the trash. The entrance stats have been slowing improving for podiatry and this will pull the rug on that trend.
     
  20. calcaneus

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    Are those numbers for total students (e.g. for PM&S-36 slots, is that 380 first year slots?) or 127 first year, 127 second year and 126 third year?
     
  21. doclm

    doclm Senior Member
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    Isn't the PM&S-36 and PM&S-24 a difference in being board certified vs. board qualified, respectively?

    Wouldn't it be hard for a PM&S-24 grad to land a similar position as a PM&S-36 grad?
     
  22. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
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    Those who do not do a PM&S-36 cannot sit for the rearfoot/reconstructive boards. PM&S-24 grads can only be board certified in forefoot surgery.
     
  23. KHep

    KHep Senior Member
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    Speaking of the OD thing...there are plenty of ODs that choose to do a residency eventhough one is not required. Let's remember that we are a professional forum and we want to act like it....therefore, let's not alienate anyone. All the professions need to work together, not look for weaknesses for comparison purposes.

    Hopefully the CPME will take into consideration the increase in # of students (let's not forget the 20% first year attrition rate) and expand the number of residency slots accordingly. Being aware is great, but we also need to have faith in those that are currently leading the field.

    Out of curiosity, how many DC schools are there? I know OD has 13.
     
  24. krabmas

    krabmas Senior Member
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    NYCPM admitted about 90 students in 2007 and 68 or 9 of us are graduating. I think OCPM graduates even less percentage wise than they accept compared to NYCPM. So even though nationwide the class size is large when admitted the graduation rate is less. We lost at least 3 people in the 4th year so attrition continues up til graduation.

    I still agree that a new school should mean a merge or closure of another school.
     
  25. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    I'm not insulting ODs or DCs but I think that they would be the first to agree that if there were less in the profession, they would all make more money.

    I don't care about boards or residencies, I care about oversaturating the market.
     
  26. cool_vkb

    cool_vkb Member
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    The last i heard, DC schools are somewhere in that range only. But i heard from DC students also and also on forums that in DC school its your personal responsibility to see the required number of cases. if you dont then you will not graduate. So i heard, poor guys have to call home by home asking if someone needs any disk sublaxation and other procedures they perform. tats really scary, students themselves seeking out patients in desperation:( :laugh: Ofcourse this is just happening in lower-tier 1 or 2 collges.:laugh:
     
  27. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    According to the Association of Chiropractic Colleges there are 16 within the US and 3 outside of the US. (They list a Candian School on the US side of the list.)(http://www.chirocolleges.org/collegest.html)

    Here is a good article that describes how graudation rates and decreasing payments are leading to an increase in loan default rates. (http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/loan.html) Increasing the number of graduates can lead to this same outcome for podaitry.
     
  28. KHep

    KHep Senior Member
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    I understand that, but as the baby boomers get older, don't you think that there will be more people seeking their services?

    I went to high school with a guy who became a DC and he is definitely not hurting...his salary is higher than the mean pod salary. And I only know two ODs well. Neither are in private practice. One does research in the field, the other works for the VA. The thing is though, the friend that works for the VA also works a couple of Saturdays per month at private practices and she continues to receive calls to see if she would be interested in other like jobs. Which makes it seem as if saturation is not that big of an issue. Also, no one in their graduating class went jobless.

    I have two friends currently in DC school. One of whom went there with a job offer upon graduation.

    The crazy thing is that I live in an area that I would think would have high saturation, but the people that I know seem to be just fine.

    So, I believe that I read that there is one podiatrist for every 200,000 in the US. So, a big part of opening a school would be how do we get people to practice in areas that seem to have a shortage of pods? And the other question would be how does the CPME go about setting up more quality residencies...and in areas that may have a shortage, so that residents might settle there.

    It seems like the West could use another school, since right now there are only two. If one had to shut down, which do you think would go?
     
  29. densmore22

    densmore22 Member
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    Do We Need Another Pod School???


    No, we don't.
     
  30. dpmrunner

    dpmrunner Junior Member
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    Agreed

    I think the better statement should be...

    Do we need another pod school
    no we don't

    Do we need better and more unified existing pod schools
    yes we do
     
  31. Feli

    Feli ACFAS Member
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    I'd actually be curious about this myself... I guess I never thought about.
    What does happen to people who don't get a residency or get fired from their residency?
    Are they just done training and have to make due from there on out?

    I don't think you could just "try again next year" because if you could, some DPMs who graduated years ago and didn't get a residency and would be interviewing for them right now in order to get surgical training.
     
  32. KHep

    KHep Senior Member
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    But, those docs would have to leave behind a hell of a salary to go back to residency, so depending on their lifestyle, it might not work (spouse and kids).
     
  33. krabmas

    krabmas Senior Member
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    almost every year there are a few residents that change programs or go back and do a residency. They either give up their job or close the practice to go back to residency. They do this just like an investment - you have to spend money to make money. They can put their loans on deferred while in residency and live very frugally. when they get out they have more surgical skills and can advance their practice or apply for other jobs that were previously closed to them.
     
  34. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
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    By law, pods that now graduate must do a residency in order to get a license.
     
  35. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    That depends on the state. But for sure, it would be a huge risk b/c most states require a pod to do a residency. Also, you would never do anything but cut nails and shave calluses.
     
  36. krabmas

    krabmas Senior Member
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    hawaii is the only state that requires only one year of residency. all the others require more than that. I know of no state left that does not require a residency in order to practice.
     
  37. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    I'm just going of of this website which makes it seem otherwise.

    http://www.fpmb.org/compendium.asp
     
  38. Feli

    Feli ACFAS Member
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    This basically sums up my opinion. I think the current number of pod schools seems to work fine.
    In order to open a new one, an existing one needs to close to avoid problems.

    __________________

    I still think that a pod school in Texas (UT) would be great; they have a solid residency already and the university has the capable faculty, funding, and facilities to make a dynamite program. It sounds like many current Texas DPMs are doing great business and probably wouldn't appreciate it very much if a school nearby began pumping out podiatrists, though... certainly can't blame them when you hear about the relative DPM saturation in NYC or north Cali.
     
  39. prettygreeneyes

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    In an attempt to avoid studying (1st year optometry student), I was browsing the forums and came across this thread. I see that Western in CA is creating a podiatry school? Judging from the response on this thread, it seems to be about as welcome as the optometry school they are planning on opening up the same year. As someone mentioned before, ODs are already faced with the problem of oversupply, (look at the success of the Walmart Vision Center for proof) and we need another school like we need a hole in the head. There are already 16 schools of optometry in the country, and besides Western, two more are being considered, also connected with DO schools. I agree with another poster than the affliation with a DO school might be beneficial, but the benefit does not outweigh the cost of that many more graduates in the field every year.

    Anyway, I enjoyed reading through everyone's posts. While I don't wish the plague of oversupply on anyone, it is comforting to know that every profession has its challenges, not just optometry!
     
  40. gsrimport

    gsrimport Senior Member
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    So would the Western DPM school be a totally new school or is the samuel merritt school thinking about merging with Western? I know years ago, there was rumors of CSPM merging with Touro in Norcal but that didn't happen.
     
  41. Dr_Feelgood

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    If they don't merge, I believe it will be hard to survive. So in this hypothetic situation, people can write into CPME and object to the school receiving full accreditation. If anyone has followed the hoops that AZPod has gone through, there are lots of places to voice ones opinion (whether they listen or not is another issue, but if the students got organized it would be tough to ignore.) That may mean you hurt some pod students b/c they would have to find another school even after starting at Western. That is the risk they run by going to a candidate accredited program, and even the students at AZPod run (though I would not be worried).
     
  42. oncogene

    oncogene Senior Member
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    The thing is we don't need a new school at this point but, I would rather have this school be rather than the cali school how it is now. I don't mean any disrespect to cali students at all. I just feel that the fully integrated school is the direction podiatry needs to be moving.
     
  43. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    I think that most people feel this way. I hope that our CSPM students are not offended (especially since I have not seen many post). I would be eager to hear your thoughts.
     
  44. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
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    CSPM did infact merge with the DO program in North Cal. They stayed there for one year and then bailed to Samuel Merritt because they felt they were not being treated fairly. I believe it was the 2001-2002 school year but I'm not sure.
     
  45. oncogene

    oncogene Senior Member
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    What does that mean not being treated fairly? Anyone know what the beef was?
     
  46. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
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    It was your first year (01-02) b/c when I was sent recruitment info it was from Toro University not Samuel Merrit.
     
  47. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
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    When I interviewed there, I actually asked about it. When CSPM sold their property in SF, they made some serious cash. Their theory was that the school took them for the $$$. They told me that Touro wouldn't let them have any say concerning academics or classes. They also wouldn't let any of them on the board. I can't remember everything they told me but those were some of the issues.

    But there are two sides to every story. I'd be interested to hear Touro's version.
     
  48. m326841

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    I think (after all I've heard, read and personally experienced) the free standing podiatry schools should become extinct.

    I was enchanted by one and I very openly regret it.
     
  49. SAFOOT

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    The only time we need a podiatry school is when there is actually some competition to getting into a school right now there is seriously nill. Today all you have to do is literally is blindly take the mcat, gre, dat or whatever and get a 3.0 gpa and your pretty much in at every school. Opening up another school is just going to hurt this cause even more, accepting underqualified applicants and results of lower pass rates etc, results in poor dpms in the field which will ultimately reduce the profesionalism of he field.
     
  50. AlleghenyPOD

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    True. Valid point, but as we speak there are about 5 podiatrists to every 100,000 people in the United States. The country is in need of podiatrists; and with the baby boomers expecting to age and the current diabetic problem in the U.S; there is a steady demand of podiatric medical care.

    Its sad really to see so many qualified pre-med students in my college that wouldnt consider podiatry because as they put it, 'we dont want to deal with feet.' In my college, we have a pretty large pre-health/pre-med standing (about 120 of us graduating next spring) yet theres only about 6 pre-podiatry students (including myself). An incredible majority of the pre-me (osteo/allo) are applying only to medical school proper and plan on taking a post bac or finishing an MPH/masters program if they dont get accepted immediately. A several few are considering veterinary medicine and about 15-20 are part of the pre-dental society here. I mean even the pre-chiropractics are more numerous than us, as they number about ~10. lol.

    My point is. We need podiatric physicians. It would be great of podiatry schools advertised better; or if undergraduate private liberal arts colleges, like the one i go to start talking about podiatry, optometry, chiropractics, physical therapy, physicians' assistant, instead of the typical MD/DO standard.

    Sorry..i ended up ranting.

    Best,
     
  51. healthboy

    healthboy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2004
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    DCs NEED to pass boards before they even start to practice.
     

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