Do you believe in evolution through natural selection?

[RogueUnicorn]

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note that i said "darwinism" not evolution.
perhaps i should have said "social darwinism" to be clearer. the question was about morals and not science.

but, i supposed its convenient to pick and choose and ignore those social implications

the kind of classical darwinism you are talking about is no longer the concept we discuss in relation to evolutionary forces.

 

[rockaction]

note that i said "darwinism" not evolution.
perhaps i should have said "social darwinism" to be clearer. the question was about morals and not science.

but, i supposed its convenient to pick and choose and ignore those social implications

Darwin himself rejected "social darwinism"

 

[greatnt249]

note that i said "darwinism" not evolution.
perhaps i should have said "social darwinism" to be clearer. the question was about morals and not science.

but, i supposed its convenient to pick and choose and ignore those social implications

"Social Darwinism" is a corruption of true evolutionary theory; just because people construct fallacious arguments to propagate the idea of removing "genetic defects" from the gene pool by force doesn't mean the theory of evolution is wrong.

 

[austinap]

Silly? Believing absolutely nothing organized our Universe isn't silly what-so-ever.

I do not have the time, energy, nor do I want to do a factorial. However, if the moon were a different weight and size, the earths axis would be off causing a completely different orbit around the sun. This would lead to the earths orbit crashing into another planets orbit. Nonetheless does evolution explain why the only planet with perfect distance from the sun to sustain life also is the planet in our solar system with vast amounts of water which is required to sustain life? It also happens that this planet has magentic poles, and an atmosphere that protects it's living creatures? Did evolution provide all of these things as well? All of these coincidences came from nothing as well? Just luck?

You apparently have never heard of the anthropic principle.

Consider the possibility that there's only one planet in the entire universe that is capable of sustaining life. There are billions+ of possible plants, but only one works. Since there is life on THIS planet, we must be on that same planet that just happened to be able to sustain life. Selection bias explains why our planet happens to be able to sustain life, not evolution.

 

[oaklandguy]

Way to completely misread what I wrote and then dramatize the hell out of it.

I said you're a troll for stating that you take everything in the bible literally. I don't know of a single modern theologian that takes such a stance. It's idiotic because the bible is not self-consistent. Taking this stance is the equivalent to saying "I don't even understand the text on which I'm basing all of my beliefs and my entire wold view". It makes you a *****.

I do understand the text on which I am basing all of my beliefs on.

You seriously think that everyone who believes in the Bible is a *****? You need a severe reality check. Taking the Bible half-literally would be like you saying Evolution is real, but fish weren't a part of evolution. If you want to take the Bible and say it is completely false, well you cannot do that either because there are proven records of many Biblical writings (things that Sceince said couldn't exist like Hezekiah's tunnel and the axels and wheels found at the bottom of the red sea). To say Jesus never existed is false, because there are records of his existence found in non-biblical texts. To say Jesus was a bad man is silly, because all texts that include him and the general consensus is that he was a good man. However, Jesus claimed he was God, therefore he must have been insane right? How come he is not remembered as someone who was insane?

I honestly could not care any less whether you thought I was a ***** or I was brilliant, and you will probably still feel as though I am a ***** no matter what argument I make because the reality of the situation is that if I had the same view as you, you would assume I was intelligent no matter what my actual intelligence would be.

 

[greatnt249]

Darwin himself rejected "social darwinism"

Additionally, Darwin was very careful how he worded his evolutionary theory to prevent people from misinterpreting the essence of his theory.

 

[Brent8927]

The Bible isn't the reason I do not accept evolution. I choose to believe in the Bible instead of believing in evolution. Evolution just does not overwhelm me, and does not explain enough of what happens in my life.

The fact that no animal can tame another animal, yet humans can tame every animal. The fact that we don't see monkeys building sky scrapers, yet we see humans building sky scrapers, even though we are very genetically similar. Evolution just doesn't answer my questions I guess, that is why I have the personal choice of believing in something else. If you can answer my questions, I will gladly re-asses my beliefs.

Believing in God and evolution isn't mutually exclusive. Evolution explains very well how our physical beings came into existence. Faith and religion explain the intangible--how our spiritual selves came into existence, what why we are here (i.e. what is our purpose?)

This is what I believe. You do have a right to believe what you want to (it isn't hurting anybody, and a lot of people believe in the same thing as you). And everybody else has that same right as well.

Personally, I don't see why it matters that much why others have to believe the same thing as me/you/everyone else. Lets just accept that we all have different philosophies in life and that we each have the right to think and believe as we do.

After that, we can all enjoy a beer together.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Believing in God and evolution isn't mutually exclusive. Evolution explains very well how our physical beings came into existence. Faith and religion explain the intangible--how our spiritual selves came into existence, what why we are here (i.e. what is our purpose?)

Thank you.

 

[rockaction]

Personally, I don't see why it matters that much why others have to believe the same thing as me/you/everyone else. Lets just accept that we all have different philosophies in life and that we each have the right to think and believe as we do.

After that, we can all enjoy a beer together.

I agree. But oaklandguy wants to be a scientist while rejecting the philosophy of science. I've got a problem with that. I think he'll probably drift from strict Biblical literalism someday, as many people who deeply study the Bible tend to do. It's just sad to me to see people so deeply entrenched in their religious beliefs that they reject good science.

 

[scotsdoc54]

Thank you.

Agreed.



As this thread has completely left me since I went out a few hours ago (it's amazing how fast a thread fills up and changes direction), I'm gonna continue my previous debate with rockaction through PM.

Anyone else who wanted to debate can PM me as well. This is fun, and a good mental exercise.

 

[austinap]

I do understand the text on which I am basing all of my beliefs on.

You seriously think that everyone who believes in the Bible is a *****? You need a severe reality check. Taking the Bible half-literally would be like you saying Evolution is real, but fish weren't a part of evolution. If you want to take the Bible and say it is completely false, well you cannot do that either because there are proven records of many Biblical writings (things that Sceince said couldn't exist like Hezekiah's tunnel and the axels and wheels found at the bottom of the red sea). To say Jesus never existed is false, because there are records of his existence found in non-biblical texts. To say Jesus was a bad man is silly, because all texts that include him and the general consensus is that he was a good man. However, Jesus claimed he was God, therefore he must have been insane right? How come he is not remembered as someone who was insane?

I honestly could not care any less whether you thought I was a ***** or I was brilliant, and you will probably still feel as though I am a ***** no matter what argument I make because the reality of the situation is that if I had the same view as you, you would assume I was intelligent no matter what my actual intelligence would be.

Listen, the Bible is not self consistent. I never said anything about it being completely false or anything like that. I said it isn't self consistent. And it's not. There are four different creation stories within the Bible, and none of them are entirely consistent with the others. There are many other contradictions within its pages as well. You can't take it literally without finding severe logical contradictions. If you take it literally, the only reasonable conclusion is that it is a work of fiction.

I also said nothing about "everyone who believes in the Bible is a *****". I said YOU were a *****. I'm sure many people that believe in the Bible would agree with me.

 

[greatnt249]

I do understand the text on which I am basing all of my beliefs on.

You seriously think that everyone who believes in the Bible is a *****? You need a severe reality check. Taking the Bible half-literally would be like you saying Evolution is real, but fish weren't a part of evolution. If you want to take the Bible and say it is completely false, well you cannot do that either because there are proven records of many Biblical writings (things that Sceince said couldn't exist like Hezekiah's tunnel and the axels and wheels found at the bottom of the red sea). To say Jesus never existed is false, because there are records of his existence found in non-biblical texts. To say Jesus was a bad man is silly, because all texts that include him and the general consensus is that he was a good man. However, Jesus claimed he was God, therefore he must have been insane right? How come he is not remembered as someone who was insane?

I honestly could not care any less whether you thought I was a ***** or I was brilliant, and you will probably still feel as though I am a ***** no matter what argument I make because the reality of the situation is that if I had the same view as you, you would assume I was intelligent no matter what my actual intelligence would be.

You fallaciously correlate historical accuracy as being evidence of the Bible's divine nature. Einstein could have concluded his papers on relativity with "and I thank God for literally providing me with visions to determine that the speed of light is constant in all inertial frames"; would that make Einstein's theories the divine inspiration of God and, thus, a religious document to be venerated as infallible?

 

[12345a]

an interesting debate on that topic.....http://www.debate.org/debates/God-and-evolution-cant-both-be-true/1/

 

[oaklandguy]

Believing in God and evolution isn't mutually exclusive. Evolution explains very well how our physical beings came into existence. Faith and religion explain the intangible--how our spiritual selves came into existence, what why we are here (i.e. what is our purpose?)

This is what I believe. You do have a right to believe what you want to (it isn't hurting anybody, and a lot of people believe in the same thing as you). And everybody else has that same right as well.

Personally, I don't see why it matters that much why others have to believe the same thing as me/you/everyone else. Lets just accept that we all have different philosophies in life and that we each have the right to think and believe as we do.

After that, we can all enjoy a beer together.

I understand what you believe. Now, I personally believe that a belief in evolution and a belief in God contradict each other. That is my belief. Now lets have some brew.

 

[oaklandguy]

I agree. But oaklandguy wants to be a scientist while rejecting the philosophy of science. I've got a problem with that. I think he'll probably drift from strict Biblical literalism someday, as many people who deeply study the Bible tend to do. It's just sad to me to see people so deeply entrenched in their religious beliefs that they reject good science.

I reject the theory of evolution, not the philosophy of science. And you do not have to have any certain philosophy or type of epistemology to be a scientist. If people weren't criticizing science and thinking it's wrong, we would still all be studying ALCHEMY. That is my point. I want the progression of science, I want to be able to advance. If you keep thinking in one certain way, you will never advance and science will always remain the same.

My religious beliefs do not contradict science, they contradict evolution.

 

[mrmilad]

You do realize Alchemy lasted sooo much longer than our New Age Science has been around right?

You also must realize that until Albert Einstein, Physics and Math were completely different than they are now right?

If someone else comes around and finds a new discovery Science changes. The Bible doesn't change. I'm gonna stick with the consistent.

Consistency is another name for ignorance of new knowledge and understanding. The reason people believe in a magical being who created everything is because they are too lazy and in some cases too stupid to try to understand and chip away at the mysteries of the universe. The bible is nothing more than a story.

Also the big bang has been given several theories that could explain how it came about (M Theory). And there is no need for time and space to be linear and there is no need for a beginning or an end per say.

Evolution is the discovery that came about as we chip away at trying to understand life. It is utter stupidity for a person educated in science to not understand what religion and god is. Religion and god are ways to bring hope and learning through a reward and punishment system. It is highly effective and useful in our society, but you have see it for what it is.

Lastly if you don't believe in science and how it is "INCONSISTENT" well then I fear to god if you do become a physician. Doctors are scientists as well and it is science that allows you to understand the human body and hopefully help someone else through that knowledge.

It really makes me sad that even on a forum where most of us are in good schools and colleges there still exists illogical and backwards schools of thought.👎

 

[thedoctor8706]

Lol, I'm glad I got out when I did. To much extremism from both sides . Who knows, when I feel like procrastinating more, I'll pop back in!

It's much more fun watching the Bengals pwn the Bears 45-3. 👍

 

[Brent8927]

I understand what you believe. Now, I personally believe that a belief in evolution and a belief in God contradict each other. That is my belief. Now lets have some brew.

Lol, alright, but I'm all the way over in Chicago.

 

[teenmachinery1]

Sarah Palin and OaklandGuy 2012!!!!

 

[rockaction]

I reject the theory of evolution, not the philosophy of science. And you do not have to have any certain philosophy or type of epistemology to be a scientist. If people weren't criticizing science and thinking it's wrong, we would still all be studying ALCHEMY. That is my point. I want the progression of science, I want to be able to advance. If you keep thinking in one certain way, you will never advance and science will always remain the same.

My religious beliefs do not contradict science, they contradict evolution.

Methodological naturalism - the philosophy of science. Look it up. You don't have a healthy respect for it.

If you claim that evolution is wrong, you are claiming that our understanding of the following branches of science are wrong:

Molecular genetics
Biochemistry
Paleontology
Embryology
Comparative anatomy
Genomics

These fields all support evolution unanimously and independently of each other. If you say evolution is wrong, these must be wrong too (logically). Are you willing to make that claim?

 

[Lokhtar]

Oaklandguy: Do you also believe the Earth is 6000 years old?

 

[teenmachinery1]

Oaklandguy: Do you also believe the Earth is 6000 years old?

Oaklandguy is trolling. He's pretending to be tremendously stupid.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Agreed.



As this thread has completely left me since I went out a few hours ago (it's amazing how fast a thread fills up and changes direction), I'm gonna continue my previous debate with rockaction through PM.

Anyone else who wanted to debate can PM me as well. This is fun, and a good mental exercise.

"Do not the unbelievers see that the heaven and the earth were a closed up mass, then we set them asunder and we created every living thing out of water" (21: 30)

"Why should you not strive for reverence to God? He is the One who created you in stages." (71:13-14)

"It is He Who has produced you from the earth and settled you therein" (11:61)

See, you can believe in God and Evolution. Don't know enough about the bible though so....

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Oaklandguy is trolling. He's pretending to be tremendously stupid.

his previous posts and threads lead me to believe otherwise.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Lol, I'm glad I got out when I did. To much extremism from both sides . Who knows, when I feel like procrastinating more, I'll pop back in!

It's much more fun watching the Bengals pwn the Bears 45-3. 👍

AMAZING saints-dolphins game on right now.

 

[teenmachinery1]

I do understand the text on which I am basing all of my beliefs on.

You seriously think that everyone who believes in the Bible is a *****? You need a severe reality check. Taking the Bible half-literally would be like you saying Evolution is real, but fish weren't a part of evolution. If you want to take the Bible and say it is completely false, well you cannot do that either because there are proven records of many Biblical writings (things that Sceince said couldn't exist like Hezekiah's tunnel and the axels and wheels found at the bottom of the red sea). To say Jesus never existed is false, because there are records of his existence found in non-biblical texts. To say Jesus was a bad man is silly, because all texts that include him and the general consensus is that he was a good man. However, Jesus claimed he was God, therefore he must have been insane right? How come he is not remembered as someone who was insane?

I honestly could not care any less whether you thought I was a ***** or I was brilliant, and you will probably still feel as though I am a ***** no matter what argument I make because the reality of the situation is that if I had the same view as you, you would assume I was intelligent no matter what my actual intelligence would be.

Why does "science" say Hezekiah's tunnel couldn't exist? It's just a tunnel that moved water downhill..

And as for the axes and wheels found at the bottom of the red sea... You should've mentioned Ron Wyatt's other discoveries which include:

Noah's ark, the Biblical Ark of the Covenant, the actual location of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Tower of Babel, the actual site of Mt. Sinai, the real site of the crucifixion of Jeebus, and the original stones of the Ten Commandments.

I think you'd be on much more solid ground if you mentioned these more meaningful discoveries. Besides, one isn't too hard-pressed to think of other reasons why wheels and bones might be at the bottom of a sea by EGYPT.

 

[oaklandguy]

Oaklandguy is trolling. He's pretending to be tremendously stupid.

I actually am a tremendously stupid troll...

No, I do not believe the earth is 6,000 years old. My personal belief is that there are at least a million years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I believe that God created a fully functional earth, then when Satan fell he came to earth and destroyed everything. Then the seven days of creation are actually the seven days of re-creation. I also believe God could have created the earth as an "adult" earth, the way he created Adam as a fully functional adult male.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I actually am a tremendously stupid troll...

No, I do not believe the earth is 6,000 years old. My personal belief is that there are at least a million years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I believe that God created a fully functional earth, then when Satan fell he came to earth and destroyed everything. Then the seven days of creation are actually the seven days of re-creation. I also believe God could have created the earth as an "adult" earth, the way he created Adam as a fully functional adult male.

wow. this one goes to 11.

 

[scotsdoc54]

"Do not the unbelievers see that the heaven and the earth were a closed up mass, then we set them asunder and we created every living thing out of water" (21: 30)

"Why should you not strive for reverence to God? He is the One who created you in stages." (71:13-14)

"It is He Who has produced you from the earth and settled you therein" (11:61)

See, you can believe in God and Evolution. Don't know enough about the bible though so....

What books of the Bible are those from Lucius? I'd be interested to read them in context.

 

[scotsdoc54]

Methodological naturalism - the philosophy of science. Look it up. You don't have a healthy respect for it.

If you claim that evolution is wrong, you are claiming that our understanding of the following branches of science are wrong:

Molecular genetics
Biochemistry
Paleontology
Embryology
Comparative anatomy
Genomics

These fields all support evolution unanimously and independently of each other. If you say evolution is wrong, these must be wrong too (logically). Are you willing to make that claim?

Just to play Devil's Advocate ( I agree with you rockaction), but which methodology and which philosophy of science? There is some disagreement about what constitutes the correct methodology of science (classical view, Popper's falsification method, positivism, etc.)

 

[SunDevilDoc]

Haha Satan destroyed everything.

Anyway, there are no records from any non-biblical historical sources that jesus ever existed. He probably would have been big news. The bible was written by Constantine 300 years after he claimed that jesus existed.
This movie is pretty good: www.zeitgeistmovie.com
Evolution is proven, get over it.

 

[oaklandguy]

AMAZING saints-dolphins game on right now.

Lions on bye week, thank God.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Lions on bye week, thank God.

much sympathies.

 

[Grand]

Who programmed DNA?

 

[oaklandguy]

Haha Satan destroyed everything.

Anyway, there are no records from any non-biblical historical sources that jesus ever existed. He probably would have been big news. The bible was written by Constantine 300 years after he claimed that jesus existed.
This movie is pretty good: www.zeitgeistmovie.com
Evolution is proven, get over it.

Islamic references are non-biblical are they not? And the Old Testament was not and could not have been written by Constantine. Constantine did destroy a lot of Biblical principles however, he initiated Christmas and he was the first Pope ever recorded at least.

And Evolution is not proven... There are many things that would point to it. But again, at one point people were saying Alchemy is proven, get over it.

 

[Lokhtar]

And why did he leave all that useless crap like gills and tails in our DNA? Not to mention all that junk DNA?

 

[Lokhtar]

Islamic references are non-biblical are they not? And the Old Testament was not and could not have been written by Constantine. Constantine did destroy a lot of Biblical principles however, he initiated Christmas and he was the first Pope ever recorded at least.

And Evolution is not proven... There are many things that would point to it. But again, at one point people were saying Alchemy is proven, get over it.

No, they weren't - there was no modern usage of the scientific methods back then. Evolution is proven like thermodynamics is proven.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Islamic references are non-biblical are they not? And the Old Testament was not and could not have been written by Constantine. Constantine did destroy a lot of Biblical principles however, he initiated Christmas and he was the first Pope ever recorded at least.

And Evolution is not proven... There are many things that would point to it. But again, at one point people were saying Alchemy is proven, get over it.

islamic texts are not contemporary references. it's like saying elijah existed because the new testament reference to him.

 

[teenmachinery1]

*cough* (at my comment @407pm).

 

[thedoctor8706]

AMAZING saints-dolphins game on right now.

yea seriously! they finally switched to it in my region... I'm surprised the dolphins have been able to hang with the saints this far into the game

 

[greatnt249]

Haha Satan destroyed everything.

Anyway, there are no records from any non-biblical historical sources that jesus ever existed. He probably would have been big news. The bible was written by Constantine 300 years after he claimed that jesus existed.
This movie is pretty good: www.zeitgeistmovie.com
Evolution is proven, get over it.

The Bible was not written by Constantine.

 

[thedoctor8706]

I actually am a tremendously stupid troll...

No, I do not believe the earth is 6,000 years old. My personal belief is that there are at least a million years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I believe that God created a fully functional earth, then when Satan fell he came to earth and destroyed everything. Then the seven days of creation are actually the seven days of re-creation. I also believe God could have created the earth as an "adult" earth, the way he created Adam as a fully functional adult male.

hmmmm interesting. i've actually never heard of this idea before... forgive my ignorance but is this a real theory?

 

[oaklandguy]

much sympathies.

Greatly appreciated.

 

[oaklandguy]

hmmmm interesting. i've actually never heard of this idea before...

I believe it's called Gap Theory.

The verses that mention the Devil being sent down from heaven and destroying the earth are in either 1st or 2nd Peter. Not sure exactly where I'll have to look it up.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

yea seriously! they finally switched to it in my region... I'm surprised the dolphins have been able to hang with the saints this far into the game

you didn't get the recap yet i'm assuming, but the dolphins were KILLING the saints in the first half, then the floodgates just broke loose.

 

[Tatastrophy]

Evolution is like Alchemy.

Give it a couple hundred years and every scientist will change their minds (just to give give some new explanation for why there isn't a God.)

if you distrust anything that science tells you this much...why are you even pre-med?

 

[scotsdoc54]

Haha Satan destroyed everything.

Anyway, there are no records from any non-biblical historical sources that jesus ever existed. He probably would have been big news. The bible was written by Constantine 300 years after he claimed that jesus existed.
This movie is pretty good: www.zeitgeistmovie.com
Evolution is proven, get over it.

The Roman historian Titus Flavius Josephus mentioned Jesus specifically in his history called The Antiquities of the Jews.

And Oaklandguy, Constantine was not the first pope. Peter the Apostle was.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

What books of the Bible are those from Lucius? I'd be interested to read them in context.

They're from the Quran not the Bible
forgot to say 😀

 

[oaklandguy]

if you distrust anything that science tells you this much...why are you even pre-med?

I do not completely distrust Science. That being said, I do not fully agree with everything "Science". I don't believe in evolution. That is all. I am pre-med because I plan on becoming a practicing physician.

 

[teenmachinery1]

Oakland, i think i made a previous comment you made earlier look pretty silly @407pm (scroll up). Did you skip it?

I'm just feeling a little ignored that's all 🙁