Do you all believe the job market will ever correct itself?

[TianjinNVhai]

If so , how long will it take?

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[Dred Pirate]

won't correct, maybe reset at a new-norm and stabilize back to equivalent of 70's wages. I can't remember specifics- but if you account of inflation- they made the equivalent of ~60-70k in today's money -then we had the shortage and wages skyrocket - not because we were "worth it" but because of supply and demand- eventually we will settle back and reset as a new norm

 

[TianjinNVhai]

But that was back when a bachlor is all it takes to become a pharmacist right?

 

[gwarm01]

Higher educational requirement doesn't necessarily translate to higher wages. I think the market will correct back to traditional wages. The boom of the 2000's was an anomaly and we're just riding it out.

 

[awval999]

Pharmacist Wages in 1990 = $44,664 (average of male / female base pay).

Pharmacists' compensation and work patterns, 1990-91 - PubMed

Several major trends were observed in these findings from the 1990-91 National Pharmacists' Compensation Survey (for details see the final report). Only 72.6% of licensed pharmacists were working full-time in pharmacy; another 14.4% were working part-time in pharmacy, and nearly 13.0% were...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Into 2019 dollars = $87,742.04.

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value From 1913-2024

Easily calculate how the buying power of the U.S. dollar has changed from 1913 to 2024. Get inflation rates and U.S. inflation news.

www.usinflationcalculator.com

And I think this is what we will see going forward in inflation adjusted rates over the next 10-20 years, $80k-$100k.

A lot of pharmacists may be in their last job. Because it won't pay to ever leave. Wages are sticky. There's a reason why legacy workers at GM/Ford are making $35/hour and new workers make $15/hour. Now those legacy workers haven't gotten a raise in 10 years. But it takes a long time to erode overtly high compensation by inflation. In my opinion, the safest pharmacists are health system pharmacists. Health systems typically are ran with a union mentality. They are mostly non-profit so there's less of an incentive to start kicking out legacy workers. In addition, pharmacists are a rounding error compared with other costs of the health system, whereas the salaries of a pharmacist are obvious in a drug store.

 

[mentos]

This question is so funny. The market IS correcting itself right now. A correction means an equilibrium between supply and demand. For years there has been an oversupply of pharmacists getting overpaid. Now the market is finally bringing wages down to market value. New grad starting salaries are what pharmacists should have been paid for the past 5-8 years.

When there are too many houses and people stop buying, what happens? The market corrects itself and prices come down. Same thing with pharmacists right now.

Before the pharmD came, pharmacists were getting near $15/hr. All these millennials and gen Xers think they all deserve 6 figures.

This is like asking if the job market for secretaries or travel agents will correct itself.

 

[deleted898085]

The market IS correcting itself right now. A correction means an equilibrium between supply and demand.

Not yet! Supply IS more than demand right now. Wage is still high.

 

[deleted898085]

If so , how long will it take?

I wonder the same. How long will it take to get equilibrium?

 

[mentos]

Not yet! Supply IS more than demand right now. Wage is still high.

Agreed that's why I said the market is correcting itself now. It is not done, wages will still go down.

 

[TerryTerry]

Everything gets corrected over time, but not always the way we want or expect

 

[PharmtoCS]

The market can remain irrational far longer than you can stay solvent.

It won’t get much better until the government stops handing out $200k+ in loans for students to obtain a devalued PharmD.

 

[Dred Pirate]

But that was back when a bachlor is all it takes to become a pharmacist right?

wages don't relate to degrees - just ask OT and PT (many are "doctors") about their salaries.

Plus to go from a 5 year degree and make it a 6 year degree and make the jump from bachelor to doctorate is a little extreme - really more of a masters

 

[Dred Pirate]

Pharmacist Wages in 1990 = $44,664 (average of male / female base pay).

Pharmacists' compensation and work patterns, 1990-91 - PubMed

Several major trends were observed in these findings from the 1990-91 National Pharmacists' Compensation Survey (for details see the final report). Only 72.6% of licensed pharmacists were working full-time in pharmacy; another 14.4% were working part-time in pharmacy, and nearly 13.0% were...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Into 2019 dollars = $87,742.04.

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value From 1913-2024

Easily calculate how the buying power of the U.S. dollar has changed from 1913 to 2024. Get inflation rates and U.S. inflation news.

www.usinflationcalculator.com

And I think this is what we will see going forward in inflation adjusted rates over the next 10-20 years, $80k-$100k.

A lot of pharmacists may be in their last job. Because it won't pay to ever leave. Wages are sticky. There's a reason why legacy workers at GM/Ford are making $35/hour and new workers make $15/hour. Now those legacy workers haven't gotten a raise in 10 years. But it takes a long time to erode overtly high compensation by inflation. In my opinion, the safest pharmacists are health system pharmacists. Health systems typically are ran with a union mentality. They are mostly non-profit so there's less of an incentive to start kicking out legacy workers. In addition, pharmacists are a rounding error compared with other costs of the health system, whereas the salaries of a pharmacist are obvious in a drug store.

this is where I was going with my statement.
Although there is an incentive for early retirment for those that make the upper range of salaries - I could see many health systems actively trying to get rph's (and RN's and others who are at the higher end of the pay scale) incentivizing early retirement.

 

[awval999]

Before the pharmD came, pharmacists were getting near $15/hr. All these millennials and gen Xers think they all deserve 6 figures.

I just posted a journal article that proved your statement wrong.
Pharmacists haven't been making $15/hr since probably 1980??
In 1990 they were making $21/hr in 1990 money.

Look the market sucks. It's over-saturated. And the vast, vast majority of pharmacists aren't worth the six figures.

But the historical inflation adjusted amount of our salaries is approx $85k or so. That's what a physical therapist makes. And that's our worst case scenario of salary.

 

[VA77]

How many students are going to pay 6 digit prices for a 5 digit job? Thats the real question.

 

[Rybko90]

Honestly, it depends so much on what happens with automation.

The retail landscape has changed so much since I got into it in 2012. Anyone noticed how much easier it's gotten to verify e-scribed scripts? Hell, most of them come automatically typed in these days. It's very rare for me to find any flat-out mistakes. Am I correct in guessing that prescription software that is utilized by standard prescribers gives you a suggestion for the standard the dosage and directions just like it does when entering hospital orders into an EHR? Then again, I'm ignoring all the ridiculous (but intended) dosages and inappropriate treatments that I don't have time to call on and have no power to argue with the physician other than to refuse to fill the script.

Anyway, if Amazon finds a way to make this work, and make delivered prescriptions the standard rather than the exception, then we're all ****ed. $60-70k per year range.

Before the pharmD came, pharmacists were getting near $15/hr. All these millennials and gen Xers think they all deserve 6 figures.

This is like asking if the job market for secretaries or travel agents will correct itself.

I'm no pharmacy bull but that's an exaggeration and not a fair comparison. The PharmD degree can still be very useful in the marketplace if you truly know your medical **** and weren't just planning to count by 5s for 40 years. There are opportunities in industry if you are smart and know how to sell yourself.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I just posted a journal article that proved your statement wrong.
Pharmacists haven't been making $15/hr since probably 1980??
In 1990 they were making $21/hr in 1990 money.

Look the market sucks. It's over-saturated. And the vast, vast majority of pharmacists aren't worth the six figures.

But the historical inflation adjusted amount of our salaries is approx $85k or so. That's what a physical therapist makes. And that's our worst case scenario of salary.

I wouldn't say that is worst case scenerior - I don't think the floor will be set by what a comparable profession makes, it will be set my supply and demand

 

[mentos]

I just posted a journal article that proved your statement wrong.
Pharmacists haven't been making $15/hr since probably 1980??
In 1990 they were making $21/hr in 1990 money.

Look the market sucks. It's over-saturated. And the vast, vast majority of pharmacists aren't worth the six figures.

But the historical inflation adjusted amount of our salaries is approx $85k or so. That's what a physical therapist makes. And that's our worst case scenario of salary.

85k is not worst case scenario, that's practically current market value. Walmart already has a goal of $30/hr for pharmacists.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

The PharmD degree can still be very useful in the marketplace if you truly know your medical **** and weren't just planning to count by 5s for 40 years.

95+% of pre-pharms go into pharmacy school wanting to be a “clinical pharmacist” and don’t expect to be dispensing/counting by 5s for 40 years. 5% of those pre-pharms actually live that reality down the road.

There are opportunities in industry if you are smart and know how to sell yourself.

Given that admissions standards have dropped exponentially in the last few years, 90% of new grad pharmacists would automatically be disqualified based on that criteria.

 

[gwarm01]

95+% of pre-pharms go into pharmacy school wanting to be a “clinical pharmacist” and don’t expect to be dispensing/counting by 5s for 40 years. 5% of those pre-pharms actually live that reality down the road.

I wonder how long the average pharmacist stays in the profession? I'm less than 10 years from graduating and I'm seeing classmates of mine move on to other things. Several are getting into real estate, more than I would like to admit are buying into MLM scams, and some are just putting up the coat for good.

 

[Sine Cura]

Who wouldn't want to Slomo the **** out of pharmacy? LOL @ getting into some other B.S. hustle

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I wonder how long the average pharmacist stays in the profession? I'm less than 10 years from graduating and I'm seeing classmates of mine move on to other things. Several are getting into real estate, more than I would like to admit are buying into MLM scams, and some are just putting up the coat for good.

Not sure but I don’t think I’ll last 10 years either...

 

[owlbright]

enerior - I don't think the floor will be set by what a co

85k is not worst case scenario, that's practically current market value. Walmart already has a goal of $30/hr for pharmacists.

30$/hr for walmart pharmacist? Ramen noodles won't save new grads with 6 figure of tuition loan hovering over their shoulder.

 

[Pharmd_rxrx]

Lol someone said 85k is the worst it will get. It is already worse than 85k. I can promise you new grads in Texas (and i know a bunch) are making about 70k. I was also told by a higher up that cuts are being made all over retail so hours will be few and with so many new grads, salary will continue to go down. 60k will be a new norm. Mark this reply and holler at me in 3 years

Walgreens in Tx is already at 48/hour with 64 hours guaranteed. And im sure new offers will be even lower. Get o u t.

 

[Pharmd_rxrx]

30$/hr for walmart pharmacist? Ramen noodles won't save new grads with 6 figure of tuition loan hovering over their shoulder.

A friend told me 34/hour is what is being offered now. Tx.

 

[Prior_Auth_Denied]

I wonder how long the average pharmacist stays in the profession? I'm less than 10 years from graduating and I'm seeing classmates of mine move on to other things. Several are getting into real estate, more than I would like to admit are buying into MLM scams, and some are just putting up the coat for good.

MLM scams?

 

[gwarm01]

MLM scams?

All of those people in your life who say they are starting their own business selling essential oils, dietary supplements, herbal teas, etc. are just being suckered into what is basically a pyramid scheme.

r/antiMLM - read and enjoy

 

[mentos]

MLM scams?

 

[Mambo#5]

Lol someone said 85k is the worst it will get. It is already worse than 85k. I can promise you new grads in Texas (and i know a bunch) are making about 70k. I was also told by a higher up that cuts are being made all over retail so hours will be few and with so many new grads, salary will continue to go down. 60k will be a new norm. Mark this reply and holler at me in 3 years

Walgreens in Tx is already at 48/hour with 64 hours guaranteed. And im sure new offers will be even lower. Get o u t.

Humana offered someone I know $48/hr. It was more like a take it or leave it than an offer. They had to check yes or no that they would take it lol. They checked no n stuck with a $53/hr short term job with 0 benefits.

 

[pharmBear]

Yup watched that whole video. The roden mlm is pretty bad, it spams my facebook!

 

[Mambo#5]

Honestly, it depends so much on what happens with automation.

The retail landscape has changed so much since I got into it in 2012. Anyone noticed how much easier it's gotten to verify e-scribed scripts? Hell, most of them come automatically typed in these days. It's very rare for me to find any flat-out mistakes. Am I correct in guessing that prescription software that is utilized by standard prescribers gives you a suggestion for the standard the dosage and directions just like it does when entering hospital orders into an EHR? Then again, I'm ignoring all the ridiculous (but intended) dosages and inappropriate treatments that I don't have time to call on and have no power to argue with the physician other than to refuse to fill the script.

Anyway, if Amazon finds a way to make this work, and make delivered prescriptions the standard rather than the exception, then we're all ****ed. $60-70k per year range.


I'm no pharmacy bull but that's an exaggeration and not a fair comparison. The PharmD degree can still be very useful in the marketplace if you truly know your medical **** and weren't just planning to count by 5s for 40 years. There are opportunities in industry if you are smart and know how to sell yourself.

Computers are much more efficient today. In the future most of that will be done with computers and artificial intelligence. You will need fewer and fewer pharmacists. I’ve been told this and didn’t believe it. But I’ve seen it first hand through work, where superiors pointed out a task and said in the past this was done by 6 pharmacists and now it’s done by one. Also verifications of electronic scripts can really be done with computers.

 

[mentos]

Yup watched that whole video. The roden mlm is pretty bad, it spams my facebook!

Rodan is the worst on my news feed. I don't understand why professionals making 6 figures need to do MLM, can't they just pick up extra shifts? There was a lawsuit against them for lash boost side effects LoL.

Rodan + Fields faces another lawsuit over eyelash enhancer as P&G battle looms

Cases allege company behind Lash Boost did not disclose harmful side effects of a key ingredient and made false claims

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Prior_Auth_Denied]

A friend told me 34/hour is what is being offered now. Tx.

Which company, walmart?

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Wow, if true pharmacists going to be just like techs pretty soon. some of the hospital techs I know make over 30 per hour, especially in sterile mixing.

honestly alot of people feel safe in clinical pharmacy, but alot of those areas will eventually be hit by AI as well. most of retail is already at the breaking point in terms of staffing. you can't have less than 1 pharmacist on duty unless dramatic state board rule changes are made.
hospital, on the other hand, is the area that is usually has far more pharmacists on staff. improved ai and eprescriber software will reduce the number of staff and clinical rph staff needed. alot of clinical rphs I know have realized the changes on the horizon and have moved into admin and manager roles.

Yep. Automation and robots will destroy retail. AI will destroy “clinical” pharmacy. Why pay someone to look things up on Lexicomp when you can train a computer to recognize dangerous doses or drug interactions based on some simple inputs?

 

[SoylentGreen]

If these numbers are true we are at the point where you'd be better off to work at Taco Bell than become a pharmacist when you factor in student loans. Unless Bernie or Elizabeth Warren forgives everybody's student loans, which is a real possibility. But I wouldn't want to make that bet.

 

[Pharmd_rxrx]

Which company, walmart?

Yeap. Was also told of a 65k walmart offer. Tx. Hours were what they considered full time but even with 40 hours (which youre not getting) would have been in low 80s.

 

[Pharmd_rxrx]

Wow, if true pharmacists going to be just like techs pretty soon. some of the hospital techs I know make over 30 per hour, especially in sterile mixing.

honestly alot of people feel safe in clinical pharmacy, but alot of those areas will eventually be hit by AI as well. most of retail is already at the breaking point in terms of staffing. you can't have less than 1 pharmacist on duty unless dramatic state board rule changes are made.
hospital, on the other hand, is the area that is usually has far more pharmacists on staff. improved ai and eprescriber software will reduce the number of staff and clinical rph staff needed. alot of clinical rphs I know have realized the changes on the horizon and have moved into admin and manager roles.

Yes AI is changing pharmacy quickly. I say by 2030 if not sooner, the retail job wont exist and will be more of a digital job. Check out some of the robots some of these companies have gotten. Imagine a remote pyxis in retail for patient use.

 

[redfish955]

The problem with pharmacy school is that it is basically allowing people to buy their way to prosperity Wich isn't right. It's easier than an accredited engineering program, medical school, pre pharmacy, and dental school.

 

[mentos]

The problem with pharmacy school is that it is basically allowing people to buy their way to prosperity Wich isn't right. It's easier than an accredited engineering program, medical school, pre pharmacy, and dental school.

Not anymore. Now it buys your way into debt.

 

[mentos]

If these numbers are true we are at the point where you'd be better off to work at Taco Bell than become a pharmacist when you factor in student loans. Unless Bernie or Elizabeth Warren forgives everybody's student loans, which is a real possibility. But I wouldn't want to make that bet.

This is true. Taco Bell managers make around 55k per year, no loans needed. They can own a house years before a pharmacist can.

 

[Employed 2017 PharmD]

Honestly, it depends so much on what happens with automation.

The retail landscape has changed so much since I got into it in 2012. Anyone noticed how much easier it's gotten to verify e-scribed scripts? Hell, most of them come automatically typed in these days. It's very rare for me to find any flat-out mistakes. Am I correct in guessing that prescription software that is utilized by standard prescribers gives you a suggestion for the standard the dosage and directions just like it does when entering hospital orders into an EHR? Then again, I'm ignoring all the ridiculous (but intended) dosages and inappropriate treatments that I don't have time to call on and have no power to argue with the physician other than to refuse to fill the script.

Anyway, if Amazon finds a way to make this work, and make delivered prescriptions the standard rather than the exception, then we're all ****ed. $60-70k per year range.


I'm no pharmacy bull but that's an exaggeration and not a fair comparison. The PharmD degree can still be very useful in the marketplace if you truly know your medical **** and weren't just planning to count by 5s for 40 years. There are opportunities in industry if you are smart and know how to sell yourself.

"Selling yourself" is not enough. Based upon my recent experiences over the past 2-3 years, for an industry position, you need specific skills. (& connections). There are many pharmaceutical science majors, with a BS or MS that have more skills, like specific lab equipment skills, research skills (& published work) than a PharmD. They are preferred hires because, I have been told (at several job fairs and during interviews in MD, DC, NJ, NY, & CA) that, the PharmD is a "vocational degree", and an "entry level degree". It is not equivalent to a PhD in Pharmaceutical sciences. I was also advised that no manager with a BS or MS is going to hire a PharmD, who will "leave to make $150k/yr at the first opportunity". More than once I was advised to delete my PharmD from my CV. (Problem is if you Google me, there are pics/awards posted by my Pharmacy School & others that I can not delete.) Also I was unable to get a fellowship at a pharmaceutical company, because I turned down offers to "go out for drinks" or an "adult beverage" with 50+ yo creepers, unlike some of my classmates. (Funny when I started Pharmacy school I was not told it was a "vocational" or "entry level" degree.)

Many people here want to blame the PharmDs who graduated over the past few years for being unable to find F/T jobs instead of acknowledging the FACT that the Boards of Pharmacy, Pharmacy Schools, & Pharmacy Associations with coercion from big retailers have flooded the market with PharmDs, while extending the role of pharmacy techs (some with GEDs & many with on-line certifications but no real qualifications), because there was a feeling that "pill counters" were overpaid.
If there are not enough slots for EVERY PharmD grad to get a PGY1, then too many PharmDs are graduating. (Med schools limit enrollment based on residency slots)

 

[Employed 2017 PharmD]

"Buying into prosperity"? I don't know what you did in pharmacy school, but my coursework was NOT easy, but then again, maybe it was because I actually did ALL of my own work and had NO "help".

 

[mentos]

"Buying into prosperity"? I don't know what you did in pharmacy school, but my coursework was NOT easy, but then again, maybe it was because I actually did ALL of my own work and had NO "help".

No one says it's easy but when 15,000 people get the same doctorate per year, anyone can do it.

 

[Rybko90]

"Selling yourself" is not enough. Based upon my recent experiences over the past 2-3 years, for an industry position, you need specific skills. (& connections). There are many pharmaceutical science majors, with a BS or MS that have more skills, like specific lab equipment skills, research skills (& published work) than a PharmD. They are preferred hires because, I have been told (at several job fairs and during interviews in MD, DC, NJ, NY, & CA) that, the PharmD is a "vocational degree", and an "entry level degree". It is not equivalent to a PhD in Pharmaceutical sciences. I was also advised that no manager with a BS or MS is going to hire a PharmD, who will "leave to make $150k/yr at the first opportunity". More than once I was advised to delete my PharmD from my CV. (Problem is if you Google me, there are pics/awards posted by my Pharmacy School & others that I can not delete.) Also I was unable to get a fellowship at a pharmaceutical company, because I turned down offers to "go out for drinks" or an "adult beverage" with 50+ yo creepers, unlike some of my classmates. (Funny when I started Pharmacy school I was not told it was a "vocational" or "entry level" degree.)

Many people here want to blame the PharmDs who graduated over the past few years for being unable to find F/T jobs instead of acknowledging the FACT that the Boards of Pharmacy, Pharmacy Schools, & Pharmacy Associations with coercion from big retailers have flooded the market with PharmDs, while extending the role of pharmacy techs (some with GEDs & many with on-line certifications but no real qualifications), because there was a feeling that "pill counters" were overpaid.
If there are not enough slots for EVERY PharmD grad to get a PGY1, then too many PharmDs are graduating. (Med schools limit enrollment based on residency slots)

Thanks for the insight, sobering stuff. Specifically what type of positions have you been applying for or looking at?

 

[Thestrugglez]

Yeap. Was also told of a 65k walmart offer. Tx. Hours were what they considered full time but even with 40 hours (which youre not getting) would have been in low 80s.

Which area of Tx is this? I'm in Tx and I know Walmart hired someone at $56/hr (but only PT with benefits). That also seems to be more in line with some of the other major chains in the region ($55-$58/hr).

Walmart also considers 48hr/2weeks to be FT so maybe they got offered 65k based on 24 hour per week?

 

[sozetone]

won't correct, maybe reset at a new-norm and stabilize back to equivalent of 70's wages. I can't remember specifics- but if you account of inflation- they made the equivalent of ~60-70k in today's money -then we had the shortage and wages skyrocket - not because we were "worth it" but because of supply and demand- eventually we will settle back and reset as a new norm

i agree 100% with dred, thats exactly what happened. We cashed in and struck while the iron was hot....demand was high, stores were opening up weekly..there was a pharmacist shortage. Now, stores are closing, cutting back, and pharmacists are over-saturated. deadly combination.

 

[sozetone]

How many students are going to pay 6 digit prices for a 5 digit job? Thats the real question.

apparently MANY bro.... it's inconceivable how narrow minded these pre-pharms are, total tunnel vision and snowflake syndrome. no research or forethought put into their investment of education VS job attainability/sustainability. they are like on auto pilot. They only seem to focus on PCAT scores, acceptance letters....etc.

 

[Sine Cura]

I think a lot of them just think "it'll just work out in the end" when you should actually have a gameplan and contingencies in place.

 

[PharmtoCS]

A lot of them have been rewarded with participation trophies, diplomas, and pharmacy school acceptance letters just by showing up and doing the bare minimum. To them, doing a little more than the bare minimum means going above and beyond. They think that they can apply the same work ethic in a reality that is more like the Hunger Games with 15,000 other students graduating each year.

 

[sozetone]

Which area of Tx is this? I'm in Tx and I know Walmart hired someone at $56/hr (but only PT with benefits). That also seems to be more in line with some of the other major chains in the region ($55-$58/hr).

Walmart also considers 48hr/2weeks to be FT so maybe they got offered 65k based on 24 hour per week?

Yeah and then WM expects to have the highest customer service numbers in the game after cutting 40% of its staff across the board. What Ballz on these guys.... All doug Mcmillan cares about is the stockholders satisfaction and leading into his bonus/stock options.... on top of his salary.... which will probably put him somewhere between 15-20 million give or take a few.