Do you believe in evolution through natural selection?

[thedoctor8706]

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Great way to pass some time I guess. Especially if you like arguing.

I'll interject my one thought, and leave it at that, because I am NOT in the mood for a religious flame war, but really, there is evidence for both, logically and statistically.

The problem is not in the evidence, it's in the interpretation of it and personal bias that occurs on both sides of this debate.

My point: If ANYONE could PROVE there were no God, I can guarantee that we would know about it. Too many people are out to do that as it is, and yet it still has not been done.

I personally believe there is a God, and that He created the universe. I just don't have enough faith to believe that all that matter from the Big Bang just didn't exist one minute and did the next. How could eternal matter have not existed, come to a point of critical mass, and then BAM, the universe is just there? Too big of a question for me to answer. But I'm sure some pre-med, in their all-knowing wisdom, can enlighten us all. 🙄

I also respect the scientific method, and am a proponent of questioning one's faith. SCIENCE and PERSONAL FAITH are NOT mutually exclusive. This is the reason I believe what I do. And I am CONSTANTLY questioning things around me, never following blindly.

Oh well. Carry on.

👍

Dang, I have an ecology exam tomorrow (a worthless class if you are premed IMO) and I need to study, lol! And then I'll probably get stuck watching football in a 1/2 hour as my team is about to play...

 

[WashMe]

The existence of viruses-- throwbacks to the archaic RNA world-- is why I believe in evolution of life by natural selection. Why would non-living organic molecules (RNA viruses) exist separately from complex organisms in an intelligent design scheme? What "motivation" could viruses have to exist? Viruses spread rampantly, do immense harm, and have nearly no benefit to their hosts (occasional beneficial genetic diversity aside). For something that could not possibly have a will to exist, a virus does a pretty amazing job of propagating at our expense...

 

[jerew]

You do realize Alchemy lasted sooo much longer than our New Age Science has been around right?

You also must realize that until Albert Einstein, Physics and Math were completely different than they are now right?

If someone else comes around and finds a new discovery Science changes. The Bible doesn't change. I'm gonna stick with the consistent.

Einstein's equations reduce to those of Newton in the case of low velocities and low (non-blackhole like) masses. Newton was 99% of the way there. As a graduate student in physics, I can tell you that a theory as well-established as Newtons was NOT toppled, merely corrected for in limiting cases. Einstein had no effect on math, only its application to physics. Your inductive argument for evolution's eventual toppling is very tenuous.

I respect your opinions, since you are in the heart of the lion's den here! But since that IS the case, I would recommend making deeper, non-standard arguments, maybe ones that really go after the heart of science's limitations (this goes for the other side as well, I just picked on this one because it made my physics side go 🙁 ).

 

[bamtuba]

You can't disprove anything, from pink unicorns on venus to the judeo christian god. The onus is on those who makes a claim.

Misunderstanding of the big bang theory.

Exactly. Which is why neither side will offer the PROOF that the other side will see as definitive. This goes both ways. This is why I will leave my statement as written.

Not really. But since none of us was there, and it is just "the best theory we can currently offer," it seems as much of a stretch to me as it may seem to you that a God could have "snapped His fingers." Both sound pretty absurd to the other side.

Edit: I have nothing against the Big Bang Theory, really, I just think that there is "something out there" that caused it to occur. And that something is, in my opinion, God.

Alright, now I'll do what I said and leave well enough alone.

 

[Lokhtar]

The existence of viruses-- throwbacks to the archaic RNA world-- is why I believe in evolution of life by natural selection. Why would non-living organic molecules (RNA viruses) exist separately from complex organisms in an intelligent design scheme? What "motivation" could viruses have to exist? Viruses spread rampantly, do immense harm, and have nearly no benefit to their hosts (occasional beneficial genetic diversity aside). For something that could not possibly have a will to exist, a virus does a pretty amazing job of propagating at our expense...

Not to mention the genetic similarities, the existance of genetic code that is no longer useful (tails and gills anyone?), ontogeny, etc. The case for evolution would be just as strong if we had zero fossils.

 

[chman]

Sometimes I think that SDN could be used as a case study to prove that Darwinism is a false theory. (for the record I chose #1).

 

[Lokhtar]

Not really. But since none of us was there, and it is just "the best theory we can currently offer," not a law, it seems as much of a stretch to me as it may seem to you that a God could have "snapped His fingers." Both sound pretty absurd to the other side.

No, I mean God is not a theory because it is not testable, nor falsifiable. Big Bang is testable. You can test for the microwave background radiation, for example. Finally, to say you weren't there doesn't make sense - in court you can use DNA evidence to prove what happened (for example) without the jury having been there.

Second, what came 'before' the Big Bang may not be a valid question. If you know anything about relativity, time can slow down at high speeds or in high density (gravity) regions. When the universe was small, the density was high, and at one point, it was infinitely high, meaning time as a concept did not exist. However, our theories are not complete at this stage, but in science we can say the words 'I don't know.' That is different from saying, 'I know', because the latter requires proof. You cannot equate one to another.

Also, the laws of physics allow for the creation of the universe (as long as its flat, meaning the total energy is zero - and it appears that this is the case in our universe).

 

[GTV]

Option 2. Francis Collins FTW!


Also,

 

[bamtuba]

No, I mean God is not a theory because it is not testable, nor falsifiable. Big Bang is testable. You can test for the microware background radiation, for example.

Second, what came 'before' the Big Bang may not be a valid question. If you know anything about relativity, time can slow down at high speeds or in high density (gravity) regions. When the universe was small, the density was high, and at one point, it was infinitely high, meaning time as a concept did not exist. However, our theories are not complete at this stage, but in science we can say the words 'I don't know.' That is different from saying, 'I know', because the latter requires proof. You cannot equate one to another.

Also, the laws of physics allow for the creation of the universe (as long as its flat, meaning the total energy is zero - and it appears that this is the case in our universe).

Yep, I love Physics. 👍

Interesting stuff. I still hold out hope that we will have teleporters one day.

Seriously. If it is possible. That would be sweet. 🙂

 

[jerew]

Yes, but a supreme being guided their evolution

II Law of Thermodynamics

For every reaction to be spontaneous it must increase entropy of universe.

So nature favors maximum disorder. If so, how did human body came to be so

organized?

There is some power which supervised the evolution. Without this power,

evolution would have been impossible.

Then how did a tree grow from dirt and gas? Or how did electron spins align in a ferromagnet? This is another standard argument that simply doesn't work. It seems so right too, prime facie! We think we see order increase all the time (and indeed we do, e.g. trees and magnets), but what we pay less attention to is the increase in DISorder. As humans, its easy to forget the increases in thermal energy that drive these processes. In exactly the same way trees make order by heating up their environment, other things in nature can come together to give an apparent decrease in order. The second law is ALWAYS true, and has no affect on the perceived increase in order you think evolution carries.

 

[Lokhtar]

If anyone is interested further on the big bang and topics like that, I highly recommend this.

 

[strummin]

i listen to nothing that follows this phrase.

Lol. This reminds me of a Lewis Black skit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIvD4ylMmDk

The bit where he talks about "the devil's handiwork" is hilarious.

 

[Tots]

2 Words: Peanut Butter.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Lokhtar]

LOL, what a *****. Does anyone actually believe that fully formed bacteria can arise out of conditions found in a peanut butter jar?

Almost as bad as the banana man. Almost.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

If someone else comes around and finds a new discovery Science changes. The Bible doesn't change. I'm gonna stick with the consistent.

you plan on being doctor of faith healing?

 

[oaklandguy]

you plan on being doctor of faith healing?

Nope.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Nope.

but medicine changes. the bible is constant.

 

[oaklandguy]

but medicine changes. the bible is constant.

Hopefully God will be able to help guide me through the changes of medicine. Maybe I can be the type of Doctor like Luke the made-up biblical character...

 

[Vulcan]

you plan on being doctor of faith healing?

People are gonna believe what they want, sometimes without proof even though we have all been taught as premeds to demand proof. If you like something you can measure, that's fine. Some people like the fact that there is something bigger than themselves out there that they cannot comprehend.

Nothing wrong with a physician who is religious...as long as they don't let their beliefs get in the way of the treatment...

 

[Tots]

LOL, what a *****. Does anyone actually believe that fully formed bacteria can arise out of conditions found in a peanut butter jar?

Almost as bad as the banana man. Almost.

Apparently...at least 3 people on that video.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Hopefully God will be able to help guide me through the changes of medicine. Maybe I can be the type of Doctor like Luke the made-up biblical character...

but only you though. god guides no one else. certainly not evolutionists.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Nothing wrong with a physician who is religious...as long as they don't let their beliefs get in the way of the treatment...

absolutely nothing wrong with a religious physician. not what's at issue here with oaklandguy

 

[oaklandguy]

but only you though. god guides no one else. certainly not evolutionists.

He can guide someone who doesn't believe in Him, but if they don't believe in Him or his power why would they listen to his guidance? If you don't believe God has the power to create everything how are you going to listen to his signs?

 

[Vulcan]

He can guide someone who doesn't believe in Him, but if they don't believe in Him or his power why would they listen to his guidance? If you don't believe God has the power to create everything how are you going to listen to his signs?

Perhaps some people have a different interpretation? Again, we have all been trained in undergrad and med school in disciplines that are constantly changing and have exceptions all over the place...surely some of those people are somewhat religious...it follows that they will have varying interpretations on how they view a higher power, if they choose to do so.

 

[oaklandguy]

Perhaps some people have a different interpretation? Again, we have all been trained in undergrad and med school in disciplines that are constantly changing and have exceptions all over the place...surely some of those people are somewhat religious...it follows that they will have varying interpretations on how they view a higher power, if they choose to do so.

You're living in contradiction and hypocrisy if you believe in an all powerful God who can guide your life, but not have created our Earth and created us.

 

[Vulcan]

You're living in contradiction and hypocrisy if you believe in an all powerful God who can guide your life, but not have created our Earth and created us.

:: What does it matter? If people who believe that are wrong, what's the big deal? Any way you slice it, we could turn out to be wrong. If you believe in a higher power, then thats great for you. If you don't, also great. In the end, it doesn't matter who was right or whether what they believed followed perfectly with someone else's interpretation. If someone's personal view on the universe provides them solace, then why should it bother you?

 

[Lokhtar]

You're not living in reality if you dispute evolution.

 

[rockaction]

You're living in contradiction and hypocrisy if you believe in an all powerful God who can guide your life, but not have created our Earth and created us.

The whole point of theistic evolution is that:

1. God created the universe, and put into place a set of natural laws to govern it
2. These natural laws culminated in the evolution of man.

Thus, God "created" man through natural processes. How exactly do you envision it? *Poof* and man exists out of thin air?

 

[Vulcan]

You're not living in reality if you dispute evolution.

Those who dispute it are not living in your reality. Belief is a very real thing...regardless of what the belief is, people use it as a psychological bolster in rough times. If they don't believe in evolution then so be it.

 

[musafirah]

No, I mean God is not a theory because it is not testable, nor falsifiable. Big Bang is testable. You can test for the microwave background radiation, for example. Finally, to say you weren't there doesn't make sense - in court you can use DNA evidence to prove what happened (for example) without the jury having been there.

Second, what came 'before' the Big Bang may not be a valid question. If you know anything about relativity, time can slow down at high speeds or in high density (gravity) regions. When the universe was small, the density was high, and at one point, it was infinitely high, meaning time as a concept did not exist. However, our theories are not complete at this stage, but in science we can say the words 'I don't know.' That is different from saying, 'I know', because the latter requires proof. You cannot equate one to another.

Also, the laws of physics allow for the creation of the universe (as long as its flat, meaning the total energy is zero - and it appears that this is the case in our universe).

👍 damn, this is exactly what i wanted to say.
cosmology for the win.. physics in general strengthens my belief, but especially cosmology. it really makes me appreciate the statement "we don't know."

 

[rockaction]

Those who dispute it are not living in your reality. Belief is a very real thing...regardless of what the belief is, people use it as a psychological bolster in rough times. If they don't believe in evolution then so be it.

To an extent. A doctor shouldn't harbor feelings of disbelief in evolution. Then this doctor would be doubting a fundamental science. Doctors must be scientists, there is no getting around that.

 

[oaklandguy]

The whole point of theistic evolution is that:

1. God created the universe, and put into place a set of natural laws to govern it
2. These natural laws culminated in the evolution of man.

Thus, God "created" man through natural processes. How exactly do you envision it? *Poof* and man exists out of thin air?

I personally believe what Genesis says and in every word the Bible says. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Vulcan]

To an extent. A doctor shouldn't harbor feelings of disbelief in evolution. Then this doctor would be doubting a fundamental science. Doctors must be scientists, there is no getting around that.

I absolutely agree with the bold. However, assuming a doctor never lets his personal belief clash with proven treatment options or with the patient's wishes, why should belief in one specific (albeit large) area of science matter?

 

[Vulcan]

I personally believe what Genesis says and in every word the Bible says. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

And as a physician what will you do if a patient's wishes contradicts your own religious belief?

 

[Grand]

Really? You'll call me out on a typo? lol. I think we've proven I can't spell but at least I know what an MCAT is.

Jalko chto MCAT does not check any sorcastic skills.

 

[musafirah]

And as a physician what will you do if a patient's wishes contradicts your own religious belief?

um.. that goes both ways though doesn't it?


i think its funny to call evolution (as the origin of the universe/organisms) a fundamental science, when it doesn't have any mathematical proof. all the proof is analogies and deductive reasoning.

 

[Vulcan]

um.. that goes both ways though doesn't it?

What dyou mean?

 

[rockaction]

I personally believe what Genesis says and in every word the Bible says. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Have you ever critically analyzed the Bible? The Bible says pi is 3.0 (1 Kings 7:23). The Bible says the earth was formed before the sun (Genesis 1). The Bible says some insects have 4 legs, which is wrong (Leviticus 11:20).

The Bible is not without error, so why do you hold it so literally? You can still believe in it, though. But why do you use your belief in the Bible to combat the theory of evolution? Do you use your belief in the Bible to solve the area of a circle? Why the hypocrisy?

 

[oaklandguy]

I will not allow my beliefs to get in my way of patient care, other than there being certain tasks I will have to refer patients to get done, (ex: I would never give an abortion) etc etc.

 

[oaklandguy]

Have you ever critically analyzed the Bible? The Bible says pi is 3.0 (1 Kings 7:23). The Bible says the earth was formed before the sun (Genesis 1). The Bible says some insects have 4 legs, which is wrong (Leviticus 11:20).

The Bible is not without error, so why do you hold it so literally? You can still believe in it, but why do you use your belief in the Bible to combat the theory of evolution? Do you use your belief in the Bible to solve the area of a circle? Why the hypocrisy?

If you don't take every part of the Bible literally, then you can take the section that said Jesus died for our sins and say it's not literal, then there is no defeat of sin, we're not saved, and we're all going to hell. The Bible also has many historical truths, for instance Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel, and also the prophecies in Daniel which talk about the Roman Empire, the Turkish Empire, and others that happened. You don't know if insects back then had four legs, the Earth easily could have been formed before the sun, and the Bible's definition of pi can be different than pi now.

 

[Vulcan]

I will not allow my beliefs to get in my way of patient care, other than there being certain tasks I will have to refer patients to get done, (ex: I would never give an abortion) etc etc.

So then its all good. As long as you're not forcing your beliefs on anyone else, then you can certainly be an excellent physician while retaining your religious zeal.

 

[musafirah]

What dyou mean?

we all have beliefs whether they are rooted in religion or not. i've had more experiences with physicians who are NOT religious and think they know better than the patient so they prescribe treatments despite the patient's beliefs and wishes. whether its religious beliefs or believing your 'logic and reasoning' is superior, all physicians have to put those things aside to respect the patient and their family's preferences. its not only creationists that will find patients with wishes that contradict one's own beliefs.. all of us will. every doctor needs to develop some humility to do the job right.

 

[StormingWynn]

Option numero dos. I chose number two because the existance of God can neither be proven or disproven. I myself believe that the Universe is God; therefore, the evolutionary pattern is govern by nature(God).

 

[crasiman]

You do realize Alchemy lasted sooo much longer than our New Age Science has been around right?

You also must realize that until Albert Einstein, Physics and Math were completely different than they are now right?

If someone else comes around and finds a new discovery Science changes. The Bible doesn't change. I'm gonna stick with the consistent.

Consistently wrong.

 

[musafirah]

If you don't take every part of the Bible literally, then you can take the section that said Jesus died for our sins and say it's not literal, then there is no defeat of sin, we're not saved, and we're all going to hell. The Bible also has many historical truths, for instance Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel, and also the prophecies in Daniel which talk about the Roman Empire, the Turkish Empire, and others that happened. You don't know if insects back then had four legs, the Earth easily could have been formed before the sun, and the Bible's definition of pi can be different than pi now.

but the bible was written by MEN who were "inspired by the divine." those men are infallible? why?
the bible was written(or altered by men to be) in the understanding of the people of that time because they could not fathom reality being different that what they 'knew' it to be then. it was those men's perceptions and attempts to make sense based on what they knew, not absolute truths.

 

[BennieBlanco]

This thread will likely lead to no good.

Everyone can believe what they'd like, someone is right but that will be determined later.

How exactly matter came into existence no one can really describe.

 

[Vulcan]

we all have beliefs whether they are rooted in religion or not. i've had more experiences with physicians who are NOT religious and think they know better than the patient so they prescribe treatments despite the patient's beliefs and wishes. whether its religious beliefs or believing your 'logic and reasoning' is superior, all physicians have to put those things aside to respect the patient and their family's preferences. its not only creationists that will find patients with wishes that contradict one's own beliefs.. all of us will. every doctor needs to develop some humility to do the job right.

Absolutely correct. This is one of the best things I've seen on this thread. Remember, we are treating the patient, and what they want comes first. We certainly have a responsibility to discuss the ramifications of their actions (i.e. not believing in antibiotics or vaccines), but in the end, we cannot force our decisions on our patients. If they want to walk out of the ER with appendicitis, that is their choice, as long as we have informed them that they could die. We are not here to change the belief system of our patients.

 

[musafirah]

Option numero dos. I chose number two because the existance of God can neither be proven or disproven. I myself believe that the Universe is God; therefore, the evolutionary pattern is govern by nature(God).

then you believe God is bound by the laws of the universe? or by time?
you believe that the universe is eternal and had no beginning? or is it that you believe God came to be when the universe did?

😕

 

[rockaction]

If you don't take every part of the Bible literally, then you can take the section that said Jesus died for our sins and say it's not literal, then there is no defeat of sin, we're not saved, and we're all going to hell.

It's up to you to decide what the purpose of the Bible is, then. Is it to document God's saving grace or combat the evils of scientific discovery?

You don't know if insects back then had four legs, the Earth easily could have been formed before the sun, and the Bible's definition of pi can be different than pi now.

Proof that you take the Bible way too seriously. You are completely and utterly cool with disregarding reality to make it fit into your definition of God.

We all have to make decisions when it comes down to our beliefs in a higher power. I personally decided that I could not reconcile a literal Bible with reality and I didn't want to be intellectually dishonest and disconnected from reality. There's ways you can make it work, man. But reality is testable and God is not. So make your God a reflection of reality, not the other way around.

 

[musafirah]

Absolutely correct. This is one of the best things I've seen on this thread. Remember, we are treating the patient, and what they want comes first. We certainly have a responsibility to discuss the ramifications of their actions (i.e. not believing in antibiotics or vaccines), but in the end, we cannot force our decisions on our patients. If they want to walk out of the ER with appendicitis, that is their choice, as long as we have informed them that they could die. We are not here to change the belief system of our patients.

🙂