Do you believe in evolution through natural selection?

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Do you believe in evolution through natural selection?

  • Yes, I believe that organisms evolved without the direction of a supreme being

    Votes: 283 69.5%

  • Yes, but a supreme being guided their evolution

    Votes: 83 20.4%

  • No, I am an intelligent design proponent

    Votes: 19 4.7%

  • HELL NO! I am a straight up creationist! Genesis is where its at!

    Votes: 22 5.4%
  • Total voters
    407
thedoctor8706 said:
Maybe it's because it's outside of our realm of understanding... Do you honestly believe that out of nowhere the universe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe expanded from an extremely dense and hot state? The point being there's no way to know. I mean what if your wrong? If I'm wrong I have nothing to lose... Wow, this thread is quickly devolving into a debate on religion. 🙂
Click to expand...

If you're wrong you have nothing to lose? How about your understanding of the way the world actually works? Why do we have to throw our hands up in the air and say "God did it" just because we don't understand every detail of the universe's workings?

Pascal's Wager is what you're talking about, and it's completely bogus because for this to work you'd have to believe in every possible God and every possible religion to hedge your bets, and this doesn't work because most religions only allow you to believe in their version of God. Therefore, if you believe in the Christian God, if it's actually the Hindu god that exists, you're screwed and you go to Hindu hell. Etc so forth for Zeus, Allah, Poseidon, etc.

Relevant quote: "I maintain that we're both atheists, I just go one god further than you." This is true unless you believe in the entire Greek pantheon and every other god that has ever been dreamed up by confused humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
 
scotsdoc54 said:
True, but I'm not Behe. I'm not making those claims. The fallacious claim is the idea that if something can be explained through scientific understanding, then that logically concludes that there is no divine "guidance". That argument is untenable.
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All we have to test are natural explanations. It is not fallacious to say that "since we've explained this phenomenon by natural processes, we don't need a supernatural explanation". Supernatural/divine guidance is NOT scientific, thus cannot ever be tested. The point is this: if you contend that evolution explains the diversity of life, you don't need a supernatural explanation. Simple as that. It doesn't mean that there is no God.

scotsdoc54 said:
Can macro-evolution be falsifiable if its untestable? A lot of people would argue "no". Bunnies in the Cambrian could be explained through the addition of ad hoc hypotheses. Evolutionary theory (on the macro scale) has made great use of ad hoc hypotheses to explain away past discrepancies. All science, to some extent, does this. But much of the hard science out there is also testable.
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Richard Dawkins (I don't think he said it originally though) and many other evolutionary biologists are the ones who said if bunnies were in the Cambrian it would destroy evolution. I just gave you an example of how evolution is falsifiable, and all you said was "oh, they'd just come up with some way to explain it away..."

Give some credit to the scientists who do this work. It's not like they'd twist the facts to keep their precious theory alive. That's against the spirit of science, and because over 99% of biologists agree that evolution is real, you'd be saying 99% of biologists are in a conspiracy together.
 
Bible/Koran states that, human is created by dirt.

But it does not say anything the path between the dirt and human,

Religion give the initial and final points, but the evolution show the path between

these points.

If the religion does not state something. It is not wrong.

Religion does not state that the earth is oblate spheroid, , but earth is still

oblate spheroid.(Religion neither proves, nor disapproves it. But religion(I know

Koran, extremely supports studying science.) Science includes Biology/Chem))

Religion and evolution don`t contradict each other.

Only fans are messing it up!
------------------------------------

Creationism is just opinions, not facts.

They just they read religion and inferred certain beliefs, which are not even supported.

Science gives reasons for religion/ Creationism just state bias opinion, without reason.
 
rockaction said:
Give some credit to the scientists who do this work. It's not like they'd twist the facts to keep their precious theory alive. That's against the spirit of science, and because over 99% of biologists agree that evolution is real, you'd be saying 99% of biologists are in a conspiracy together.
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Yeah, there's no way 99% of biologists formed a conspiracy. They were waay to busy hatching a plan to shoot JFK from the grassy knoll.
 
redsquareblack said:
[YOUTUBE]T69TOuqaqXI[/YOUTUBE]
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That was a very interesting, well made clip. But by arguing that people like me who believe in a God are close-minded, they may be using their own argument against themselves. They are say I'm close-minded toward science by being open to God, when in reality, I'm open minded toward both. They say SCIENCE is the only way while they THINK I say GOD is the only way. I don't instantly label something unexplained as an act of the supernatural. That video was created by someone who had an idea and attempted to prove it, thereby was being close minded according to his own logic. Because of his predisposition to believe there is no possibility of a God, he used his every mental faculty to prove there couldn't be one and that those do believe it are close-minded, which I think is in itself close minded. Again, what have I to lose if I'm wrong?
 
SteinUmStein said:
I'd love to answer the question, "How did the human body come to be organized, if there is no God," as we just covered this is Biochem. Entropic costs are paid for by the breakdown of complex macromolecules into much less complex/organized molecules, such as CO2 and H20. The entropic gain from these reactions more than pays for the buildup of complex structures, such as complex macromolecules and ultimately tissues and entire organisms.

http://ldolphin.org/mystery/chapt7.html

http://atheism.about.com/od/evolutionabiogenesis/a/entropy.htm
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I disagree, this is ignorant.

Then the main goal of human is to create more entropy(start wars)?
 
rockaction said:
Give some credit to the scientists who do this work. It's not like they'd twist the facts to keep their precious theory alive.
Click to expand...

Hate to break the news to you, but these people get paid for researching this stuff. They will do whatever they have to to keep getting grants. Witness the Ice age to global warming to climate change shifts that have occurred over the past 30-40 years.
 
rockaction said:
All we have to test are natural explanations. It is not fallacious to say that "since we've explained this phenomenon by natural processes, we don't need a supernatural explanation". Supernatural/divine guidance is NOT scientific, thus cannot ever be tested. The point is this: if you contend that evolution explains the diversity of life, you don't need a supernatural explanation. Simple as that. It doesn't mean that there is no God.



Richard Dawkins (I don't think he said it originally though) and many other evolutionary biologists are the ones who said if bunnies were in the Cambrian it would destroy evolution. I just gave you an example of how evolution is falsifiable, and all you said was "oh, they'd just come up with some way to explain it away..."

Give some credit to the scientists who do this work. It's not like they'd twist the facts to keep their precious theory alive. That's against the spirit of science, and because over 99% of biologists agree that evolution is real, you'd be saying 99% of biologists are in a conspiracy together.
Click to expand...

I think you're misunderstanding me.

On your first point, I agree...kind of. I wasn't arguing that you need God to explain the diversity of life. My argument is that you need NOT exclude God from the equation. That's an often assumed point that never gets challenged, and from the original post I quoted, that seemed to be what you were saying.

On your second point: No, I challenged the assertion that something can be falsifiable when its untestable. I didn't say "they'd just make stuff up to keep the theory alive". I'm saying that something that is inherently untestable often relies on ad hoc hypotheses for verification, leaving it free to be unfalsifiable. I'm not saying that's bad (all science has done it at some point). And I give the scientists all the credit in the world. Evolution has really advanced our understanding of the natural world. I believe in it. But, it remains untestable, and as such, will remain a theory.
 
bleargh said:
lol you need to actually study what entropy is.
Click to expand...

Lol, I don`t go to college just to go to memorize some ideas. I like mines better.

🙂

But actually you are right, i have a midterm tomorrow.
 
Grand said:
I disagree, this is ignorant.

Then the main goal of human is to create more entropy(start wars)?
Click to expand...

A potential future physician calling the concept of entropy "ignorant?" Have you taken the MCAT good sir?
 
Grand said:
Lol, I don`t go to college just to go to memorize some ideas. I like mines better.

🙂

But actually you are right, i have a midterm tomorrow.
Click to expand...
word! why bother learning when you can make your own 'science'?
 
SteinUmStein said:
A potential future physician calling the concept of entropy "ignorant?" Have you taken the MCAT good sir?
Click to expand...

I don`t call concept to be "ignorant." But certain assumption are wrong.

No. I have not taken MCAT. What is Mcat, another test?
 
bleargh said:
word! why bother learning when you can make your own 'science'?
Click to expand...
Doonesbury-Jan.gif
 
bleargh said:
word! why bother learning when you can make your own 'science'?
Click to expand...

Why bother learning, if we cannot add anything new.

Ok I give up on these, I am not enough qualified ...yet. just freshman.
 
scotsdoc54 said:
I think you're misunderstanding me.

On your first point, I agree...kind of. I wasn't arguing that you need God to explain the diversity of life. My argument is that you need NOT exclude God from the equation. That's an often assumed point that never gets challenged, and from the original post I quoted, that seemed to be what you were saying.
Click to expand...

Explain how God can be quantified or objectified.


scotsdoc54 said:
On your second point: No, I challenged the assertion that something can be falsifiable when its untestable. I didn't say "they'd just make stuff up to keep the theory alive". I'm saying that something that is inherently untestable often relies on ad hoc hypotheses for verification, leaving it free to be unfalsifiable. I'm not saying that's bad (all science has done it at some point). And I give the scientists all the credit in the world. Evolution has really advanced our understanding of the natural world. I believe in it. But, it remains untestable, and as such, will remain a theory.
Click to expand...

Someone is dangerously close to saying "evolution's just a theory!" I'm not even treading down that path, because I don't want to insult your intelligence if you meant someone else by that.

If it's falsifiable, it's testable...are we on the same page there? That's how you do science, you try to falsify the hypothesis, right?
 
SteinUmStein said:
If you're wrong you have nothing to lose? How about your understanding of the way the world actually works? Why do we have to throw our hands up in the air and say "God did it" just because we don't understand every detail of the universe's workings?

Pascal's Wager is what you're talking about, and it's completely bogus because for this to work you'd have to believe in every possible God and every possible religion to hedge your bets, and this doesn't work because most religions only allow you to believe in their version of God. Therefore, if you believe in the Christian God, if it's actually the Hindu god that exists, you're screwed and you go to Hindu hell. Etc so forth for Zeus, Allah, Poseidon, etc.

Relevant quote: "I maintain that we're both atheists, I just go one god further than you." This is true unless you believe in the entire Greek pantheon and every other god that has ever been dreamed up by confused humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
Click to expand...

Oh I'm very aware of Pascal's Wager and the apparent logic behind it. I'm sorry if I derailed this discussion toward an irrelevant topic. What I meant is that my faith has only been a positive part of my life, and it certainly hasn't caused me to dismiss the practical pursuit of scientific knowledge, hence, I have nothing to lose. Being a student of science and potentially medicine, I understand the need to pursue knowledge and not instantly label the unexplained as unexplainable. But that doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't believe in God.
 
Grand said:
Why bother learning, if we cannot add anything new.

Ok I give up on these, I am not enough qualified ...yet. just freshman.
Click to expand...
doesn't show at all what with your very thorough grasp of thermo.
 
Grand said:
Lol, I don`t go to college just to go to memorize some ideas. I like mines better.

🙂

But actually you are right, i have a midterm tomorrow.
Click to expand...


this is a testament to how the most compelling arguments are often made with the worst evidence (and even poorer understanding of the English language).

i truly hope your midterm tomorrow is not in an English class.
 
scotsdoc54 said:
My argument is that you need NOT exclude God from the equation. That's an often assumed point that never gets challenged, and from the original post I quoted, that seemed to be what you were saying.
Click to expand...

Before you can include God, you need to define and prove his existence. To explain complexity by positing, by definition, an even more complex entity is asinine, because then it requires further explanation of God's origin.

scotsdoc54 said:
And I give the scientists all the credit in the world. Evolution has really advanced our understanding of the natural world. I believe in it. But, it remains untestable, and as such, will remain a theory.
Click to expand...

You simply misunderstand the word theory. Evolution is falsifiable - rabbits in the precambrian, for example. You have all the genetic evidence, ontological evidence, fossil evidence, etc.
 
rockaction said:
Someone is dangerously close to saying "evolution's just a theory!" I'm not even treading down that path, because I don't want to insult your intelligence if you meant someone else by that.
Click to expand...

Screw it, man. I'll do it for you.

Theory... that word you keep using... I do not think it means what you think it means.
 
Grand said:
I don`t call concept to be "ignorant." But certain assumption are wrong.

No. I have not taken MCAT. What is Mcat, another test?
Click to expand...

Please tell me you are not serious. It makes people who believe my case look rediculous.
 
Grand said:
Why bother learning, if we cannot add anything new.

Ok I give up on these, I am not enough qualified ...yet. just freshman.
Click to expand...


please stop.....you are ruining the English language for me.....I'm thinking about Arabic now




.....maybe German
 
Lokhtar said:
science-vs-religion.jpg
Click to expand...

Making people think that they can't believe there is a God AND believe in many scientific breakthroughs/evolution/etc is a false idea.

I believe there is a God AND I believe all the things science has discovered. These are NOT contradictory as many people who have faith say, they just don't understand the science side so they discredit it.

The only great question is, where did matter come from etc. I'm talking about before 4.5 billion years ago, before earth, before the cosmos, etc. This a question no one can definitively answer or prove.
 
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thedoctor8706 said:
I really wish people knew it was possible to practice faith AND science without being a complete *****.
Click to expand...

Is it? Without practicing a severe form of cognitive dissonance?
 
thedoctor8706 said:
I really wish people knew it was possible to practice faith AND science without being a complete *****.
Click to expand...
+1
it's quite unfortunate, however, how the religious often misunderstand or misue science. doesn't have to be an adversarial relationship.
 
BennieBlanco said:
The greatest trick the devil ever played was making people think that they can't believe there is a God AND believe in many scientific breakthroughs/evolution/etc.
Click to expand...
i listen to nothing that follows this phrase.
 
20% not 70%!!
 
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Lokhtar said:
Is it? Without practicing a severe form of cognitive dissonance?
Click to expand...

bleargh said:
+1
it's quite unfortunate, however, how the religious often misunderstand or misue science. doesn't have to be an adversarial relationship.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it's true. There are too many people who ignore the wisdom of science because it contradicts their faith. I'd like to believe that I'm not one of those people.
 
Let me say this. I respect everyone's opinion and everyone can believe what they would like.

Yet, it is better when we don't call each other *****s. I believe in evolution yet I know many people who don't.

I don't call them *****s. I just understand they haven't learned some of the things that I have. This is ok because not everyone has a proclivity towards education.

To each his own. I hope you don't call your children *****s when they get basic algebra questions wrong or a child in a different country without an education. Let people learn and if they are ignorant then it isn't each of our jobs to relieve everyone of their ignorance. *Time to resign our roles as general manager of the universe.
 
BennieBlanco said:
Let me say this. I respect everyone's opinion and everyone can believe what they would like.

Yet, it is better when we don't call each other *****s. I believe in evolution yet I know many people who don't.

I don't call them *****s. I just understand they haven't learned some of the things that I have. This is ok because not everyone has a proclivity towards education.

To each his own. I hope you don't call your children *****s when they get basic algebra questions wrong or a child in a different country without an education. Let people learn and if they are ignorant then it isn't each of our jobs to relieve everyone of their ignorance. *Time to resign our roles as general manager of the universe.
Click to expand...

if my child comes home and tells me algebra is like alchemy, then yes, he is a *****.
 
:corny:

Great way to pass some time I guess. Especially if you like arguing.

I'll interject my one thought, and leave it at that, because I am NOT in the mood for a religious flame war, but really, there is evidence for both, logically and statistically.

The problem is not in the evidence, it's in the interpretation of it and personal bias that occurs on both sides of this debate.

My point: If ANYONE could PROVE there were no God, I can guarantee that we would know about it. Too many people are out to do that as it is, and yet it still has not been done.

I personally believe there is a God, and that He created the universe. I just don't have enough faith to believe that all that matter from the Big Bang just didn't exist one minute and did the next. How could eternal matter have not existed, come to a point of critical mass, and then BAM, the universe is just there? Too big of a question for me to answer. But I'm sure some pre-med, in their all-knowing wisdom, can enlighten us all. 🙄

I also respect the scientific method, and am a proponent of questioning one's faith. SCIENCE and PERSONAL FAITH are NOT mutually exclusive. This is the reason I believe what I do. And I am CONSTANTLY questioning things around me, never following blindly.

Oh well. Carry on.
 
BennieBlanco said:
Let me say this. I respect everyone's opinion and everyone can believe what they would like.

Yet, it is better when we don't call each other *****s. I believe in evolution yet I know many people who don't.

I don't call them *****s. I just understand they haven't learned some of the things that I have. This is ok because not everyone has a proclivity towards education.

To each his own. I hope you don't call your children *****s when they get basic algebra questions wrong or a child in a different country without an education. Let people learn and if they are ignorant then it isn't each of our jobs to relieve everyone of their ignorance. *Time to resign our roles as general manager of the universe.
Click to expand...

The people who look at the evidence for evolution and reject it to keep their fragile religious ideas in tact do not deserve to be coddled.

Sorry if that's harsh but that's what I believe.
 
BennieBlanco said:
Let me say this. I respect everyone's opinion and everyone can believe what they would like.

Yet, it is better when we don't call each other *****s. I believe in evolution yet I know many people who don't.

I don't call them *****s. I just understand they haven't learned some of the things that I have. This is ok because not everyone has a proclivity towards education.

To each his own. I hope you don't call your children *****s when they get basic algebra questions wrong or a child in a different country without an education. Let people learn and if they are ignorant then it isn't each of our jobs to relieve everyone of their ignorance. *Time to resign our roles as general manager of the universe.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone here should actually be arguing about "evolution" since that's been pretty much proven. Hell, I could throw white fish and black fish in a black pond with predators and show you how the group evolved into being just black.

I think what you people are arguing about is abiogensis?
Or if you're really in the mood for some crazy then big bang/multiverse?
 
BennieBlanco said:
Let me say this. I respect everyone's opinion and everyone can believe what they would like.

Yet, it is better when we don't call each other *****s. I believe in evolution yet I know many people who don't.

I don't call them *****s. I just understand they haven't learned some of the things that I have. This is ok because not everyone has a proclivity towards education.

To each his own. I hope you don't call your children *****s when they get basic algebra questions wrong or a child in a different country without an education. Let people learn and if they are ignorant then it isn't each of our jobs to relieve everyone of their ignorance. *Time to resign our roles as general manager of the universe.
Click to expand...

Being the one who originally typed *****, I can only assume this is directed towards me. I wasn't calling anyone a *****, I was saying it is possible to observe science and faith without being a *****. Context FTW
 
bamtuba said:
My point: If ANYONE could PROVE there were no God, I can guarantee that we would know about it. Too many people are out to do that as it is, and yet it still has not been done.
Click to expand...

You can't disprove anything, from pink unicorns on venus to the judeo christian god. The onus is on those who makes a claim.

bamtuba said:
I personally believe there is a God, and that He created the universe. I just don't have enough faith to believe that all that matter from the Big Bang just didn't exist one minute and did the next. How could eternal matter have not existed, come to a point of critical mass, and then BAM, the universe is just there?
Click to expand...

Misunderstanding of the big bang theory.
 
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